Firebolt Stoppies

[Bueller]

I changed from a bike with a 28 degree rake to Firebolt with a 21 degree rake.

I'm a pretty ordinary rider who has never considered braking in 3 dimensions before, so now I am seeking more information; please pardon my ignorance.

After my first Stoppie (driver induced), I reduced the damping in the front, but I left the preload at 4.  I had a few attempts at getting the rear wheel up at low speeds, and figured that I had increased immunity.  The front was a bit too stiff before the adjustment.

Now, I may have more immunity, but I still have 3D braking.  I came into a Tee intersection with a bit of speed a while ago, and was slightly late on the brake to set up for the turn.  (I'd do the same safely in a car to avoid missing the green light.)  I could feel the back brake losing effect, so eased off the front brake.  (I thought it interesting that the front wheel was still turning while the rear was lifting, so it wasn't like the front wheel was locked.)  Anyway easing the front brake gave me back both brakes and I consequently figured I understood how to control it.  A bit too soon maybe, because I've I since managed to put the rear skyward to avoid another careless driver.

Now I might get a lot of people telling me I'm wrong, but I figure that if I sacrifice some preload, the front would dive more to soak up some of the front brake and reduce the force that lifts the back wheel.  4.5 is the recommended preload setting in the owner’s manual for my weight, but I am totally into my current set-up as it is.  The bike is cornering exactly how I like it, its tracking beautifully, and there is no jarring or chatter.  I hate diving under brakes and stretching the front suspension under throttle.  I really don't want to sacrifice anything.  When I first got the bike the dive was pretty severe.

My mishaps have just been interesting diversions.  They haven't felt particularly unsafe, though the cool is a bit mixed.  Lifting the rear wheel in the wet or with a car close behind may go beyond my control.

For those who would help, my ignorant questions are:
1) Is it common to come unstuck from putting the rear wheel up?
2) Is there any point in trying to reduce the preload (increase the setting),
    or will Stoppie remain part of the bike anyway?
3) Do you adapt?


All thoughts and experience welcome.  Any bike, not just just Buell.

[jeremy556]

1)   I don’t know what that means?  
2)   If the front end is diving, preload and other adjustments are not going to help much, you need stiffer springs and revalving to match.
3)   A short wheelbase, high COG, and a steep rake make for a bike that will want to lift the rear wheel under braking. Keep your weight as far rearward as you can and grip the tank tightly with your knees and keep your weight off your arms.

[Bueller]

1)   I don’t know what that means?  
2)   If the front end is diving, preload and other adjustments are not going to help much, you need stiffer springs and revalving to match.
3)   A short wheelbase, high COG, and a steep rake make for a bike that will want to lift the rear wheel under braking. Keep your weight as far rearward as you can and grip the tank tightly with your knees and keep your weight off your arms.

Thanks Jeremy

1) "Unstuck" is Australian for "lose control and fall off".  I guess riders come off doing wheelies but not as a rule.
    Are Stoppies more inclined to surprise the rider to the point where they lose control?
2) When I first got the bike the tendency to dive under brakes was uncomfortable.  I checked the front and rear
    suspension settings and found it was set for a very light weight rider. I set the suspension to the recommended
    for my weight, this effectively eliminated the dive.  I played with the preload on the front forks and found that
    I liked the stiffer setting.
    This morning, I looked up the Buell owner’s manual, and it says to increase compression damping to reduce dive.
    You can definitely tune the dive in and out of the front Showas.
3) I reckon that you are right.  I have always ridden with my weight in the middle of the bike, almost up on the
    tank.  I have to learn to change for the Firebolt and get the weight back.  The knee grip is also a good suggestion
    thank you.


The setup in the manual didn't completely work for me.  The setup was completely wrong to start with and it was still disappointing after the adjustment, so after the Stoppie I asked the dealer to redo it.  They set it by measuring the suspension sag with a rider the same weight as I am, and now I couldn't imagine a better set-up.  The experts got the setup right - not me.  The result is that the compression damping is less than the manual recommends and the preload front and rear is stiffer.

I can't see why front preload wouldn't change the dive.  Rear preload changes the shock travel for a given load, so the front should do the same.

[jeremy556]

Don't know too much, I don't really do any stoppies other than lifting the rear wheel a couple inches off the ground under hard braking. I would think you want to keep the bars straight, and stay off the rear brake to avoid stalling the engine, and I would think the rear wheel spinning may help to keep you upright and going straight.

