A Narrowly Focused ABS Discussion

[Clive]

No, it's not yet another "let's bicker about ABS!" invitation.  I used to think ABS was an obvious choice for a motorcycle -- it's great on a car, so how could it not be great on a bike?  Then I began to critically examine that logic.

ABS Is Priceless on Ice and Snow.  No question that this is true, and an oft-cited benefit of ABS on cars.  But of course, motorcyclists don't ride in snow and ice, so this advantage is moot for riders.

ABS Lets You Brake And Steer.  Absolutely true ... for cars, at least.  But on a motorcycle, is there really enough front-tire traction to brake hard AND swerve at the same time?  When you're braking that hard, how much traction is really left for cornering?  Can ABS really permit you the ability and the time to brake, then swerve, then brake, all without hitting whatever it is that jumped into your path?  If not, then the value of motorcycle ABS systems seems to collapse down to straight-line stops.

ABS Stops The Vehicle In A Shorter Distance.  For the most part, assuming operators of average to somewhat above-average skill, this also is true.  (I'm going to take as a given that not all car drivers are experienced roadracers, and that not all riders are experienced roadracers.)  It's probably true for clean, dry pavement, and it's almost definitely true as road surfaces worsen (moisture, sand, gravel, oil, etc.).

And that brings me to ...

In the Real World, Can ABS Stop A Motorcycle In Time?  When you are moving slowly and scanning well ahead, you have all the time in the world to bring yourself to a stop.  When something pops out of nowhere and no brakes of any kind could ever hope to stop your bike in time, then ABS is useless -- you're going to hit the something that jumped in front of you.  And so, there's a range of emergencies where the rider has to straight-line brake AND the difference between an ABS emergency stop and a non-ABS emergency stop can be the difference between crashing and not crashing.

I'm wondering how broad or narrow that range is, in the real world.

(I should say again that I'm not looking for the same tired arguments about ABS, how one should practice braking and be alert, who's a "real" rider/biker, and so on.  I'm trying to figure out where ABS can be advantageous to a motorcyclist, rather than assume it to be so.)

[UFO]

If you don't like ABS, don't get it.
If you like ABS, get it.

[atypical1]

If you don't like ABS, don't get it.
If you like ABS, get it.

No shit. How many ABS threads does one board need anyway?  

james

[Clive]

On a non-moto board, I asked if anyone had ever had an occasion where they had to stop RIGHT NOW and felt that their ABS-equipped car let them stop in time, whereas they didn't think they could've stopped in time without it.  I got a lot of responses, some dealing with winter conditions, some with swerving while braking, and only a few with just stopping in a straight line.  The benefit of ABS on a car was clear to me, but the kinds of real-life incidents people were recounting didn't seem to apply across the board to motorcycles.  Made me wonder.

If you don't like ABS, don't get it.
If you like ABS, get it.

What if I don't know whether I "like" it or not?  Did you even read the post?

[UFO]

The ABS on my FJR has only kicked in once during a panic situation.  I was coming around a blind corner and came upon a pickup backing out of a driveway.  You know how cagers are.  He saw me.  Instead of continuing to back out at a quicker pace...he stopped right in my lane.

I jammed on the brakes in panic mode, ABS kicked in, I stopped right at the side of the truck.  No sliding, gliding, fishtailing, fuss, or muss.  I believe it saved my ass that day, and paid for itself in the span of the handful of seconds it was activated.

Could I have stopped without locking up the front and rear brakes in that situation without ABS.  No idea.  All I know is the ABS worked.

[sleazy rider]

The 1150GSA I currently own has it and so will my next bike.  Last weekend I had a "situation" where a garbage truck ran a stop sign and I grabbed hand and foot fulls of brakes to avoid a faceplant into it's side.  It got stopped with 5 feet to spare from 55 mph in under 100 feet.  That convinced me.  YMMV, but it's a keeper in my stable.

[Albie]

ABS threads make me want to go stomp on a kitty!  

[Stray Cat]

ABS threads make me want to go stomp on a kitty!  

Hey.... watch it mister....  

[cbsnbiker]

It's very simple: ABS on motorcycles helps riders utilize maximum braking without locking either wheel in straight-line stops.

[county]

All those fat pig slow assed Harley's should have mandatory ABS.

[thatguy]

Honest question.What occurs if the ABS malfunctions or fails?

[Snowbird]

No shit. How many ABS threads does one board need anyway?  

james

Hey, c'mon. Everyone is busy riding and post count is down.  

[Snowbird]

And that brings me to ...

In the Real World, Can ABS Stop A Motorcycle In Time?  When you are moving slowly and scanning well ahead, you have all the time in the world to bring yourself to a stop.  When something pops out of nowhere and no brakes of any kind could ever hope to stop your bike in time, then ABS is useless -- you're going to hit the something that jumped in front of you.  And so, there's a range of emergencies where the rider has to straight-line brake AND the difference between an ABS emergency stop and a non-ABS emergency stop can be the difference between crashing and not crashing.

I'm wondering how broad or narrow that range is, in the real world.

Well, you know... "if ABS can save even one life, then everyone should have to pay for it whether they like it or not."   

But, what if the life is of some worthless scum? I mean, who are we to play God?   

See the other current ABS thread for my real opinion. I think your question hits the nail on the head.

I'm personally glad my FJR has ABS because of the role I bought it for: longer rides when I might be tired, riding under adverse conditions, etc. Plus, it is HEAVY.

[shil]

ABS Lets You Brake And Steer.  Absolutely true ... for cars, at least.  But on a motorcycle, is there really enough front-tire traction to brake hard AND swerve at the same time?  When you're braking that hard, how much traction is really left for cornering?  Can ABS really permit you the ability and the time to brake, then swerve, then brake, all without hitting whatever it is that jumped into your path?  If not, then the value of motorcycle ABS systems seems to collapse down to straight-line stops.

Doesn't the ABS automagically use whatever traction there is?  Using the traction that's left over from cornering for braking, rather than the other way around?

[Clive]

Doesn't the ABS automagically use whatever traction there is?  Using the traction that's left over from cornering for braking, rather than the other way around?

