Europeans: Harley-crazy???

[SWriverstone]

Here's a question for you Europhiles (Orson, Alex, etc.)...I've often heard that the motorcycling scene in Europe is so much more "enlightened" than here in the U.S., e.g. everyone actually rides for transportation, they have so many more bike choices, dual-sports and similar bikes are far more popular, etc.

I also had the impression that cruisers were virtually non-existent over there...but I just got off the phone with a friend who lives in Germany, and (to my amazement and horror) he said Harleys are BIG in Europe. He says Germans think Harleys are THE bike to ride, and are the coolest, baddest, most awesome bike there is!

IS THIS TRUE??? Are Europeans fast in danger of becoming...*gulp*...like Americans: CRUISER JUNKIES???

Apparently the obsession with Harleys parallels the European (possibly global?) obsession with all things "cowboy" in America: the "open road," the "freedom," etc. (gag, gag)

Has HD's marketing juggernaut finally conquered Europe too? Say it isn't so!

Scott

PS - Apparently the Germans are EATING UP that absurd HD commercial that was floating around here a while ago...the one with all the "stick it to the man" talk that shows a bunch of HD clones riding down some desert highway together...

[bizarro]

Why do you care what Germans ride? They like David Hasselhoff's music and that pretty much tells you all you need to know about their sense of taste.

[keystonejenks]

Why do you care what Germans ride? They like David Hasselhoff's music and that pretty much tells you all you need to know about their sense of taste.

 

[Gaolee]

It will be the end of Harley if the French decide they are cool.  The French probably don't think Buells are weird enough.  I love the French.  They make me look like I have good taste.

[Global Rider]

I also had the impression that cruisers were virtually non-existent over there...but I just got off the phone with a friend who lives in Germany, and (to my amazement and horror) he said Harleys are BIG in Europe. He says Germans think Harleys are THE bike to ride, and are the coolest, baddest, most awesome bike there is!

Scott, the makeup of bikes on the roads there is about even, give or take.

You see all types atop the mountain passes; sport, cruisers, dual purpose and big bore naked bikes that we don't even get here. On the rare side are Honda's ST and GW.

Scott, if your German friends think HD are THE bike...time to pick new friends.   My German friends over there think they are junk, but then they spend their Thursday evenings on the Hockenheim track having fun.

Has HD's marketing juggernaut finally conquered Europe too? Say it isn't so!

It ain't so, not even close. Their market share is peanuts.

[Ant]

There are indeed a lot of cruiser riders both here and on the continent.
However it isn't just HD, there are a lot of the Japanese cruisers around here as well. I think the biggest difference is the attitude, in my experience the cruiser crowd around here just choose to ride a different bike (something some of us forget when the HD bashing starts) and they're always just happy to be on a motorbike. At bike meets it is always a mixture of cruisers and sports bike and dual sports bikes, I'll have to take some photos next time I go to my local. If you nod at a cruiser rider they'll always nod back etc

There doesn't seem to be the same elitist culture in either camps (sports/cruiser), just different choices when it comes to what and how they want to ride
Fair play to 'em!

That being said, I'd say there isn't much danger of us abandoning the Japanese/European brands any time soon in favour of cruisers

[Real Bad Attitude]

It will be the end of Harley if the French decide they are cool.  The French probably don't think Buells are weird enough.  I love the French.  They make me look like I have good taste.

Not sure that ever could of happened  

[Ant]

You see all types atop the mountain passes; sport, cruisers, dual purpose and big bore naked bikes that we don't even get here. On the rare side are Honda's ST and GW.

 

[atypical1]

I also had the impression that cruisers were virtually non-existent over there...but I just got off the phone with a friend who lives in Germany, and (to my amazement and horror) he said Harleys are BIG in Europe. He says Germans think Harleys are THE bike to ride, and are the coolest, baddest, most awesome bike there is!

IS THIS TRUE??? Are Europeans fast in danger of becoming...*gulp*...like Americans: CRUISER JUNKIES???

Methinks you need to stop thinking about and caring about what other folks ride. I mean it just doesn't really matter does it? You seem overly obsessed with what others do and I am trying to figure out why. I mean is work slow or something?  

I can see the attraction of a HD in Europe. Not for around town necessarily but when I wanted to cruise around in the country. It would certainly be a nice departure from the scooter that I would normally ride in town. It would also be something unique in a sea of sameness. In the US it is just the opposite though. Most bikes are cruisers so to be unique you have to ride something different than a cruiser.

