'nother question on body positioning

[1moreroad]

Pulled off Motorcycle Daily.  The rider's head is directly above the gas cap, but his hips are shifted towards the inside of the corner.  It's a street picture so I'll assume he's not trying to hang off radically.  Is this good body position?  Bad body position?  Crossed up?  Not bad but not really effective because the upper body is "neutral" (inline with the bike)?

Same question about the pic below.  Similar position -- head over gas cap and lower body shifted to the inside of the corner, but more extreme.  Sitting somewhat tall on the bike.

[garry]

My mantra this year is:

Lead with the head and the ass will follow

[Mr Sunshine]

In both of them the riders are crossed up and pushing the bike down.  Bad body position whether you are on the street or the track.  Now there are times when you will see a rider crossed up or pushing the bike down and it works due to the situation.

For example: http://studio819.smugmug.com/gallery/2987939#162072942

In this case the rider has just come out of a left hand turn, needs to make a small right hand kink and then back into a left hand turn.  There is no reason to transition from each side of the bike to do this (it is actually slower and upsets the bike too much).  The photo is shot in the middle of the right hand kink.

[1moreroad]

My mantra this year is:

Lead with the head and the ass will follow

Agreed, but I've thought I'm leading with the head only to see pix afterwards showing a different story.

[scott-sts]

Well, this may make your head explode but I don't think there really is "Bad body position".  Sure, when taken to the extreme such a thing exists but 99% of the time, body position does not impact how the motorcycle reacts or "Handles" at all.  IMO, the body position in the above pics works for the rider, so whats "Bad" about it?
Doug Polen and Schwantz liked to sit up and lock their arms straight when cornering.  Bad?  You tell them, I ain't!  Rainey, Mladin and Doohan like to tuck through corners.  Coppying Spies riding position looks like an exercise in futility, yet he's pretty fast on a motorcycle i've heard.  DuHamel Twists his spine into the corner, Bayliss drags his foot through the corner and Rossi likes to take his foot off the pegs (and look straight down at the track) when cornering.  Bad??  Again, you tell them.

Bottom line is body position won't cause you to crash, or lose control, or be "Slow".  

     

[R Doug]

My mantra this year is:

Lead with the head and the ass will follow

+1

I have found that the movement of the head and shoulders and butt planted on the seat are more than enough for me on the roads (99% of the time, anyhow    ).  While on the track, I'm practicing hanging off with the head leading the way.

[Mr Sunshine]

Bottom line is body position won't cause you to crash, or lose control, or be "Slow".      

yes it can cause all of those.  slow because you are unable to maintain corner speed due to the lack of ground clearance needed as your bike is leaned way over because you are pushing it over.  slow to recover from the tires slidding or what nto.

body position matters....but I do agree that everyone doesn't have to have the exact same body position.

[scott-sts]

yes it can cause all of those.  slow because you are unable to maintain corner speed due to the lack of ground clearance needed as your bike is leaned way over because you are pushing it over.  slow to recover from the tires slidding or what nto.

body position matters....but I do agree that everyone doesn't have to have the exact same body position.

Ah, so when you are leaned over dragging pegs, body panels and your exhaust pipe, "Correct" body position will change this, huh?
You just love to argue.
Look at the pictures you commented on.  You're telling me that dude is giving up corner speed because of his body position?  

[Mr Sunshine]

Ah, so when you are leaned over dragging pegs, body panels and your exhaust pipe, "Correct" body position will change this, huh?
You just love to argue.
Look at the pictures you commented on.  You're telling me that dude is giving up corner speed because of his body position?  

I didn't provide the original pictures.

And yes body position stops me from dragging my right exhaust and fairing through turn 3 at Pacific Raceways.  If I am lazy and don't hang off alot then it drags.  If I do it right then it doesn't drag.

Also the point of body position is to give you more lateral g's before you have to start dragging pegs, body panels and exhaust pipes.  

