Firebolt Stoppies

[Bueller]

BTW, sounds like you have a great dealer.  My dealer (four hours away) wouldn't know a suspension setting if it bit him on the ass...  When I bought the bike, they spent a good ten minutes pointing out where all the controls were ("This is the throttle, this lever is the front brake,' etc.) even though I had already taken several demo rides, so they knew I knew this stuff.  When I asked about it, I was told it was for "insurance reasons."  OK, that's fine.  But not once did they mention suspension settings, where to find them, anything like that...I'm on my own there!

They are good.  

I was disappointed with the original set-up.  The owner's manual says that it is set up for your weight, and mine was not.  I took it back and they redid the set-up for no charge and no questions.

Yesterday they took a fair amount of time explaining the changes in set-up.  After the changes they insisted that it had to be ridden by their pilot before I tried it.  He then went through the things that he tested on the ride, and explained the changes that I need to look at making with my braking.

I'd only come in for the suspension, but they checked the bike over because they knew I had fallen.  They pulled off the airbox cover and checked for oil leakage after the flip; they also spotted that the belt guard was rubbing on the belt, and loosened and re-tightened the wheel bolt to release tension that had built up.  They did it on the spot with one day's notice and the charge was modest.

On BadWeb there is some chat about not letting Harley trained mechanics work on a Buell.  These guys seem good with both.
Posted on: August 23, 2007, 03:57:53 am

Did anyone mention what you do with your legs during a quick stop on a sportbike?

If I don't squeeze the tank as hard as I can with my legs and use as little of my arms as possible to control the stopping forces, the rear will come up easily and early.

It seems that this might help the lifting some.

Hi Thor,

Thanks for the suggestions.  I agree,  but I am finding steep the steep rake on the bike a new experience, and I am unprepared for this type of event.  I may have done something different at the time if I seriously believed that a 1200cc bike could flip on the front brake.  Seriously naive.

Before the flip Jeremy posted similar advice about the knees so I was conscious of it as I lifted.  I must have been up passed 45 degrees when I figured that the knees were not going to hold on, and my weight was involuntarily going further forward as the bike lifted; there was probably a point at which my weight started to pull the bike over.

With practice and lessons I think that I could apply this as part of a strategy of keeping the back down.  Keeping the weight off the bars I think was another problem when things started to get out of hand.  My weight was transferring to the front and I was conscious of using my arms to stop my head from hitting the screen.  The other problem with this was I was holding on tight so I was also squeezing the brake.  All of this was involuntary.

While the measures to prevent a flip seem common sense, they were really not intuitive to me during the event.   Its the sort of thing that needs to be practiced to become second nature, so that the instatenous decisions in a panic situation are the right ones.  Kinda like a fire drill.

Thanks for the post.

Posted on: August 23, 2007, 04:57:01 am
I checked my speed tonight and I was probably doing more like 30 to 40kph (20-25mph), so the forces were starting to be significant.
Posted on: August 23, 2007, 04:59:01 am

apply BOTH front and rear to the point just below lock up

What I have noticed since this is that I am very slow to get to the back brake.  It is because I use the Riders Pegs which are dropped 1".  I don't need them for comfort, but they are easier to get the feet on and off in traffic,  and I prefer cornering with my feet planted lower.

The adjustment at maximum cannot drop the brake peg low enough to match the angle of my foot.  I need to lift my foot off and up a long way to get on to it.  The pegs also have a slight slope at the top which pushes the foot out from the bike, so there is less of the brake to contact.

I'm going to need to think about this.  

[Kootenanny]

What I have noticed since this is that I am very slow to get to the back brake.  It is because I use the Riders Pegs which are dropped 1".  I don't need them for comfort, but they are easier to get the feet on and off in traffic,  and I prefer cornering with my feet planted lower.

The adjustment at maximum cannot drop the brake peg low enough to match the angle of my foot.  I need to lift my foot off and up a long way to get on to it.  The pegs also have a slight slope at the top which pushes the foot out from the bike, so there is less of the brake to contact.

I'm going to need to think about this.  

I have Lightning pegs on my bike (1" drop), and I had to modify the brake adjuster a bit so I could drop the brake pedal enough.  My shifter is also near the end of its adjustment.  It seems a bit strange to me that these controls don't easily adjust to the lower pegs, since AFAIK the Lightning is pretty much identical to the Firebolt, with some different parts (like the lower pegs)--I'd have thought the adjusters were the same on both.

