Triumph Rumors 08 - 200mph Hurricane Superbike and Mid-Size Rocket

[Rincewind]

Folks in England are reporting that Triumph has been testing a large superbike model.  There's talk that this is the resurrection of the Hurricane project from a few years ago.  The Hurricane project was their 200mph Busa-beater, based on a 4-cylinder.  This seems to go against their current ethos of twins and triples, but who cares?

MCN had a picture of the Hurricane on one of it's covers, but it was the same picture from years ago when the bike was being developed.  Now they have a new picture out.  



Here's the text from that pic: "We're on the hunt.  We’ve had a tip-off that a much-awaited all-new superbike is about to hit a European test track sometime soon, so we’ve sent off our snappers to track it down.  We can’t say too much at the moment in case we give the whole game away and tip-off the test team we are tracking down.   But with any luck we’ll have some cracking shots of the foreign exotica being put through its paces by a range of test riders by next Wednesday. "  The license plate number has been traced - it's a Triumph.

MCN Hurricane link

MCN is also reporting in this week's issue that a new power bike is being seen in the hills of England.  This is the 2/3-Rocket which was rumored about last year.  MCN 1500 Rocket link.  From the brief synopsis: "Also spotted is Triumph’s Harley-beater. The new British-built 1500cc twin has been spotted near their Hinkley base. The bike is is expected to be seen in the showroom in Autumn 2007."

[garry]

The bike in the pic is a 1298cc Triumph. The good lads over at T595.net have traced the license plate number down in a government database. That was a four-cylinder prototype. Maybe Triumph is considering putting out a 1300cc replacement for the Trophy to compete with bikes like the new ZX-14/Connie...

[bubba zanetti]

Oh goody !!!     ... I love a mystery  

[Schneegz]

I'm surprised that Triumph would bring back an I-4 after all the hoopla about building exclusively I-3s and I-2s.  And, as long as we're discussing Triumph rumors, where the hell is the Speed Triple 675, dammit!  

[ChuckBecker]

Oh my gosh, so much news, what to say?  I really hate the idea that Triumph would build an I4 to compete with Suzuki and Kawasaki.  Massive project, and they're putting themselves back in the same position they were in with the TT600 and 600/650 Daytona's.  If they don't come out on top, speed wise, they lose.  I don't know what the capacity limit on the 1050 engine is.  I've seen Sprint ST's showing true 160mph top speeds.  With some energetic tuning and good aeros, Triumph out to be able to get 175mph from a Daytona 1050.  Fast enough to be a contender, retain their uniqueness, far cheaper than an all-new all-different bike.

I'd much rather see that than an I-4.

As for a water cooled, parallel twin cruiser, I guess they have to do something.  I hear they're selling all the Rocket III's they can make.  But they don't have a bike to compete in the entire middle of that market.  They're going to have to pull a miracle with the styling, as tall as the Rocket III engine is...

[Snowdog]

Just remember that this comes from MotorCycle News, though MCN is more usually taken to stand for Mostly Crap & Nonsense. If Triumph made every bike they have been rumoured to be developing by MCN the factory would have to be the size of a small country.

[goodhawk]

The bit about possible Tri mini sp. triple -675 - I agree.  But - I think it'd be pretty easy to remove the Day. 675 fairing, put on the twin H'lights from speed triple, Helibars, there ya go.  Depending, of course - on the Daytona 675 intro story, I think in Motorcyclist mag, a tri guy said the 675 engine was styled to look good without fairing, even on Daytona.
I wonder about the wisdom of a high perf. big bike - is that logical? ( bigger than a new Daytona with a tuned engine from the Sp. Triple . . .)

