The Knee Slider Interviews Erik Buell

[Schneegz]

Link:

Here's a tasty little morsel to whet your appetite.

Kneeslider: A number of people were wondering about whether you had ever considered the Revolution engine …

Erik Buell: We actually started that project.

Kneeslider: Really? I don’t think a lot of people know that.

Erik Buell: Yep.

[PlayWithGravity]

From HowStuffWorks:

Revolution engines - Manufactured starting in 2001. The Revolution engine is currently used on only one Harley production model -- the VSRC. While all of the engines previously mentioned are largely the same and represent incremental improvements, the Revolution engine is different. This engine is water-cooled rather than air-cooled and its V angle is 60 degrees rather than 45. It has four overhead cams rather than two cams in the crankcase and is fuel injected. This engine is smaller -- only 69 cubic inches (1,130 cc). It has a much shorter stroke, allowing it to rev to 9,000 RPM, and it produces 115 horsepower.

[dgunther]

 
Good interview!

[Mastros2]

Yes, good read!  Thanks!

[Kootenanny]

Thanks, I enjoyed that...although I noted a few inconsistencies with things Erik has stated in the past...

[Schneegz]

Thanks, I enjoyed that...although I noted a few inconsistencies with things Erik has stated in the past...

Yeah, like all that drivel about how the Sportster engine was the ideal engine for Buell bikes, Harley wasn't shoving the Sportster engine down Buell's throat and how they'd never use a liquid cooled engine.

Puh-leeze    I always thought that was a big, steaming pile of corporate steer manure.

I read over at BadWeb that Buell began development of the Revolution to be mounted in Buell bikes.  Harley didn't think it would be profitable to invest so much R&D money into a Buell-only engine, since Buell sells very few bikes compared with Harley, so they decided to use the Revolution in a new Harley line - the VRod.  The trouble was that Buell was designing a light, compact engine ideal for sport bikes.  Harley wanted a physically larger engine with vestigial cooling fins for styling purposes.  As the engine grew in exterior dimensions to suit cruiser esthetics, it became much heavier than what Buell wanted, so Buell pulled out of the project, and Harley turned to Porsche to complete development.

I thought all that was just rumor, but this interview proves that at least some of it is true.  I'm a mechanical engineer, and I know I'd be mad as hell if the company I worked for took a project I was passionate about, screwed it all up and used it in something for which I never intended it.

I guess this also explains why the Revolution and the Helicon are so similar in displacement and cylinder angle.

[naustin]

Keep in mind that the Thunderstorm powerplant was not discontinued and received a very LARGE amount of development attention itself.  It has a completely new timing system, new oil pump, new ecu control and new case castings.  If this powerplant wasn't "ideal" for Buell's bikes, they wouldn't have stuck that much development money into it - especially while simultaneously developing the Helicon powerplant.  

The Thunderstorm will be around for a good long while, and it will continue to power the Uly, TT, Lightning and probably other bikes too.  

Aircooled engines are nice.  Look at BMW.  Just because they have watercooled motors available doesn't mean they have to ditch the Boxer, and Buell doesn't have to ditch the thunderstorm either.  

[Schneegz]

Keep in mind that the Thunderstorm powerplant was not discontinued and received a very LARGE amount of development attention itself.  It has a completely new timing system, new oil pump, new ecu control and new case castings.  If this powerplant wasn't "ideal" for Buell's bikes, they wouldn't have stuck that much development money into it - especially while simultaneously developing the Helicon powerplant.  

The Thunderstorm will be around for a good long while, and it will continue to power the Uly, TT, Lightning and probably other bikes too.  

Aircooled engines are nice.  Look at BMW.  Just because they have watercooled motors available doesn't mean they have to ditch the Boxer, and Buell doesn't have to ditch the thunderstorm either.  

My point was not to suggest that Buell should discontinue the Thunderstorm.  My point was that this interview proves what many have suspected all along, that Buell was being held back by HD in the development of more powerful, more modern engines.