Frankly I am at the point where I am thinking about a cruiser if for no other reason than to piss off you guys on "traditional" touring bikes.   Well, maybe I won't go that far but still. Hmmmm...maybe I will rent one for WCRM 4.5


james

[Jake Harsha]

Who cares?  

[Ant]

Who cares?  

Why post if you don't care?

[Jake Harsha]

Why post if you don't care?

It was a rhetorical question intended to voice my displeasure...  Just getting sick of the Harley Obsession that seems to have developed over the last few weeks here on ST.N.



Jake

[UFO]

So what?  You're way too obsessed about it—calm down.  Why do you care?

 

[Ant]

It was a rhetorical question intended to voice my displeasure...  Just getting sick of the Harley Obsession that seems to have developed over the last few weeks here on ST.N.



Jake

It wasn't a dig at you... just an observation. Harleys are motorbikes though last time I checked so they have as much place here as anything else! As far as I could tell this wasn't a "OMG HARLEY SUXORS" thread and more an observation about the differences in biking culture between Europe and the States. Why certain bikes are available in certain markets and whats popular and why etc

[Ant]

So what?  You're way too obsessed about it—calm down.  Why do you care?

 

There is always one  

[Jake Harsha]

#5 Get a life.  

[chornbe]

Has HD's marketing juggernaut finally conquered Europe too? Say it isn't so!

Why do you care?  

[Rogue]

I can't remember which UK mag it was.  Ride?  TWO?

It was a comparison among three:  H-D Roadking vs Honda Goldwing vs BMW R1200RT.

They all chose the H-D Roadking.

I think that many of you people, meaning those here on ST.net, seem to believe that what is said about motorcycles here in ST.net is gospel.  In addition, I'm sure many here will believe that the overall taste and attitudes of bikers here on ST.net is a good representation of most everyone else.  That is so far from the truth.  Riders on ST.net or who subscribe to the ST.net philosphy is but a small portion of the overall motorcycling community in N.A.  Remember that over 60% of the bikers in N.A. ride cruisers and most of that is H-D.  Like it or not, there is a certain mystique to H-D motorcycles you just can't get anywhere else.  It has nothing to do with pirate clothing or chrome.  It has everything to do with a product that contains certain intangible characteristics.  In my opinion. a H-D motorcycle brings forth a raw emotion that I like to call "Freedom".  Freedom is not really an emotion but a noun.  Yet, whenever I see H-D it brings forth those feelings that reminds me of being free in a great land.  It is that freedom to ride anywhere; freedom to roam around a huge continent; freedom to pursue happiness without anyone messing with you.  In a way it represents America--its land, its people, its history.  Some may call it feeling like a cowboy.  Yes!  H-D puts this flavor into their bikes by making their motorcycles feel cool, composed, relaxed, and confident.  That's what H-D motorcycles represent to me.  I think it is what many Europeans feel about H-D's too.  It is in essence, motorcycling in its most raw form being enjoyed in a vast, free land with big skies, big roads, beautiful scenery, with roads that go on forever, alongside your fellow brothers in bikes.  

Of course, other people have twisted that attitude into different niches.  Others hate it for whatever reason.  But I think H-D "owns" that attitude and it is buried deep into the personalities of their motorcycles.  And for those people who desire the same type of freedom, no other motorcycle can claim that attitude because they're NOT H-D nor do they have its history.  

In the meantime, H-D is able to give this attitude to its customers in a modern, well behaved, refined & muscular (notice I didn't use the word fast) motorcycle.  No matter what you all think, today's H-D's are as modern as any.  No.  It doesn't have the performance of an Agusta F4 nor an FJR 1300.  That's because it is never meant to be nor is it a desire of its customers.

[SWriverstone]

My initial concern wasn't anti-Harley...but that the good European balance of ALL types of motorcycles that Ant, Orson and Alex spoke of could very well be destroyed if Harley has their way.

We all know that cruisers in the US make up...what?...something like 80% of the motorcycle market? I don't hate cruisers...but I do hate a monoculture of anything. We all know that HD has a VERY powerful marketing machine (far more powerful than any of the Japanese or European brands). And we all know what happens when that kind of marketing gets exported: the "McDonaldization" of the world. (Just look around and you'll see it in plenty of other industries.)

Some folks trot out NSR#2: So what? (Meaning so what if all of Europe goes Harley-crazy?) Well, in case you've never learned anything about the world, diversity is good! Monocultures are bad. (In food crops as well as motorcycles.)