[Mookie]

Oh my gosh, so much news, what to say?  I really hate the idea that Triumph would build an I4 to compete with Suzuki and Kawasaki.  Massive project, and they're putting themselves back in the same position they were in with the TT600 and 600/650 Daytona's.  If they don't come out on top, speed wise, they lose.  I don't know what the capacity limit on the 1050 engine is.  I've seen Sprint ST's showing true 160mph top speeds.  With some energetic tuning and good aeros, Triumph out to be able to get 175mph from a Daytona 1050.  Fast enough to be a contender, retain their uniqueness, far cheaper than an all-new all-different bike.

I'd much rather see that than an I-4.

As for a water cooled, parallel twin cruiser, I guess they have to do something.  I hear they're selling all the Rocket III's they can make.  But they don't have a bike to compete in the entire middle of that market.  They're going to have to pull a miracle with the styling, as tall as the Rocket III engine is...

The baby 675 will go at least 165 mph (according to the speedometer at least) and it's terribly unaerodynamic.  I don't think they'll have any trouble at all cracking 180 or 190 with a similarly highly tuned 1050 daytona or whatever it is they are planning.  With 1300+cc's and some good aerodynamics I'm sure they could do it, the real question is, "Why?"  

[crispiegee1]

I agree with ChuckBecker and with Mookie.  I would much rather see a triple than an inline four, lest Triumph be back in a "copy-the-Japanese bikes" mode.  The triple is a great configuration and unique to Triumph.

Mookie ponders, "The question is: Why?"  I also agree.  What does Triumph gain by building the new top speed king?  It sure wouldn't interest me, unless it was a better sport touring bike than the Sprint ST.

I disagree with you, Mookie, that the Daytona 675 is unaerodynamic... not that they couldn't make it MORE aerodynamic.  It would just end up looking fugly... like a Hayabusa!    (I keed!  I keed!)

The baby 675 will go at least 165 mph (according to the speedometer at least) and it's terribly unaerodynamic.  I don't think they'll have any trouble at all cracking 180 or 190 with a similarly highly tuned 1050 daytona or whatever it is they are planning.  With 1300+cc's and some good aerodynamics I'm sure they could do it, the real question is, "Why?"  

[ChuckBecker]

Secondly, the Triumph Hurricane is not a massive project because a lot of the research & development was already done a number of years ago.  It seems to me that it would be one of the easiest projects for them because they only need to finish it off.

Might be easy, but if any significant time has passed it could turn out to be a lot bigger job.  Not just the technology (not just engine, look at how frames are fabricated now compared to just a few years ago) developing, but the target is moving.  Granted, Triumph has had some very decent I-4's.  I just think they're better off sticking with Triples...

[bubba zanetti]

Might be easy, but if any significant time has passed it could turn out to be a lot bigger job.  Not just the technology (not just engine, look at how frames are fabricated now compared to just a few years ago) developing, but the target is moving.  Granted, Triumph has had some very decent I-4's.  I just think they're better off sticking with Triples...

Could be that they just used a four exhaust muffler to disguise a new triple and make folks think that they had brought the old bike out of mothballs.  Ok ??  Now I gotta run back to my conspiracy and coverup novel.    

[stk0308]

On the topic of speed chasing I'd like to remind you all that Triumph was the first manufacturer to tell the EU to f@ck-off with a 120hp 1200 Daytona, and never agreed to their stupid 100hp 'gentlemens agreement'.  I doubt they've agreed to the 300 kph limit either.  Something to ponder.

[bluedogok]

Could be that they just used a four exhaust muffler to disguise a new triple and make folks think that they had brought the old bike out of mothballs.  Ok ??  Now I gotta run back to my conspiracy and coverup novel.    

That is what I was thinking, use the Hurricane prototype and stuff a new triple in it for testing. If that is like the exhaust tips on the Sprint, that is just a decorative piece and why change it out for testing.

[Schneegz]

Count me in the camp that would prefer Triumph maintain their maker of twins and triples image.  However, I don't think a bored and stroked 1050 is the way to go.  I think they need a whole new engine.  I propose an in line triple exactly twice the displacement of the 675, which would yield 1350cc.  This bike would compete with the ZX-14 (ZZR1400 for those across the pond), Busa and BMW K1200S.  Triumph could then build a new Trophy based on the same engine and chassis, but with shaft drive, just as Kawasaki did with the Concourse.

