Ride-Chicago SRTT Class - June 24 2007 *now with writeup

[KokomoSam]

Clatter - the noise you heard "clatter" was from (almost) getting the braking right.  I did it a few times (mostly in the morning run when I was warming up) was from not applying the rear brake at the same "tempo" of squeezing the front brake.  I generally ride the course pretty quick to loosen up myself, my speeds between 20mph ~ 70 mph.  When you heard the "clatter" I had applied pressure quicker to the rear than I was applying to the front.  Under braking (even SRTT Style) the natural reaction of the motorcycle is for the weight (inertia) to move forward [obvisouly].  The front tire compresses under the weight transfer, the front suspension loads as well.  {Think of "psi" if I had applied 3psi of front braking force... increasing to 6psi while the rear started at 5psi and maintained steady}  It would not allow for the rear suspension to travel, the rear brake appled in that manner would have "locked" the rear suspension while it wanted to unload (remember the countershaft sprocket and front brake has everything moving forward) and I had applied too much rear brake (basically) locking the rear suspension... this caused the rear tire to "hop" making that chattering noise.  In fact... if you were behind me when I did that... you would of seen a dotted line of a tire skiff.  Again I'd like to emphasize that was incorrect... I was warming up.  When it happens to you simply realize that you had applied too much pressure to the rear (faster) than you had applied to the front.  When that happens... you could either release the pressure gradually until you've matched the pressure in the front or just release the rear brake completely and reapply.  

So if I can repeat, to make sure I have this right.   The noise is caused by applying too much rear brake, and the wheel hopping as it alternates between not spinning and spinning as the engine forces it to roll.  Right?  I guess that is good, since if I wasn't using engine braking that would mean I would have locked up the rear wheel.   Also, in your explanation above you seemed to use the term "locked rear suspension".  Does this mean that the shock and spring are fully extended as the weight is transfered forward?

We practiced SRTT braking from a speed slow enough in class that I didn't have to down shift while braking.   Using my old style of braking, If I was doing an emergency stop from top gear, I would have the clutch in and as I slowed, I would try to down shift to match my speed in case I needed to get back on the gas.  So using SRTT style braking, this can become more complicated, since you have to use the clutch to down shift. Do you have any thouhgts/suggestions on how to do this?

Standard counter-steering.... now lets say you roll over a (crack, tar strip, debris, roadkill etc) as your tire rolls over the obstacle that "energy" compresses the tire EXAMPLE (which absorbs 2% of the energy) the remaining balance goes into the front suspension (90% absorbsion) whatever remaining balance of the energy is transferred to the steering head, handlebar, hand grip.  (Quick recap) You're at 50mph and just rolled over a crack in the road... if you're counter-steering "solely" when that remaining energy comes through to the grip your body posture and pressure on the grip will have you oscillate that energy back to the suspension & tire because part of upper torso is rigid.  You "feel" the crack in the road... because your connected to the front tire via the presssure in your hand.
Natural steering has the motorcycle leaning over 50mph same curve, same crack but because we're steering with our legs, hip, foot and hand (mostly legs & hip) when we pass over the crack the remaining balance of that energy (crack) passes through our upper torso, we don't reciprocate it back to the motorcycle, it passes through us.

If I am reading the above correctly, it sounds like you are talking about not putting pressure on the handlebars to keep the weight that comes from your hands to the bike from upsetting the bike.  In the example it doesn't seem like you are talking about controlling the bike with you legs, but more not allowing the weight from your arms give un-intended input over bumps.  The fix for this is holding on with your legs, but I am not sure if the relates to steering.  Did I get something wrong?  

[KokomoSam]

Counter steering (additional) I just reread your questions and thoughts about asking me to ride the the swerve no-handed    You can steer your motorcycle with your head alone... don't believe me try it.  Find a nice straight stretch of parking lot somewhere, gear of your choice, speed of your choice, ride as relaxed on the controlls as possible.  Then simply tip your ear near your shoulder, the bike will steer itself to that side.  You can steer with any part of your body, try your foot (pressing down) or hang your leg off to one side.  Many times riders forget to think of themselves as a 3D object, your weight (balance) is contained within those two contact patches beneath you.  If you add weight or influence to one side more than another... it will respond.

That makes sense, when I watch motorcycle racing, it is interesting to see racers well before they enter corners lean their bodies in the direction of the upcoming turn while still going straight, but as they do this they have to lean the bike in the opposite direction to keep going straight.  This seems to make an upside down triangle with the point being the tire contact to the ground the bike being one leg and their body weight off the bike being another.  So I get that changing your weight relative to the bike will effect the bike.  

** KokomoSam - Did you look at your photos on Snapfish?

I did.  In fact I downloaded them.  Here are a few...

