Ride the Dolomites?

[dm_gsxr]

Last weekend Rita and I talked about the STN International. I'd mentioned down in "The National" forum about how it'd be great for STN to have a meet in England or The Continent. As we talked I asked if she'd take a little time and check it out. I've seen a couple of articles in Motorcyclist I think about the touring group in Brazil and of course Orson's ride report.

Rita found Central Italy Motorcycle Tours and since Orson used CIMT to rent his bike, she pursued it further.

There are several potential touring opportunities. Rita picked The Dolomites but any could be chosen of course.

If you check here, you can see the accommodations and prices. The prices in the table are per person (just to be clear) and includes everything except airfare to and from Italy (and of course any touristy things you buy).

The calendar is full up for next year so it'd be for summer 2009. We'd want to get deposits in probably before the end of this summer to reserve a group. The group shows a minimum of 4 and Rita said it's a maximum of 10 bikes with up to 2 riders on each bike.

Of course that's if we go with a guided tour. If we decide to try and rough it, it'd be a bit more work and we could probably get a better price overall (maybe). I'm not volunteering Rita but she does do a pretty good job in finding the out of the way places and good prices for stuff and of course folks who happen to be over there could also be of help

This is just a feeler thread to see if there's serious interest. I'd like to go just to visit and ride. It'd be great if some STNers were there to share in the experience.

Mods, if this should be in "The National", then feel free to move it.

Thanks.

Carl

[greench440]

I'm up for this.  Mrs. Greench 440 and I have already discussed going to the Alps again in 2009, but doing it on our own.  We are thinking of starting in Milan. heading north to Andermatt then east to Vienna or circling back to Milan from Cortina.

[Green01SprintST]

I was stationed in Vicenza, between Venice and Verona, in the early '70s.  My only mode of transport was a 1970 model 500 Kawasaki triple.  We, the wife and I, spent a lot of time touring around northern Italy on that blue-smoke belching monster.  We loved it and so will you!  The Dolomites ROCK!  

[Global Rider]

If we decide to try and rough it, it'd be a bit more work and we could probably get a better price overall (maybe).

Trust me Carl, paying a lot less does not mean you have to "rough" it. And looking at those rates, thats a lot of money for what you are getting, but then, they are a business out to make a profit. So leave the "maybe" out of the equation. You could easily do it for half price.

Take the "single-own bike" rate of €1820; thats €364 per day just for food and accomodations.   I can stay in a nice place and eat well for that amount for a whole 5 days.  

I stayed at La Fontana in Corvara (a motorcycle friendly hotel) a few years back. Check their prices! A standard room with breakfast and dinner goes for a maximum of €57 per person/per night. Thats €285 vs €1820.

In case you haven't come across my thread on the subject...
Alps Motorcycle Tours - Priced Right

[MK96xj]

I think this is a very good idea. I just returned from Italy and although i only did one day of riding on a scooter to boot it was excellent and need to return to do it properly on a bike.

A few thoughts:
This will probably only gather a small group form the states but i think it would open the possability of more people if the routes were planned in conjunction with an Italian or Europeon member(s). This would reduce the cost of the over all trip. Planning and pricing of a guided tour can be done by anyone individually and many choose not to do this due to the costs. Although it will still be rather expensive for any US members it will probably intice those that have never been to Europe before and are leery on going it alone. Doing it as a group of STN'er would make this much easier.

I'm watching to see where this goes

[dnlwthrn]

Hmm, I'd love to jump on something like this... but the overall cost, along with 3 little kids, makes it pretty much a non-possibility.  I'm guessing that airfare will be in the neighborhood of $1k round trip per person (at least that's what I've seen recently from Chicago).

So if we could cut the price in half or so, that'd make it much more appealing.  Also, with a decent sized group, and maybe someone like Orson to show us around, I think it'd be a blast!  So keep researching as you feel led, and post up what you find...

[dm_gsxr]

Yep, we're doing some research now and will post updates as they come.

Carl

[kmkirlin]

I am very interested in this.  Please keep me posted.  Keep up the good work.

[Ant]

I can't plan what I'm having for tea tonight let alone something that is going to happen in 2009!!  

But yeah, definitely count me in  

[Ant]

Oh, I do think however that it makes more sense to organise it ourselves...
I don't really know the area as such but I don't think you can go wrong really! And I'm sure I could find out more or pester someone such as Orson for more details!! The skinflint in me just doesn't like doing anything that is professionally organised, I'd rather do it myself and take everything as it comes. The only problem then would be for you guys from the States would be renting bikes, I assume that organisation does just rental?

[dm_gsxr]

According to the web site, they do rent bikes. If we can come up with a decent sized group, we might even be able to wrangle a group discount.

If we do the tour ourselves, we can probably set it up for next year rather than 2009.

Carl

[Ant]

According to the web site, they do rent bikes. If we can come up with a decent sized group, we might even be able to wrangle a group discount.

If we do the tour ourselves, we can probably set it up for next year rather than 2009.

Carl

Other than the obvious language barrier I can't see any reason why with a bit of organisation (sorry, dirty word I know  ) we couldn't save ourselves a fair bit of money and just arrange it ourselves. As Global Rider pointed out, hotels can be found a damn sight cheaper than that and from a quick glance at that website he linked to it looks like a comfortable hotel.


I hope you all realise that now you've got my hopes up and I've got my planning hat on (it's genetic, my Dad and I enjoy planning just as much as the trip itself) I'll be very disappointed if nothing ever comes of it

[dm_gsxr]

Well the more folks that express an interest, the more likely it'll occur. These things seem to peter out when no interest is shown.

It's always easier to plan when folks from the area can join in so we can compare notes and such. As to language, we can always bring phrase books

Just remember, it's one thumb for one beer. If you raise a finger, you get two

Carl

[stefrrr]

Wow, I was just thinking about something like this today. How strange. I've been trying to get to Europe for a vacation for a couple of years now, and I was thinking how cool it would be to ride for a bit.

If we can keep the prices for room & board reasonable, I'll be in.

I've looked at this company, SuperBike Hire before, and I'd be willing to ride from the UK at these prices, but definitely keep me updated! (Not saying it wouldn't be cool to ride a guzzi or something besides what I already have, but money's money.)

I should be fluent in Espanol by then too. Should come in really handy in Italy.  

I can do a poll. Want it here or in the Europe section?

[dm_gsxr]

Trust me Carl, paying a lot less does not mean you have to "rough" it. And looking at those rates, thats a lot of money for what you are getting, but then, they are a business out to make a profit. So leave the "maybe" out of the equation. You could easily do it for half price.

I didn't mean "rough it" as in camp or seedy motels, just in the increased planning that would be involved.

I appreciate the additional info though.

Carl

[dm_gsxr]

Wow, I was just thinking about something like this today. How strange. I've been trying to get to Europe for a vacation for a couple of years now, and I was thinking how cool it would be to ride for a bit.

If we can keep the prices for room & board reasonable, I'll be in.

I've looked at this company, SuperBike Hire before, and I'd be willing to ride from the UK at these prices, but definitely keep me updated! (Not saying it wouldn't be cool to ride a guzzi or something besides what I already have, but money's money.)

I should be fluent in Espanol by then too. Should come in really handy in Italy.  

I can do a poll. Want it here or in the Europe section?

That's funny. We've been working on ours as well

What would it be a poll of? I think a good thing might be to find out what good areas would be so we could then have a poll over some good places. Along with a good timeframe as well. That's why I was interested in some ideas from folks who live there or have been there.

I was stationed in Germany and worked in Athens so Italy is a good choice. England would be good.

Carl

[stefrrr]

We all know the language in England.   Well, sort of...  

I was thinking a poll to gauge interest, and we could also figure out some possible destinations. I'd be willing to help with the planning of this one, as long as I'm not actually responsible for it...

[greench440]

Well, the title is "ride the dolomites".  When I look at the Alps, I see 3 main sections the Dolomites, Switzerland and the French alps.   You could do two of these areas pretty well on a 10 day trip without feeling rushed.  Probably want to keep the daily mileage between 150-200.

I've been through the Dolomites twice so btdt. While western Austria/Northern Italy (referred to as South Tirol or Alto Adige) is nice, especially west of Bolzano, I think Switzerland and the French alps offer better riding and more scenic passes.

As far as time, mid to late July would be best.  Italy and France take August off and everyone heads for the mountains.  The roads can get pretty crowded with buses and riding requires alot of overtaking.  June might be too early for some of the better passes to be open.