What I really want from Triumph, though, are a Speed Triple and a Tiger based on the Daytona 675 engine and chassis.  I'm disappointed to not hear any news on the development of such bikes.  

[Snowdog]

The bike in question is subject to a SORN - Statutory Off Road Notice. Triumph have declared that it is off the road and so it cannot be legally used on the road.Therefore that picture was either taken inside the factory grounds or, more likely considering its in MCN, it is a four year old picture. Triumph do usually run their test bikes, suitably disguised, on the road.

Always take everything in MCN with a pinch of salt - they are renown for talking bollocks.

[forester]

Personally, I think 200+ MPH bikes are completely impractical...






























....and 100% a GREAT IDEA to produce!  Go Hinkley, GO!

[TheRedOnesAreFaster]

....the real question is, "Why?"  

The real question is "why not?"

Speed sells, folks.  Suzuki would sell zero 'Busas if they only went 120.  Kawasaki couldn't pay me to buy a fugly ZX-14 if it wouldn't be ridiculously fast.

So a "King of the Hill" speed demon makes sense- if they can pull it off.

On the other hand, I'd not be interested if it is a I4.  The world is full of cookie-cutter fours.  Triumph sold me on the Sprint because of the I3 engine and its glorious sound.

[garry]

Bikes like the Busa and ZX-14 aren't just about top speed. They're also about having an endless/effortless power available at all RPMs in a sporty bike with sane ergos. I rarely hit triple digits, but I'd love to own a ZX-14 after test riding one this past June. Handled well, good brakes, good suspension and more smooth, controllable power than you'll ever need. Great fun.

[Schneegz]

This is what the guys at T595.net came up with when they ran the plates.

Date of Liability 01 12 2006
Date of First Registration 04 12 2002
Year of Manufacture 2002
Cylinder Capacity (cc) 1298CC
CO2 Emissions Not Available
Fuel Type Petrol
Export Marker Not Applicable
Vehicle Status SORN Expired
Vehicle Colour BLACK

That is an old picture!

[crispiegee1]

I'm a broken record on this, but I'd still rather have Triumph focus their energies on building a Sprint 675 - basically a Daytona with more comfortable seat and ergos, a bit higher windscreen and more relaxed handlebars.  It would be lighter than the 1055 Sprint and more economical to run besides.

If they built that, I'd forget all other bikes.  

As cool as a Triumph hyper-GT is, it sure wouldn't be anything I'd ever consider buying.  

[Schneegz]

I'm a broken record on this, but I'd still rather have Triumph focus their energies on building a Sprint 675

I want a Tiger 675.  We'll see which of us gets his wish first, if at all.  

[veefer800canuck]

I had read sometime ago that the Triumph 'busa-beater was dead in the water?

[bubba zanetti]

Anyone know what the weight comparison is between the 675 engine and the 1050? If it is not great, then why would a 675 be more attractive in the Tiger and ST roles? Insurance I can see but ...?

[crispiegee1]

For me the attraction would be a lower buy-in price and lower insurance.  Add to that a lighter weight (I don't know by how much) and a narrower profile.

That would be my reason, as well.  With the Sprint ST coming it at around 500 pounds, my hope would be that a Sprint 675 would be more in the 430 range.  It seems possible, given how incredibly light the Daytona is (~365 dry, right?  Maybe 405 wet?).

Plus, fuel range.  When hear guys talk about 150-180 mile range out of a tank of gas (petrol to you, BubbaZ   ), I laugh because I get 220 to a tank on my YZF-600R.  Fewer stops for fill-ups and less money spent overall.  

[Schneegz]

My reasoning is mostly economic.  A Tiger 675, even with fully adjustable suspension, would probably sell for about $8,000 US with ABS.  The Tiger 1050 will MSRP for over $11,000 US with ABS.  That's a pretty big difference, and I really don't need a 1050cc bike.  Essentially, I'd be paying $3,000 for more bike than I need.  I'd rather not do that.