I'm not 100% sure when it comes to Buell, but most bikes are undersrpung and overdamped to allow for a wide range of rider weights with "acceptable" performance and handling. Adjusting the preload and damping may help a little bit, but it is not going to make enough of a difference without adversely affecting the handling in other ways.

If you want your suspension setup right, you need to talk to a suspension expert that knows the Buells and can recommend the correct spring rate and valving for your weight and riding style. I mean a real, dedicated suspension place like GMD Computrack, Thermosman, and others; the people working at MC dealerships generally don't know what they are talking about.

[Bueller]

Adjusting the preload and damping may help a little bit, but it is not going to make enough of a difference without adversely affecting the handling in other ways.

I think that in the end this is the truth.  If I sag it down to reduce Stoppies, I won't be able to ride it.

I'm no track rider, and I can't imagine anything I would want to change in the going forward department at the moment.

The first and last events were more than a couple of inches.  In the absence of photographic evidence, the last one felt like about a foot and the first felt like a bit higher.  The reality is that they were probably no where near as high as they felt, but they were high enough for the rear wheel to bounce up again after landing.

I probably need to factor Stoppies into my braking distance, so I don't end up grabbing the brake.

[Kootenanny]

My suggestion is, leave the suspension as you like it for riding, and learn to deal with the stoppies.

I was also surprised the first time I "accidentally" lifted the rear wheel of my Firebolt, but I've done it several times now over the past three years and not once have I felt out of control.  The rear wheel comes up a bit, that's all (and I agree, it can feel  like a foot and a half, but it's more likely only a few inches).  I mentioned one occurance in this thread, and was told I was braking incorrectly--which I deny, if the rear is in the air you are at the point of maximum braking effort (any more and you'll be on your face in front of the bike!).

I actually go out and practice these "stoppies" (AFAIK, a "real" stoppie involves riding the bike for a prolonged distance on the front wheel, at least as the stuntas describe it).  I feel it's important to know how the bike will react in a given situation.  I've even had the rear wheel in the air at 130 km/hr, when a deer ran out in front of me--as I said above, I still felt completely in control (I was off the brakes at around 80 km/hr, I did not come to a complete stop).  I've also had people tell me to get my weight back, but hey, I'm a short-ass with stubby little arms, and even with the Helibars riser I can't comfortably ride while sitting way back--I tend to ride up close to the tank.  So for me, stoppies are a fact of life with the Firebolt, and I just accept that and accomodate.  Kinda fun, actually...

[PlayWithGravity]

I ride pretty hard and my only stoppies (in 10,000 miles) have been intentional.  And by "stoppie" I mean the "foot and a half" that Rogue described above

Good luck getting used to your 'Bolt.  I love mine!!

[Bueller]

My suggestion is, leave the suspension as you like it for riding, and learn to deal with the stoppies.

I was also surprised the first time I "accidentally" lifted the rear wheel of my Firebolt, but I've done it several times now over the past three years and not once have I felt out of control. The rear wheel comes up a bit, that's all (and I agree, it can feel  like a foot and a half, but it's more likely only a few inches).  I mentioned one occurance in this thread, and was told I was braking incorrectly--which I deny, if the rear is in the air you are at the point of maximum braking effort (any more and you'll be on your face in front of the bike!).

I actually go out and practice these "stoppies" (AFAIK, a "real" stoppie involves riding the bike for a prolonged distance on the front wheel, at least as the stuntas describe it).  I feel it's important to know how the bike will react in a given situation.  I've even had the rear wheel in the air at 130 km/hr, when a deer ran out in front of me--as I said above, I still felt completely in control (I was off the brakes at around 80 km/hr, I did not come to a complete stop).  I've also had people tell me to get my weight back, but hey, I'm a short-ass with stubby little arms, and even with the Helibars riser I can't comfortably ride while sitting way back--I tend to ride up close to the tank.  So for me, stoppies are a fact of life with the Firebolt, and I just accept that and accomodate.  Kinda fun, actually...

Thanks for this Kootenanny.  I would have agreed 100% before the journey home tonight.  Its is what I wanted to hear.  The only problem is that I managed to turn a Firebolt Stoppie into a Firebolt somersault tonight.  Both the back of me and the back of the bike ended up on the back of a car.  I guess that I've predicted my own downfall, it is certainly something that has been on my mind.

