Ride-Chicago SRTT Class - June 24 2007 *now with writeup

[KokomoSam]

Hello all,

I just wanted to let you everyone know I have decided to take the SRTT class this weekend.  From what everyone else has said it is a good class and I am looking forward to it.  If anyone is interested there are still 2 spots open....

http://www.ride-chicago.com/courselisting.aspx?m=6&y=2007

I got this in the mail from ride-Chicago as a reminder.

Hello Samuel,

This is a just a reminder and clarification email for this weekends class.
Thanks for joining us for our exclusive SRTT Advanced Training.
There is no classroom with this course, just pure riding time on Sunday Morning from 9 - 3.
Take a look at the information below, and we’ll see you there!
9AM to 3PM, Sunday June 24th

SRTT Advanced Training
At: Maywood Park
8600 W. North Avenue
Melrose Park, IL 60160

Look for us in the lot across the street from the main Maywood Park lot, (on the South Side of North AVE, just West of 1rst Ave).
There will be no trailer or signage, just look for Don's yellow Yamaha FZ-1 and the other Riders.
Make sure you have a full tank of gas when you roll up.
Make sure that you wear your gear.  Helmet, gloves, boots and jacket are de rigueur.  Pants are recommended.
Make sure your brakes and tires are in good shape.
We generally start right at nine; so try and arrive fifteen minutes early.
Last tip, you might take some Aleve etc. before you come out, it’s a good work out!


You guys that have taken it... should I bring plenty of Aleve or Advil?  Is it that much of a work out?

[Capirex]

You guys that have taken it... should I bring plenty of Aleve or Advil?  Is it that much of a work out?

Hey Sam.  I never had a problem the day of the class but was definitely sore for a day or two afterwards.  I can't make it Sunday but Ill most likely be back for my third go arround next spring.  Have fun!  

[KokomoSam]

Hey All,

Well I just got back from the SRTT and I had a blast.    I think it was a good class and I would do it again.  Don Helle taught it himself and he really seems to know what he is talking about.

However,  his teachings and the SRTT philosophy does challenge many of my previous riding assumptions.  When I get time tonight I will try to write up a more detailed report.

Later

Sam

[Capirex]

Looking forward to the write up.  

[KokomoSam]

Hello all!  

Sorry for the delay and the LONG report.  I hope this gives everyone considering the class a better look into what it is.


General / Repeat Stuff
Street Rider Technical Training
From the Web Site:
"SRTT originated in Japan and the goal to learn to ride “with” the motorcycle and not “on " the motorcycle.
Any style bike applies, Sport bikes, Harleys, Touring bikes, all of them can benefit from this type of riding style
SRTT has no classroom time, or writing around in lines, only pure riding time. This will give you the confidence to ride anywhere, in any weather, in total balance and control.
You will ride more smoothly and more confidently than you ever have before. During the class, you can push yourself going anywhere up to 75 mph on the SRTT course!"

Class:
I am always curious to see what kind of bikes show up to classes like these.  The total number of bikes was 11 I think.   The largest contingent was cruisers (both metric and harley),  but the second largest was even more surprising to me... there were 4 naked ducatis.  The rest consisted of two Japanese sport bikes and me on my Bandit.  


Introduction
Don did the introduction and helped clear up how someone in Chicago ended up teaching a class from Japan.  It turns out he spent some time with the U.S. Motorcycle Military Police in Japan and he was teaching MSF classes there.   As part of an exchange program, he went to the Japanese Motorcycle Training class. Where he found out that they were teaching much more advanced techniques then the MSF classes he had been teaching.  This was the SRTT.   He eventually became an SRTT instructor and when he came back to the states he continued to teach it. Or at least that is the summary from what I can remember.  I invited Don and his assistants to check out Sport-Touring.net, so maybe they will come along and correct or clarify this later.

Braking Exercise (braking flame war begin)
The first exercise was braking and led to my assumptions about braking being challenged.  The SRTT teaches to use the front brake, rear brake and the engine all at once to get maximum braking power. This goes against what I have heard and come to practice in braking.  I have been operating under the school of thought that the best way to brake is clutch in, don't touch the rear brake and 2 fingers on the front brake lever only.  This thought is part MSF and part wisdom from fellow rides and some reading I  have done.  I was a little perplexed, but I wanted to see where this was going so I kept my mouth shut for this first exercise.   He had each student one at a time ride towards him at a comfortable to us speed.  He would then hand signal for us to stop and he evaluated what are braking skills were.  It was hard for me not to grab the clutch and to use my rear brake.  I had gotten out of the habit of using my rear brake in all but niche situations.  I guess I did ok, as Don didn't have too much correction to give me.  After he had seen the whole class do this a couple of times, he stopped the exercise and pulled us all together to talk it over.  During this discussion about braking, I started to ask more questions about the differences in breaking from what I view as the common belief about breaking and what he is teaching in this class.  For everything questions I raised he seemed to have a ready answer. The most important line of questioning, at least to me,  was around the risk of locking the rear tire up. I won't go through the whole conversation here, but let me sum up his response by saying that keeping the tire connected to the engine (engine braking) will force the tire to keep moving a little bit and keep the rear tire from locking up.  (of course this only works if the engine doesn't stall.. more on that later)  Again, I am hoping that Don will stop by our friendly little region 4 web site and clarify any points I might not have right.

