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Topic: BUELL - new V Twin  (Read 3667 times)

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Busy Little Whiner
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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2007, 04:53:39 PM »


I really haven't read much at all about this bike.  What's the reason Eric decided to use a different engine?  It was just a few years ago he was so passionate about keeping the much simpler, more than efficient air cooled lump.


Probably because the "air cooled lump" generated too many compromises in the execution of a modern sport bike... the press rated the handling "quirky"...

 Quote Sportrider:
"Ask any motorcyclist about the Buell XB12R Firebolt, and you will
invariably get either an extremely positive or extremely negative
reaction. Our testers are no different and, in general, are similarly
divided in their subjective opinions of the bike. In our last test of the
04 Firebolt ("Fighting Fire with Fire; Dec. 03), as with the original
XB9R, we were stymied by what we called "quirky handling" and
frustrated by how easy it was to go astray with the bike's setup. We
experimented with our 04 test unit and then an '06 version, with the
goal of making the Firebolt less sensitive to chassis setup, as well as
removing some of the quirks."

"While many riders praise the Firebolt's cornering abilities, stability
and suspension, others are disconcerted by its steering
characteristics. Those properties include a desire to stand up on the
brakes, generally heavy steering and the requirement for constant
force on the inside clip-on to hold a steady line. Experienced riders
can tweak the suspension to minimize the distractions those handling
traits present or simply deal with them more easily than others. But
we are curious types and wanted to improve the Buell's steering
without sacrificing any of its positive traits."

IN THEORY...
When a motorcycle leans to turn a corner, there are many forces at
work. These are determined by more than just the steering geometry.
Tire profile plays a big part, especially at moderate lean angles,
thanks to a property generally known as camber thrust. The effect of
camber thrust can be shown by picturing the front wheel as the
base of a cone turned on its side, with the side of the cone rolling
along the pavement.

Leaned into a turn, the tip of the cone would be an imaginary point
on the pavement inside the turn, its position determined by the tire's
profile. Just as the imaginary cone will turn to one side if rolled, the
front wheel will try to turn into the corner and not go straight. If
other cornering forces do not perfectly offset that turning force, an
additional rider input will be required to keep the bike holding a
specific turning radius.

"Many factors contribute to how this camber thrust is offset, but the
Buell has a constant requirement for the rider to counter steer into
the turn. In our experience, this effect is sometimes a result of a
too-steep rake angle (the Buell has a rake of 21 degrees), and
traditionally we have always raised the front ride height of our Buell
test bikes to offset this. This increases trail as well, however, making
for heavier and slower steering. This is where the knife-edge of the
Firebolt's setup comes into play: As the camber-thrust effect is
gradually reduced by adding rake, the additional trail makes steering
too heavy before the camber thrust is eliminated. There is no
happy medium."

IN REALITY...
"Another factor that makes the Firebolt's steering feel awkward to us
is the clip-on placement. The bars are mounted to the top triple
clamp and are located far ahead of the usual position, just in front of
the fork tubes. The swing effect introduced by this location-the bars
move sideways considerably when the front end is turned-leads to
a lot of wasted effort when steering. Our first modification to the XB
was to replace the top clamp with a Heli Performance unit ($320),
which brought the bars closer to the fork tubes and slightly higher.
While rake and trail can be adjusted independently using aftermarket
triple clamps, we went right to the source and tried different tire
combinations and profiles, including rounded and triangular extremes
and even a 60-series front tire. For each setup, we adjusted the
suspension and front ride height to find the best compromise, and our
final iteration of the '04 project Firebolt used Michelin Power Race
tires. The low profile of the front Power Race bun let us add rake (by
raising the front of the bike) without adding excessive trail, and we
were able to find a good setting that minimized the bike's camber
thrust and kept steering reasonably light."

"Now there was a range of ride heights albeit a small range-in which
the bike had almost neutral steering. During a track day at the
Streets of Willow, one rider who tests lot of American iron proclaimed
it the best Buell he had ever ridden. At that point, we had to return
our Firebolt, but we gladly took possession of '06 model in return. We
swapped over all our goodies from the old bike to the new, along with
some additional upgrades. Buell's Pro-Series suspension kit, which
consists of a set of slightly stiffer fork springs and a straight-rate
shock spring (the stock unit is progressive) was installed, and using
what we learned from the '04 bike and our giant street tire test
("Street Sense"' Dec.'05), we spooned on a set of Michelin Pilot
Power tires."

"Right away, we could tell the combination of the front Michelin's
profile and the Pro-Series springs was almost perfectly suited to the
Buell, with the steering light and neutral at practically any lean angle.
Only at higher speeds can the new project bike's steering be
considered heavy, and even in that case, it's lighter than stock.
We've always praised the XB's quality Showa suspension, and the kit
parts improved it even further. The rear spring especially allows full
use of the shock's travel, providing a plusher ride and allowing the
bike to track much better over rough pavement."

WHAT ABOUT THE REST?
"We mounted up a set of Sato Racing's rearsets ($650), which have
short, solid-mount footpegs on adjustable brackets. Installation was
a snap, although the brake pedal needed a small spacer that wasn't
in the kit. To accommodate the drastic ride height changes we were
making, we swapped out the stock stainless steel front brake hose
for a slightly longer part we happened to have in the shop."