[dm_gsxr]

We all know the language in England.   Well, sort of...  

I was thinking a poll to gauge interest, and we could also figure out some possible destinations. I'd be willing to help with the planning of this one, as long as I'm not actually responsible for it...

That's fine. Joint planning is good too. This will be a pretty involved trip. Not like The Nationals where we find a single spot and run around

There's something to be said for one location exploring but it's going to cost a few bucks overall so we'd want to try and get reasonably close to our money's worth

Carl

[dm_gsxr]

Well, the title is "ride the dolomites".  When I look at the Alps, I see 3 main sections the Dolomites, Switzerland and the French alps.   You could do two of these areas pretty well on a 10 day trip without feeling rushed.  Probably want to keep the daily mileage between 150-200.

Yea but that was just what jumped out at me from looking at the list on the touring site.

I've been through the Dolomites twice so btdt. While western Austria/Northern Italy (referred to as South Tirol or Alto Adige) is nice, especially west of Bolzano, I think Switzerland and the French alps offer better riding and more scenic passes.

See, that's what I'm talking about. Someone with experience who can offer up suggestions. Thanks.

As far as time, mid to late July would be best.  Italy and France take August off and everyone heads for the mountains.  The roads can get pretty crowded with buses and riding requires alot of overtaking.  June might be too early for some of the better passes to be open.

Ok and a timeframe is set as well (for this location anyway) along with known holiday schedules. Sounds great

So that can be one option. Any other suggestions?

Carl

[Orson]

...and maybe someone like Orson to show us around, I think it'd be a blast!

don't follow me...cuz I usually don't know where I'm going....or when I get there I find out it wasn't where I thought I was going  

besides, I'm a spoil sport who insists the best biking roads are in the south of France  

but if you must do the Alps...Andermatt, Switzerland is popular cuz it's located smack dab in the middle of some of the best passes. The Dolomites are also a day's ride from there.

[sfarson]

...
but if you must do the Alps...Andermatt, Switzerland is popular cuz it's located smack dab in the middle of some of the best passes. The Dolomites are also a day's ride from there.

This advice is sound and was suggested to me by a friend in Italy.  Following business in Geneva rented a bike there, rode to the Andermatt area, and found a hotel to launch rides from in every direction.  It was a memorable trip including the day spent seeing and riding the Dolomites.  Report, images, and vids: http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11890  Have done the same in other countries.  While seeing value with tour companies, have found the lower cost, flexibility, and adventure from doing it on your own more than attractive.  Last month it was here: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240376

[throttlemeister]

I'd love to attend something like this, but there is no way I am going to pay 1800 euros for 5 days riding the Dolomites. See Global Rider's thread.

On the other hand, I am willing to step up and help organizing. I have been there lots of times (and going there again in September), know the good stuff and could make some very nice routes. I also know several nice hotels ranging from going cheap to 4-star accommodations, which in case of the latter would still give you a total price of less than half the quoted prices on CIMT.

Example: excellent 4-star hotel, deadsmack in the middle of the Dolomites rooms/suites (double) including breakfast and 4 course dinner with free garage for motorcycle parking and inside pool @ 140 euro/night. Which makes 70 euros per person. Times 5 + bike rental equals approx 1000 euro for rider (+350 for pillion if you have one). Only added cost is then gas and drinks, which you also have to pay with CIMT.

If you don't rent, cost would be the same as for a pillion: 350 euros + gas and drinks.

[Global Rider]

I also know several nice hotels ranging from going cheap to 4-star accommodations...

Example: excellent 4-star hotel, deadsmack in the middle of the Dolomites rooms/suites (double) including breakfast and 4 course dinner with free garage for motorcycle parking and inside pool @ 140 euro/night. Which makes 70 euros per person.

Links..info?  

[dm_gsxr]

I'd love to attend something like this, but there is no way I am going to pay 1800 euros for 5 days riding the Dolomites. See Global Rider's thread.

No way that's necessary. Since it's my first time looking into actually riding on a different continent (well other than the impromptu scooter ride in Greece), I was seeking information. Since I'm a computer type geek, I don't want to just post "hey what do you think" without at least a few options to prime the pump.

Sounds like it's working too.

On the other hand, I am willing to step up and help organizing. I have been there lots of times (and going there again in September), know the good stuff and could make some very nice routes. I also know several nice hotels ranging from going cheap to 4-star accommodations, which in case of the latter would still give you a total price of less than half the quoted prices on CIMT.

Example: excellent 4-star hotel, deadsmack in the middle of the Dolomites rooms/suites (double) including breakfast and 4 course dinner with free garage for motorcycle parking and inside pool @ 140 euro/night. Which makes 70 euros per person. Times 5 + bike rental equals approx 1000 euro for rider (+350 for pillion if you have one). Only added cost is then gas and drinks, which you also have to pay with CIMT.

Sounds great. Do you have more information such as the name of the hotel or a website? And some suggested routes that you've ridden?

If you don't rent, cost would be the same as for a pillion: 350 euros + gas and drinks.

Sorry, I don't understand this? If I don't rent a bike? What other options are there? I've heard of the home swapping vacations where folks get together and swap homes for a week.

Carl

[throttlemeister]

Well, since this is about a European meet, or at least on the European continent, I would expect some interest and participation of our European ST.N-ers. They will not need any renting.

One of my favorite hotel in the area: http://www.hotelevaldo.com/posizione_estate-e.htm
Hotel Evaldo, Arraba with about a dozen fun passes within a radius of like 30 mins riding.

[Ant]

Sorry, I don't understand this? If I don't rent a bike? What other options are there? I've heard of the home swapping vacations where folks get together and swap homes for a week.

Carl

I'm not sure about Italy but here in the UK the insurance issue would be the main problem with anyone loaning bikes around. I noticed on another thread here that in the US the bike is insured, not you, so if you loan the bike to someone they will be covered under your policy. Here it is you who are insured and not the bike. Anyone borrowing bikes rather than renting would also have to deal with the issue of insurance and I'm not sure how that'd work without a European driving license  

Oh and unfortunately I don't have any spare bikes even if we could figure something out... Sigh... oh to be rich  

[Global Rider]

Oh, I do think however that it makes more sense to organise it ourselves...

Absolutely! The minute you let anyone take charge other than yourself, the costs double.

I don't really know the area as such but I don't think you can go wrong really!

The Dolomites area is packed with accomodations and you could say that they are all motorcycle friendly; thats how they survive in the summer.

I've never booked anything but then, I tour solo. As for an organized meet where everyone wants to stay in the same place, then booking X rooms in advance is a must. I've stayed in Canazei, Corvara, Kiens and Agordo when I'm in that area.

This isn't rocket science. Accomodation info is all right here for starters...bottom of first thread:
http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,180.0.html

The only problem then would be for you guys from the States would be renting bikes, I assume that organisation does just rental?

Easy! Find out where the rentals are. Bianco Blu in Milan comes to mind. You can get to Milan from the US directly, I believe. And from Milan to the Dolomites is an easy day ride with good roads enroute.

More rentals listed here:
http://www.bmwmoa.org/global/ToEurope.htm

The first thing you need is a head count and some kind of commitment, actually, you don't...everybody books their own bike...same goes for the accomodations, you just book them with one e-mail showing all persons names and credit card info.

Easy! And you don't even need a tour guide or tour suggestions. All roads in that area are good. Just buy a map before getting there.

[Global Rider]

I've been through the Dolomites twice so btdt. While western Austria/Northern Italy (referred to as South Tirol or Alto Adige) is nice, especially west of Bolzano, I think Switzerland and the French alps offer better riding and more scenic passes.

You mean east of Bolzano, where the highest concentration of passes are.

As for Switzerland and the French alps offering better riding and more scenic passes, thats a matter of opinion and many would disagree.

Mid to late June would be best. Not as hot as July/August and rates are a bit lower. I've never found a pass closed that time of year yet, at least not due to snow.

[Ant]

I don't think I've ever been quoted so many times in a post
All very valid points and exactly the way I travel myself, I've never travelled as part of a big group before so it is the group thing that I don't know what the best way of doing it is...

Your suggestion of all booking individually would work but the worry would be making sure that everyone involved booked around the same time to be sure we didn't end up with a situation of half of us booked and half can't get a room since they've run out of rooms. But then there is the issue of getting everyone's money together for a mass booking, how does it work for the National? Is one trusted person given the responsibility of handling everyone's money?