So that's where my original post came from—nothing against HD, but just a concern that one day we could go to Europe and see nothing but black-leather-clad, tassle-bedecked cruisers everywhere from the Alps to the Via Appia Antica to the Welsh countryside! (Think it won't happen? Nobody thought it would happen in the US either before the first UJM appeared...)

Scott

[SWriverstone]

In my opinion. a H-D motorcycle brings forth a raw emotion that I like to call "Freedom".  Freedom is not really an emotion but a noun.  Yet, whenever I see H-D it brings forth those feelings that reminds me of being free in a great land.  It is that freedom to ride anywhere; freedom to roam around a huge continent; freedom to pursue happiness without anyone messing with you.  In a way it represents America--its land, its people, its history.  Some may call it feeling like a cowboy.  Yes!  

I'm sure you'll disagree with me Rogue...but everything you just said is a result of one thing: MARKETING. That's the entire purpose of marketing: to sell an idea—not a product. Plant an idea in peoples' minds...and they associate it with a product and buy it. It's got nothing to do with the product, and everything to do with HD's marketing people!

People generally hate to admit they've been manipulated...but if Yamaha had started pounding the same "Freedom of the Open Road" message about their bikes decades ago, then you'd be saying the exact same things about Yamaha today!

 

Scott

[VIVID1]

The Polish people in Poland and here in the US love the Harley too    

The Polish parade  

[Gaolee]

Have you ridden a Harley?  The are a blast to ride, nevermind the marketing baggage.  If they weren't so expensive, I would consider owning one when I grow up and am allowed to have lots of running motorcycles.

[atypical1]

My initial concern wasn't anti-Harley...but that the good European balance of ALL types of motorcycles that Ant, Orson and Alex spoke of could very well be destroyed if Harley has their way.

We all know that cruisers in the US make up...what?...something like 80% of the motorcycle market? I don't hate cruisers...but I do hate a monoculture of anything. We all know that HD has a VERY powerful marketing machine (far more powerful than any of the Japanese or European brands). And we all know what happens when that kind of marketing gets exported: the "McDonaldization" of the world. (Just look around and you'll see it in plenty of other industries.)

Some folks trot out NSR#2: So what? (Meaning so what if all of Europe goes Harley-crazy?) Well, in case you've never learned anything about the world, diversity is good! Monocultures are bad. (In food crops as well as motorcycles.)

So that's where my original post came from—nothing against HD, but just a concern that one day we could go to Europe and see nothing but black-leather-clad, tassle-bedecked cruisers everywhere from the Alps to the Via Appia Antica to the Welsh countryside! (Think it won't happen? Nobody thought it would happen in the US either before the first UJM appeared...)



Scott

Scott, there is always going to be some balance. And what if there is not? Are you now going to be the HMFIC of making sure that one brand does not rule supreme?
The purpose of every company is to sell their product. Bottom line. It is not to create diversity. It is not to better mankind. It is to make their product the best seller in their specific market. HD has done an exceptional job in doing that and for some reason that makes you scared. Don't be. Not all of us ride HD (or will) just like not all of us drink Starbucks (remember that thread?  )
If you really cared about diversity wouldn't you be riding one of the smaller brands (Buell, Triumph, etc) and not one from the huge conglomerates (Suzuki, Kawasaki, etc)?

now get out there and ride!
james

[atypical1]

The Polish people in Poland and here in the US love the Harley too    

The Polish parade  

Hey...I see a BMW in the end there.  

james

[photomd]

  In my opinion. a H-D motorcycle brings forth a raw emotion that I like to call "Freedom".  Freedom is not really an emotion but a noun.  Yet, whenever I see H-D it brings forth those feelings that reminds me of being free in a great land.  It is that freedom to ride anywhere; freedom to roam around a huge continent; freedom to pursue happiness without anyone messing with you.

Rogue...I hear you saying you just want freedom. IIRC, that's freedom from adjusting valves, adjusting chains, and freedom from peaky power. Don't be put down by the man! Let freedom ring!  

[bizarro]

#10

[highside]

I cannot find the numbers, but I think it would be very interesting if we could compare the HD markey share in europe with the share of the US market owned by European manufactures. The numbers wouldn't be perfectly compatable since they would include a lot of dirt bikes and HD doesnt make them, but I would still like to see them if anyone can find them.