I am guessing that this isn't the first time that someone has challenged him on this technique.  I couldn't seem to find a way to stump him on the spot regarding his technique,  but I this seemed so fundamental that I didn't want to let it go.  After I had been asking questions for a while, he asked if I would help with a demo.  I said yes.  What followed next was an interesting experiment.  He asked me to re-do the braking exercise.  Only this time to try the different techniques of braking.  

So I did 4 runs trying to brake with different methods.  Keeping the bike in first gear I ran it up to a steady 25-30 mph and tried to start braking at the same line.  As I did this Don marked my stopping point with each method as the class watched on.  What he asked me to do was this..

• Rear brake only with clutch lever in
• Front brake only with clutch lever in
• Front and rear brake with clutch lever in
• Front and reat brake with clutch lever out(ie with engine braking)

I really did my best to give this a fair shot.  I tried to the best of my ability to get the same speed and braking point for each run.  

As you would guess, the "rear brake only" was very long and involved a skidding rear tire and a bit of excitement..  The front brake only was easily half the distance or less then the rear only.  Using the front and rear brake with the clutch lever in, was shorter then the front only again as you would expect.  While using the front and rear brake with no engine braking, I managed not to skid the rear, but for me, full braking with the clutch in it seems really hard to brake hard on the rear with out locking it up. This issue was one of the things that helped move me to the "front brake only" school of thought.  Finally, I tried it the SRTT way.  I got the bike up to speed and at the appointed line I applied both brakes, but left the clutch lever alone. As the bike came to a stop, I pulled in the clutch lever to keep the bike from dying.  The result to me was surprising, I had stopped a good 4 to 5 feet shorter using both brakes and full engine braking.  However, there was one thing that I noticed about using this technique, there is a sound that I can't clearly explain.  There seemed to be a bit of a "clacking" sound that came out of the rear of the bike during this test.  Previously, I had noticed that when Don ran the course as a demo, I could hear a similar but louder noise coming from his bike (FZ1) when he was braking.  I asked him what this was and I can't recall the exact words, but it was related to the chain and engine braking.  

So I have some real life data that says the fastest way to stop a motorcycle is the one the SRTT is teaching. I still have concerns about locking up the rear wheel and the odd sounds that this technique involves, but I will have to re-evaluate my braking techniques.  Still after having said all that it was a very challenging experience and if nothing else all the practice and focus on braking probably makes me a better rider.

Riding the "autocross" course:
The rest of the day at SRTT was spent riding around a kind of mini road course laid out in cones and chalk marks in the parking log.   This was very much like an autocross course, but with more tight spots. The course included slaloms, straights(50 to 75 mph), sweepers, hairpin turns, corners and turn around's of all types.   They broke up the course into sections and had us ride through a section at a time to introduce us to the course following Don on his FZ1.  With each section new riding skills were introduced and discussed.  In general the more important new skills that were introduced after straight line braking were using your legs for major steering input and trail braking.  I can't relate here all the techniques taught, but I want to cover at least what I thought were the major points.

Steering with your legs was less of a challenge to my assumptions then the braking but still wasn't exactly what I had learned in the past.  The technique taught in the SRTT emphasized the legs for big movements and  stressed the arms (i.e. counter-steering) should be used for small adjustments only.  This goes against my general belief that the only way to turn a motorcycle is to counter-steer. Closely related to this was holding on to the tank with your legs.  This part of the class is what can really make your legs sore.  Anyway, as the course went on I started to believe that using your legs does have an impact on controlling the bike, more so then I had thought.  At the end of the class he did a demo where he rides the bike around in a circle with no hands, however, he never demoed changing directions with no hands.  In the end, I am coming to believe that legs and body have an important role, to play in steering a motorcycle, but I still haven't seen anything that makes counter-steering not the only way to start the turn.  It seems to be that your body weight can help the bike transition faster, but if you don't start with the handlebars i am not sure if it will work.  This of course is just my $.02

The other 'new-to-me' skill at SRTT was trail braking.  As a demonstration they set up a single corner with chalk lines to show when to brake with front and rear and when to trail brake too.  The sequence being both brakes, front brake off, throttle on, rear brake off.  As I mentioned earlier, I had not been using my rear brake for some time and had put off by the idea of trail braking as a more racing related skill.  However, this is a skill that I am sure I will take away from this class and use.  Trial braking seemed to really settle the bike and ease the off throttle/on throttle transition.

After the course and skills were introduced Don and his assistants lead the class through the whole course stopping every few laps for comments and discussion.  Also, this started a real fun part of the class.   In order to get each person used to what we should be doing on the course, Don would take us for a ride on the back of his bike.  This is where holding on with your legs really gets challenged.  Don can ride the hell out of that course and I am sure he was taking it easy on us.  He was telling us that he wanted us to use our legs from the back of the bike to steer the bike.  I seemed to have some impact on transitions even from the back of the bike.  This was very noticeable on the slalom.  The one upside/downside of my ride with Don was to point out it me that I wasn't holding on with my legs nearly tight enough.  It is 2 days out from the class and I have sore muscles in places in my legs I didn't know I had muscles.  I need to buy a thigh-master or something.   DOH!   During part of the ride with Don, when I was hanging on for dear life, I got a cramp in some small muscle at the top of my leg near my crotch...  this is not a muscle a man should be working out seated that close to another man!   LOL   All kidding aside, the ride with Don is almost worth the cost of the class alone.