[throttlemeister]

Mid to late June would be best. Not as hot as July/August and rates are a bit lower. I've never found a pass closed that time of year yet, at least not due to snow.

That depends very much on where you want to go. The Dolomites passes are pretty much open almost year round, however if you go mid June the higher passes like Furka, Susten, Stelvio and most French passes are still closed. It is very rare that they are open that early. Last year, most passes didn't open until the first week of July.

From my experience best is late June or early September. Typically good weather everywhere in the Alps, nice temps and not crowded with tourists.

Also keep in mind, 20C down the valley means below freezing on top of the passes, so I personally prefer full summer down below to have bearable temps in summer gear on top.

[throttlemeister]

Your suggestion of all booking individually would work but the worry would be making sure that everyone involved booked around the same time to be sure we didn't end up with a situation of half of us booked and half can't get a room since they've run out of rooms. But then there is the issue of getting everyone's money together for a mass booking, how does it work for the National? Is one trusted person given the responsibility of handling everyone's money?

One person can book; most European hotels do not require advance payment to make reservations, but they will charge a no-show at full rate, unless you cancel your reservation well (a few weeks) in advance.

[dm_gsxr]

I don't think I've ever been quoted so many times in a post
All very valid points and exactly the way I travel myself, I've never travelled as part of a big group before so it is the group thing that I don't know what the best way of doing it is...

Your suggestion of all booking individually would work but the worry would be making sure that everyone involved booked around the same time to be sure we didn't end up with a situation of half of us booked and half can't get a room since they've run out of rooms. But then there is the issue of getting everyone's money together for a mass booking, how does it work for the National? Is one trusted person given the responsibility of handling everyone's money?

We have set locations and identify likely areas. We contact them and let them know we have a group coming and based on recent gatherings, they should expect 50 to 75 folks. The folks coming make their own arrangements since some like to camp, others will locate a cheap motel and others will stay at the "resort".

(see, quoted again ).

Carl

[Ant]

One person can book; most European hotels do not require advance payment to make reservations, but they will charge a no-show at full rate, unless you cancel your reservation well (a few weeks) in advance.

  I knew that... of course I knew that... I live here and travel in Europe regularly...
I need coffee  

[Global Rider]

That depends very much on where you want to go. The Dolomites passes are pretty much open almost year round, however if you go mid June the higher passes like Furka, Susten, Stelvio and most French passes are still closed. It is very rare that they are open that early. Last year, most passes didn't open until the first week of July.

Well I've been everywhere in the Alps during the month of June (for 13 straight years) and they've all been open...at least the ones I happen to cross. Maybe I just got lucky...although for that many years? And those that weren't open were closed due to heavy rain causing an earth slide.

Last year may have been an exception. They didn't have snow like that in 20 years. I was there last June...got through every pass I happen to drive over and since I'm not on-line while enroute, its not like I picked and chose.

I know I wouldn't stay beyond the middle of July. I already noticed an increase in traffic after the first week of July.

[greench440]

I did mean east. Penserjoch, Jaufenpass, Gavia, Stilfserjoch, Timmelsjoch, Umbrial.....

[Ant]

I did mean east.

I vote that greench doesn't navigate

[dm_gsxr]

I vote that greench doesn't navigate

All in favor?

*Aye*



Carl

[greench440]

AAAARRRGGGGHHH!!!!  That's why I use a GPS  

[Global Rider]

I did mean east. Penserjoch, Jaufenpass, Gavia, Stilfserjoch, Timmelsjoch, Umbrial.....

Yup, I can see I'll have to lend you my GPS (which by the way, I don't use for navigation).  

[throttlemeister]

Well I've been everywhere in the Alps during the month of June (for 13 straight years) and they've all been open...at least the ones I happen to cross. Maybe I just got lucky...although for that many years? And those that weren't open were closed due to heavy rain causing an earth slide.

Last year may have been an exception. They didn't have snow like that in 20 years. I was there last June...got through every pass I happen to drive over and since I'm not on-line while enroute, its not like I picked and chose.

I know I wouldn't stay beyond the middle of July. I already noticed an increase in traffic after the first week of July.

Well, we must ride different passes. I go to the Alps every year too and have done so for years and years, typically late June and it is always hit or miss for the highest ones (2400m and up). So far I always got lucky, in that most of the times the passes opened up the week before I left on my trip.

That also means, that in the case of Switzerland/Austria/Dolomites, if you don't do the big ones Furka/Susten/Bernard/Stelvio, you're home free. The rest are under say 2200m, and while very entertaining to ride, not high enough to not clear early.

You definitely do not want to go anywhere near there after say the first week of July. Vacation madness starts in all surrounding countries and it is like mass movement of people.

[Global Rider]

Well, we must ride different passes. I go to the Alps every year too and have done so for years and years, typically late June and it is always hit or miss for the highest ones (2400m and up).

Well TM, proof is in the pics...

May 24th (Grossglockner - >2504m)


June 07th (Stelvio - 2758m)...clear pass and roads...


June 14th (Edelweissspitze - 2571m)... hey! no snow...


June 24th (Col de l'Iseran - 2770m)...snow is long gone...


In fact without snow on the peaks to provide some contrast, mountain peaks can look a bit boring. June is the month to go otherwise everything looks burnt.

[throttlemeister]

No offense, but despite your claims at least the last 5 years that has not been possible on most of mentioned passes. Not until late June. As in last week or so. Of course you can get lucky, but I wouldn't count on it. And looking at your pics, they have been taken several years ago if I am not mistaken.

And I would NEVER even suggest people to go there early June when they have to spend a lot of money to go where they have likely never been before, and most likely will not go again in a while and take that much of a chance to have their trip of a lifetime fucked up by passes being closed due to snow.

[Ant]

Hey come on guys, lets keep this discussion nice and civil eh?
The alternatives to the Alps are perhaps the Pyrennees? There are plenty of locations to investigate, especially if we're talking any decent length of time. Travel around, France is beautiful even if you're not in the mountains. There is plenty of scenery in Europe to fill a tour without worrying one or two passes being open...

I know I for one will be taking at least 2 or 3 weeks off work and meandering down through France to whatever rendezvous we decide for the meet up itself!! (so anyone is welcome to join me and start in the UK)  

[throttlemeister]

We are being civil, we're just not in agreement this time.  

[Ant]

We are being civil, we're just not in agreement this time.  

[Global Rider]

And I would NEVER even suggest people to go there early June when they have to spend a lot of money to go where they have likely never been before, and most likely will not go again in a while and take that much of a chance to have their trip of a lifetime fucked up by passes being closed due to snow.

Neither would I. Thats why I am suggesting mid June onwards, and no later than mid July as the end of the tour. Mind you I have more pics of Stelvio taken in 2003 and 2007, both times no snow and around June 20th.

Anyways, higher does not mean better. The road and how interesting it is plays a far greater role in how interesting a pass is.

So TM, roll one up and light it up. Its legal in Holland!

[throttlemeister]

Neither would I. Thats why I am suggesting mid June onwards, and no later than mid July as the end of the tour. Mind you I have more pics of Stelvio taken in 2003 and 2007, both times no snow and around June 20th.

Anyways, higher does not mean better. The road and how interesting it is plays a far greater role in how interesting a pass is.

So TM, roll one up and light it up. Its legal in Holland!

Hey, I didn't say higher is better. I said depending on where you want to go.

And it's not that interesting when you are allowed to.  

[stefrrr]

Hey come on guys, lets keep this discussion nice and civil eh?
The alternatives to the Alps are perhaps the Pyrennees? There are plenty of locations to investigate, especially if we're talking any decent length of time. Travel around, France is beautiful even if you're not in the mountains. There is plenty of scenery in Europe to fill a tour without worrying one or two passes being open...

I know I for one will be taking at least 2 or 3 weeks off work and meandering down through France to whatever rendezvous we decide for the meet up itself!! (so anyone is welcome to join me and start in the UK)  

Ant is banned because...

Shoot, wrong thread.

Depending on when this turns out to be, I may join you for that. I know one other STNer who might also. (You know who you are...) Especially with the price I found in England for rentals. Although if I were to do something for that long, maybe I'd consider finding a reliable bike to buy cheap and ride around. Hmmmm... Uh-oh. This could be trouble - my sister would kill me if I go on a grand european adventure without her.