[Johnny Monsoon]

It will be the end of Harley if the French decide they are cool.  The French probably don't think Buells are weird enough.  I love the French.  They make me look like I have good taste.

They loved it so much they bought the company... Voit.  French!  

[Mac]

They loved it so much they bought the company... Voit.  French!  

The French bowl?

[Orson]

I just got off the phone with a friend who lives in Germany, and (to my amazement and horror) he said Harleys are BIG in Europe. He says Germans think Harleys are THE bike to ride, and are the coolest, baddest, most awesome bike there is!

IS THIS TRUE??? Are Europeans fast in danger of becoming...*gulp*...like Americans: CRUISER JUNKIES???

In Norway, Harleys are a BIG thing. If I had to make a guess, I'd say the percentage of cruisers in Norway approaches 50%. With their ridiculous speed limits and outrageous speeding fines, I guess it makes sense to slow down.

As for the rest of Europe, I'd reckon cruisers are on the rise. Most notably in Germany & Switzerland. When I first went to Europe back in the 1980s, sport bikes dominated. My guess would be that in northern Europe, cruisers might be around the 20% level. In southern Europe, naked bikes seem predominate.

We like to bash the French but one thing I will say about them, they love their bikes. Almost every French bike you see above 600cc has a bunch of aftermarket goodies and maybe a custom paint job.  

[Russellr.1]

This is wonderful news. This means that more of them will go over the pond which will hopefully limit availability here. Bottom line is maybe I will not have to listen to something that sounds like a tractor with a broken exhaust manifold nearly as much. Yes sir, this is very exciting.

[swimmer]

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[TheRedOnesAreFaster]

I thought Europeans hated overweight, loud, obnoxious Americans.

[Wilbur]

Press release from April 19.

Looks like as of year ending March 31 they had sold 53,426 out of 108,337 motorcycles in the U.S. (49%) and 8,686 out of 39,785 (over 650cc) in Europe (22%) (actually a little less as total sales in Europe end in Feb, not March).

What's funny is the net revenue. In a 3 month period they make over 4X as much selling "general merchandise" as selling Buells and 9X as much selling parts and accessories. Buell sales are almost a rounding error for them.

For those keeping count, sales of motorcycles are down but sales of parts and general merchandise is up.


                   Retail Sales of Harley-Davidson Motorcycles
                             Year to Date (March 31)

                                                      2007              2006

    United States                                   53,426            56,805
    Europe*                                          8,686             6,910
    Japan                                            2,292             2,482
    Canada                                           2,047             1,796
    All other markets                                4,082             3,497

    Total Retail Sales of Harley-Davidson
     Motorcycles                                    70,533            71,490

    Data Source (subject to update)
    Data source for all 2006 and 2007 retail sales figures shown above is
    sales warranty and registration information provided by Harley-
    Davidson dealers and compiled by the Company.  The Company must rely on
    information that its dealers supply concerning retail sales, and this
    information is subject to revision.

    Only Harley-Davidson(R) motorcycles are included in the Harley-Davidson
    Motorcycle Sales data.

    *Data for Europe include Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France,
    Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden,
    Switzerland, and the United Kingdom





                        Heavyweight (651+ cc) Market Data
                          Data Through Month Indicated

                                                              2007     2006

    United States (March)                                  108,337  109,141
    Europe* (February)                                      39,785   34,742

    Data Source
    United States: Motorcycle Industry Council
    Europe: Giral S.A.

    *Europe data includes Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France,
    Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden,
    Switzerland, and the United Kingdom.  Industry retail motorcycle
    registration data is derived from information provided by Giral S.A., an
    independent agency.  Data for 2006 has been adjusted to include
    competitor motorcycles that had previously not been included by the
    Company.  The previously reported amount for 2006 was 33,278.



                          Net Revenue and Motorcycle
                                Shipment Data

                                           (Unaudited) (Unaudited)
                                             Three months ended
                                             April 1,   March 26,
                                               2007        2006
    NET REVENUE (in thousands)
    Harley-Davidson(R) motorcycles          $891,518  $1,008,542
    Buell(R) motorcycles                      21,655      24,056
    Parts & Accessories                      188,235     182,949
    General Merchandise                       76,112      68,551
    Other                                      1,355         992
                                          $1,178,875  $1,285,090

[Rogue]

I'm sure you'll disagree with me Rogue...but everything you just said is a result of one thing: MARKETING. That's the entire purpose of marketing: to sell an idea—not a product. Plant an idea in peoples' minds...and they associate it with a product and buy it. It's got nothing to do with the product, and everything to do with HD's marketing people!
Scott

Sure.  That's true.