I couldn't have been doing more than 10kph.  There was a bit of slow-motion but only from the pivot point (top of the somersault), but I'm not sure that I had much time to react from the time it lifted.  I went into a roundabout that has a tram that goes through the middle.  Normally there are lights that indicate when a tram is coming through, and the tram is hidden by trees as it comes into the roundabout.  The lights didn't work (until 3 trams later) so the guy in front was caught by surprise and had to break hard, I couldn't see the tram from where I was so the first I knew was when his brake lights went on.

A bit stiff but my fault particularly since I was trying to slip into the roundabout ahead of cars that were just about to enter from the street before.

The only breakage was an inch off the footpeg, but the fairing and headlight are scratched and need to be replaced.  I came home on two wheels, its a pretty tough bike.  The car has a scratch on the rear bumper, so all up its a pretty cheap lesson.

I can fix the bike and I don't give a rats about my pride.  Where I have a real problem is to manage a behaviour that is going to put a premature end to my riding.  Lessons are certainly on the list, but I really think I need an expert to look at the stiffness.  Maybe it's a case of "live and let dive".  It is so easy to lift the back on my bike that I can't believe that others don't have the same problem.   Lifting the back is one thing, but I never dreamed it would flip.  It was dead straight over, the fairing has gravel rash right in the middle just below the screen.

[Bueller]

I ride pretty hard and my only stoppies (in 10,000 miles) have been intentional.  And by "stoppie" I mean the "foot and a half" that Rogue described above

Good luck getting used to your 'Bolt.  I love mine!!

I love mine too.  We've done 4,000Km in 4 months and its winter here.

The serious problem for me is that my riding skills just aren't up to easing off on the front brake just before flipping.

I've ridden almost all my time on Laverdas, and while the front comes up, you need a government permit and a crane to lift the rear.   This is just totally new to me.

When I look at the stunt riders doing stoppies they have two fingers on the brake so they can hold onto the bars, and control the brake.  When I do an emergency grab I use all fingers.  It's then harder to relax the brake because I'm also squeezing to hang on.  There is a lot to learn and a lot to unlearn.

I like your pic.  It shows you enjoy the bike.

[Rogue]

Sorry for the crash Bueller.  Sounds painful.  Hope you're okay and the bike gets back on the road.  

I don't ever remember experiencing a Stoppie on my Firebolt.  I have had incidents where I had to apply near full power to the front brakes.  But I do apply nearly the same braking force to the rear brakes.  I do this because I know from experience bikes stop faster with BOTH wheels are trying to stop the bike.  Also, rear braking action helps to level and stabilize the bike, and therefore it takes away some brake dive.

Can you experience loosing front tire traction and lowside during a hard stop?  Yes.  Many crashes in traffic occur that why.  The rider applies too much brake force, front tire locks up and tucks in and down they go.  

In my humble opinion, if you want maximum braking, apply BOTH front and rear to the point just below lock up.  Also, I agree with Kootenay.  Tune your suspension to handling NOT braking.  

[Kootenanny]

OMG! Sorry to hear about the flipover, Bueller.  Glad you're OK, and the bike doesn't sound like it's too damaged (yeah, they're tough...).

This is one thing I admit to being concerned about on my Bolt, since on three occasions since I've owned it, I've had the rear wheel off the ground during emergency braking.  I've always been able to feather the brake and let it down, though (as I said above, I intentionally practice this).

Rogue, I understand completely what you're saying about using both brakes--I use both a fair bit of the time too, but when I'm at speed on the highway and a deer runs out, I gotta say I depend on the front brake.  The rear brake on the Firebolt is weak--intentionally, since the geometry does allow massive weight transfer to the front under heavy braking, which would make the rear prone to lockup were the rear brake really effective.  Once the rear is in the air, it cannot add any braking effect to the bike anyway.  And the laws of physics promise that a bike that's braked with the front only to the point where the rear wheel is just skimming the ground with no weight on it (or maybe an inch in the air) is exerting more brake force than a bike with both brakes engaged and working.

[Bueller]

Sorry for the crash Bueller.  Sounds painful.  Hope you're okay and the bike gets back on the road.  