I guess I just always assumed, but I'll ask, too: ABS won't keep the front tire from washing out if you hit the braked while heeled over, right?  I kind of blindly expected it wouldn't prevent traction loss, but I honestly don't know for sure ... and it's certainly not something I was going to try on my ABS-equipped bike.  Anyone?

See the other current ABS thread for my real opinion. I think your question hits the nail on the head.

I actually just posted in your thread.  If I have the correct mental image now, you stopped to the side of the SUV but, had she not stopped, your braking distance would have been about a foot or so too long (boom!).  And that was with ABS.

I just think back on my own thousands of miles and the few really close calls I've had.  Far and away, I was alert, predictive, and proactive (like most here, I'd bet) and ABS would never have been triggered.  From the crash reports I've read and the crash videos I've seen on youtube, the rider had too little time to do any meaningful braking before the impact.  (Ignoring the fact that the time to have done something -- slow down, be more alert, and the like -- had already passed.)  And then there's the bit in between those two ends of the spectrum ... a bit of undetermined size.



I'm bike-shopping.  My wife, whose approval I need for a moto purchase with family funds, is big on ABS.  I love her, and I also like both having sex with her and sleeping in a bed.  I already collected up the list of 2006-2008 motorcycles that have or offer ABS.  It ain't a long list, and frankly, the bikes on that list don't exactly prompt a pup-tent event.  Before getting into the viability of convincing her that ABS isn't worthwhile, I first need to make that decision for myself.  This thread is where I am in that process.

[Fourstring]

I'm bike-shopping.  My wife, whose approval I need for a moto purchase with family funds, is big on ABS.  I love her, and I also like both having sex with her and sleeping in a bed.  I

So ABS helps you get laid?  Why don't they just say THAT in the ads?  I'd buy three!

[Albie]

Hey.... watch it mister....  

All right, all right........  I'll go stomp on a puppy. There, feel better?  

[Clive]

So ABS helps you get laid?  Why don't they just say THAT in the ads?  I'd buy three!

"Just grab a handful!"

Although perhaps it's that I stop more quickly ...  

[DogBoy]

All right, all right........  I'll go stomp on a puppy. There, feel better?  

Hey!

[black hills]

Can't comment on ABS on bikes as I have never tried one. But in a car I wish you could trun it off sometimes. I'm sure it helps in most cases, but on shear ice it sometimes works best to be able to lock the wheels, get it pointed in the right direction, then regain traction. It's more fun anyway!!

[nanbil]

No shit. How many BS threads does one board need anyway?  

james

And here I thought that was all we had here at ST.net...BS threads.  

[mcoyote]

Forget that I've complained about my *BMW*'s braking system before ('nuther discussion), ABS *does* do that stuff, and it did save my bacon at least once on black-icy, suburban streets. Gets a little flaky on really shitty pavement, however (could feel it cycling frantically sometimes) and I would gather that it could unnecessarily aggravate some emergency stops under those conditions. Certainly the case on dirt.

On an actual paved surface, however, I wish I had ABS on all my bikes (just not *that* ABS).

[Penforhire]

On the emergency no-time situation, how far can you slide your front wheel before you fall over?  I can't go very far with mine locked up.  That's a recipe for falling down in milliseconds.  ABS prevents that even if it won't stop you before not-enough-room impact.  And sometimes you get lucky and had JUST enough room to stop anyway.

[Global Rider]

I guess I just always assumed, but I'll ask, too: ABS won't keep the front tire from washing out if you hit the braked while heeled over, right?  I kind of blindly expected it wouldn't prevent traction loss, but I honestly don't know for sure ... and it's certainly not something I was going to try on my ABS-equipped bike.  Anyone?

And there lies the problem where most riders think ABS is the be all and end all that'll save their necks.  

BTW, no, it won't work when leaned over, even when only halfway to the peg. If you don't believe me, be my guest and try it at your own risk...I assume no responsibility though.

I just love these ABS threads and reading what some believe they "think" ABS can do.  

[shil]

Well, it's a good thing that you're so smart.  

[DataDan]

ABS can prevent a crash under braking in an emergency stop when the rider grabs too much too quickly. These happen all the time, though they're usually reported as intentionally laying the bike down. Because sliding along the pavement slows you down much less effectively than does good braking, the chances of hitting what you're trying to avoid increases. And, of course, the fall itself can hurt or even kill you.

Though we (including me) would all like to think we can be utterly cool even in a life-threatening emergency and that we'll execute the ideal evasive maneuver flawlessly, it doesn't always happen that way. That's when ABS can be a lifesaver.

[Clive]

ABS can prevent a crash under braking in an emergency stop when the rider grabs too much too quickly. These happen all the time, though they're usually reported as intentionally laying the bike down. Because sliding along the pavement slows you down much less effectively than does good braking, the chances of hitting what you're trying to avoid increases. And, of course, the fall itself can hurt or even kill you.

Though we (including me) would all like to think we can be utterly cool even in a life-threatening emergency and that we'll execute the ideal evasive maneuver flawlessly, it doesn't always happen that way. That's when ABS can be a lifesaver.

While I'd prefer to leave the rider out of it, there are times when the rider's skill must be considered.  While I don't make the mistake of thinking every rider is, or should be, of racer level skill, neither do I believe that every rider is trembling and over-applies the brakes at the first sign of trouble.  Many of us ride non-ABS motorcycles and we've probably all had a few very close calls.  Very few have locked up the front and gone down because of it.

If anything, I'd expect the fairly skilled rider (which is my default assumption for myself and this group) to be likelier to slightly under-apply the front brake on a non-ABS bike than to over-apply it and lock the front.

[jeremy556]

Doesn't the ABS automagically use whatever traction there is?  Using the traction that's left over from cornering for braking, rather than the other way around?

ABS does nothing for you with regards to braking while turning.

ABS on a bike will only keep the wheel rotating. If you try and use some grip for lateral acceleration (turning) while 100% is being used for braking, the front wheel will lose traction and you will fall down.