[Orson]

The alternatives to the Alps are perhaps the Pyrennees? There are plenty of locations to investigate, especially if we're talking any decent length of time. Travel around, France is beautiful even if you're not in the mountains. There is plenty of scenery in Europe to fill a tour without worrying one or two passes being open...

another reason I think the south of France rewls  

the weather  

roads, weather, food...is there anything else?  

[greench440]

roads, weather, food...is there anything else? 

Drink?

[throttlemeister]

another reason I think the south of France rewls  

the weather  

roads, weather, food...is there anything else?  

Actually...

Dolomites have always good weather.
Roads are typically better there than in France.
Italian food is better than French food.
You don't need to deal with arrogant French bastards. (ducking for any french members here)

Need I go on?

[Orson]

Roads are typically better there than in France.

actually, for all their faults, the French build the best roads in the world  

billiard table smooth, well marked, and perfect, constant radius curves  

Alpine roads take a beating from the harsh weather.

[Ant]

Actually the only arrogant French are the Parisians, the only time any other Frenchman gets shirty is when you assume that you can just speak English to them. If you make the attempt to speak French then so long as you're not in Paris they're a lovely bunch of people. Even the rest of France dislike the Parisians  

[Ralf]

Actually the only arrogant French are the Parisians, the only time any other Frenchman gets shirty is when you assume that you can just speak English to them. If you make the attempt to speak French then so long as you're not in Paris they're a lovely bunch of people. Even the rest of France dislike the Parisians  

Actually, I've only had good experiences in Paris with the locals always being cordial. In Nizza/Nice, I had a lady at the hotel insult my (admittedly poor) French. Also in the Alsace I've encountered rudeness several times, but that's not my problem   Overall, I feel very comfortable abroad and get along well with the locals.  

[throttlemeister]

I was just yanking chains. Most French are very nice, provided you make an attempt to speak French.

[Ant]

And that ladies and gentlemen is the universal language that must never be forgotten

[Ralf]

And that ladies and gentlemen is the universal language that must never be forgotten

Cheers!  

[Orson]

And that ladies and gentlemen is the universal language that must never be forgotten

speaking of which...if you can't quaff at least 4 pints in an English pub they call you a girl's blouse.

whut's up wit dat?

 

[Ant]

So anyway... back on topic (organising STNers is like herding sheep    )

Lets assume that we're organising this shindig ourselves and therefore we're doing it next summer some time? Is this a safe assumption?

Right, now then, using June -> August as a guide time when would people be available for a meet up? And how long would people be planning on spending over here? These things obviously influence where we go and what we can do, of course plans will revolve around the people staying the longest but it's worth trying to get most people involved with the best routes.

So could people who are interested in this trip please post:

1.) Availability between June and August 2008
2.) How long you'd be wanting to spend for the "main" portion of the trip. This means the time spent at the primary destination (Italy as it stands at the moment). For anyone interested in starting the trip elsewhere in Europe then exclude that time. This helps us figure out what can be seen and done for the majority of people who would just be going to the one location.

The hard core who are interested can then work out plans for the rest of Europe if they want to meet up and do it as a group or just make their own way to the main resort.

[Ant]

speaking of which...if you can't quaff at least 4 pints in an English pub they call you a girl's blouse.

whut's up wit dat?

 

Errr... not quite sure what the question is here... You are a big girl's blouse if you can't drink 4 pints!!  

[Orson]

Right, now then, using June -> August as a guide time when would people be available for a meet up?

I usually try to go from mid-May to mid-June before the heat of summer arrives...also, the kidlets are still in school  

I'm planning on Normandy & Britany next year so, feasibly, I could swing thru the Dolomites for a few days on my way back to Parma near the end of my trip.

Orson (up to 3 pints in a sitting)

 

[throttlemeister]

July & August should not be considered, unless you enjoy trawling behind trailers and rv's. I'd say suggest June or September.

2 weeks would be max for me.

And anyone who can drink more than 1 pint or even finish one for that matter of that stuff they call beer in England is a hero to me.  

[Ant]

fine, May -> September is the new "range".
I've always been to France in May/June but as well, but then I've never been to the Alps so the whole passes being open etc problem rears it's ugly head again. August would be very hot and very busy I agree.
Like I said, at this point I'm just trying to get a feel for when people are available and how long they want to spend. Then we can bash out a rough time for the trip itself.


When are you heading back through the area Orson?

[dm_gsxr]

With sufficient notification, we can be available in the time frame noted. I'm thinking two weeks is maximum as well.

Carl

[Orson]

When are you heading back through the area Orson?

dunno really  

I may get a short ride in Italy or the UK this fall (hoping).

[garry]

I've dreamed of a riding vacation in Europe, but suspect the costs are daunting. Can/has anyone come up with a rough estimate of what we're looking at? I'm guessing it will quickly zoom over $3000 per person for a week trip plus travel days.

[Orson]

I've always been to France in May/June but as well, but then I've never been to the Alps so the whole passes being open etc problem rears it's ugly head again.

While it's true that the highest passes remain closed until July, there are still a lot of other great, scenic roads to ride at lower elevations.

besides, while the Stelvio might look all cuddly and cute in pictures...it's a lot like work riding it  

unless you like slamming through the gears and working yer brakes 900 times in 15 kilometers  

[Orson]

Can/has anyone come up with a rough estimate of what we're looking at?

See Global Rider's thread here for info on costs.

[Ant]

I've dreamed of a riding vacation in Europe, but suspect the costs are daunting. Can/has anyone come up with a rough estimate of what we're looking at? I'm guessing it will quickly zoom over $3000 per person for a week trip plus travel days.

As Orson pointed out Global Rider's thread is a good guide to pricing. The main cost for you guys over the pond is going to be air fare and bike hire... The rest depends how salubrious you expect the accomodation to be and the way we eat!  

[Global Rider]

Actually...

Dolomites have always good weather.

True!  

Actually...

Roads are typically better there than in France.

Possibly. But another reason to ride the Dolomites and the surrounding area is the high concentration of great riding.

Actually...

Italian food is better than French food.

Absolutely! Remember also that some of it is Austrian...in Süd Tirol...which is where the Dolomites are basically.

Actually...

You don't need to deal with arrogant French bastards. (ducking for any french members here)

What is it about the French? I mean, do they hate life? I've spent some time in France and more recently in Corsica, and generally, I've found them quite miserable compared to other areas I've toured in.

While atop the Nassfeld Pass this past June, I came across a group of motorcycles with yellow plates...I thought they were Dutch. So I struck up a conversation in English since a lot of Dutch people speak English quite well. Well incredibly they were from France...a long way from home and a rare sight that far east in Europe. So the rider asked if I spoke French, which I do well enough to hold simple conversations. So we switched to French for a while, but knowing how the French are stubborn about wanting you to speak their language when in France, even though they may speak English, I chose to switch to German since I am fluent in that...after all, we were in Austria! Lucky for them, one of the French riders spoke German (or else they would have surely not ventured into a foreign country). The first rider walked away with an attitude...well buddy, the world doesn't revolve around France...or the USA.

Need I go on?

Not really. The Dolomites it is even though I won't be there.

[Global Rider]

As Orson pointed out Global Rider's thread is a good guide to pricing.

Keep in mind that the US$ versus Euro has changed since I posted that article. But the cost comparison will always be the same in that you can very easily go on a self-guided tour for half the organized tour rate. But you do have to carry your own luggage up to your room (inside joke).    

Talking about luggage and rider's concerns that they won't have enough room or a support vehicle to carry their excess luggage, if you are carting that much luggage, you're doing something seriously wrong. I'm on the road there for a month when in the Alps with just my motorcycle luggage and have room to spare. Motorcycle rental agencies will usually always hold your airline luggage while you are on tour.

[Ant]

Keep in mind that the US$ versus Euro has changed since I posted that article. But the cost comparison will always be the same in that you can very easily go on a self-guided tour for half the organized tour rate. But you do have to carry your own luggage up to your room (inside joke).    

Yeah I'm in the process of putting together a spreadsheet with updated exchange rates and fuel prices now to give people an idea of the potential cost.

Talking about luggage and rider's concerns that they won't have enough room or a support vehicle to carry their excess luggage, if you are carting that much luggage, you're doing something seriously wrong.

   

[Global Rider]

Yeah I'm in the process of putting together a spreadsheet with updated exchange rates and fuel prices now to give people an idea of the potential cost.