As for the Thunderstorm being "ideal"; I suppose that's subjective.  The comparison to BMW's air cooled boxer is appropriate.  Just as BMW built its reputation with the boxer, Buell built its reputation with the Thunderstorm, whether it was ideal or not.  The Thunderstorm has become just as much a part of Buell's corporate image as the boxer is part of BMW's - though arguably the boxer has a lot more history on its side.  Most of Buell's current customers find the juxtaposition of a relatively low-tech engine in a high-tech chasis unique and charming.  If Buell were to dump the Thunderstorm, the would alienate the vast majority of their very loyal customer base, in effect commiting financial suicide, and the same goes for BMW and their boxer.

In other words, ideal or not, Buell is "stuck" with immage they cultivated around the Thunderstorm, so it only makes sense to continue its development.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Pragmatic]

First let me say I've only owned air-cooled bikes.  I've gone back and forth on the advantages of water cooling.  At times I think they are the way to go, more power longer life, etc., but there's something to be said for simplicity.

One of the things I like about my Bandit is there are only two fluids needed to run the bike fuel and oil.  No coolant, no transmission or primary oil, no oil for the rear drive.  Change the plugs every 18,000, adjust the valves every 18,000.  So far in 40,000 miles two exhaust needed to be loosened (they were still in spec just at the low end of the range).

The Lightning added primary oil (as did the old Triumph Bonneville) but eliminated the no chain and the valve adjustment (really no big deal since the Bandit uses screw adjusters).  

Not sure I want to be dealing with pump seals, flushing, hoses, radiator corrosion and other issues that will creep up after 10 years of use.  But then again more power is nice.

[Rogue]

Keep in mind that the Thunderstorm powerplant was not discontinued and received a very LARGE amount of development attention itself.  It has a completely new timing system, new oil pump, new ecu control and new case castings.  If this powerplant wasn't "ideal" for Buell's bikes, they wouldn't have stuck that much development money into it - especially while simultaneously developing the Helicon powerplant.  

The Thunderstorm will be around for a good long while, and it will continue to power the Uly, TT, Lightning and probably other bikes too.  

Aircooled engines are nice.  Look at BMW.  Just because they have watercooled motors available doesn't mean they have to ditch the Boxer, and Buell doesn't have to ditch the thunderstorm either.  

Excellent points.

With the release of the Helicon engine, people will now quickly forget, it was the Thunderstorm engine that got Buell where it is today.  Without that engine, Buell wouldn't even exist.  I hope Buell continues to offer the Thunderstorm.  And judging by all the improvements it got in '08, it appears they are committed to it.  There is nothing wrong with having an aircooled AND liquid cooled engines to spread around.

Ducati and BMW have proven that.

Edited to add, there is nothing wrong or bad with the Thunderstorm engine.  It is a fine, reliable, and relatively powerful engine within its class of aircooled engines.  Plus, it has the distinction of needing very little maintenance.  Of course there are always those (me included in the past) who believe that that unless the bike's engine is cooled by water, has multi-valves, puts out lots of top end power, requires regular valve adjustments and FI synchronization, then it's not good.  

[Kootenanny]

Hmmm...much as I can appreciate the 1125R, I think I'll be sticking with my Thunderstorm-powered Firebolt for the foreseeable future.  It has proven to be reliable, provides ample acceleration and speed for my needs (enough that the local law enforcement community has bestowed several performance awards on it), and hey, it's fun!  The last thing I need right now is a bike that I'd need to practice strict throttle management on--I like to be able to whack it open on occasion, feel like I'm really wringing it's neck (the kind of stuff that gets you deep into "Oh, Sh*t!" territory quickly on some, more powerful bikes).  I'm not timing laps, but I am counting grins

[JamesG]

I think the typical Buell customer is more like the customer base for the Japanese brands in that they aren't ridgidly wedded to a preconcieved notion of what a Buell "has to be". At least I'd like to think so.  

If Buell were to come out with a high quality inline-4 engined bike, I think they would still attract at least a similar number if not more customers.

[naustin]

I think the typical Buell customer is more like the customer base for the Japanese brands in that they aren't ridgidly wedded to a preconcieved notion of what a Buell "has to be". At least I'd like to think so.  

If Buell were to come out with a high quality inline-4 engined bike, I think they would still attract at least a similar number if not more customers.

James, I strongly disagree with everything you said.