So have people ALREADY lost interest in MotoGP?? **SPOLILER ALERT**

[Crankitup]

I thought I'd look in Pit Row for a thread where I could post my thoughts about the Aussie 1,2 at San Marino & for the first time I find nix. Absolutely bloody nothing on the San Marino GP.

Oh well. Congrats to Stoner & Vermeulen anyways.  Just need the new boy Westy to start firing now & we could see an Aussie 1,2,3 before the end of the season.

   

[DogBoy]

Would you mind putting the word **SPOILER** in your thread title when discussing race results?



We have just finished a three-day holiday weekend in the US (and Canada, IIRC) so many people may not have been home to watch the races. Congratulations to Stoner, Vermuelen and Hopkins.

[Jason F.]

And to answer your question yes I have lost some interest in it. I like to see good tight racing and tight points battles. When you have single digit points counts separating the top two riders in AMA Superbike I would rather watch that. I still watch the MotoGp stuff but only because I record it on the DVR and fast forward through the crap and the commercials.

[Jeff N]

Watched the recording of all the weekend's racing last night after work.

Big up to Stoner. He's crashed his way up the totem pole from 125s and now has learned not to crash at all. Another proof to the old axiom that a fast racer can learn not to crash, etc. It's also great to see Ducati on top.

Poor Pedrobot. Now he knows what it feels like. It's a shame Hayden got caught up in it.   He seems to be regaining some form and he's good to go for 2008.

Melandri is just plain crazy. Did you see his Saturday crash?

Running the Misano course backwards isn't very interesting. I prefer the old way, like on my World Superbike 2000 PC game.

[Crankitup]

Would you mind putting the word **SPOILER** in your thread title when discussing race results?



We have just finished a three-day holiday weekend in the US (and Canada, IIRC) so many people may not have been home to watch the races. Congratulations to Stoner, Vermuelen and Hopkins.

Sorry. I thought enough days had elapsed so that it wouldn't be a concern. Fixed now.

Didn't know about the holiday situation as I'm in Oz.
 

[Crankitup]

....

Melandri is just plain crazy. Did you see his Saturday crash?

Running the Misano course backwards isn't very interesting. I prefer the old way, like on my World Superbike 2000 PC game.

Yep - Melandri - unbelievable.

I agree with your comment on the course direction too. I like anti-clockwise much better.

[Jules]

In my wildest dreams I would not have predicted that any rider would have an 85 point lead with 5 races o go!

Stoner still rode really hard even though Rossi and Pedrosa were out - I admire that in a racer.

[badger]

In some odd way, this 800cc configuration works for stoner.  The Ducati/Bridgestone combo is clearly the superior bike (well duh!) but Stoner is riding the hell out of it.  I think there are gonna be a lot of extra practice days over at Honda and Yamaha at the end of the season.

[Crankitup]

In some odd way, this 800cc configuration works for stoner.  The Ducati/Bridgestone combo is clearly the superior bike (well duh!) but Stoner is riding the hell out of it.  I think there are gonna be a lot of extra practice days over at Honda and Yamaha at the end of the season.

Bridgestone, Yes. I'm not sure how much superior the Ducati is though, when the other Ducati rider regularly gets spanked by riders riding for other manufacturers.

[strider]

What were Yamaha thinking?  Racing with the pneumatic valved engine when Rossi still had a chance at the title?  

It's a shame the suicidal Frog ruined Pedrosa and Hayden's race, it may have been a lot closer.

Of course, congrats to the Ozzies - although the battle between Westy and Elias was one of the few entertaining segments.  To answer the title question though, I don't think any Australians would have lost interest.  

Seems like Bridgestone is the only tyre manufacturer to do their homework - particularly with Michelin losing the advantage with the new tyre rules.  

[phoenix]

I haven't heard yet - what mechanical problem did Rossi suffer?


oh, and it has become a little boring. Any race where one or two guys run away with the lead can be boring. But when he's doing it race after race, almost makes me wonder how they are cheating and getting away with it.