[kam]

Agreed ...the pictured rider is doing the "anti-lean".  He could carry the same corner speed /w less lean angle if his body was to the inside of the bikes centerline.

[Mookie]

Agreed ...the pictured rider is doing the "anti-lean".  He could carry the same corner speed /w less lean angle if his body was to the inside of the bikes centerline.

Except that he's on the street and is nowhere near maximum lean angle on a bike that's near impossible to drag parts on.  Also, since this is on the road, having his head towards the center will give him a better view of the upcoming road and any obstacles or turns further up.

[dinolee]

Ah, so when you are leaned over dragging pegs, body panels and your exhaust pipe, "Correct" body position will change this, huh?
You just love to argue.
Look at the pictures you commented on.  You're telling me that dude is giving up corner speed because of his body position?  

Crap, here we go again...  

Yes, body position does have an affect on corner speed.  Specifically moving the center of gravity of the rider left/right  They teach it at Freddie Spencers.

[Windblown]

Tough to tell from static pics and not knowing what is in front of the rider, but....

It looks like the first guy has basically negated most of his weight shift down low by having his upper body past the plane of the center of the bike to the opposite side.  The 2nd pic the rider is still putting his weight to the inside.  Does weight shift matter? Only if the pace demands it.  

If you look at the front runners in Motogp, AMA, etc, you'll see lots of variance in style. Some of the variance is due to the corner being taken, some of which is just variances in style.  Regardless, they are all madmen who would dust anyone here even if they were ridng a Moped.  

I've been playing around a bunch with various styles lately on the DS when riding the twisties since the effect of even small changes in style can be felt quite easily on the bike.  So far my findings are that for a spirited street pace any style that gets some weight shifted to the inside while being able to maintain neutral pressure on the bars works fine. Head first, butt first, whichever.

[Mr Sunshine]

Except that he's on the street and is nowhere near maximum lean angle on a bike that's near impossible to drag parts on.  Also, since this is on the road, having his head towards the center will give him a better view of the upcoming road and any obstacles or turns further up.

If his head was to the side of the bike his visibility would be the same too.

[Mookie]

If his head was to the side of the bike his visibility would be the same too.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say there but...

When you are going around a corner, putting your head closer to the inside of said turn decreases your viewing angle of the upcoming road.  

[Mr Sunshine]

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say there but...

When you are going around a corner, putting your head closer to the inside of said turn decreases your viewing angle of the upcoming road.  

that extra 6" effectly doesn't do anything to your visiblity...but you are right on the strict technical point.

[Mookie]

that extra 6" effectly doesn't do anything to your visiblity...but you are right on the strict technical point.

That " 6" "  can equate to many feet of advanced warning on something like a tight on ramp where walls are blocking your views.

[scott-sts]

So in the first pic, the dude would have less lean angle (looks to me like he hardly has any to begin with) if he was positioned "Correctly" which means hanging off?
Yet in the second pic, he's hanging off (showing good form, might I add) and his knee is 2 feet off the deck and the bike is again, hardly leaned over.
Alot of good hanging off did him.
I stand by my original post.

[R Doug]

I'm not a racer, so I'm not so concerned about corner speed with proper body position.  

BUT, I am very concerned about using lean angle I don't need to for a certain corner.  I like to provide myself with a lean angle reserve as Lee Parks would put it.  If I'm mid corner, and need to make a correction to avoid something, I want the ability to lean the bike over more.  So, IMHO, the guy in the first picture is compromising lean angle w/ his poor body position.  

[Mookie]

I'm not a racer, so I'm not so concerned about corner speed with proper body position.  

BUT, I am very concerned about using lean angle I don't need to for a certain corner.  I like to provide myself with a lean angle reserve as Lee Parks would put it.  If I'm mid corner, and need to make a correction to avoid something, I want the ability to lean the bike over more.  So, IMHO, the guy in the first picture is compromising lean angle w/ his poor body position.  

I agree with what you've said, except for the minor point being that the guy in that picture still has about 75% more lean angle available to him if he wanted to use it, even with his current body position.