[SRTTguy]

KokomoSam wrote, "So if I can repeat, to make sure I have this right.   The noise is caused by applying too much rear brake, and the wheel hopping as it alternates between not spinning and spinning as the engine forces it to roll.  Right?  I guess that is good, since if I wasn't using engine braking that would mean I would have locked up the rear wheel.   Also, in your explanation above you seemed to use the term "locked rear suspension".  Does this mean that the shock and spring are fully extended as the weight is transferred forward?"

You've got it (clatter)... just try and release some of the pressure or simply release & reapply.  As for the suspension... it depends on your settings if the suspension is "fully extended".  In theory you are correct though, the rear does want to extend and by having too much rear brake in that scenario the suspension is "restricted" from extending further... the wheel will hop trying to keep up to the speed of the motorcycle.

When done correctly you can drift the rear wheel into corners so smooth its awesome (I like to do that with passengers so they can feel it).  The rear wheel would be traveling at EXAMPLE AGAIN 18mph while the motorcycle is traveling at 20mph, the 2mph difference.... the rear tire leaves as nice little trail of rubber.  Obviously the tire is turning... just not quite as fast as the front tire setting up for the corner.  That is a thing of beauty  

So have I answered all of your questions?  If not... let me know.

[Capirex]

Welcome to the site Don.  
Thanks for the comments.

When done correctly you can drift the rear wheel into corners so smooth its awesome (I like to do that with passengers so they can feel it).  The rear wheel would be traveling at EXAMPLE AGAIN 18mph while the motorcycle is traveling at 20mph, the 2mph difference.... the rear tire leaves as nice little trail of rubber.  Obviously the tire is turning... just not quite as fast as the front tire setting up for the corner.  That is a thing of beauty  

Nice.  Do you teach a track day somewhere or can I expect to learn to drift the rear the next time I come out to SRTT?  

[mxvet57]

Welcome to the site Don.  
Thanks for the comments.



Nice.  Do you teach a track day somewhere or can I expect to learn to drift the rear the next time I come out to SRTT?  

  i do that with out Even trying.

[Capirex]

  i do that with out Even trying.

That's what a little dirt experience will do for you I guess.  
I've broken the rear loose too but not on purpose.  I'd love to be able to do a controlled slide although that skill doesn't really lend itself to the street very well.  

[HipGnosis]

 You can steer your motorcycle with your head alone...   I'll have to get cruise control and try it out  

Yep!!  I had a throttle lock on my GPZ750 when I rode from Wisconsin to Florida.
My best 'record' was 60+ miles w/o touching the bars.   I turned with my head, arms (kinda cool that doing a hand signal to 'turn' left moved the bike to the left), legs and upper body.
I did curves and lane changes.
Some people looked at me really funny, exp when I put my hands behind my head and leaned back on the duffle bag that was strapped to the back seat..
I now ride one handed a LOT, including fast sweepers.  It keeps me smooth... I suspect I'm sub-consciously using 'natural turning'.  

[KokomoSam]

So have I answered all of your questions?  If not... let me know.

So having tried this few times in the street, I find that the issue I am not completely clear on is the role of down shifting.   If coming done from a highway speed using this method, should you go through each gear while braking, or brake in the higher gear until the stop then clutch in and down shift through multiple gears?

[SRTTguy]

  Funny... I had asked the same question when I was learning as well, the location was Twin Ring Motegi and the instructors said that it didn't matter.    (Rider's Choice) However, remember the under lying principal:

* The countershaft sprocket "engaged" helps maintain balance (chain tension & suspension) so if you down shift one gear at a time or... leave your clutch out longer and down shift two or three gears... be smooth (keeping your clutch engaged "no coasting" gives positive results to everything)
* Remember why we shift... to match engine speed to road speed.  I generally brake and downshift two or more gear (matching my desired speed) that I want to enter the next turn.  Slowing down from 70mph to a 35mph turn would have me typically braking "close" to my desired entry speed... downshift two or more gears... easing out the clutch and picking up the throttle.  Doing so keeps the chain tight and suspension loaded better to suit my riding style.

KokomoSam - Now that you've had a few days under your belt after taking the class do you have any observations you'd like to share?  Did you revert back to your "pre-SRTT" style?

As for the trackday request... Brad & Chris said its EXTREMELY expensive to rent the track for a day here in the U.S.  What do standard trackdays costs?  How many "Control Riders" are there per-group?  Do they set up cones etc on the track to restrict you to proper lines?