You can also say the same exact things with every other brand of motorcycle, car, clothes, gadgets, etc.  

In any case, when I was a kid, I saw mostly H-D motorcycles.  Whenever I watched a movie with motorcycles in it, they were H-D motorcycles.  Think of how many movies you remember with bikes....most of them had H-D's in it.  So that name, sound, and the riders portrayed with the bikes has left me with an impression.  I remember seeing Easy Rider when I was a kid.  I loved it!  I wanted to be like that:  Free to do and go anywhere with just the wind in my face and a cool motorcycle.  A Cruiser if you may.  I didn't know any other motorcycle existed!  

I wouldn't call that marketing.  I don't remember ever seeing a H-D ad back then.  But I do remember the images of riders riding their H-D Sportsters and choppers across the Western US in wide open country.  I'm sure that people older than me remember even more about the biker gangs of the 60's and 70's.  We grew up with this stuff!  

So yeah.  Some marketing have something to do with it.  But our lifelong experiences will also dictate what we like.  Marketing just reinforces it.  

BTW, I don't own a H-D cruiser.  I do own a H-D sportbike (Buell).  Before that, I owned nothing but Japanese bikes.  So all that marketing and childhood impressions didn't really make me get a H-D did it?    Maybe if I lived in Florida or Nebraska or Iowa, I would own a H-D because that bike most likely suits the terrain.  Because I live in California where twisty roads abound, I want a motorcycle that can handle.  Why Buell?  Because I like its features.  Didn't really buy into the Buell is better.  I just wanted a small, lightweight bike with a big bore motor with lots of torque, yet remain simple to own and maintain.  Buell just happened to build one that suited me.  So there's that marketing again, not doing its job!  

[TheRedOnesAreFaster]

Motorcycles in movies is definitely marketing.  The makers pay out the wazoo to get their stuff placed -especially in a high-profile spot (like the R1200 cruiser in the Bond flick)- in movies and TV.

[highside]

Motorcycles in movies is definitely marketing.  The makers pay out the wazoo to get their stuff placed -especially in a high-profile spot (like the R1200 cruiser in the Bond flick)- in movies and TV.

Yes, but the guy who writes the story says they were riding a motorcycle. The marketing comes up when they have to decide which real-world motorcycle to use, but the presence of them has a lot more to do with the story telling and the culture that creates the story. I *seriously* doubt that HD gave any money to the guys that made Easy Rider, what were they supposed to do? Use BSAs to tell the great American motorcycle story? That was a story in which Harley Davidson had a LEGITIMATE part. Like it or not HD does have a legitimate role in American history at large, even more so in the history of the motorcycle culture of which we are a part. That isn't marketing, thats just how it is.

[bluedogok]

If you asked the general public, most people think Brando rode a Harley in The Wild Ones when it was actually a Triumph.

The funny think about Europeans and cruisers is Formula 1 drivers Michael Schumacher and Jarno Trulli own a good number of them, they would ride them from the Montreal to Indy race. In 2005 ALMS AudiSport LMP1 drivers JJ Lehto and Frank Biela traveled from a Lime Rock race to the Sonoma race on them and loved it Fourtitude.com - Bike Week Part V: J.J. Lehto, Choppers and Cross-Country Cruising with Frank Biela). Frank Biela made another trip last year from Salt Lake to Portland, this time with his other AudiSport teammates Emanuele Pirro, Allan McNish and Dindo Capello (Fourtitude.com - Audi Sport Drivers Make Like 'Easy Rider' - Salt Lake City to Portland).


I thought this was a pretty interesting story about a change of rides: Visordown.com - A day with a Fat Boy after years with a Boxer

[Ralf]

Ahhh... just saw this thread as I was out on my Fat Boy cruising to the mall to check out David Hasselhoff's new CD and grab an XXL BigMac. Now if I could just find a shop in Munich that sells Pabst Blue Ribbon beer I'd be set  

[eurofan]

I'm portuguese.

I know very well what southern europeans ride. Northern europeans i'm not so familiar with.

And in Portugal, Spain, France and Italy HDs and cruisers in general are not big. In fact they are a small niche.

In this countries you'll find lots of 600/750cc standards, sports bikes, and adventure bikes in this order. Cruisers are rare.