As mentioned before, insurance rates are also lower for smaller displacement bikes.

According to Sport Rider magazine, the Daytona 675 weighs in at a whopping 389lb dry, and 417lb with a full tank.

Assuming that Triumph decide to build a Tiger with the D675 chassis as a starting point - instead of just sticking a smaller engine in the Tiger 1050's frame, as Suzuki did with the VStrom 1000/650 - the resulting bike might weigh in at 450lb or less with five US gallons of fuel in the tank.  Typically, a lighter bike is more fun to ride.  As for power, all the reports of the Tiger 1050 rave about the engine, but I'd be happy with a 675 toned down to 95 or 100hp at the crank.

Obviously, I have no idea if anyone at Triumph has even concidered such a bike, but I think it would make one hell of a middleweight all arounder.  Use the Daytona 675 chassis and engine as a starting point, give it two or three more inches of suspension travel, make the suspension adjustable, give it a half fairing and equip it with optional hard luggage and ABS.  The others that are available now - The FZ6, Multistrada 620, V-Strom 650 and (in Europe) Kawasaki Versys - don't really come close.

[garry]

My reasoning is mostly economic.  A Tiger 675, even with fully adjustable suspension, would probably sell for about $8,000 US with ABS.

I bet it would sell for as much as a Daytona 675 ($9000 USD) which would make it kinda pricey compared to a Wee Strom. But if it came with the right stuff (more off-road worthy than a Wee Strom), it'd be worth it. If BMW ever comes out with the rumored 800 GS, that would put a line in the sand both functionally and price-wise. 450 pounds wet (5+ gallons of gas) with some off-road capability and good (if not excellent) road manners would sell me.

[TalkingHead]

I bet it would sell for as much as a Daytona 675 ($9000 USD) which would make it kinda pricey compared to a Wee Strom. But if it came with the right stuff (more off-road worthy than a Wee Strom), it'd be worth it. If BMW ever comes out with the rumored 800 GS, that would put a line in the sand both functionally and price-wise. 450 pounds wet (5+ gallons of gas) with some off-road capability and good (if not excellent) road manners would sell me.

If it wasn't a boxer that might be a BMW I could be interested in (depending on how overpriced it is).

[Schneegz]

I bet it would sell for as much as a Daytona 675 ($9000 USD) which would make it kinda pricey compared to a Wee Strom. But if it came with the right stuff (more off-road worthy than a Wee Strom), it'd be worth it. If BMW ever comes out with the rumored 800 GS, that would put a line in the sand both functionally and price-wise. 450 pounds wet (5+ gallons of gas) with some off-road capability and good (if not excellent) road manners would sell me.

I'm really not interested in off road ability.  I'd prefer a bike with excellent road manners.  In fact, the new Tiger is almost exactly what I'm looking for, except I don't need that much bike.  If Triumph does not announce a Tiger 675 within the next couple years, I'll probably pick up a used 1050.  Of course, Triumph could make two versions, a road version and an "adventure" version.  However, given that Triumph is a relatively small company, I don't see that happening.

You guys are probably right about a Tiger 675 coming in at about $9,000 US, by the way.  That still seems like a good price for a bike with the equipment I described.

[TalkingHead]

I also agree that a 675 Tiger wouldn't be less than $9k, and that such a bike would be ideal for the street. That being said, a BMW 800 GS, with the parallel twin could also be a fantastic street bike and possibly good for low-level off-pavement riding. With the BMW price-point will be the problem. I would guess that a GS version would be close to $10k and for that you can pick up a used Multistrada 1000.

[Gaolee]

That would be my reason, as well.  With the Sprint ST coming it at around 500 pounds, my hope would be that a Sprint 675 would be more in the 430 range.  It seems possible, given how incredibly light the Daytona is (~365 dry, right?  Maybe 405 wet?).  