So introductions done, course learned,  we were given instructions to ride the course and try out our new skills.  For all of the morning and most of the afternoon we were instructed to run the course in 1st gear only.   This worked very well for me since first gear on a 1200cc bike geared like the bandit is very flexible.  The only time that I would have normally shifted was in the back straight where there was enough room to rev the engine near redline in first gear.  

After we had been running the course for awhile in first gear.  We were then instructed to run the course for 3 laps using only second gear and never touching the clutch.  I think the purpose was to teach us to have more flowing lines and to get back on the throttle earlier.  I must admit I had some issues with this. The trick to using second gear in during the tighter stuff is to trail brake through part of it with the throttle held open to keep the engine from dying.  This ended up being harder for me then I thought.   As i was going through a tight corner (but not the tightest) on my first lap this way, my bike stalled.  I was leaned over, trail braking the rear and try to keep just enough throttle to keep the engine from dying....   well I miscalculated.  Mid corner at full lean, the bike stalled and then stopped instantly.  I ended up just jumping off and away to keep it from landing on me.  I was un-hurt and the only damage to the bike was the right turn signal. ( I really need to get a recessed turn signal).  I suffered humiliation and embarrassment, but nothing more.  One of  my class mates came over and helped me get my bike up.  Don and one of the assistants rode over to check on me.  I was able to remount and continue the class minus the right turn signal.  

After I was able to complete the last 2 laps of 2nd gear only without incident, were were brought in and told to try the course again for 3 laps using only our right hands as control.  After my mishap on the previous exercise, I must say I was still a little unsettled, so when I started this exercise, I put both hands on the handle bar during any slow tight stufft the first lap.  As I regained my confidence, I rode the whole course with just one hand and found that it was much easier then trying to ride in second gear.  One handed riding felt much safer then I thought it would.  It also really helps to drive home the skills that were taught.  Using your legs, trial braking, braking technique, etc..  By the third lap this way I was getting very comfortable with riding one handed.

After this the main part of the class was over, Don covered a couple of tricks on U-turns and other stuff and the class was over.

Conclusion
First let me say that I liked this class and will probably take it again.  I thought Don and his staff were professional and made the whole experience fun.  More importantly, I think that it made me a better rider.

However, there are some things to consider.  Before I took this class, I was concerned about using my own bike to learn new skills and push my riding envelope. My concern was great enough that I had decided that i would not push my self  very hard for this class.  I would learn, but be safe....  well I wasn't able to pull that off.  Once in the class, I was having fun and really tried to push my new skills and go faster.  My fear of dropping my bike came true.  Now for anyone else considering the class having similar thoughts, let me say that I felt no pressure from the staff to push my self.  In fact, the class was told several times not to try to impress anyone and ride to you speed / level.  If I felt uncomfortable, there was no one pushing me to do something I was uncomfortable with.  At any time I could of slowed down, down shift, blow past cones with out going around or whatever I felt I needed to do to be safe.   Dropping my bike came from pushing myself, learning and trying to implement a new skill and a miscalculation.   The corner that I had my problem was not the tightest/slowest as I have already said and the solution for making that turn safely was actually to go faster..  Why I had the problem there is hard to say, but I don't blame the class or staff.  I made a mistake practicing a new skill.  It happens.  In fact i was not the only person to drop their bike during this exercise.  I am not sure the total number of problems, but I know of one other person that dropped there bike for sure and I was later told that one of the cruiser guys had dropped his bike earlier in the day.  Of the 3 drops my bike took the worst damage at a turn signal.  All happened at slow speed parts of the course. The only way I think that some one could really get in trouble on the course is washing out the front by braking too hard after a faster section.  However, if we were totally risk adverse we wouldn't ride motorcycles.

Summary:  Great Class, challenged my skills and made me a better rider!

[keeptryn]

hey, thanks for the write up.  Class sounds interesting and worthwhile.

[Capirex]

Hey Sam.
Great report.    Just wanted to address a few of your comments.

There seemed to be a bit of a "clacking" sound that came out of the rear of the bike during this test.  Previously, I had noticed that when Don ran the course as a demo, I could hear a similar but louder noise coming from his bike (FZ1) when he was braking.  I asked him what this was and I can't recall the exact words, but it was related to the chain and engine braking.

I'm not sure what the terminolgy is but what I believe you are describing is the chain clacking as a result of the engine pulling against the resistance of your rear wheel slowing.  By not pulling in the clutch,the engine is slowing the bike (engine braking).  As the engine speed matches and eventually exceeds the road speed it will continue to apply force on your rear wheel preventing it from locking.  Engaging the clutch frees up the rear wheel allowing a possible lock up.
 

This goes against my general belief that the only way to turn a motorcycle is to counter-steer.