[ZED]

My thoughts:

Car:  I like ABS when I'm looking for "hand of god" stopping power driving spiritedly into a corner (you know when you see the left turn light a 1/4 mile ahead is about to change and you want to make it )
I like ABS in the snow as it gives me better handling while braking.  
I HATE ABS on glare ice.  It does nothing.  Without it I can at least get some stopping traction while sliding.  (yes I've tried both)

Motorcycle:  I have ridden an ABS equipped bike, but don't have one as yet.  I think it may be handy for the "panic" situation that you shouldn't be in anyway.  I've locked my front wheel a few times.  In one of them I went down, but that was on gravel, so that doesn't count as you'll go down eventually if you ride enough gravel.

As for "tent popping" ABS equipped bikes, ever looked at the Ducati ST3sABS?  Heading to the dealer tomorrow.  Expecting delivery next week.  Not because of the ABS though.  That's just a bonus.  I'm getting the ST3s because of the Ohlins and other handling goodies combined with a sporty touring bike!  Oh, and if I don't like the ABS, I can dissable it with the push of a button.

[thatguy]

So I take it no one knows what happens if ABS fails or malfunctions?

[bikerfish1100]

2 likely variations for failure- either ABS does not engage at all (back to std brakes), or it overengages and does not allow strong braking to occur. The former is the more likely failure mode, the latter is the more likely out-of-adjustment response.

[Snowbird]

I guess I just always assumed, but I'll ask, too: ABS won't keep the front tire from washing out if you hit the braked while heeled over, right?  I kind of blindly expected it wouldn't prevent traction loss, but I honestly don't know for sure ... and it's certainly not something I was going to try on my ABS-equipped bike.  Anyone?


I actually just posted in your thread.  If I have the correct mental image now, you stopped to the side of the SUV but, had she not stopped, your braking distance would have been about a foot or so too long (boom!).  And that was with ABS.

I just think back on my own thousands of miles and the few really close calls I've had.  Far and away, I was alert, predictive, and proactive (like most here, I'd bet) and ABS would never have been triggered.  From the crash reports I've read and the crash videos I've seen on youtube, the rider had too little time to do any meaningful braking before the impact.  (Ignoring the fact that the time to have done something -- slow down, be more alert, and the like -- had already passed.)  And then there's the bit in between those two ends of the spectrum ... a bit of undetermined size.



I'm bike-shopping.  My wife, whose approval I need for a moto purchase with family funds, is big on ABS.  I love her, and I also like both having sex with her and sleeping in a bed.  I already collected up the list of 2006-2008 motorcycles that have or offer ABS.  It ain't a long list, and frankly, the bikes on that list don't exactly prompt a pup-tent event.  Before getting into the viability of convincing her that ABS isn't worthwhile, I first need to make that decision for myself.  This thread is where I am in that process.

Yes, you have the right scenario regarding the minivan that pulled out ahead of me where the visibility was really quite good and after she looked toward me, but apparently it did not register in her brain despite the two big headlights on the front of the FJR.

ABS, IMO, is ok but far from deserving the adoration many bestow upon it.

IMO, ABS becomes more desirable under the following conditions listed in general from most important to less so.

Poor riding/braking skills.
Tendency to panic.
High miles per year and frequency of riding under low light conditions.
Heavier bikes.
Commuting.
Riding despite impending poor weather.

Over the 15k miles that I've ridden an ABS equipped bike, two incidents come to mind. First was tar melted by spilled fuel upon which I fell and broke an ankle. I was not braking at the time, so ABS did nothing for me. (It was spritzing occasional rain that day, so I thought I was looking at tar that was slightly wet, not melted. Just a bit of throttle and the bike popped out from under me on the severe cross slope.... just if anyone wants to know.) Second was the recent one where a foot or two shorter braking distance would have kept me out of harm's way despite the actions of another motorist (the minivan lady).

On the other hand, in the past, I've been able to control braking on my non-ABS motorcycles despite situations where ABS is supposed to be helpful.

So, bottom line, WellHeeled, is you have to make a guess of which sort of situation you'll most likely encounter based on the bike you choose and the type of riding you'll do and hope for the best. It's somewhat like choosing between shaft, belt or chain drive: choose the bike you want to ride and accept the type of braking it has, ABS or not. If the bike comes in both flavors, then you have to choose.

The very funny thing to me, though, is the defensiveness of the pro-ABS crowd.   

[Global Rider]

Well, it's a good thing that you're so smart.

Look up "Traction Circle" in a book or do a search on the net. You too will be smarter now.  

[RedCBRRider]

ABS threads make me want to go stomp on a kitty!  

I have one you can use for said purpose.

[mcoyote]

So I take it no one knows what happens if ABS fails or malfunctions?

*raises hand

[burnergold2B]

 Ask any iron butter Anti Ballistic Skivvies rock!


 Anti Bear Suckers rule!


 Any Beaver Shots out there?    


 A Boston Sot is a drunkard.      


 Can we All Bitch Slap the ABS patent holder?



 Any Boston Scotch ale out there in Cali.?



 Aliens Buffooned Scruffy my cat!



 Ambiguous Beemers Scammin'



 Attitude Before Synthetics    



 Any Botswanan Sailors in da house?  



 Awww ferchrisakes,  Alaskan Boozehounds are tryin to Sleep here!!!



     WTF is A Bigok Slacker?


 
 


   



 

[tomek]

No, it's not yet another "let's bicker about ABS!" invitation.  I used to think ABS was an obvious choice for a motorcycle -- it's great on a car, so how could it not be great on a bike?  Then I began to critically examine that logic.

ABS Is Priceless on Ice and Snow.  No question that this is true, and an oft-cited benefit of ABS on cars.

Well, it is not so,you obviously don`t drive a lot in the snow.

What kind of snow,Eskimo have over 20 words to describe different kinds of snow.

In many snow conditions ABS is actually useless and increases your stopping distance big time. Many times it is beneficial to get large amount of slip or even to lack up the wheels.This way tire digs deeper into harder,better gripping surface and the traction increses big time.