[KokomoSam]

  Funny... I had asked the same question when I was learning as well, the location was Twin Ring Motegi and the instructors said that it didn't matter.    (Rider's Choice) However, remember the under lying principal:

I guess my main concern for this technique is emergency braking.  So if I am riding at 45 - 70 mph, and a dump truck pulls out in front of me or a tree falls or whatever requiring an emergency 100% brake.  I find it is easier to leave the bike in whatever gear I was running in and start the SRTT braking process.  This is simple and eliminates the issues with pulling in the clutch and worrying about being smooth with lots of down shifting  in a panic situation.   The down side of this that I see are 2:

• Stalling the engine - Obviously stalling the engine and the subsequent rear will lock up is all kinds of bad.  If you were cruising in 5th or 6th gear, and coming to a stop, it seems like stalling is a real risk
• Being in the wrong gear - Braking hard is sometimes followed by a need to swerve or move quickly.  If you leave the bike in 6th gear brake down to 10mph or so, then need to move quickly you are not in the correct gear.

Outside of "panic stops", if I am riding the twisties, I am much more likely to be in a lower gear.  Even with the 1200cc's of the bandit I find that it is easier to ride fast if I keep the rev's up during the twisites . So down shifiting is not as important during braking.
Is there an answer to the downside of not down shifting?

KokomoSam - Now that you've had a few days under your belt after taking the class do you have any observations you'd like to share?  Did you revert back to your "pre-SRTT" style?

First, do to travel and now a sickness, I haven't ridden nearly as much as I like, but from what I have I think I can answer the questions.  Yes, I do revert sometimes.  I have a lot of habit and muscle memory to overcome.  The hardest is using the rear brake, then if I do use the rear brake, not overcooking it.  I need to develop more feel for the rear brake, now that I am using it for the first time in years.  Also, I have to continually remind myself to grip the tank tighter with my legs.  I joking said something about getting a thighmaster, but I may need to do something.  LOL

[SRTTguy]

The down side of this that I see are 2:

Stalling the engine - Obviously stalling the engine and the subsequent rear will lock up is all kinds of bad.  If you were cruising in 5th or 6th gear, and coming to a stop, it seems like stalling is a real risk

Being in the wrong gear - Braking hard is sometimes followed by a need to swerve or move quickly.  If you leave the bike in 6th gear brake down to 10mph or so, then need to move quickly you are not in the correct gear.

I hate to sound cheezy but you need to try it... you said that Maywood was close to where you live.  Stop-in sometime and give it a test.  You will see it's harder than you think to stall the engine... like anything in life it just takes practise.  As for the swerve question... frequently here deer jump out in front of me.  Traveling 70mph top gear... I see the deer jump into the path of my headlight, I'm braking HARD trying to give Bambi a chance to decide which way he'll exit.  After I've scrubbed off 75% of my speed, I downshift 2~3 gears (same time) and then swerve.  I wouldn't downshift one gear at a time in that scenerio (I'm not saying one method is right or wrong... simply stating what works for me and my comfort level).  

[Fourstring]

Alright, I'm convinced.  

Checking registration dates now...

[jadziadax8]

Are scooters allowed?  I don't have a clutch.  

[SRTTguy]

Sure... there is allot to be taught to scooter riders (balance / control) as well.  In fact, scooters are a blast to have on the course.  A scooter well ridden (competitive rider) can give sportbikes fits!!

*Small Story - Going through school I had to learn to not think like an American.  I'm a fairly large guy 6' / 230lbs (round is a shape sort of guy).  When I first started my training at HMS - TEC (Honda Motor Sports - Traffic Education Center) I'd always grab a 750cc or larger motorcycle.  Big guy = big bike!
It wasn't until MUCH later in my training that I decided to try the 400cc, I loved those motorcycles and could spank the 750cc and over riders at will.  Then I decided that I liked the 400cc so much I'd try the 250cc Honda Hornets... those things were like scalpels!!!  The more I rode the more I understood... it's not about "cc's", it's about balance/control and rpm's.  
I would frequently have riders from the different bases join me for an afternoon of riding SRTT.  They would be red-face mad that I'd absolutely smoke their GSXR, R1, ZRX 1000 or larger with a factory bone stock Honda Hornet 250.  Believe me... IT'S NOT WHAT YOU RIDE.... RATHER HOW YOU RIDE IT that makes a good rider better.  So when I see these guys with their aftermarket parts, race tuned this... high performance that... I just smile.  I was like that too earlier in my life.  I spent wayyyyy to much money n "Go-Fast" parts and didn't understand how to truly GO-FAST!
How does that ol'saying go, "If I knew then.... what I know now"    I wish I had a fleet of motorcycles available for you to test ride yourselves... it would amaze you I'm sure.  Although... we always had those that felt what they learned could have been better by learning to ride "their" motorcycles betters.  But like KokomoSam learned... we like for you to push your comfort envelope as you become more comfortable with the style/technique but sometimes... tip-overs can lead to a scratch or broken turn signal.

[KokomoSam]

Alright, I'm convinced.  

Checking registration dates now...

Fourstring - ST.n Class?    i wonder if we could get a big turn out from here..

SRTT Guy - Do I get a kick back?