I think that by applying the proper pressure with your legs the effect on the motorcycle is the same as counter steering with your arms.  Applying pressure with your right leg on the tank will actually move your wheel/handle bars to the right.  When I questioned the technique I was told that it was to be used in addition to counter steering.    
That being said, next time I go to the class I will challenge Don to take on the slalom no handed.  If he can't do it, I may change my mind.

Sorry you dropped the bike, that is never fun.  Glad to hear the damage was minimal.  I never had to attempt the course in second gear.  It was never even mentioned in either of the two SRTT classes I took and quite frankly it kind of puzzles me.  I'm not sure what skill you were supposed to be learning by doing that.

Thanks for taking the time to do such a complete write up.  
Sounds like you had a good time and would go back.  I definitely plan on going again next spring - maybe we can start an STN SRTT meet.

[KokomoSam]

I'm not sure what the terminolgy is but what I believe you are describing is the chain clacking as a result of the engine pulling against the resistance of your rear wheel slowing.  

 

I guess I kind of understand that.  My concern is this "clacking" wearing any drivetrain/engine part more then not using this technique.  This is such an unusal sound to me, it would seem to be something out of the ordinary and thus possibly causing unusual wear.   What do you think?

That being said, next time I go to the class I will challenge Don to take on the slalom no handed.  If he can't do it, I may change my mind.

That is a good thought.  Seeing some one change direction purposfully using only thier body/legs would really prove that counter-steering is NOT the only way to turn a bike.  I personally don't think it can be done, especially at speed.  Until I see diffrent, I will hold by my theroy that couter steer turns a bike and body/legs help speed the transition.

 I never had to attempt the course in second gear.  It was never even mentioned in either of the two SRTT classes I took and quite frankly it kind of puzzles me.  I'm not sure what skill you were supposed to be learning by doing that.

Wow.  I had never thought of that.  I assumed that everyone would do the same things at each class.  Was there anything else that was diffrent between what I described and what you have done?

Thanks for taking the time to do such a complete write up.  

Thanks!  I spent way more time then I orgianally planned doing this write-up / review.  The class really got me thinking about my riding technique and I think that is why I was able to spend the time writing it.  I was still kind of thinking through the whole thing and using the write-up as tool to clarify my own thoughts.  I am gratified that others find it worth reading.

I am really hoping that Don or one of his assitants will drop by and give thier input as well.  Also, one of the assitants took pictures during the last part of the day.  I am hoping to get copies of those to add to this thread as well.

[Fourstring]

Cool write up!

I need to seriously consider taking SRTT in the near future.
Where do they do the class?  I can't be in that dinky parking lot across from the All State Arena.

[KokomoSam]

Where do they do the class?  I can't be in that dinky parking lot across from the All State Arena.

It was in one of the remote parking lots of Maywood Park.  http://www.maywoodpark.com/

The real bonus of this for me is that it is only about 8 miles from where I live.  :-)   So, at least it is easy to get too.


Sam

[bomber]

great write-up! while I read nothing that was new to me, you've convinced me to take the class -- always old (bad) habits to unlearn, existing skills to hone, and new ones to learn

thanks, again -- I owe you a frosty beverage!

[Capirex]

I guess I kind of understand that.  My concern is this "clacking" wearing any drivetrain/engine part more then not using this technique.  This is such an unusal sound to me, it would seem to be something out of the ordinary and thus possibly causing unusual wear.   What do you think?

I don't know if this causes any excessive wear but I don't think that it should get to that point under normal circumstances.  It should really only happen during low speed maneuvering when engaging the rear brake (like those low speed turns on the SRTT course) and emergency braking.  Even during emergency braking in most cases you should be able to pull in the clutch before it happens.

Was there anything else that was diffrent between what I described and what you have done?

Nope just that 2nd gear thing.  It really makes no sense to me, especially considering the wide range of bikes present and the obvious differences in how they are geared.

[KokomoSam]

great write-up! while I read nothing that was new to me, you've convinced me to take the class -- always old (bad) habits to unlearn, existing skills to hone, and new ones to learn

thanks, again -- I owe you a frosty beverage!

I am glad you found the write up useful.  You don't have to buy me a frosty beverage....  but then again...  It's not like I would turn one down!  

If you take the class I look forward to hearing what you think.

Sam

[Capirex]

I am really hoping that Don or one of his assitants will drop by and give thier input as well.

I just wanted to add that the comments I made above are merely my opinion after having taken the class twice.  I really have no clue what I'm talking about.  It would be great if Don would stop by here and straighten out some of our assumptions.

[KokomoSam]

 

I just wanted to add that the comments I made above are merely my opinion after having taken the class twice.  I really have no clue what I'm talking about.  It would be great if Don would stop by here and straighten out some of our assumptions.

Yep.  I hope Don, Sandy or Fred stop by.  Sandy also took some pictures of the class that she said she would email out.  Did you get pictures from the staff or did you have someone else take the pictures?

[Capirex]

Pictures were taken by the staff and emailed to me from Ride Chicago.  

[SRTTguy]

Man!!!!   I'm having some bad luck!  Sorry it's taken me so long to join the fray... I replaced my PC hard drive this week (not my best area of expertise).  Then I joined this fine group and wrote a novel answering the questions posted... freak'n computer froze and didn't save anything that I wrote so... I'm going to keep this one brief and answer in small bites.  Let's just test this to see if it will work?