[Rogue]

What I have noticed since this is that I am very slow to get to the back brake.  It is because I use the Riders Pegs which are dropped 1".  I don't need them for comfort, but they are easier to get the feet on and off in traffic,  and I prefer cornering with my feet planted lower.

The adjustment at maximum cannot drop the brake peg low enough to match the angle of my foot.  I need to lift my foot off and up a long way to get on to it.  The pegs also have a slight slope at the top which pushes the foot out from the bike, so there is less of the brake to contact.

I'm going to need to think about this.  

I too have the rider pegs and I did notice I need to lift my foot up more to get a good "step" on the rear brake.  Nothing I haven't gotten used to.  I may have to replace the reare brake pedal with one from a Lightning.  I have to check my friend's Lightning rear brake pedal.

I do really like the Buell Rider footpegs.  It is more comfortable AND it makes putting my feet down to the ground more natural as you said.

[Bueller]

My last reply got lost on the post so I will just abbreviate.

I checked out foot brake leavers and they are the same on all 2007 Buells.  It's the riding angle of the lightenings and Ulysses that make then work.  I and getting the push rod shortened next week.

I have a new fairing on order, but if this one can be repaired at a reasonable cost, I am going to get the Hella lights fitted.  I am keen to get a dual low beam.

 

[Yankee Dog]

..................... I couldn't see the tram from where I was so the first I knew was when his brake lights went on.
....................................... Where I have a real problem is to manage a behaviour that is going to put a premature end to my riding. .......................

I dont mean to flame you, but have you considered slowing down a bit when you cant see what is ahead of you.  Also, you might consider not waiting until the last minute to apply the brakes.  A lot of stoppies sound a bit squidly to me.  

Apologies but as you allude to above, I believe your solution is behavior based and not in supension set up.  

Yankee Dog

[Bueller]

I dont mean to flame you, but have you considered slowing down a bit when you cant see what is ahead of you.  Also, you might consider not waiting until the last minute to apply the brakes.  A lot of stoppies sound a bit squidly to me.  

Apologies but as you allude to above, I believe your solution is behavior based and not in supension set up.  

Yankee Dog

Hi YD,

That's what my wife says, did she put you up to this?

If slowing down were the solution it would be all too easy, but I start getting puff'd when I push my bike long distances.  My speed is modest.  I usually ride within or close to the speed limit nowdays.  Certainly in town I keep my speed down.  I don't go charging around or dropping monos, I may slip between the cars at the lights, but apart from that I am a citizen.

The problem is not speed, it is controlling the chacteristics of the bike.  I can lift the back wheel by braking hard at rolling speeds.  It is a characteristic of the geometry and weight of the bike.

Have you ever had to apply your brakes for an emergency stop?  If you never have then you don't know what your bike will do, or what you will do.  Does it slide, does it lift, is it  too spongy?  What do you have to do to compensate?

I have been hit by a car that failed to give way. I have fallen sliding when a car backed out of the driveway onto the road in the middle of a curve.  In both cases I was going at the speed limit, which is a good deal faster that I was on Monday night.  I have to brake.  Sometimes I have to squeeze tight, but I must learn to regain contol when my brain panics.

What I alluded to above was leaving a greater distance behind the car to factor in braking reflex. In a roundabout we bunch up (have a look next time), and even if we anticipate a stop dead ahead, we need to first observe it and then react.

While sudden braking in the wet is always riskier,  my last bike would not have had a problem with this stop in the dry, and maybe not in the wet.

It is possible that this has happened to me a few times over the years.  I stopped each time, and so my brain says OK this is what is done in a panic.  The whole thing is automatic.  The Firebolt is new to me, and it flips when I do what I have always done.  I need to look at what it takes to get it right.  The stupidest thing that I could do is to get up and continue as though nothing has happened.

I ride everyday in the city in all weather.  We have trams here and some intersections have more steel than ashphelt.  Putting a wheel back up on the rails is not recommended in the Road Saftey Board handbook.  Learn and practice.

Thanks for the time to post.  Your comment's welcome.  No risk on the flame.

CU round

[Kootenanny]

I ride everyday in the city in all weather.

Aha!  I think I see your problem...ya gotta get outta the city!  

[Bueller]

Aha!  I think I see your problem...ya gotta get outta the city!  

I just can't help myself.  It's the thought of getting on the bike that gets me out of bed in the morning.