This past June 2007...just a few of my fill-ups...price per liter.

BAT A8/A81: Aral Untimate 100 €1.514
Canazei (I): Agip BluSuper 98 €1.394
Hermagor (A): OMV Super 100 €1.312
Rovereto (I): Shell V-Power 100 €1.537
Heiterwang (A): BP Super 95 €1.204

If one is riding 350 kms per day (a good day in the twisties), count on about US$40 to 50 per day in gas.

Currency Converter...
http://www.xe.com/ucc/

[Aero]

Since relocating from the UK to Canada I have been missing those European trips that I used to make, so I am definitely interested.

Several years ago I read about a group of British members of the BSA owners club renting a sea container and shipping their bikes to New Zealand for a few weeks touring there. Sounds like a great way to ship bikes overseas if there are enough to fill a container, which from the responses to this thread sounds quite do-able. I did briefly investigate this last year but didn't have enough time to spend on it, but I think it could be worthy of more investigation. It must be way cheaper than renting a dozen or so bikes for a couple of weeks. Anyone here in the shipping business?

[stefrrr]

That's not a bad idea - Maybe someone here can offer some insight into this possibility. If not, I'm sure a little googling will get us some info...

[greench440]

Alpine riding is pretty hard on bikes, I'd much rather thrash a rental    Shipping your own bike also brings along paperwork and insurance headaches.

[dm_gsxr]

I agree. Besides, how am I going to try different bikes

Carl

[throttlemeister]

Alpine riding is pretty hard on bikes, I'd much rather thrash a rental    Shipping your own bike also brings along paperwork and insurance headaches.

It's only hard if you attempt to park it over the edge, in which case you typically have other things to worry about than your bike...

[Global Rider]

It must be way cheaper than renting a dozen or so bikes for a couple of weeks.

Aero, shipping a bike over is really only worth it if you are going to be there a month or more. Two weeks? I'd definitely say: "not worth it".

[stefrrr]

I just did a search for "ride motorcycle europe dolomites" and everything came back with photos of endless switchbacks. Is that what the dolomites are like?

Where would you go for relaxing twisties or tighter sweepers? The extremely technical 180 switchbacks just aren't that much fun for me. I'd rather something still curvy, but less hairpin. Anybody?

[dm_gsxr]

Switchbacks implies decent views though. I'd be more inclined to good views since good roads are everywhere

Carl

[Orson]

Where would you go for relaxing twisties or tighter sweepers? The extremely technical 180 switchbacks just aren't that much fun for me. I'd rather something still curvy, but less hairpin. Anybody?

The south of France has the best "motorcycle" roads in Europe in my opinion.

Fast, smooth, and constant radius curves...fantastic riding.

I agree with you. A few switchbacks are ok...but when you do 72 in 10 kilometers, it gets to be a little like work  

I prefer my average speed to be a little higher.

That said, there are normal roads in and around the Dolomites. Maybe the reason all your Dolomite pictures have switchbacks is because, as dmgsxr points out, that's where the most breathtaking scenery is.

[Global Rider]

Where would you go for relaxing twisties or tighter sweepers? The extremely technical 180 switchbacks just aren't that much fun for me. I'd rather something still curvy, but less hairpin. Anybody?

Where? Everywhere between the passes. Really, there is a mix of all kind of roads in the Dolomites.

This is up the road from Canazei...

[stefrrr]

Switchbacks implies decent views though. I'd be more inclined to good views since good roads are everywhere

Carl

Everywhere... except Floriduh!  

I'm glad to hear that there are fun roads as well as the technical roads with excellent views.

My experience with the latter is that there is little time for enjoyment of the views because you never get to stop to enjoy them, and you're concentrating so hard while riding that you don't really get to see it. That's ok for a little while, until it starts to seem like work...

A little bit of both would be nice.  

This picture looks loverly...

[throttlemeister]

If you don't consider the technical bits fun, don't go to the Alps. It's that simple. Go to S. France and stay west of the Loire river, or Germany's Black Forest or one of the hundreds of other places I personally find boring.

That said, I have yet to find a person that didn't love riding the Alps, so maybe you should keep your reservation on hold until after you visited and actually been there.

[Ralf]

If you don't consider the technical bits fun, don't go to the Alps. It's that simple. Go to S. France and stay west of the Loire river, or Germany's Black Forest or one of the hundreds of other places I personally find boring.

That said, I have yet to find a person that didn't love riding the Alps, so maybe you should keep your reservation on hold until after you visited and actually been there.

Throttlemeister, I must say that I agree 100% with everything you've said so far (except maybe the bit about the Black Forest being boring ) and think you're right on the money with your assessment of the Alps  

[Orson]

I'm sure some people enjoyed the Spanish Inquisition too  

There is a bit of similarity between medeival torture devices and roads that have you slamming down into first while hard on the brakes.

except during the Inquisition, they didn't sell patches and pins when they were finished with you  

[Ant]

Everywhere... except Floriduh!  

I'm glad to hear that there are fun roads as well as the technical roads with excellent views.

My experience with the latter is that there is little time for enjoyment of the views because you never get to stop to enjoy them, and you're concentrating so hard while riding that you don't really get to see it. That's ok for a little while, until it starts to seem like work...

A little bit of both would be nice.  

This picture looks loverly...

Stefrrr, if you're planning on getting your bike in the UK and then travelling down then you can see a lot of the nice sweeping areas through Central and Southern France on the journey up/down. Then the base camp approach for 3 or 4 days in the Alps gives everyone an opportunity to see those, though I will admit to feeling the same way as you - two weeks of riding technical twisties doesn't sound ideal to me. A few days would be great and then more sightseeing and travelling around the South of France (my spiritual home I've decided  )

Don't forget, France is only 700 miles from tip to tip (admittedly right through the middle) - it's pretty easy to see lots of different places in a relatively short space of time. Though as others have said, it's not the same as spending time in a single area. It depends whether you want a "sampler" trip and see lots and lots of different places or whether there is a particular place you want to look at.


I think this differing of opinion on whether twisties are fun or whether sweeping roads through rural areas are fun is a very good argument for the 3 day meetup and then people peel off into their own groups or tour solo before and after the official "meet". The meet is in the Alps for a few days and we ride the twisties, its certainly something I do want to do - just not constantly. So we meet, eat, drink and ride for a few days and if a contingent wants to explore France some more then thats great. If you want a 2 week holiday you can still pack it full of stuff even if the official meet is only 4 days or so.

I for one have absolutely no plans of going home for at least 2 weeks!!!

[Global Rider]

There is a bit of similarity between medeival torture devices and roads that have you slamming down into first while hard on the brakes.

Orson, some of us (at least I) know you dislike the serious twisties for the above reasons, but they don't go on and on forever in the Dolomites. As you know there are some sweepers mixed in even amongst the approaches and descents to the passes themselves.

Personally, I like serious twisties and the very remote roads in the Alps. To date, that level of constant transition (braking, leaning, etc) over all my years there has improved my riding immensely. But then, I wouldn't be doing it on anything other than a larger dual purpose with an upright seating position and wide handlebars. I'd hate to be under hard braking going on a 15% downhill on a Ducati 998 or similar all day long. No wonder these guys take so many breaks. I remember what my R65 with narrow European bars was like after an 11 pass day. Picture Popeye arms!

Anyone renting, I'd suggest something like a DL650 or F650...or if you want more power/torque, a Varadero or R1200 GS. You really don't need a lot of bike in the Alps.

[Orson]

Orson, some of us (at least I) know you dislike the serious twisties for the above reasons, but they don't go on and on forever in the Dolomites. As you know there are some sweepers mixed in even amongst the approaches and descents to the passes themselves.

I'm just yankin' chains  

except about Stelvio....that is a torture rack  

[Global Rider]

I'm just yankin' chains  

except about Stelvio....that is a torture rack  

I didn't take it as such.  

Yup, the Stelvio with its 84 hairpins was a bit of a workout this past June, especially when you're trying to make tracks towards a town (Serfaus) for a room for the night. I never book ahead.

[stefrrr]

All right, how does this sound?

3 days of riding in the dolomites, either with a "base camp" that we return to every day or planning on staying in different places every night. One-two days of riding to S. France, then 3 days of riding in S. France. This gets us up to 7-8 days of scheduled riding. Those who want to stick around after or show up early, can.