"In the engine bay,we started with a Buell Pro-Series race exhaust
($359.95), ECM ($209.95) and air filter ($64.95), but switched the
very loud Buell pipe for a beautiful Ti Force 2-into-l-into-2-into-l
stainless steel system ($1320.90 from Orient Express). The Ti Force
pipe doesn't make quite the top-end power of the Buell race pipe, but
it really bumps up low-end and midrange over the stocker. Both
setups ran better with the Pro-Series ECM installed, as opposed to
the stock blackbox. Interestingly, the '06 bike's new air intake-a small
grille behind the fuel filler cap-looks small, and we picked up a couple
of free horsepower without the faux gas tank cover installed."


"Overall,the project 'Bolt is a lot of fun to ride and flat-out hauls butt
on tight, twisty roads that would have a stocker struggling. It's
steering now allows the XB rider to concentrate more on riding and
less on the distractions the stock bike presented, and the bike is
much less-tiring to ride, as well. It's been one of the more extended
projects the Sport Rider crew has undertaken, but now we're hoping
to hang onto the bike even longer."


Heli Modified
800 859 4642
www.helibars.com

Michelin
800 847 3435
www.michelin-us.com

Orient Express Powersports
(516)546-5232
www.tiforce.com

SatoRacing
(714)779-8325
www.satoracing.com

« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 09:04:47 PM by Busy Little Shop » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2007, 04:53:39 PM »

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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2007, 02:31:50 AM »




Probably because the "air cooled lump" generated too many compromises in the execution of a modern sport bike... the press rated the handling "quirky"...

 


I love the article, and I agree with so much.  This is advice I posted to a potential Bueller in July.

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/286656.html


I didn't even know what counter steering was then.  All I knew was that the Buell needed steering out of the corner.  It isn't the handle bars being forward of the triple clamp that does this, because even the Lightning Long I rode did the same.

The article you posted BLS could have been a new topic, because it is about the Firebolt.  Where I think it is relevant is that the X1125R is almost certainly just as quirky (without the fan).  Buell have done a really good job of fitting a Rotax motor into a Firebolt frame.  The wheel base on the X1125R is 2" longer, but since the rake is the same, the trail is almost the same and the height at the steering head is only a touch higher, my guess is that it's the motor that adds the extra length.

The bars on the X1125R sit more like the Helibars for the Firebolt, and they need to.  Not just for comfort and control, but it is good to get the hands back to the forks so that the rider is pushing less weight over the bike when braking.  Going from 6 to 8 calipers on the front brake may make the change essential.

Since we are taliking about Firebolt quirks, here is another link

http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/buell-xb9r-vs-ducati-900ss-15406.html

I think that this could apply to the X1125R geometry as well.  Even those who think that the handling is strange don't understand why, how or that they are cornering faster than on the other bikes run in this article.

My Firebolt is definitely quirky, but once I'm out of town I forget, and need to be reminded upon reentry.

I can't wait to see the X1125R on a track.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 02:36:27 AM by Bueller » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2007, 11:40:43 AM »


The article you posted BLS could have been a new topic, because it is about the Firebolt.


I shall post it if you think it will help and I think your supportive response should follow so it
doesn't look like I'm bashing Buell... deal???
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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2007, 01:48:03 PM »




I shall post it if you think it will help and I think your supportive response should follow so it
doesn't look like I'm bashing Buell... deal???


You are bashing.  You bash everything except the RC45.

You haven't even ridden an XB....  
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« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2007, 04:10:55 PM »




You are bashing.  You bash everything except the RC45.

You haven't even ridden an XB....  


I've praised Erik's belt drive so much that I've bought his sprockets and belt and plan to convert
Mr.RC45... now let's see you add one of my parts to your Buell...

I haven't forgot my promise to you Rogue... I shall test hop a Buell at the first opportunity...

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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2007, 04:19:15 PM »

What parts?

C'mon Larry.  Aren't you semi-retired?

There is no excuse NOT to go test ride a Buell if you really wanted to.
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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2007, 04:49:29 PM »


What parts?

C'mon Larry.  Aren't you semi-retired?

There is no excuse NOT to go test ride a Buell if you really wanted to.


RC45 parts...

I am retired and you're right I don't have an excuse... I really don't want to test a Buell... that whole lot
of shaking going on at idle would start me re engineering the whole mess and I've got enough projects
competing for the grey matter... but a promise is a promise and I shall honor it...  
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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2007, 04:49:29 PM »


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« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2007, 05:05:07 PM »


I shall post it if you think it will help and I think your supportive response should follow so it
doesn't look like I'm bashing Buell... deal???


Sure. I just reread the article and there's not much I'd disagree with.  Journos get paid to fill space so you may not get many who read it all and there may be no interest and only a few replies because it's all been said before.  If you do decide to go ahead and post it, you could ask those who reply to state if they have ever ridden a Firebolt.  There is no problem in commenting without the ride (I've been commenting on the X1125R  Wink), but a bit of context would be good.
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« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2007, 04:14:25 PM »




RC45 parts...