I don't ever remember experiencing a Stoppie on my Firebolt.  I have had incidents where I had to apply near full power to the front brakes.  But I do apply nearly the same braking force to the rear brakes.  I do this because I know from experience bikes stop faster with BOTH wheels are trying to stop the bike.  Also, rear braking action helps to level and stabilize the bike, and therefore it takes away some brake dive.

Can you experience loosing front tire traction and lowside during a hard stop?  Yes.  Many crashes in traffic occur that why.  The rider applies too much brake force, front tire locks up and tucks in and down they go.  

In my humble opinion, if you want maximum braking, apply BOTH front and rear to the point just below lock up.  Also, I agree with Kootenay.  Tune your suspension to handling NOT braking.  

Thanks Rogue,

No pain.  Once I checked out the damage, my knee started to swell, but with ice, compression and two whiskeys its fine today.  The bike has about AUS$300, so judging from the markups etc here it would be about US$150 maybe $200.  The new helmet cost more.  I'll post a pic.

I've been doing some reading up on the Showa forks, and one of the things that needs to be considered is that increasing the preload (reducing the setting) also reduces the rake angle.  The Firebolt is only one degree above the legal minimum, so reducing the rake is putting the bike into territory that is considered unsafe.  My front preload is set for someone 30lbs (10-15 kg) heavier than I am.  (I'm 6' and 200lbs so I'm no feather weight).

The handling on the bike is really sharp.  It corners lower for a given speed than the Laverda, but then there's nothing to scrape before the shoulder.  At the same time it is just not normal for the back wheel to go over your head when you clamp the front brake at less than 10mph.  You can see from the pick that the bike hit the tarmac on the high points on the right headlight and the centre of the fairing.  It then rolled off to the right hand side.  The bike was facing the opposite direction when I picked it up.




I'm a big believer in the back brake.  You can start loosing speed before you get your fingers off the grip and onto the front brake, and it also adds stability because it stops the back wheel overtaking the front.  I was on on the back brake, but once the back wheel is airborne it doesn't help.

I've read your postings on the setup for your bike, and I completely agree.  Set it up for a bit lighter weight.  I think that mine is like this except that the preload in the front is adding extra stiffness.  I have it booked in at the dealer tomorrow morning, and we are going to spend the morning sorting it out.  I am going to try to get the front end up higher without adding sponge.  I am just not good enough to ride it the way it is.

[Bueller]

OMG! Sorry to hear about the flipover, Bueller.  Glad you're OK, and the bike doesn't sound like it's too damaged (yeah, they're tough...).

This is one thing I admit to being concerned about on my Bolt, since on three occasions since I've owned it, I've had the rear wheel off the ground during emergency braking.  I've always been able to feather the brake and let it down, though (as I said above, I intentionally practice this).

Rogue, I understand completely what you're saying about using both brakes--I use both a fair bit of the time too, but when I'm at speed on the highway and a deer runs out, I gotta say I depend on the front brake.  The rear brake on the Firebolt is weak--intentionally, since the geometry does allow massive weight transfer to the front under heavy braking, which would make the rear prone to lockup were the rear brake really effective.  Once the rear is in the air, it cannot add any braking effect to the bike anyway.  And the laws of physics promise that a bike that's braked with the front only to the point where the rear wheel is just skimming the ground with no weight on it (or maybe an inch in the air) is exerting more brake force than a bike with both brakes engaged and working.

Hi Kootenanny,

You can tell I am concerned about it because I started the thread.  Lifting the back wheel 1.5 ft (and I have less reason to doubt my original impression than I did before) is one thing.  Putting the back wheel 6 foot into the air like those who saw it claim is another thing completely.  The bike hit the car on the fall.  It's not like it hit and then went up  If I was going at 100 mph maybe you could find justification, but at 6 metres (20ft) from stationary into an intersection following a car, I still don't understand why I am the world's biggest ninja turtle . Firebolt flippies are a dimension beyond Firebolt stoppies.

When I get it sorted out tomorrow I'll post the change in settings.  I reckon that there's a lesson for someone somewhere in all of this.

Thanks for the post

[Rogue]

Bueller, one other thing to consider regarding Firebolt Flippies.

During hard stops, when your rear wheel begins to lift off the ground, continued application of full braking force to the front will further cause weight transfer.  Thus, lifting the rear further upwards.  Once it reaches a point of no return, the bike, any bike, will flip.  