[KokomoSam]

Man!!!!   I'm having some bad luck!  Sorry it's taken me so long to join the fray... I replaced my PC hard drive this week (not my best area of expertise).  Then I joined this fine group and wrote a novel answering the questions posted... freak'n computer froze and didn't save anything that I wrote so... I'm going to keep this one brief and answer in small bites.  Let's just test this to see if it will work?

Don,

It does sound like you are having a bad computer week!  

I am glad you found your way here.  I can't wait to read the novel you wrote...  even if it comes in smaller chunks.    I am sure I am not the only one that appreciates you answering our questions here, so thanks in advance.

Regardless, welcome to ST.n!

Sam

[SRTTguy]

Alright... test "SAT".  First let me say that it appears you've got quite the group here... very nice and well rounded group of riders.  I really enjoyed KokomoSam's review (Great Write Up)... hey how do those legs feel?  Now you understand why we stretch in the morning  
I'll try NOT to write another novel... but once I get started... we'll have to see.  Let's start with the "Clatter".

Clatter - the noise you heard "clatter" was from (almost) getting the braking right.  I did it a few times (mostly in the morning run when I was warming up) was from not applying the rear brake at the same "tempo" of squeezing the front brake.  I generally ride the course pretty quick to loosen up myself, my speeds between 20mph ~ 70 mph.  When you heard the "clatter" I had applied pressure quicker to the rear than I was applying to the front.  Under braking (even SRTT Style) the natural reaction of the motorcycle is for the weight (inertia) to move forward [obvisouly].  The front tire compresses under the weight transfer, the front suspension loads as well.  {Think of "psi" if I had applied 3psi of front braking force... increasing to 6psi while the rear started at 5psi and maintained steady}  It would not allow for the rear suspension to travel, the rear brake appled in that manner would have "locked" the rear suspension while it wanted to unload (remember the countershaft sprocket and front brake has everything moving forward) and I had applied too much rear brake (basically) locking the rear suspension... this caused the rear tire to "hop" making that chattering noise.  In fact... if you were behind me when I did that... you would of seen a dotted line of a tire skiff.  Again I'd like to emphasize that was incorrect... I was warming up.  When it happens to you simply realize that you had applied too much pressure to the rear (faster) than you had applied to the front.  When that happens... you could either release the pressure gradually until you've matched the pressure in the front or just release the rear brake completely and reapply.  

Natural Steering - We (SRTT - Japanese Inst) teach that your hands compliment your legs - hips - feet.  Most motorcycles are pretty darn heavy... and unfortunately most American schools teach counter-steering solely.  So we're counter-steering these 600lbs (plus) motorcycles with one of our smaller muscle groups.  
In SRTT we teach natural steering... first I demonstrate that your motorcycle will not crash be itself, at full lean (dragging peg feelers) your motorcycles wants to straighten up.  KokomoSam... remember how the bars came back to straight after being at full lock?  So with no outside influence the motorcycle wants to straight up naturally... now if I apply an outside influence (pressure on the grip) I can over come the natural desire and geometry of the motorcycle.
Then after demonstraiting proper posture we talk about steering with legs, hips, feet to releave some of the burdon from our hands.  The reason we teach (Natural Steering) is easy... let's say you're riding a highway exit ramp.  You're at 50mph at the beginning of the ramp exit you press on the right grip, that pressure causes your round tire to counter steer and roll in the direction of the press.  Standard counter-steering.... now lets say you roll over a (crack, tar strip, debris, roadkill etc) as your tire rolls over the obstacle that "energy" compresses the tire EXAMPLE (which absorbs 2% of the energy) the remaining balance goes into the front suspension (90% absorbsion) whatever remaining balance of the energy is transferred to the steering head, handlebar, hand grip.  (Quick recap) You're at 50mph and just rolled over a crack in the road... if you're counter-steering "solely" when that remaining energy comes through to the grip your body posture and pressure on the grip will have you oscillate that energy back to the suspension & tire because part of upper torso is rigid.  You "feel" the crack in the road... because your connected to the front tire via the presssure in your hand.
Natural steering has the motorcycle leaning over 50mph same curve, same crack but because we're steering with our legs, hip, foot and hand (mostly legs & hip) when we pass over the crack the remaining balance of that energy (crack) passes through our upper torso, we don't reciprocate it back to the motorcycle, it passes through us.
Damn its easy to say... hard to write, sorry... we'll see if you "get it".  Remember we counter-steer as well... our hands compliment the effort of the rest of our body.  
Racers... Trackday Bandits... frequently I'd see (on the track) riders who counter-steered only struggle with fast sweepers or bumps in mid-corner.  Why?  Think of it... they are leaned over, imagine the the pressure of the tire against the asphalt, the suspension is loaded because he's setting up for the curve... think of the pressure to the grip it took to achieve that lean angle... now throw in a bump!  That energy gets transferred up the tire, suspension to the steering head and grip where he's pushing back (hand) hard.  That energy meets his hand and upper torso and is reciprocated (oscillation) back to the ground where the front tire looses grip and low-sides.
If the rider was supporting his body with his inner thigh, tighten abdomen muscles and relaxed upper torso the energy from the bump goes straight through his body... his body would be a dampener for that excess energy.