Benefits of "base camp.": People with similar riding styles can ride with those that suit their style, and choose roads that appeal to them. Disadvantages? We'd have to be careful about where we choose to stay so that we have enough to do for three days. I can't really see that being a problem though.

Benefits of "touring" (who'd a thunk it?): We'd see more. Plus this is sport-touring.net  
Disadvantages? If we decided to plan ahead we'd be riding by a schedule. If we didn't, getting everyone on board for where to go the next day would be a pain in the arse.

3 days      in the Dolomites
1-2 days   travel to S. France
3 days     in S. France
7-8          days total

[Ant]

All right, how does this sound?

3 days of riding in the dolomites, either with a "base camp" that we return to every day or planning on staying in different places every night. One-two days of riding to S. France, then 3 days of riding in S. France. This gets us up to 7-8 days of scheduled riding. Those who want to stick around after or show up early, can.

Benefits of "base camp.": People with similar riding styles can ride with those that suit their style, and choose roads that appeal to them. Disadvantages? We'd have to be careful about where we choose to stay so that we have enough to do for three days. I can't really see that being a problem though.

Benefits of "touring" (who'd a thunk it?): We'd see more. Plus this is sport-touring.net  
Disadvantages? If we decided to plan ahead we'd be riding by a schedule. If we didn't, getting everyone on board for where to go the next day would be a pain in the arse.

3 days      in the Dolomites
1-2 days   travel to S. France
3 days     in S. France
7-8          days total

 

Gets my vote, combines the Alpine twistys (Sport) with the roads of France (Touring). Everyone is happy   If people want to do more or less of each activity then it allows plenty of scope for individualising the trip while still having it as a "meet".

[Global Rider]

1-2 days   travel to S. France

2 days...if you're lucky.

If you want to make the ride to France interesting, from the Dolomites, you'd likely be taking: (we're assuming Gavia and Stelvio has been done while in the Dolomites)

Passo Tonale, Passo d'Aprica, Passo del Bernina, Malojapass (maybe Julier and Albula loop while there) to Chiavenna, Splügenpass, Passo del San Bernardino, Lukmanierpass, Oberalppass, Furkapass (maybe Grimsel, Susten, St. Gottardo, Nufenenpass loop while there) to Martingy and over into France...Grand & Petit San Bernard, Col de l'Iseran, Col du Galibier, Col d'Izoard, Col de Vars, Col de la Bonette, etc. and continue south.

Overnights in Andermatt and Barcelonette (they claim to have record # of days of sunshine).

Then you have all those gorge roads to ride north of Nice.

[Ant]

... to Chiavenna, Splügenpass, Passo del San Bernardino, ...

That just sounds like it should have a NSFW prefix
Ahem, I'll go back into my immature child corner  

[Ralf]

2 days...if you're lucky.

I would tend to agree. I think many underestimate the time it takes to travel through the Alps and therefore I would suggest to err on the conversative side when planning, but that's just me  

[stefrrr]

So who is coming that is (somewhat) familiar with these areas? Global rider? Orson? Ralf? Who else?

It might be good to have two or three different groups with one or two leads each who know the area. That way, say on the trip from the dolomites, we can have set meeting places for our nights' stays, but otherwise take separate routes. It looks like there will be a good representation of different riding styles in those of you familiar with the area.

Would those of you who are familiar with the area be willing to lend your time and expertise to help make it happen? It shouldn't involve too much; we're all able to read a map or GPS, so finding routes would still be a group effort, but that way each group would have expert advisors.

Please check in if you're willing!

So we're looking at:
3 days     riding in dolomites
2-3 days  riding to S. France
3 days    riding in S. France.
8-9 days  riding total.

We could shave off one day in the Dolomites, S. France, or both, to get the time down.

Time for a poll!  

[Orson]

All right, how does this sound?

3 days of riding in the dolomites, either with a "base camp" that we return to every day or planning on staying in different places every night. One-two days of riding to S. France, then 3 days of riding in S. France. This gets us up to 7-8 days of scheduled riding. Those who want to stick around after or show up early, can.

I think yer pushin' it by trying to make it to the south of France from the Dolomites.

a closer option might be the Italian lake district...an easy half day ride from the Dolomites.

Bellagio is a beautiful town and as mentioned before, there's the world famous Moto Guzzi factory. I'm not sure about the availability of factory tours. You may have to book ahead but there is the wonderful Moto Guzzi museum on site.

[stefrrr]

Curses.

Someone else's turn.

What are the names of some towns that might be nice to visit, and which regions are they in? Particularly the Dolomites.

[Global Rider]

So who is coming that is (somewhat) familiar with these areas? Global rider? Orson? Ralf? Who else?

Somewhat familiar?   Who needs maps?  

I will be in the Dolomites region mid June to maybe the third week.

Note, I won't be part of any bookings though as I'll be blowing through. I'm not much for group rides, unless some would like a tour guide for a few days.

[Orson]

What are the names of some towns that might be nice to visit, and which regions are they in? Particularly the Dolomites.

One of my favorites has always been Merano.

Not quite in the Dolomites but in the Sud-Tyrol.

It was a spa town in the Austro-Hungarian Empire and was favored by the Empress herself. It still has vestiges of that bygone era.

Cortina D'Ampezzo is a popular ski resort. Giacomo Agostini is said to own a home there. Lots of hotel rooms available. Corvara is another one in the Dolomites.

[stefrrr]

Note, I won't be part of any bookings though as I'll be blowing through. I'm not much for group rides, unless some would like a tour guide for a few days.

That's kind of what I was hoping for. Originally this idea was posted as a suggestion to take a guided tour. Instead of doing everything through a tour company, we could take advantage of the wealth of knowledge that our members have. If you're willing to be taken advantage of.  

[stefrrr]

One of my favorites has always been Merano.

Not quite in the Dolomites but in the Sud-Tyrol.

It was a spa town in the Austro-Hungarian Empire and was favored by the Empress herself. It still has vestiges of that bygone era.

Cortina D'Ampezzo is a popular ski resort. Giacomo Agostini is said to own a home there. Lots of hotel rooms available. Corvara is another one in the Dolomites.

All righty. Now we're getting somewhere. I'm off to google maps!

Then I really ought to go run some errands...  

[stefrrr]

One last thing - depending on how many of us there are, I like the idea of staying in smaller hotels or rooming houses. It may be less expensive and more interesting. Just throwing that out there...

[photomd]

Right now two of us are planning to ride over there sometime in June of next year. I was hoping for this September, but The Wife finally admitted it just doesn't appeal to her.    Oh well, better to find out now.

The plan and route are pretty loose and we're also trying to nail down finances. I think we are going to do what I now refer to as "The Alex Plan": print out B&B's/Hotels, get a map and head south from Frankfort with no real plans until we fly out one week later...kinda sounds like fun.  

It would be fun to meet up.  

[Migs]

Hi guys, I could be up for this one. (By the way, I used to be Arbitrator but my account died through lack of use )

If I may throw another spanner in the works, you could nip over the border into Austria or Slovenia for some nice sweepy action.
Kranjska Gora is a nice place and the 206 south outa town is to die for

Both of these areas are very convenient from the Dolomites and an interesting circular route could be planned to take them both in.

Keep the creative juices flowing  

[Scoop]

This is interesting me.  I want to put my name in as a potential attendee, depending on timing, final schedule and cost.  Since I have never been there, I won't have any input, but may be able to be a part of the craziness!

[Global Rider]

If you're willing to be taken advantage of.  

Well I won't be picking up any bars of soap.  

One last thing - depending on how many of us there are, I like the idea of staying in smaller hotels or rooming houses. It may be less expensive and more interesting. Just throwing that out there...

I prefer to stay in smaller towns where things are a bit quieter, yet still have some services. Cortina is the biggest town in the area...surely more night life, but possibly noisier and probably more expensive. I really liked La Fontana in Corvara; a popular motorcycle friendly hotel. I also stayed in Canazei, at the base of the Sella and Pordoi Passes.

If I may throw another spanner in the works, you could nip over the border into Austria or Slovenia for some nice sweepy action. Kranjska Gora is a nice place and the 206 south outa town is to die for

I was taking day trips from Austria into Slovenia this past June. I remember the 206 well over the Vrsic pass, cobblestoned hairpins if I remember correctly...and then back over the Predil Pass, Sella Nevea and Sella di Cereschiatis to the Nassfeld Pass and Tröpolach where I stayed.