ABS might help when braking on snow covering the ice,or on pure ice,but most of the times hurts braking.

[Clive]

Well, it is not so,you obviously don`t drive a lot in the snow.

What kind of snow,Eskimo have over 20 words to describe different kinds of snow.

In many snow conditions ABS is actually useless and increases your stopping distance big time. Many times it is beneficial to get large amount of slip or even to lack up the wheels.This way tire digs deeper into harder,better gripping surface and the traction increses big time.

ABS might help when braking on snow covering the ice,or on pure ice,but most of the times hurts braking.

Regardless, it's moot when it comes to motorcycles.  My motorcycles, at last.  YMMV.  


Reading back over the thread, I just don't know if I'm going to do any better than just guessing.  I can see that there are times then ABS could help me out (wet road, for example), but I can see that there are other times when it wouldn't.  I suppose I just have to make a better estimate of the kinds of riding I'd be doing, and then see if the situations where it's be of value would be present in any appreciable amount.

Thanks for the information and the viewpoints, y'all ... and for being civil!  

[Bodhi]

If you don't like ABS, don't get it.
If you like ABS, get it.

It's difficult  to dispute such scholarly analysis.

[Snowbird]

and for being civil!

You're askin' for it.  

Up yers.  

[county]

So I take it no one knows what happens if ABS fails or malfunctions?

The system is suppose to default to standard brakes.  

[cbsnbiker]

Well, you know... "if ABS can save even one life, then everyone should have to pay for it whether they like it or not."   

But, what if the life is of some worthless scum? I mean, who are we to play God?   

See the other current ABS thread for my real opinion. I think your question hits the nail on the head.

I'm personally glad my FJR has ABS because of the role I bought it for: longer rides when I might be tired, riding under adverse conditions, etc. Plus, it is HEAVY.

Mind you, everyone, this was posted by someone whose butt was just saved by ABS.  

[Uncle Bob]

So I take it no one knows what happens if ABS fails or malfunctions?

most situations, the computer senses a problem and disables the ABS, and your brakes act like 'normal' brakes

If you have a remote problem, a problem that surfaces, but the computer doesn't recognise the extent of the problem, you could have the ABS engage when it shouldn't, and your stopping distance would be greatly compromised.

This is extremely rare, especially on bikes.

[Busy Little Whiner]

So I take it no one knows what happens if ABS fails or malfunctions?

Isn't there a lawyer induced malfunction sticker some where on the bike???

Warning... before each panic stop check the ABS INOP light to know how much lever pressure to apply...

[joema]

Doesn't the ABS automagically use whatever traction there is?  Using the traction that's left over from cornering for braking, rather than the other way around?

While it does automatically use all available traction, current ABS systems have no idea about bank angle or the traction pie chart. They work by sensing an inappropriate slowing in wheel rotation rate (indicating incipient lockup), then momentarily reducing brake pressure.

When banked over, much of the traction budget is used for lateral cornering, hence is unavailable for longitudinal braking. However current ABS systems have no way to detect this. They only monitor wheel rotation rate.

As braking pressure ramps up in a banked-over situation, what's the behavior as the traction limit is approached? As a lateral skid happens, obviously wheel rotation slows. The question is can current ABS systems intervene to make any difference in this case? I tend to doubt it. OTOH ABS can intervene in time for the upright case. In both the banked case and upright case, wheel rotation slows.

It may come down to the physics of how the contact patch behaves as lateral grip level is exceeded, and the specific ABS system. It probably varies based on road surface, hence type of traction loss. E.g, on a dry racetrack, sport tires typically slough off a thin layer of rubber as grip is exceeded, exposing a new fresh layer. This provides a last-ditch method of restoring grip, which the rider may feel and back off. In that case maybe some ABS systems would work, since there would be a momentary slowing in wheel rotation rate which doesn't necessarily progress inevitably to an uncontrolled lateral slide. On a wet road, the physics would be different, and grip might be lost faster.

Traction control is the accelerative counterpart to ABS. TC systems are used on MotoGP bikes, and they work when banked over. The rider simply turn the throttle hard at the apex, and the TC systems put down however much power the grip level and tire allows on a moment to moment basis.

This implies it's possible for a sufficiently capable ABS system to work when banked over. Whether any existing ABS system has a beneficial effect in the banked case, I don't know.

[joema]

So I take it no one knows what happens if ABS fails or malfunctions?

ABS on either cars or bikes can fail or malfunction. On cars ABS is often integrated with electronic stability control (ESC), which can also malfunction.

Various failure modes are possible: the ABS can fail to intervene, allowing a skid. Or the ABS can intervene prematurely, lengthening stopping distance. On cars ESC systems (which selectively brake individual wheels) can malfunction and apply brakes without driver input.

On either bike or car, the ABS/ESC systems are obviously a safety-critical item. Hence their design emphasizes reliability, redundancy and fail safe operation. They incorporate diagnostics and failure detection, and in the vast majority of cases either (a) won't fail, or (b) will fail in the least dangerous way, usually indicating an error on the instrument panel.

That said, I've experienced an ESC failure on a car where it momentarily applied brakes all by itself, which was quite scary.

For bikes I think the biggest risk is not an outright ABS failure, but narrow conditions which can fool the system into activating prematurely. Obviously the design emphasizes avoiding this, but it can happen under some rare conditions.

[black hills]

Isn't it all just going to eventually take the fun out of riding? ABS, Traction control, I even saw a system for cars that uses radar sensors that applies the brakes if  you get to close to the vehicle in front of you. Isn't the end result going to be a very safe vehicle, kind of like a bus? You won't be able to lock a wheel, or spin it up, or do those cool power wheelies, or get to close to anything, etc. Sure the bike will be much "safer" but it will be about as fun as public transportation. All this technology is great and does have it's place. If I'm 400 miles from home in the rain and it's 35 deg. Hell yes I'm going to want ABS and traction control. But if I'm out screwing around on a  warm sunny day why can't I turn it all off and just ride a motorcyle?

[cbsnbiker]

Isn't it all just going to eventually take the fun out of riding?  