SRTT Braking style and posture all feed into balance and control... it's a great class, I can really get into the nuts & bolts if you like but its easier for me to show you, have you experience the difference good & bad (like KokomoSam did with the braking drill).  How far can I take you?  Depends on the environment and your willingness to try different styles and ask questions.  Let's watch this thread blowup with debate
 

[SRTTguy]

Counter steering (additional) I just reread your questions and thoughts about asking me to ride the the swerve no-handed    You can steer your motorcycle with your head alone... don't believe me try it.  Find a nice straight stretch of parking lot somewhere, gear of your choice, speed of your choice, ride as relaxed on the controlls as possible.  Then simply tip your ear near your shoulder, the bike will steer itself to that side.  You can steer with any part of your body, try your foot (pressing down) or hang your leg off to one side.  Many times riders forget to think of themselves as a 3D object, your weight (balance) is contained within those two contact patches beneath you.  If you add weight or influence to one side more than another... it will respond.
Granted none of the above methods are responsive or quick but they do influence the steering of a motorcycle.  Have you ever ridden a bicycle with no hands?  I wasn't very good at it but I've seen kids ride around corners etc no handed.  I'm sure if you could keep your RPMs up the same would be possible on a motorcycle.  I'll have to get cruise control andtry it out

** KokomoSam - Did you look at your photos on Snapfish?

[KokomoSam]

Clatter - the noise you heard "clatter" was from (almost) getting the braking right.  I did it a few times (mostly in the morning run when I was warming up) was from not applying the rear brake at the same "tempo" of squeezing the front brake.  I generally ride the course pretty quick to loosen up myself, my speeds between 20mph ~ 70 mph.  When you heard the "clatter" I had applied pressure quicker to the rear than I was applying to the front.  Under braking (even SRTT Style) the natural reaction of the motorcycle is for the weight (inertia) to move forward [obvisouly].  The front tire compresses under the weight transfer, the front suspension loads as well.  {Think of "psi" if I had applied 3psi of front braking force... increasing to 6psi while the rear started at 5psi and maintained steady}  It would not allow for the rear suspension to travel, the rear brake appled in that manner would have "locked" the rear suspension while it wanted to unload (remember the countershaft sprocket and front brake has everything moving forward) and I had applied too much rear brake (basically) locking the rear suspension... this caused the rear tire to "hop" making that chattering noise.  In fact... if you were behind me when I did that... you would of seen a dotted line of a tire skiff.  Again I'd like to emphasize that was incorrect... I was warming up.  When it happens to you simply realize that you had applied too much pressure to the rear (faster) than you had applied to the front.  When that happens... you could either release the pressure gradually until you've matched the pressure in the front or just release the rear brake completely and reapply.  

So if I can repeat, to make sure I have this right.   The noise is caused by applying too much rear brake, and the wheel hopping as it alternates between not spinning and spinning as the engine forces it to roll.  Right?  I guess that is good, since if I wasn't using engine braking that would mean I would have locked up the rear wheel.   Also, in your explanation above you seemed to use the term "locked rear suspension".  Does this mean that the shock and spring are fully extended as the weight is transfered forward?

We practiced SRTT braking from a speed slow enough in class that I didn't have to down shift while braking.   Using my old style of braking, If I was doing an emergency stop from top gear, I would have the clutch in and as I slowed, I would try to down shift to match my speed in case I needed to get back on the gas.  So using SRTT style braking, this can become more complicated, since you have to use the clutch to down shift. Do you have any thouhgts/suggestions on how to do this?

Standard counter-steering.... now lets say you roll over a (crack, tar strip, debris, roadkill etc) as your tire rolls over the obstacle that "energy" compresses the tire EXAMPLE (which absorbs 2% of the energy) the remaining balance goes into the front suspension (90% absorbsion) whatever remaining balance of the energy is transferred to the steering head, handlebar, hand grip.  (Quick recap) You're at 50mph and just rolled over a crack in the road... if you're counter-steering "solely" when that remaining energy comes through to the grip your body posture and pressure on the grip will have you oscillate that energy back to the suspension & tire because part of upper torso is rigid.  You "feel" the crack in the road... because your connected to the front tire via the presssure in your hand.
Natural steering has the motorcycle leaning over 50mph same curve, same crack but because we're steering with our legs, hip, foot and hand (mostly legs & hip) when we pass over the crack the remaining balance of that energy (crack) passes through our upper torso, we don't reciprocate it back to the motorcycle, it passes through us.

If I am reading the above correctly, it sounds like you are talking about not putting pressure on the handlebars to keep the weight that comes from your hands to the bike from upsetting the bike.  In the example it doesn't seem like you are talking about controlling the bike with you legs, but more not allowing the weight from your arms give un-intended input over bumps.  The fix for this is holding on with your legs, but I am not sure if the relates to steering.  Did I get something wrong?  

[KokomoSam]

Counter steering (additional) I just reread your questions and thoughts about asking me to ride the the swerve no-handed    You can steer your motorcycle with your head alone... don't believe me try it.  Find a nice straight stretch of parking lot somewhere, gear of your choice, speed of your choice, ride as relaxed on the controlls as possible.  Then simply tip your ear near your shoulder, the bike will steer itself to that side.  You can steer with any part of your body, try your foot (pressing down) or hang your leg off to one side.  Many times riders forget to think of themselves as a 3D object, your weight (balance) is contained within those two contact patches beneath you.  If you add weight or influence to one side more than another... it will respond.