The plan and route are pretty loose and we're also trying to nail down finances. I think we are going to do what I now refer to as "The Alex Plan": print out B&B's/Hotels, get a map and head south from Frankfort with no real plans until we fly out one week later...kinda sounds like fun.  

From Frankfurt, the 5 will get you right down to Basel and the 2 to Andermatt. All major autobahns and boring, but it will get you to the Alps in a short day. Do you have a GPS and a PDA?

[Global Rider]

I think many underestimate the time it takes to travel through the Alps and therefore I would suggest to err on the conversative side when planning, but that's just me  

How true and I should mention, a 400 km day (240 miles) is a long day on the narrower backroads, and if you do that 5 days in a row, you'll be quite beat and start making mistakes. Then if you try to make time on the more major roads, you'll be bogged down in slow going traffic.

A ride from Rovereto, Italy to Serfaus (near Landeck, Austria) via backroads through Molveno, Tonale, Gavia, Stelvio and Reschen took me all day with photo stops. That was a mere 403 kms (~240 miles).

The heat will wear you out as well if you are wearing an Aerostich or similar. It was 34°C in Klagenfurt (Austria) mid June...of course towns are always hotter than the mountain passes (about 20°C on that same day).

[photomd]

From Frankfurt, the 5 will get you right down to Basel and the 2 to Andermatt. All major autobahns and boring, but it will get you to the Alps in a short day. Do you have a GPS and a PDA?

J'ai une GPS, mais je n'achete pas "Garmin City Navigator Europe": trop chere. Pourqoi?

yeah...my french sucks.

[Global Rider]

J'ai une GPS, mais je n'achete pas "Garmin City Navigator Europe": trop chere. Pourqoi?

Cost, thats exactly why I'm still using Europe Roads & Recreation. That mapping package does not autorouting...not an issue, since I never use that feature...hell, I don't even use my GPS for navigation.

I have a few hotel waypoints (for the GPS) along with addresses on an Excel spreadsheet (for the PDA).

[Ralf]

So who is coming that is (somewhat) familiar with these areas? Global rider? Orson? Ralf? Who else?

Unfortunately, as much I would like to, I can't commit due to a 2 and 4-year-old at home and other obligations. However, it would be nice to meet some of the names behind the keyboards (Shhted, are you planning on coming?), so I would try and swing by for a day or two depending on circumstances (like I did for the alpineroads.com meet  acouple of weeks ago, where I drove from Munich to Livigno Friday afternoon and back home Saturday morning)  

[Ralf]

One of my favorites has always been Merano.

Not quite in the Dolomites but in the Sud-Tyrol.

It was a spa town in the Austro-Hungarian Empire and was favored by the Empress herself. It still has vestiges of that bygone era.

Cortina D'Ampezzo is a popular ski resort. Giacomo Agostini is said to own a home there. Lots of hotel rooms available. Corvara is another one in the Dolomites.

Meran is indeed very nice. Cortina D'Amepezzo is quite expensive, especially as it was previously the host city for the winter Olympics years ago.

[Ralf]

Hi guys, I could be up for this one. (By the way, I used to be Arbitrator but my account died through lack of use )

If I may throw another spanner in the works, you could nip over the border into Austria or Slovenia for some nice sweepy action.
Kranjska Gora is a nice place and the 206 south outa town is to die for

Both of these areas are very convenient from the Dolomites and an interesting circular route could be planned to take them both in.

Keep the creative juices flowing  

Slovenia is one of my favorite places. It's really just a hop, skip and a jump away from the Sellarunde and might be a nice, less overrun alternative to some lesser know roads.

[Ralf]

I prefer to stay in smaller towns where things are a bit quieter, yet still have some services. Cortina is the biggest town in the area...surely more night life, but possibly noisier and probably more expensive. I really liked La Fontana in Corvara; a popular motorcycle friendly hotel. I also stayed in Canazei, at the base of the Sella and Pordoi Passes.

Strategically, Canazei would be a very wise location. I also like Brixen, which is located about 50 km south of the Brennerpass and 40 km north of Bozen:

[dm_gsxr]

Sounds great to me stefrrr. Thanks for picking this up and running with it.

I know Rita wants to go to Europe. With this much warning I know we can get our stuff together for a trip next year.

It'll be great to get outside NA and do some sight-seeing.

Carl

[Aero]

Alpine riding is pretty hard on bikes, I'd much rather thrash a rental    Shipping your own bike also brings along paperwork and insurance headaches.

Mine have always come back in one piece. It all depends how you ride I suppose, but personally I like to leave a good margin for error on those mountain roads. People who want to get a knee down on every bend are the ones who usually come to grief.
Whether the paperwork for shipping would be worthwhile depends on what cost savings we would have. Just thought I would throw the idea out there to see if anyone would be interested. I may end up buying a used bike in the UK and selling it before returning. I just hate throwing money at rental companies!

[Aero]

So who is coming that is (somewhat) familiar with these areas? Global rider? Orson? Ralf? Who else?

It might be good to have two or three different groups with one or two leads each who know the area. That way, say on the trip from the dolomites, we can have set meeting places for our nights' stays, but otherwise take separate routes. It looks like there will be a good representation of different riding styles in those of you familiar with the area.

Would those of you who are familiar with the area be willing to lend your time and expertise to help make it happen? It shouldn't involve too much; we're all able to read a map or GPS, so finding routes would still be a group effort, but that way each group would have expert advisors.

Please check in if you're willing!

So we're looking at:
3 days     riding in dolomites
2-3 days  riding to S. France
3 days    riding in S. France.
8-9 days  riding total.

We could shave off one day in the Dolomites, S. France, or both, to get the time down.

Time for a poll!  

I did quite a bit of riding in those areas until I moved to Canada six years ago, and I am more than willing to put my experience to use in the organisation of this trip.

I agree that a conservative mileage for each day is the way to go in the mountains. It's nothing like the superslabs which make high mileage days easy in North America. Some passes are relatively easy but some are very technical and you need to be on the ball, they can be fun and very rewarding but not very good if you want to cover lots of ground.

[stefrrr]

I was figuring around 250-300 miles per day, depending on the route. That's usually an good day in the smokies. 350 is doable, but can be tiring. 400 is pushing stupid. Less miles can mean more sightseeing.  
I haven't really looked at mileage yet because we don't know where we're going yet.    
Does that sound fairly reasonable?

I changed the poll "How long should we take" to "How long in each area." Those who are interested in coming should make their voices heard!  

If we're going to do this, I think we should have the general locations down by September or so, and details including cost by November.

Those of you who are familiar with the area, would you be willing to post up some ideas for how to spend 7 days of riding in these areas? Feel free to include what you consider "must see" attractions like the Guzzi factory.  
That can give us some more ideas for how to spend our time.

Sounds great to me stefrrr. Thanks for picking this up and running with it.

I know Rita wants to go to Europe. With this much warning I know we can get our stuff together for a trip next year.

It'll be great to get outside NA and do some sight-seeing.

Carl

Carl, what does Rita think? Are there any places she'd like to go?
I am really excited about this! My sister and I have been "planning" on going to Europe for years now. She doesn't ride though, so I figured I was going to miss out on that. It will be good if we can make this happen.

[stefrrr]

What if we just "altered" one of the Eidelweiss tours?

Ultimate Alps


High Alpine Tour


MC-Alps Challenge


Alps-Touring Center

[stefrrr]

Bike rentals Munich

Bike Rentals Madello De Lario

[dm_gsxr]

Carl, what does Rita think? Are there any places she'd like to go?
I am really excited about this! My sister and I have been "planning" on going to Europe for years now. She doesn't ride though, so I figured I was going to miss out on that. It will be good if we can make this happen.

Just pose the question to her. She's 'fungirl' here on the site. I know she's already made a few of her opinions known. I _think_ we'll fly into the base camp and spend the whole time there. She's a hiker as well as a rider (more hiker) so we'd spend some time hiking around the area as well as taking rides on the roads.

Carl

[stefrrr]

I would like to do some hiking too. If you guys want to stay in the same area, maybe instead of all this moving around stuff we should be looking for one place that is near a couple of sights (MC & non-MC) and has good roads nearby. Would you like the lake region of Italy (See Orson's ride reports) or something more mountainous?

I think the base camp idea is good since a lot of us are complete newbies to the area. I'm all for that.

[fungirl]

Since this may be a once in a lifetime trip, I'd like to make the most of it and go for at least 2 weeks, stay in cozy inns/guesthouses, mingle with the locals, get in some hiking, castles, etc...