It depends on your definition of fun.

Do you miss having separate throttle and spark advance controls? Would you prefer drum brakes on your sport-tourer? Do you like mixing oil with your gasoline? Do you want to rebuild your bike's top end every 10K miles? Do you miss the days of hardtails?

I'm not saying that there's a right or wrong answer to this question. It really does depend on what aspects of riding a motorcycle interest you. Some people like wrenching more than actually riding. Some people prefer riding on race tracks, others in the dirt, others on the street. More than a few riders are into vintage iron. Etc.

I would not enjoy the motorcycle riding experience if I just sat down, pushed a button, and sat on the bike as it did every single thing for me. We are not at that point yet. Telematics probably won't come to motorcycling for decades to come, if ever.

I like having ABS on the motorcycle. It is a tool available to me if needed.

[Penforhire]

You (I) don't notice ABS unless I screw up.  So i don't figure ABS has any bearing on the "fun quotient" of any ride.  Maybe reduces the pucker factor but that's a good thing to me.  Same with easy-start fuel injection, disc brakes, and a hundred other modern conveniences that don't harm the fun factor.  You want to ride low-tech you can, just ride an old bike.

[Jes_VFR]

ABS threads make me want to go stomp on a kitty!  

Send me your address and I fedex you my neighbors cat. I'm sick of it using my porch as a toilet.  


I think the value and application of ABS depends on the bike and the rider.
I do feel that it is a valuable feature that can extend safe riding skills through rough conditions.

I don't have a lot of experience with ABS bikes, but do know that if a bike is available with it, I'm going to consider it.

While its neat and fun occasionally to lock the wheels and goof around, I don't see myself doing that often enough that I wouldn't just pull a fuse or rig a switch for those rare occasions.

[cbsnbiker]

While its neat and fun occasionally to lock the wheels and goof around, I don't see myself doing that often enough that I wouldn't just pull a fuse or rig a switch for those rare occasions.

On several models, the ABS is switchable. The BMW GS models and the R1200S come immediately to mind.

[Snowbird]

Mind you, everyone, this was posted by someone whose butt was just saved by ABS.  

I don't know where you got that idea. I posted that if another vehicle that pulled in front of me hadn't stopped after my evasive maneuver, it would have hit me because ABS lengthened my stopping distance by several feet.  

The description is in the thread "ABS almost killed me."  

[Jes_VFR]

ABS does nothing for you with regards to braking while turning.

ABS on a bike will only keep the wheel rotating. If you try and use some grip for lateral acceleration (turning) while 100% is being used for braking, the front wheel will lose traction and you will fall down.

But wait, I thought that the ABS sensed the wheel approaching lock up and would release braking pressure to let the wheel recover.
If you try to turn the bike while braking hard on an abs bike, the system should cycle and keep the wheel rolling. Not that is not to say that you can't exceed 100% the available traction and wash out the front, It just means you were in over your head anyway.

This is not the ultimate traction enchancement. This is not some sort of traction guarantee. It is a safety device to make maximum braking more efficient.

Thinking that it will solve all the possible issues is in the same level of ignorance that 4x4 suv owner live in.
You know the ones crash is rainy, snowy or icy conditions and have no clue. They usually say something like, "I wasn't speeding, becides I have 4wd".

The only way you are going to know if ABS is for you is to try it on the bike you are going to buy.

[Jes_VFR]

I don't know where you got that idea. I posted that if another vehicle that pulled in front of me hadn't stopped after my evasive maneuver, it would have hit me because ABS lengthened my stopping distance by several feet.  

The description is in the thread "ABS almost killed me."  

yeah but your post reads more like "my stubborn suicidal brain tried to get me killed and my ABS bike saved my ass again"

[Clive]

The only way you are going to know if ABS is for you is to try it on the bike you are going to buy.

Well, given my first post in the thread, I'd say I hope to never know if ABS is for me.  I had it on my last bike, and I don't think it ever actuated.  (Maybe once, but I believe the subtle shudder feeling was just wrinkled pavement.)  I really am just trying to figure out how probable it is that I'd be in a situation where I needed right-now straight-line braking and ABS was the difference between stopping short and slamming into something.

[Clive]

I can think back of one time when ABS would probably have saved my ass.  But that's it.  All my close calls (not that many), the crash reports I've read, the crash videos I've watched, the few car accidents I've been in and the few I've witnessed -- ABS would have made a difference in essentially none of them.  That's not to say that it can't save a rider -- I'm just talking about the data that I've collected.

I don't doubt that ABS can stop the bike faster than I can and without the threat of a front wheel lock-up crash.  I just wonder how rare it is that I'd be in the situation where I could stop in time, ABS or not, and the ABS would be necessary (either to stop shorter or to prevent a tire lockup).  I've faced emergency stop scenarios before, and, while no robot, I'm apparently not one to hammer the lever and lock the front tire.  I suppose that means I stop in a longer distance than I otherwise could (or that ABS could), despite my hard-braking practicing.

I'm coming to the conclusion that its greatest value to me would be (in order): (1) riding on wet roads; (2) riding at night (where I can't see the condition of the roadway as well); and (3) those vanishingly few other occasions where ABS can stop the bike faster than I can AND those few feet are the difference between "Phew!" and "Thump!".

[jeremy556]

Well, given my first post in the thread, I'd say I hope to never know if ABS is for me.  I had it on my last bike, and I don't think it ever actuated.  (Maybe once, but I believe the subtle shudder feeling was just wrinkled pavement.)  I really am just trying to figure out how probable it is that I'd be in a situation where I needed right-now straight-line braking and ABS was the difference between stopping short and slamming into something.

If you know how to brake 100% and practice it a lot, then ABS is unlikely to be of use to you except under some pretty narrow circumstances. The only times I have had my ABS activate are when I try it out to see if it works and grab a big handful of brake, usually in the rain.

[jeremy556]

I can think back of one time when ABS would probably have saved my ass.  But that's it.  All my close calls (not that many), the crash reports I've read, the crash videos I've watched, the few car accidents I've been in and the few I've witnessed -- ABS would have made a difference in essentially none of them.  That's not to say that it can't save a rider -- I'm just talking about the data that I've collected.