I don't know what the real dry weight is, but a bone stock 675 with a full fuel tank weighs in at 417 to 420 lbs.  Given a bit of touring stuff, it would be reasonable to expect a 675 Sprint or Tiger to come in at 450 or less with a full tank.

I don't think any Triumph will compete with the weeStrom.  It will compete with the Multi-Stradas of this world, and probably be both quicker and less expensive.  It probably wouldn't get as good a fuel economy as the bigger Sprint unless Triumph detuned it fairly significantly.  But, if it had 80 horsepower at the wheel instead of close to 110, it would probably still be quicker than most of its competition.

[Schneegz]

It probably wouldn't get as good a fuel economy as the bigger Sprint unless Triumph detuned it fairly significantly.  But, if it had 80 horsepower at the wheel instead of close to 110, it would probably still be quicker than most of its competition.

80hp at the wheel and 450lb with fuel would make it significantly quicker than its competition, I think.  The November 2006 issue of Bike magazine measured the BMW F800S at 84hp at the wheel and 206kg (454lb) in a comparison of middleweight all arounders.  The F800S was significantly quicker than the competition, scoring 0-60mph in 3.53 seconds, beating the nearest competitor by 0.70 seconds.  This was despite the fact that, according to Bike, the BMW is hampered by an overly tall 1st gear.

[crispiegee1]

I don't follow the reasoning behind why a 675 would need to be detuned - it reportedly has lots of midrange.  My YZF600R makes 88.5 at the back wheel (source: Motorcyclist) and I wouldn't want any less than that.

Just stick the same engine in... it's easier for the manufacturing process to accommodate.  At least on my Sprint 675 idea, I still want to have some of that wonderful top end with my midrange.  I wouldn't think the fuel economy would be really bad... better than a 1055 engine, anyway.

[Gaolee]

I don't follow the reasoning behind why a 675 would need to be detuned - it reportedly has lots of midrange.  My YZF600R makes 88.5 at the back wheel (source: Motorcyclist) and I wouldn't want any less than that.

Just stick the same engine in... it's easier for the manufacturing process to accommodate.  At least on my Sprint 675 idea, I still want to have some of that wonderful top end with my midrange.  I wouldn't think the fuel economy would be really bad... better than a 1055 engine, anyway.

It would only have different cams and a different map, so manufacturing and development costs would be minimal.  My 675 gets a little over 40 mpg when I am taking it easy, and it gets significantly less than 20 mpg when it is on the track- not that a 675 Sprint or Tiger would spend that much time on the track.  Since, a big Sprint gets more like 50 mpg but doesn't have significantly more horsepower, I would expect a 675 Sprint to be tuned more for midrange.  The midrange on a 675 is outstanding for a supersport, but it is still only about 50 ft/lbs on a good day.  It will roast an R6 out of a corner, but it isn't exactly the kind of tractor power that works best for a touring bike that might get used two up on a regular basis.  Even if Triumph changed the cams and whatever else they need to change to get quite a bit more torque, I doubt that most people would notice the "lack" of top end.  After all, I had plenty of fun on a TT600 that had less than 40 ft/lbs of torque and less than 90 horsepower at the back wheel.  It is all relative, and Triumph can make a lot of different versions of that engine for different purposes without losing its basic character.

[rauchman]

I'm a broken record on this, but I'd still rather have Triumph focus their energies on building a Sprint 675 - basically a Daytona with more comfortable seat and ergos, a bit higher windscreen and more relaxed handlebars.  It would be lighter than the 1055 Sprint and more economical to run besides.

If they built that, I'd forget all other bikes.  

As cool as a Triumph hyper-GT is, it sure wouldn't be anything I'd ever consider buying.  

+ 1

I hardly ever have a pillion on my bike.  My wife has her own bike.  But a relatively comfy bike, with a really fun engine and great handling.....that sounds good to me.