Performing a stoppie is when the rider is able to modulate the front brakes to balance the bike at its equilibrium point.  If you watch some botched stoppie video, sometimes they apply too much brake force during an attempted Stoppie and their bikes flip!

So, to avoid the flip during an emergency stop, rider needs to know when to ease off the front braking just enough to allow the rear to skim along the surface as Koot said.  Easier said than done during an emergency braking manuever!  

[Bueller]

Thanks Rogue, Kootenanny

The stunt guys have their bikes set up for the stoppies, and to a certain extent I think that mine is as well at the moment.

If flippies were a common risk with emergency braking we'd have more turtles on their backs.  

Could I ask you both for the number of preload marks visible on your forks, and if you know it, the preload setting on the rear shock?  It might help me with the setup of mine.

[Kootenanny]

My forks show 3 lines, the 4th is just at the top of the nut.  Without removing my seat, I believe my rear preload is set at 4 or 5 out of 7.  I'm right around 70 kg, and I do have a Helibars riser mounted (so my clip-ons are about 4 cm back from stock).

I'm really interested in this--please continue to post about it.  

[jeremy556]

Sorry about your accident.

If the forks are diving under braking with an already steep rake angle, you really need to install stiffer springs. Changing the preload affects the ride height but does nothing to affect spring rate.

[Bueller]

Sorry about your accident.

If the forks are diving under braking with an already steep rake angle, you really need to install stiffer springs. Changing the preload affects the ride height but does nothing to affect spring rate.

Hi Jeremy et al,

Thanks for the settings Kootenanny,

I had a geometry lesson with the dealer this morning.  You are quite correct about the preload, but when you alter the ride height you alter the rake angle.  A bit like chopping the bike.  However it works the opposite way to what I thought, the more you wind it in the higher your ride height, because the bike sags less with your weight on.  It stays closer to the unladen height.  The effect of this in changing the rake angle is small, and my setting was a tiny bit towards a longer rake rather than shorter.  They left the preload where it is.

The dive on the Buell is controlled with the compression damping.  Just a screwdriver setting.  It makes a huge difference without going to springs.  One of the adjustments was to reduce the damping slightly which as expected has introduced a bit of dive, but at the moment we are in a see how you go phase.  I think that we will probably end up increasing the damping.

They made a more radical change. They pushed the forks about 7mm further down into the triple clamp.  This raises the steering head and increases the rake.  Its not like turning the Firebolt into a Lightening long, but it should make the back a bit harder to lift, and the front a bit easier to lift.  I said that the front didn't worry me.  Accidental wheelies haven't been an issue.

The ride is quite different.  Still good but perhaps more conventional.  It goes down into a corner more easily than before, but it is less agile through a series.  We will start tuning from here to see what we can get out of it.

I also got a riding lesson from the test rider.  It has convinced me to go and get some professional lessons.  He said that I will always be able to sit the Firebolt on it nose, and he suggested that in extreme circumstances it might be preferable to making contact.  His advice on riding is pretty much what you have all been telling me here.  I need to practice braking, and in particular to learn how to brake initially, let go of the front with the rear fully down, and then pull on the front again.

I'm going to need lessons to get me there. I need to learn how to ride a short wheelbase bike.  Maybe after that I'll reset the suspension to the way it was.

[Kootenanny]

OK, interesting.

I have a fair bit of compression damping dialed in, not so much rebound...I ride pretty hard on twisty roads, so precision is a bit more important to me than compliance (although some of the pavement is pretty rough, so I do need some compliance!)

About the professional training--always a good idea.  I used to teach a riding course, so I have a good understanding of the basics--I am keen to attend a track course some day, though (it'll mean taking a trip, since there are no tracks anywhere near where I live).

BTW, sounds like you have a great dealer.  My dealer (four hours away) wouldn't know a suspension setting if it bit him on the ass...  When I bought the bike, they spent a good ten minutes pointing out where all the controls were ("This is the throttle, this lever is the front brake,' etc.) even though I had already taken several demo rides, so they knew I knew this stuff.  When I asked about it, I was told it was for "insurance reasons."  OK, that's fine.  But not once did they mention suspension settings, where to find them, anything like that...I'm on my own there!

[Thor]

Did anyone mention what you do with your legs during a quick stop on a sportbike?

If I don't squeeze the tank as hard as I can with my legs and use as little of my arms as possible to control the stopping forces, the rear will come up easily and early.

It seems that this might help the lifting some.