Portugal is atypical even for european standards because in here the japanese 600 and 1000cc japanese sportsbikes are everywhere. It's rare to see anything that isn't a CBR or GSX-R. Anything that is not japanese is very rare to see. BMWs and not much else.

In Spain, France and Italy the most common bikes are SV650, Kawa 650r (ER-6 in here), Honda 599 (Hornet over here). But you see lots of sport bikes and adventure bikes (BMW R1200GS, Honda Varadero, V-Strom).

Another big difference between Portugal and other south european countries is that scooters in big cities like Barcelona, Madrid, paris or Rome are like gamblers in Las Vegas. Thousand of therm, like angry bees. Here no. you only see 600 and 1000 japanese RRs  

And, unlike Portugal, is not difficult to see a Ducati, Aprilia or Triumph in this countries too. Buells are an easy sight in the south of France for example.

HDs are difficult to spot. They are few and, i guess, don't get out much. In Portugal the majority of HDs are Sportsters.

I admit owning a HD (a Road King and only a Road King only when i make 50 years old). In europe we have to ride. The roads have much more cars and bends than what i think is the norm in the USA.

I have been in Florida (and NYC but that do not count) and I could see myself owning a HD (not a HD, a  Road King  ) over there. They drive slowly, there are no bends, you can cruise. In Portugal you don't cruise, you ride, like it or not.

 

[olderigetfasteriam]

How does one say "potato, potato, potato" in French?

[Zerosum]

PS - Apparently the Germans are EATING UP that absurd HD commercial that was floating around here a while ago...the one with all the "stick it to the man" talk that shows a bunch of HD clones riding down some desert highway together...

That's because, deep down, they all just want to be Nazis.    They all want to be part of a group with some mighty purpose, even if it's actually based on bullshit.

[Cpl Punishment]

Possibly. However:

HD gives a different ride, a slower perspective, a differnet way of taking a corner, a different bike.

Don't knock difference.

[atypical1]

Possibly. However:

HD gives a different ride, a slower perspective, a differnet way of taking a corner, a different bike.

Don't knock difference.

Please don't use reason in our HD bashing threads. Continuing to do so will get you banned.

That is all.

james

 

[keystonejenks]

This is wonderful news. This means that more of them will go over the pond which will hopefully limit availability here. Bottom line is maybe I will not have to listen to something that sounds like a tractor with a broken exhaust manifold nearly as much. Yes sir, this is very exciting.

Man, you could be onto something. I better go buy some stock in the company ASAP.

[Cpl Punishment]

Please don't use reason in our HD bashing threads. Continuing to do so will get you banned.

That is all.

james

 

Honda, gimme a Hoinda,cx\afd;vk bfpgcistpo

[TheRedOnesAreFaster]

How does one say "potato, potato, potato" in French?

pomme de terre, pomme de terre, pomme de terre.  

[eurofan]

pomme de terre, pomme de terre, pomme de terre.  

which means

apple from soil, apple from soil, apple from soil  

Harleys are slow but Harleys have character.

Japanese bikes are fast but have no character

European bikes are fast and have character  

[SWriverstone]

Uh-oh Eurofan—you mentioned "character!" (We had a whole thread all about how to define character.) But great comments on the scene in Portugal and southern Europe!  

The thing that I find completely undermines the Harley bullsh*t is this: you can do *anything* on *any* other motorcycle that you can do on a Harley (except maybe lean back at a 45-degree angle while riding). I mean, you can ride other bikes slow, you can take corners upright, you can stop at bars at drink, and you can even put leather bags and tassles on a GSX-R.

It's just absurd to me that there's a notion that to do these things above *requires* a Harley. (Just like it's equally absurd that people think just because you ride a GSX-R, you've got to break the law and ride like a squid!)

The fact is that most of the HD community doesn't even *remotely* think independently...and neither does much of the rest of the motorcycling community. (Okay, I'll include myself in that statement as well, to stem the inevitable "What makes YOU so high-and-mighty?" comments... )

Scott

[bizarro]

High and mighty? No, not really. Just kinda retarded at this point. Harley guys are right, you either get it or you don't. You don't, and that's okay. As for the community, name one community, of any kind, that doesn't have brain-dead sheeple members, assholes, what-have-you.

[ray6576]

High and mighty? No, not really. Just kinda retarded at this point. Harley guys are right, you either get it or you don't. You don't, and that's okay. As for the community, name one community, of any kind, that doesn't have brain-dead sheeple members, assholes, what-have-you.