I found this route on a http://www.bmca.com/alpine_adventure.html

They do this route in 13 days with 3 of the days non-riding.

Munich – Free day, Imst, Austria, Feldkirch, Austria, Interlaken, Switzerland, Interlaken – Free day, Andermatt, Switzerland, Zuoz, Switzerland, Riva del Garda, Italy, Arabba, Italy, Arabba - Free day
Villach, Austria, Salzburg, Austria, Munich, Germany.

It seems to hit many of the sights I'd like to see and explore.  Personally I'd like to be on the bike one day, and off the next; but that's probably not feasible on this route  

[Global Rider]

I haven't really looked at mileage yet because we don't know where we're going yet.    

You might consider getting Microsoft Autoroute 2007. It is the European equivalent of Microsoft Streets & Trips. I just bought mine a couple of weeks ago. My 2001 version was getting a bit dated. Under $40 with free shipping from Amazon USA.

[Ant]

I would like to do some hiking too. If you guys want to stay in the same area, maybe instead of all this moving around stuff we should be looking for one place that is near a couple of sights (MC & non-MC) and has good roads nearby. Would you like the lake region of Italy (See Orson's ride reports) or something more mountainous?

I think the base camp idea is good since a lot of us are complete newbies to the area. I'm all for that.

If you're planning on going down from the UK then you'll get a nice ride out of that anyway so staying put for a few days isn't a problem I guess. I'm chasing the guy at the motorbike hire place today, he didn't return my answer machine message yet!!

[stefrrr]

Uh-oh... That doesn't sound so good.  

[dm_gsxr]

Any word from the motorcycle hire place yet?

Carl

[Ant]

Any word from the motorcycle hire place yet?

Carl

Hey, yeah sorry - I've been off out riding in Scotland for the past few days  

They have the bikes that are advertised on their website, apparently they have quite a large "fleet" and if you have any special requests they will try and source a bike for you. The website details the additional costs you have to pay for being a non-UK license holder (additional 25%) and then £35 per week for riding in Europe.

When I asked them what kind of discounts they could offer he just said that I should find out what kind of numbers and duration we're talking about and then come back to him but that it is definitely "negotiable"
Other than that they seem like a nice friendly outfit and like I said, they seem quite accomodating. Once we have a better idea of what we want/need I'll be able to get more information.

[gforce]

Just got back from 4 weeks, sadly sans FJR, at wife's place in Frankfurt.  Found this (long) thread and haven't read all of it yet but the first page looks promising.  Here's the link to my post in a related thread: http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,12290.msg287599.html#new

The high point of our trip this year was a week in "Belgie," which, except for the frustration of not speaking either Dutch/Flemish or French, is a very beautiful country -- with a magnificent old racecourse, Spa-Francorchamps, in the southeast.

I'll be following this with interest going forward.

[Global Rider]

Since this may be a once in a lifetime trip, I'd like to make the most of it and go for at least 2 weeks, stay in cozy inns/guesthouses, mingle with the locals, get in some hiking, castles, etc...

If you really want to "mingle with the locals" then you are best off going on a self guided tour. On an organized tour, you end up mingling with North American riders mostly.

Personally I'd like to be on the bike one day, and off the next; but that's probably not feasible on this route  

Look for a good rental rate that only includes 2500 kms per week or less if you are only going to be riding every other day or so. You'll only be putting on about 400 kms per day in the Alps. Allround Motorradvernietung in Frankfurt seemed to have good rates, likewise for Knopf Motorradreisen in Heidelberg.

[Ralf]

You may want to look into this place in Munich. The Alps are at Munich's doorstep and this place seems to have a pretty broad selection of bikes and options.

http://www.allroundrent.de/bikes/bikes.html

[Ralf]

... and here is their contact information

http://www.allroundrent.de/index_english/index_english.html

ALLROUND
CAR & MOTORBIKE RENTAL Ltd.
Boschetsriederstr. 12
81379 Munich/Germany
See a map of our location

Tel.: 089/723 23 43
Tel.: 089/723 83 83
Fax: 089/723 10 13
Prefix 04989/ from outside of Germany
Email: info@allroundrent.de

You can also contact us using our online-form.
Please click the contact button on the menu.

Opening times:

Monday - Friday:  
09am - 06pm
Saturday:            
10am - 12pm

We´re looking forward to seeing you!

[Global Rider]

ALLROUND
CAR & MOTORBIKE RENTAL Ltd.

Ralf,

Their weekly rates look reasonable, except for the part where they only give you 1000 free kilometers for every additional week. Normally you get additional weeks at a cheaper rate because you are renting long term...cutting down on the kilometers offsets that deal negatively.

1000 kms are good for 3 medium sized day tours in the Alps...what about the other 4 days?

[Ralf]

Ralf,

Their weekly rates look reasonable, except for the part where they only give you 1000 free kilometers for every additional week. Normally you get additional weeks at a cheaper rate because you are renting long term...cutting down on the kilometers offsets that deal negatively.

1000 kms are good for 3 medium sized day tours in the Alps...what about the other 4 days?

Good point. Essentially, it looks like 2,500 kilometers for one week (7 days), but only 3,500 kilometers for two weeks. Given that a large group of riders are interested in giving their business to a rental agency, it might be wise to try and negotiate more favorable terms.

[Global Rider]

Good point. Essentially, it looks like 2,500 kilometers for one week (7 days), but only 3,500 kilometers for two weeks. Given that a large group of riders are interested in giving their business to a rental agency, it might be wise to try and negotiate more favorable terms.

Looking at the rates, one is best off just renting it one week at a time, but back to back weeks. For example, the R1150 GS is €100 cheaper each additional week but each kilometer over 1000 kms runs €0.44/km. So if you are going to ride more than 1228 kms each additional week, take the 1st week rate plan week after week.

[Mr Sunshine]

I need to read this whole thread but Aplejax and I are seriously considering hitting Europe next year in late July and do it on bikes(s).  I don't want to do a guided tour for many reasons including cost and it removes part of the adventure.

So I'm off to read this thread.  

[Mr Sunshine]

So anyway... back on topic (organising STNers is like herding sheep    )

Lets assume that we're organising this shindig ourselves and therefore we're doing it next summer some time? Is this a safe assumption?

Right, now then, using June -> August as a guide time when would people be available for a meet up? And how long would people be planning on spending over here? These things obviously influence where we go and what we can do, of course plans will revolve around the people staying the longest but it's worth trying to get most people involved with the best routes.

So could people who are interested in this trip please post:

1.) Availability between June and August 2008
2.) How long you'd be wanting to spend for the "main" portion of the trip. This means the time spent at the primary destination (Italy as it stands at the moment). For anyone interested in starting the trip elsewhere in Europe then exclude that time. This helps us figure out what can be seen and done for the majority of people who would just be going to the one location.

The hard core who are interested can then work out plans for the rest of Europe if they want to meet up and do it as a group or just make their own way to the main resort.

Available from June through September...I'll skip a race weekend to go to Europe.

As for how long in one spot....as little as possible...I want to see alot and sticking to one location kinda removes that unless there is some really good planning one can do.

[Smurfslayer]

This has caught my attention as well.  I've checked out Alex's posts, and done some other poking around.  Rental rates are pretty stout for 2 weeks.  about 1600 E for an R1200rt + gear.  

I'm looking to leave the US right coast 7/7/08, with a backup of mid June, returning before Independence day.  Right now I'm seeing flights for about $1k / person to Munich.  My goal is to surprise the one who must be obeyed (TOWMBO) with plans probably Christmas.  She's not going to be content with carving twisties for 14 consecutive days so there's going to have to be some compromise on potential destinations (for me).  It looks like 2 or 3 places in Munich and I've found one in Bern & another in Zurich.  The thing is that in 2 weeks time I've spent practically as much as I will shipping my own bike to Bremmerhaven and back...      

[Smurfslayer]

Moto Mader in Zurich:  http://www.moto-mader.ch/frameset_main.htm  (if this doesn't bring up the list, click on motorrad / miete )

I got the price list from allaround rent in Munich as well.  It's a word doc; PM if interested.

[Ant]

Bump just in case there are people getting e-mail notifications from this thread who aren't reading this one where more discussion is taking place
http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,12290.0.html

[dm_gsxr]

Heh, yep I had this one on e-mail notification although I have posted over on the other one

Carl