That makes sense, when I watch motorcycle racing, it is interesting to see racers well before they enter corners lean their bodies in the direction of the upcoming turn while still going straight, but as they do this they have to lean the bike in the opposite direction to keep going straight.  This seems to make an upside down triangle with the point being the tire contact to the ground the bike being one leg and their body weight off the bike being another.  So I get that changing your weight relative to the bike will effect the bike.  

** KokomoSam - Did you look at your photos on Snapfish?

I did.  In fact I downloaded them.  Here are a few...

[SRTTguy]

KokomoSam wrote, "So if I can repeat, to make sure I have this right.   The noise is caused by applying too much rear brake, and the wheel hopping as it alternates between not spinning and spinning as the engine forces it to roll.  Right?  I guess that is good, since if I wasn't using engine braking that would mean I would have locked up the rear wheel.   Also, in your explanation above you seemed to use the term "locked rear suspension".  Does this mean that the shock and spring are fully extended as the weight is transferred forward?"

You've got it (clatter)... just try and release some of the pressure or simply release & reapply.  As for the suspension... it depends on your settings if the suspension is "fully extended".  In theory you are correct though, the rear does want to extend and by having too much rear brake in that scenario the suspension is "restricted" from extending further... the wheel will hop trying to keep up to the speed of the motorcycle.

When done correctly you can drift the rear wheel into corners so smooth its awesome (I like to do that with passengers so they can feel it).  The rear wheel would be traveling at EXAMPLE AGAIN 18mph while the motorcycle is traveling at 20mph, the 2mph difference.... the rear tire leaves as nice little trail of rubber.  Obviously the tire is turning... just not quite as fast as the front tire setting up for the corner.  That is a thing of beauty  

So have I answered all of your questions?  If not... let me know.

[Capirex]

Welcome to the site Don.  
Thanks for the comments.

When done correctly you can drift the rear wheel into corners so smooth its awesome (I like to do that with passengers so they can feel it).  The rear wheel would be traveling at EXAMPLE AGAIN 18mph while the motorcycle is traveling at 20mph, the 2mph difference.... the rear tire leaves as nice little trail of rubber.  Obviously the tire is turning... just not quite as fast as the front tire setting up for the corner.  That is a thing of beauty  

Nice.  Do you teach a track day somewhere or can I expect to learn to drift the rear the next time I come out to SRTT?  

[mxvet57]

Welcome to the site Don.  
Thanks for the comments.



Nice.  Do you teach a track day somewhere or can I expect to learn to drift the rear the next time I come out to SRTT?  

  i do that with out Even trying.

[Capirex]

  i do that with out Even trying.

That's what a little dirt experience will do for you I guess.  
I've broken the rear loose too but not on purpose.  I'd love to be able to do a controlled slide although that skill doesn't really lend itself to the street very well.  

[HipGnosis]

 You can steer your motorcycle with your head alone...   I'll have to get cruise control and try it out  

Yep!!  I had a throttle lock on my GPZ750 when I rode from Wisconsin to Florida.
My best 'record' was 60+ miles w/o touching the bars.   I turned with my head, arms (kinda cool that doing a hand signal to 'turn' left moved the bike to the left), legs and upper body.
I did curves and lane changes.
Some people looked at me really funny, exp when I put my hands behind my head and leaned back on the duffle bag that was strapped to the back seat..
I now ride one handed a LOT, including fast sweepers.  It keeps me smooth... I suspect I'm sub-consciously using 'natural turning'.  

[KokomoSam]

So have I answered all of your questions?  If not... let me know.

So having tried this few times in the street, I find that the issue I am not completely clear on is the role of down shifting.   If coming done from a highway speed using this method, should you go through each gear while braking, or brake in the higher gear until the stop then clutch in and down shift through multiple gears?

[SRTTguy]

  Funny... I had asked the same question when I was learning as well, the location was Twin Ring Motegi and the instructors said that it didn't matter.    (Rider's Choice) However, remember the under lying principal:

* The countershaft sprocket "engaged" helps maintain balance (chain tension & suspension) so if you down shift one gear at a time or... leave your clutch out longer and down shift two or three gears... be smooth (keeping your clutch engaged "no coasting" gives positive results to everything)
* Remember why we shift... to match engine speed to road speed.  I generally brake and downshift two or more gear (matching my desired speed) that I want to enter the next turn.  Slowing down from 70mph to a 35mph turn would have me typically braking "close" to my desired entry speed... downshift two or more gears... easing out the clutch and picking up the throttle.  Doing so keeps the chain tight and suspension loaded better to suit my riding style.

KokomoSam - Now that you've had a few days under your belt after taking the class do you have any observations you'd like to share?  Did you revert back to your "pre-SRTT" style?

As for the trackday request... Brad & Chris said its EXTREMELY expensive to rent the track for a day here in the U.S.  What do standard trackdays costs?  How many "Control Riders" are there per-group?  Do they set up cones etc on the track to restrict you to proper lines?