I am retired and you're right I don't have an excuse... I really don't want to test a Buell...


Well why would I need RC45 parts since I don't have an RC45?

And for God's sake don't test ride it if you don't want to.  That would be silly.  At the same time your criticism of Buell's motor has little credibility since you've never even ridden one.  So how would you REALLY know?
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« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2007, 04:39:51 PM »




Well why would I need RC45 parts since I don't have an RC45?

And for God's sake don't test ride it if you don't want to.  That would be silly.  At the same time your criticism of Buell's motor has little credibility since you've never even ridden one.  So how would you REALLY know?


You don't need an RC45 to appreciate Showa's best forks that come stock on my 27K racer... they are
after all top shelve and are on par with Ohlins R/T forks...

Thanks for the out but I made a promise and I shall keep it...
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« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2007, 09:05:12 PM »


Thanks for the out but I made a promise and I shall keep it...


Don't bother.

You'll hate it.  

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« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2007, 03:30:39 AM »

I like twins, V best, and I like Buells.  Some of the stuff, like oil in the swingarm, just seems strange.  But, this 1125 looks great in my eyes.  

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« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2007, 07:10:38 AM »


I like twins, V best, and I like Buells.  Some of the stuff, like oil in the swingarm, just seems strange.  But, this 1125 looks great in my eyes.  

Oil in the swingarm is just...well, it makes use of space which would otherwise be empty.  I'm sure that once the decision was made to use the empty space inside the box section frame members to store fuel, putting the oil in the box section swingarm was a no-brainer (the oil tank is only at the front, so it doesn't really impact unsprung weight).

BTW, the 1125R doesn't have the oil tank in the swingarm--rather, the oil tank is on the side of the engine case (I think the left side)--it is still a dry sump design.

And BTW, I also believe the 1125R looks just fine (although not as fine as my Firebolt Wink ) and will sell well.  The main source of complaint--the engine--has been replaced.  Looks like Buell bashers have to find something else to bash, and it's the looks (but c'mon, ya wanted liquid cooled, ya gotta put the radiators somewhere--at least they're covered over, not jutting eyesores as in so many other bikes).
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« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2007, 11:39:26 AM »



 Looks like Buell bashers have to find something else to bash, and it's the looks (but c'mon, ya wanted liquid cooled, ya gotta put the radiators somewhere--at least they're covered over, not jutting eyesores as in so many other bikes).


I sure Erik has studied the history of side mounted radiators... they are not only more crash risky but
atheistically risky as well... common complaint among VFR and RC51 owners are side mounted rads... not
only are they an eye sore but not very efficient either... Honda never raced side mounted rads on the
RC51... you were expected to anted up for HRC front rad kit...

Ducati and Britten both have done V2 rads right... they are not only efficient but a beauty to behold...
I sure if Erik races the 1125R it will also sport front rads...

RC51 HRC front rads...
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« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2007, 11:39:26 AM »


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« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2007, 09:08:37 AM »


I sure Erik has studied the history of side mounted radiators... they are not only more crash risky but
atheistically risky as well... common complaint among VFR and RC51 owners are side mounted rads... not
only are they an eye sore but not very efficient either...


My VFR800 has side mounted radiators.

Honestly, I don't see what the problem is.  It has never been an eyesore.  Nor has it been inefficient.  It cools the engine down when it's suppose to so it must work!

The advantage of the side mounted radiator for street motorcycles is that it keeps the motorcycle's frontal profile narrower. And in a V-Twin/V4, this is an advantage over inline fours.  Under racing conditions it may be that side mounted radiators doesn't generate enough heat dissipation to cool a hardworking engine.  But in the street it works just fine.
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« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2007, 12:27:40 PM »

The advantage of side mounted radiators is that they allow the engine to be moved further forward in the chassis.  V type engines benefit more from this than in-line engines because of the large fore-aft spread of the cylinder banks on V-Twins and V-Fours.
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« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2007, 08:14:24 AM »


This is only new for Buell and H-D.....the rest of the free world has had this technology and better since the 70's. Rolleyes

I'd still take a nicely equipped SV1000S and ii'd still have enough left over to get the accessorries I need.


The above is true but then some people are easily satisfied and have low standards lol.  Myself I enjoy the best not the rest.
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« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2007, 05:44:59 AM »

Just from styling point of view I'd prefer that Buell made 2" longer Wheelbase, standard rads - Bike would look narrower, sleeker. As someone mentioned, ' sport tourer' ? And there'd be room fer even more fuel.
not to hijack thread, I think the VFR has a problem with cooling, mentioned in more than 1 mag test. . . granted maybe only when air temps 100 deg or so.
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« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2007, 08:17:14 AM »


I think the VFR has a problem with cooling, mentioned in more than 1 mag test. . . granted maybe only when air temps 100 deg or so.


No it doesn't.  I've ridden mine in the hottest weather going up steep mountain grades at high elevation.  

The VFR has a good temp gauge so it is easy to keep a very close eye on coolant temps.  Mine has never had any issues keeping temps in check.  Nor has it been a recurring issue in any of the VFR Discussion Boards I've been to.
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