I don't doubt that ABS can stop the bike faster than I can and without the threat of a front wheel lock-up crash.  I just wonder how rare it is that I'd be in the situation where I could stop in time, ABS or not, and the ABS would be necessary (either to stop shorter or to prevent a tire lockup).  I've faced emergency stop scenarios before, and, while no robot, I'm apparently not one to hammer the lever and lock the front tire.  I suppose that means I stop in a longer distance than I otherwise could (or that ABS could), despite my hard-braking practicing.

Really? I have personally witnessed at least 3 crashes that could have been prevented by ABS. All three were panic stops, one the rider grabbed too much front brake too fast and lost the front end, another was a locked rear tire, and the other was a rider trying to stop over a large railroad crossing (steel plate).

Improper use of the brakes and locking up a wheel seem to be one of the most common causes of crashes, including all those people that "had to lay her down" to avoid crashing  

[Busy Little Whiner]

 It is a safety device to make maximum braking more efficient.

True but deceptive... it's more of crutch... you know there are no short cuts to efficient braking...

I think a more useful tool is the Panic Brake Machine at the California Superbike School... you'll learn
more efficient threshold braking without ABS adding weight to your wheels and it's immune to ABS
componet failure... not to mention you'll feel more confident to handle anything the perverted highway
throws your way...  

Quote California Superbike School:
"Locking up the front wheel is one of the most terrifying parts of riding. Keith's Panic Brake Trainer
allows you to experience a fully locked front wheel and you will be trained to save it! Available at all
Two-Day Camp schools."

 

[Clive]

Really? I have personally witnessed at least 3 crashes that could have been prevented by ABS. All three were panic stops, one the rider grabbed too much front brake too fast and lost the front end, another was a locked rear tire, and the other was a rider trying to stop over a large railroad crossing (steel plate).

Improper use of the brakes and locking up a wheel seem to be one of the most common causes of crashes, including all those people that "had to lay her down" to avoid crashing  

Good information.  I don't know why, but I tend to stop pretty effectively without locking up either tire.  I don't imagine myself of MotoGP braking caliber, of course, but I recognize the importance of the skill and I'm diligent about practicing it.  (FWIW, I don't think my lines through curves are all that great, and I could probably be much better with the throttle.)  But the steel plate or its cousins -- that's something I could see myself encountering at the exact wrong moment.

[jeremy556]

BLS, IIRC a year or so ago you had a lowside, what was the cause?

[ben1364]

If you don't like ABS, don't get it.
If you like ABS, get it.

You said it all. Do you sense that there's a troll in our midst?  

[Busy Little Whiner]

BLS, IIRC a year or so ago you had a lowside, what was the cause?

I lowsided on H36 due to my error of turning the bike too soon and fell on black sand that covered the
corner... eventhough I couldn't see the sand I knew it was there from the day before and I should have
used a late apex which would placed my tires in the path cleared by the car tires... I was furious with
myself because that low side ended 21 years of crash free riding...  

[jeremy556]

I thought it had to do with braking, I was mistaken.

21 years is quite a record. Only time I have gone over 21 weeks without crashing is when I wasn't riding due to injuries  

[DataDan]

Motorycle Consumer News is the only US magazine that includes braking performance in every road test, and they both publish and post at their website a compilation of all test results annually.

After loading those results into Excel, I computed average braking distance for ABS and non-ABS bikes tested 2004-2006, 74 bikes in all. The ABS bikes performed slightly better, braking 60-0 in an average of 120.9 feet compared to 122.9 feet for non-ABS bikes.

The ABS bikes tested were:

model	60-0
Ducati ST4s	110.3
BMW R1200ST	117.6
BMW R1200RT	119.4
Honda VFR800FI/ABS	119.5
BMW K1200S	120.9
Honda GL1800A Gold Wing	121.1
BMW K1200R	121.1
BMW K1200GT	121.2
BMW K1200LT	121.6
BMW R1200S	122.7
BMW R1200GS	125.2
Yamaha FJR1300AE	130.5
average	120.9

Here are a few selected non-ABS bikes tested:

model	60-0
Buell XB12X Ulysses	129.0
Ducati Multistrada	127.7
Ducati ST3	113.6
Kawasaki Concours	122.0
Kawasaki KLR650	134.2
Suzuki DL650 V-Strom	122.9
Suzuki GSX-R750	119.2
Suzuki Burgman 650	120.8
Triumph Speed Triple	104.8
Triumph Tiger	118.8
Yamaha FZ1	114.4

[thatguy]

LARRY!!!!You hurt the RC45!!!!!I know I give you grief but I would sit on the road and cry like a bitch if I tossed the Tuono away.Damn that must have hurt.

[thatguy]

Oh and can you hang the rear wheel in the air going into a corner with ABS?I can without and it's one of the great feelings in motorcycling if you ask me.

[Jes_VFR]

True but deceptive... it's more of crutch... you know there are no short cuts to efficient braking...

That is true, and when I was much younger and healthier, I would have taken affront to the suggestion that I needed a gadget to help keep me safe. But as I have repeatedly beaten my body within mm's of death and grown a healthy dose of gray hair, I have changed my thinking into if it makes me a more consistent and safe rider then I think that I should consider it.
I've gone down on the track,
I've crashed rally cars in the woods,
I've destroyed three road racers, and much more. '

But in 24 years of street riding I have never crashed on the street. Oh yeah I've had my share of close calls, even a few miracles have occured, but I have never been down on the street.
I'd like to keep it that way, even if I have to consider a crutch like ABS.
Better to know my weakness and prepare a tool against it, then to not have the tool to when I need it.

I think a more useful tool is the Panic Brake Machine at the California Superbike School... you'll learn more efficient threshold braking without ABS adding weight to your wheels and it's immune to ABS componet failure... not to mention you'll feel more confident to handle anything the perverted highway throws your way...  