[KokomoSam]

  Funny... I had asked the same question when I was learning as well, the location was Twin Ring Motegi and the instructors said that it didn't matter.    (Rider's Choice) However, remember the under lying principal:

I guess my main concern for this technique is emergency braking.  So if I am riding at 45 - 70 mph, and a dump truck pulls out in front of me or a tree falls or whatever requiring an emergency 100% brake.  I find it is easier to leave the bike in whatever gear I was running in and start the SRTT braking process.  This is simple and eliminates the issues with pulling in the clutch and worrying about being smooth with lots of down shifting  in a panic situation.   The down side of this that I see are 2:

• Stalling the engine - Obviously stalling the engine and the subsequent rear will lock up is all kinds of bad.  If you were cruising in 5th or 6th gear, and coming to a stop, it seems like stalling is a real risk
• Being in the wrong gear - Braking hard is sometimes followed by a need to swerve or move quickly.  If you leave the bike in 6th gear brake down to 10mph or so, then need to move quickly you are not in the correct gear.

Outside of "panic stops", if I am riding the twisties, I am much more likely to be in a lower gear.  Even with the 1200cc's of the bandit I find that it is easier to ride fast if I keep the rev's up during the twisites . So down shifiting is not as important during braking.
Is there an answer to the downside of not down shifting?

KokomoSam - Now that you've had a few days under your belt after taking the class do you have any observations you'd like to share?  Did you revert back to your "pre-SRTT" style?

First, do to travel and now a sickness, I haven't ridden nearly as much as I like, but from what I have I think I can answer the questions.  Yes, I do revert sometimes.  I have a lot of habit and muscle memory to overcome.  The hardest is using the rear brake, then if I do use the rear brake, not overcooking it.  I need to develop more feel for the rear brake, now that I am using it for the first time in years.  Also, I have to continually remind myself to grip the tank tighter with my legs.  I joking said something about getting a thighmaster, but I may need to do something.  LOL

[SRTTguy]

The down side of this that I see are 2:

Stalling the engine - Obviously stalling the engine and the subsequent rear will lock up is all kinds of bad.  If you were cruising in 5th or 6th gear, and coming to a stop, it seems like stalling is a real risk

Being in the wrong gear - Braking hard is sometimes followed by a need to swerve or move quickly.  If you leave the bike in 6th gear brake down to 10mph or so, then need to move quickly you are not in the correct gear.

I hate to sound cheezy but you need to try it... you said that Maywood was close to where you live.  Stop-in sometime and give it a test.  You will see it's harder than you think to stall the engine... like anything in life it just takes practise.  As for the swerve question... frequently here deer jump out in front of me.  Traveling 70mph top gear... I see the deer jump into the path of my headlight, I'm braking HARD trying to give Bambi a chance to decide which way he'll exit.  After I've scrubbed off 75% of my speed, I downshift 2~3 gears (same time) and then swerve.  I wouldn't downshift one gear at a time in that scenerio (I'm not saying one method is right or wrong... simply stating what works for me and my comfort level).  

[Fourstring]

Alright, I'm convinced.  

Checking registration dates now...

[jadziadax8]

Are scooters allowed?  I don't have a clutch.  

[SRTTguy]

Sure... there is allot to be taught to scooter riders (balance / control) as well.  In fact, scooters are a blast to have on the course.  A scooter well ridden (competitive rider) can give sportbikes fits!!

*Small Story - Going through school I had to learn to not think like an American.  I'm a fairly large guy 6' / 230lbs (round is a shape sort of guy).  When I first started my training at HMS - TEC (Honda Motor Sports - Traffic Education Center) I'd always grab a 750cc or larger motorcycle.  Big guy = big bike!
It wasn't until MUCH later in my training that I decided to try the 400cc, I loved those motorcycles and could spank the 750cc and over riders at will.  Then I decided that I liked the 400cc so much I'd try the 250cc Honda Hornets... those things were like scalpels!!!  The more I rode the more I understood... it's not about "cc's", it's about balance/control and rpm's.  
I would frequently have riders from the different bases join me for an afternoon of riding SRTT.  They would be red-face mad that I'd absolutely smoke their GSXR, R1, ZRX 1000 or larger with a factory bone stock Honda Hornet 250.  Believe me... IT'S NOT WHAT YOU RIDE.... RATHER HOW YOU RIDE IT that makes a good rider better.  So when I see these guys with their aftermarket parts, race tuned this... high performance that... I just smile.  I was like that too earlier in my life.  I spent wayyyyy to much money n "Go-Fast" parts and didn't understand how to truly GO-FAST!
How does that ol'saying go, "If I knew then.... what I know now"    I wish I had a fleet of motorcycles available for you to test ride yourselves... it would amaze you I'm sure.  Although... we always had those that felt what they learned could have been better by learning to ride "their" motorcycles betters.  But like KokomoSam learned... we like for you to push your comfort envelope as you become more comfortable with the style/technique but sometimes... tip-overs can lead to a scratch or broken turn signal.

[KokomoSam]

Alright, I'm convinced.  

Checking registration dates now...

Fourstring - ST.n Class?    i wonder if we could get a big turn out from here..

SRTT Guy - Do I get a kick back?