BTW I did get out of the city this weekend with the new Buell Riders Club Australia.  You probably saw the couple of pics I put into the ride reports.  In a couple of weeks I will take a 600k weekend return run to catch up with a mate that I keep in contact with but haven't seen since school.  Even around town, most of my travelling is on the expressways.

CU

[Bueller]

I'm trying to let this topic die, but there is a bit more to add.

I know of two other Buells that went over their front wheels during emergency braking situations in Melbourne last week.

One is a guy I have started riding with.  He's a very experienced rider that has had the Firebolt for 3 years.  He managed to just avoid a flip but the bike came down at an angle and he couldn't hold the drop.

The other is from a friend's motorcycle racing club.  He hasn't had the Buell for long.  My friend thinks that it would probably be a Firebolt because that's his style.  He went all the way over same as me.

So the warning is out there.  These bikes can flip in an emergency if you don't know what you are going to do in an emergency.

[Thor]

So can any sportbike.

I had a friend flip a ZX-10 when a truck pulled out in front of him a few years back.

With the weight down low and mass centralization, I would think the Buell would be the least likely to flip.

My vote still goes with poor technique.

I was riding a training bike a couple weekends ago with a tank that was so small I couldn't squeeze it with my thighs.  I had the rear in the air demonstrating a quick stop.  All my weight was on my arms and it levered it right up.

I reached for the ground with my left foot, and the ground was a little too far away and the rear swung around.  I decided to set the rear down then.

[Bueller]

My vote still goes with poor technique.

So does mine.

With the weight down low and mass centralization, I would think the Buell would be the least likely to flip.

I guess this is my latest warning.  

Don't believe that they are difficult to flip. The big front brake has a real bite, and the sharp rake means that the point of balance comes very early.  The launch of the Firebolt in Australia was accompanied by one very red face.  An experienced motorcycle journalist flipped the bike on a mistimed stoppie.  It ended the photo shoot.  His technique was not prepared for the geometry of the Buell.

I'm making no excuses for my riding ability, it was the big factor.  I've now gone passed the point of asking for help because I know what I need to learn to help manage the rear wheel lift.

What's left is an attempt to prepare other sport bike owners for the possibility that they may not be able to keep the back down with emergency braking.  It seems best to know how your bike will behave in an emergency, and to practice for the emergency.

I appreciate your input.  Thanks

[Kootenanny]

With the weight down low and mass centralization, I would think the Buell would be the least likely to flip.

Technique issues aside, the Firebolt does lift the rear easily, and therefore is prone to flip.

The weight is very well balanced, but it is not necessarily "low" the way a cruiser's would be.  Putting the center of mass too low is not great for handling--it should be around the center of the bike, because the whole bike rolls around it when leaning, and you'll lean faster if it's centered.  One reason the muffler can be mounted under the engine is that the engine doesn't sit too low (plus, it has no oil sump hanging under it to get in the way).

As Bueller says, it's in part the fact the rake is so steep, the wheelbase so tight, and the weight bias is so forward--all things that make the bike handle very well everywhere else!  It's easy to get the rear up because the front contact patch is closer to the center of mass than it is on many other bikes, and therefore it takes less effort to lever it up.

But yeah, with familiarity and technique it's not too much of an issue, for me anyways.  It may stoppie easily, but I don't think I'll be looping mine anytime soon, like the ZX-14 owner who posted on ST.N  

[Bueller]

I came across this great pic, and thought that this would be the place to put it.

The same site said that Craig Jones holds the world record for a stoppie on a modified Buell Firebolt.  873 ft (266 metres).  When I looked on www.craigjones.com I saw that one of the mods was 30kg of ballast in the front fairing.  A bit contrived.

Then below it said that he needed to do this to beat his previous world record of 740 ft (225 metres) on a stock XB9R.

[Rogue]

Some people just have an extraordinary sense of balance and coordination.  

[Bueller]

Some people just have an extraordinary sense of balance and coordination.  

Yeah, he makes it look so easy. Judging his size compared to the bike, he may not be particularly light weight, and you see he has the bike way up.

See how the bars are in front of the front axle. Craig Jones has the front forks leaning even further forward of the axle on his stoppies.

The setup has some obvious contributions here. The front tyre seems to be running a lower pressure to help distribute the balance, and the way the forks are fully compressed suggests that the damping is designed to bottom out quickly and then give lift to the rear. This would make it easier to stoppie and also easier to flip. As you say, his balance is extraordinary.