That is one way of thinking about it, but then again that high tech wetware driven ABS system (aka my brain and nervous system) is not without system crashes. for example
If it can easily be fooled by limitations of the sensors into not engaging fast enough.
It also can suffer from hysterisis (when it needs very small adjustments in very fast cycles, the bio-actuators make too large adjustments to slowly.
It can also suffer from total computational loss and fail by locking at one extreme or the other.

Nothing is perfect, You even washed out on black sand that you knew about. Maybe the abs would have bought you enough reduction in speed that you could have changed your line or maintained enough control to get off the sand and back on clean pavement?

[jeremy556]

Oh and can you hang the rear wheel in the air going into a corner with ABS?I can without and it's one of the great feelings in motorcycling if you ask me.

Yes.

[Busy Little Whiner]

LARRY!!!!You hurt the RC45!!!!!I know I give you grief but I would sit on the road and cry like a bitch if I tossed the Tuono away.Damn that must have hurt.

Oh mercy did it ever sting... but more to my pride than any one part... I've been preparing for such an
occasion since day one by machining my own delrin crash donuts... rear sets with hard mount 7075 T6
billet aluminum pegs and solid 7075 T6 billet aluminum bars... so as Mr.RC45 settled onto the donut... peg
and bars they provided a sturdy tripod to facilitate sliding on pavement... only when it plowed the leaves
did it suffer some scratches... my leathers suffered worst...

[Albie]

Hey!

How about a Llama!!! Sheesh!

[Uncle Bob]

I had it on my last bike, and I don't think it ever actuated.  

I think this sums up the over-the-top whining about how it will cause people to be over-confident, people won't learn proper braking, people will use it as a crutch ect ect.

ABS only engages when you already screwed up.  Its that simple.  If you engage ABS, intentially or otherwise, then you just created a situation that would have been a lot worse without it

It is good that you have never engaged it, that you are aware of.  And I hope you continue that trend.  Just like I personally never want to see my air bag deploy in my car.  I still like the idea that its there though

[Clive]

I think this sums up the over-the-top whining about how it will cause people to be over-confident, people won't learn proper braking, people will use it as a crutch ect ect.

ABS only engages when you already screwed up.  Its that simple.  If you engage ABS, intentially or otherwise, then you just created a situation that would have been a lot worse without it

It is good that you have never engaged it, that you are aware of.  And I hope you continue that trend.  Just like I personally never want to see my air bag deploy in my car.  I still like the idea that its there though

In case I haven't been clear, let me say that I fully believe ABS can emergency-stop the bike in less distance than I can on a wet road, a sandy road, a gravelly road, ... and probably (but not definitely) on a dry road.

But that's not the discussion.  My specific point is how many "oh shit" instances the average sport-touring rider is likely to see -- i.e., an instance bad enough that a front-wheel lockup is a risk but one that his brakes (whether ABS or non) would let him stop in time.

I'll be financing the bike, so tucking in another $600-$900 for ABS won't be too distasteful.  But there are so few bikes that offer ABS that it can become difficult to find a bike that presses the right buttons for me AND has ABS.  And that sucks.

[Jes_VFR]

But that's not the discussion.  My specific point is how many "oh shit" instances the average sport-touring rider is likely to see -- i.e., an instance bad enough that a front-wheel lockup is a risk but one that his brakes (whether ABS or non) would let him stop in time.

that depends a whooole lot on you, your location and other riding conditions.
For me
When I was commuting six days a week the bike to the dealership 50+ miles away. The situations that could instantly become "Oh Sh!te" moments occured about every three days. I practiced my SA skills all the time and only had a couple of OS moments.

[Clive]

that depends a whooole lot on you, your location and other riding conditions.

Fully agree.  This process has always been about my figuring out if ABS was right for me, based on my own riding and skills.  I don't get to tour as much as I'd hoped -- maybe once per year -- and am cranky enough that I take the cage if it looks like thunderstorms.  I love the bike, to be sure, but a 3-mile commute in a downpour just isn't fun to me anymore.  I had almost a decade of being motorcycle-only, but that ended 10 years and it's just not "me" these days.

[Global Rider]

I was furious with myself because that low side ended 21 years of crash free riding...

21 years? Thats great and impressive. I know how you might feel. I'm going on 33 years if you don't count parking lot tip-overs.

It amazes me how some brag about how many times in a year ABS has saved their hide.

Two things:
1) if that is really true, they seriously have to re-think their riding style and re-adjust it to their level of judgement.
2) how many times did they crash or get killed before they bought their first ABS equipped motorcycle?

[joema]

...My specific point is how many "oh shit" instances the average sport-touring rider is likely to see -- i.e., an instance bad enough that a front-wheel lockup is a risk but one that his brakes (whether ABS or non) would let him stop in time...I'll be financing the bike, so tucking in another $600-$900 for ABS won't be too distasteful.  But there are so few bikes that offer ABS that it can become difficult to find a bike that presses the right buttons for me AND has ABS....

Excellent points. While I'm an ABS believer, I rode non-ABS bikes for decades. In general for most careful, trained riders in a non-track situation, I think it's somewhat rare you'd encounter such a situation. After all, most bikes don't have ABS, and most riders don't have crashes ABS would have prevented.

The choice limitation of ABS-equipped bikes is also frustrating. This will likely change over time, as Honda has said 100% of their street bikes over 250cc will have ABS by 2010: http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/fukui/

There are various viewpoints: $900 for ABS seems expensive, but a single save is worth far more than this. OTOH, spending that for a riding or track school may be worth more than ABS, as it could save you from many types of accidents, not just braking-related ones.

[Busy Little Whiner]

Mechanical ABS is a 9 pound $900.00 accessory whereas Mental ABS is 0 pound 0 cost solution...      

[jeremy556]

After all, most bikes don't have ABS, and most riders don't have crashes ABS would have prevented.

I disagree.

I think a large percentage of motorcycle accidents could be prevented by ABS. How often do you hear of people locking the front wheel by grabbing the front brake too quickly, or locking up the rear wheel, then letting off and high siding? Hint: they usually say they “had to lay ‘er down.”

I think at least 95% of these crashes that could have been prevented with ABS could have also been prevented by the rider employing proper braking technique.

[Uncle Bob]

that depends a whooole lot on you, your location and other riding conditions.
For me
When I was commuting six days a week the bike to the dealership 50+ miles away. The situations that could instantly become "Oh Sh!te" moments occured about every three days. I practiced my SA skills all the time and only had a couple of OS moments.

little late, but I agree 100%.  People forget here, I think, that life is not the same for all bikers.  Some of us live in very dangerous enviroments, and get the joy of random situations that are very difficult to predict and react perfectly to every time.  

Some day I'll be perfect like BLS (although I'm pretty good at spotting sand on the road, unlike him, so I guess I'm more perfect in some ways)

[joema]

I disagree...I think a large percentage of motorcycle accidents could be prevented by ABS. How often do you hear of people locking the front wheel by grabbing the front brake too quickly, or locking up the rear wheel, then letting off and high siding? Hint: they usually say they “had to lay ‘er down.”...

My statement was "most riders don't have crashes ABS would have prevented". Since most riders don't crash at all, the statement is obviously true -- ABS can't help a crash which never happened.

Of the subset of total riders who have crashes, most are caused by the cager not seeing the bike or by the bike failing to negotiate a curve (Hurt report). Out of that subset, how many would ABS prevent. Not lessen severity, but prevent. I'm sure the answer is less than 50%, which means most (meaning more than 50%) of total accidents would not be prevented by ABS.

This doesn't mean ABS isn't useful, or that it wouldn't prevent lots of accidents. But I believe the original statement was correct.

[Clive]

Unfortunately, there are lots of ways to crash: lowsides, highsides from improper throttle or other rider malfunction, running wide in a curve, target fixation with little or no braking, over-aggressive braking that locks the front and dumps the rider, using rear brake only and having no chance of stopping in time, ...  ABS will help in some of these situations and help not at all in others.

And that is exactly why I set about trying to tease out those situations where ABS might aid the reasonably skilled rider (in this case, me  ) and identifying those where it wouldn't.

[Busy Little Whiner]

Some day I'll be perfect like BLS (although I'm pretty good at spotting sand on the road, unlike him, so I guess I'm more perfect in some ways)

Perfect??? I suck at riding... it's just you suck worst than I do Uncle Bob...

[Uncle Bob]

Perfect??? I suck at riding... it's just you suck worst than I do Uncle Bob...

hehe, took you a while to respond to that

I have no doubt you think you're more perfect.  You've stated that in various ways more times than I count

Keep repeating it often enough, you might even start believing it  

[cbsnbiker]

I don't know where you got that idea. I posted that if another vehicle that pulled in front of me hadn't stopped after my evasive maneuver, it would have hit me because ABS lengthened my stopping distance by several feet.  

The description is in the thread "ABS almost killed me."  

I got that idea from your description of the events. You locked your brakes. ABS was triggered. You didn't crash.

ABS saved your bacon. I'm glad it did. Seriously.

[Snowbird]

I got that idea from your description of the events. You locked your brakes. ABS was triggered. You didn't crash.

ABS saved your bacon. I'm glad it did. Seriously.

No... I applied my brakes to the maximum braking force the bike would muster, limited by the ***.

And, thanks.

[bikerfish1100]

No... I applied my brakes to the maximum braking force the bike would muster, limited by the ***.

And, thanks.

in that case, it sounds like you have issues with how Yamaha implemented ABS on the FRJ more than you have an issue with ABS in general.

[Mr Sunshine]

I'm with you Skip...when you have to narrow a discussion down to something small and varient just to win the argument then you've already lost.  

[Snowbird]

I'm with you Skip...when you have to narrow a discussion down to something small and varient just to win the argument then you've already lost.  

Yeah, but you're a suckhole.  

[Snowbird]

in that case, it sounds like you have issues with how Yamaha implemented ABS on the FRJ more than you have an issue with ABS in general.

Yes, I do have an issue with the FJR's ABS' stopping distance. I've not yet had time to look over some additional info provided here, especially with the Duc's ABS.

I have no overall issue with ABS so long as it works well and does not weigh a lot. It makes me wonder why the FJR gained 40 pounds the same year ABS became standard, but I'm assued by ST.N'ers that it isn't the ABS adding on the pounds; some sort of coincidence, I guess.   On the other hand, I've had no problems with non-ABS brakes, either. So, I still wonder what the hoopla is about.

I don't overall like the FJR's linked brakes either, even if they have one small advanage that did help me once.

[Mr Sunshine]

Yeah, but you're a suckhole.  

When did this become the dungeon?  I've stayed out of there for months and I'm happier because of it.

[Snowbird]

When did this become the dungeon?  I've stayed out of there for months and I'm happier because of it.

Just kidding.

[bomber]

wow -- so much typing, so many opinions, so little data ;-}

Mr. Busy -- I share many of your opinions wrt weight and rider skills -- just curious -- have you got a slipper clutch on any of your bikes (other than the one in your left hand, of course) . . .

[Busy Little Whiner]

wow -- so much typing, so many opinions, so little data ;-}

Mr. Busy -- I share many of your opinions wrt weight and rider skills -- just curious -- have you got a slipper clutch on any of your bikes (other than the one in your left hand, of course) . . .

Mr.RC45 came stock with a slipper clutch and I don't get to use much on the street but I definitely use it
during track days and racing... a V4 is like a V2 with regards to engine braking... it's easy to get the rear
wheel hoping during quick down shifts...

[bomber]

thanks -- just curious about the globalness of your opion of rider-assisting tech, is all

[cbsnbiker]

No... I applied my brakes to the maximum braking force the bike would muster, limited by the ***.

And, thanks.

You're still in denial. Here's what you wrote in another thread:

Anyway, I braked on the clean dry pavement to the point where the ABS activated.

In fact, you didn't apply your brakes to their maximum braking force; you exceeded that threshold. You locked your brakes. ABS unlocked your brakes and helped keep you upright.   for your ABS unit.

You're welcome. I'm glad you're still here to have this discussion.