Motocross racing was reflecting this sort of "boredom" for a few years when it was Ricky Carmichael versus the rest of the field, and RC usually won. Now James Stewart has kinda taken over the thrown, as long as he can stop injuring himself from going 110% on every lap of every heat. Maybe some guys from the lower classes will make for more competition next season. Even so, it seems like 85% of the field could be holding their own separate race as the leaders get sooooooo far ahead.

[Crankitup]

What were Yamaha thinking?  Racing with the pneumatic valved engine when Rossi still had a chance at the title?  

It seems like they know what went wrong now and they're of the opinion that it was a problem that could quite easily have cropped up with the old engine. They are still going to use it in the next race.

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~6~id~153969.htm

[Crankitup]

I haven't heard yet - what mechanical problem did Rossi suffer?

It LOOKED like a seized engine, but they haven't elaborated yet.

[Tyrroneous]

What were Yamaha thinking?  Racing with the pneumatic valved engine when Rossi still had a chance at the title?  

Sometimes ya gotta die trying.  I believe that's what Rossi and Burgess were thinking.  Rossi knew that if he didn't get a win at Misano that the championship was pretty well over.  So why not go for broke?


Maybe they should just shorten MotoGP races to 10 laps.  At least it would keep them interesting.  

[Aero]

I was also amazed that there was nothing posted about the MotoGP for a couple of days, but then I realised that a lot of people were away over the weekend.

I'm so impressed with Stoner and Ducati, it seems to be the perfect combination at the moment. I love to think of all the megabuck Japanese companies trying so hard and still failing to beat relatively tiny Ducati, a real David and Goliath story.

Pity that Rossi was out so early, I'm sure the racing would have been closer with him still on the track. I'm sure Yamaha will find some more speed with the pneumatic valve engine which allows the engineers to have more radical valve timing and greater valve control like the Ducati's desmodromic system does.

Don't know if Honda has anything new up their sleeve for 2008? They will need something if they want to start winning again, especially with Suzuki and Kawasaki getting more competitive all the time.

[Mr Sunshine]

Well my cable company (comcrap) switched the software on the DVR to this crappy TV Guide software.  It blew up all of my subscriptions and there is no way now to say "record all motorcycle racing" so the GP wasn't recorded.

 


So I'm watching it off of motogp.com right now.

[strider]

Maybe they should just shorten MotoGP races to 10 laps.  At least it would keep them interesting.  

MotoGP is also a test of endurance - bike, tyres and rider, the competence of the crew behind the scenes and also the design engineers back in the factory.  Sometimes the best ideas just don't work as per the design.

If you like short races, come over to Australia and watch the domestic series.   Great riders, well prepared machines but nowhere near as interesting as MotoGP, World Supers or BSB.


 

[hig4s]

I haven't heard yet - what mechanical problem did Rossi suffer?


oh, and it has become a little boring. Any race where one or two guys run away with the lead can be boring. But when he's doing it race after race, almost makes me wonder how they are cheating and getting away with it.

Motocross racing was reflecting this sort of "boredom" for a few years when it was Ricky Carmichael versus the rest of the field, and RC usually won. Now James Stewart has kinda taken over the thrown, as long as he can stop injuring himself from going 110% on every lap of every heat. Maybe some guys from the lower classes will make for more competition next season. Even so, it seems like 85% of the field could be holding their own separate race as the leaders get sooooooo far ahead.

I take it you have not been paying attention to MX lately?  Stewart is hurt, out for the season. Not only will he not win the outdoor championship, he will finish behind Carmichael who is only racing part time.

Back on Subject, I watch MotoGP when ever I can. But when I can't I prefer not to know hoping I can see a re-run..

Seems like some of the fastest guys are having some real bad luck this year.  Still Stoner looks solid, could still be the leader even without the others having bad luck.

[R Doug]

I for one and ticked!  For the first time ever, my Tivo did not pick up the race.  I had to get the highlights on the "Speed Report."  ARGH!  

[pearsonm]

I hope this season will inspire Rossi to come roaring back in '08.

I can't help but wonder if the 800's will reduce the number of competitive engine formats. With the 990's, any configuration made way too much power so the name of the game was power management. This season, the inline fours just aren't competitive and it appears to be due to a lack of power. It will be interesting to see what Yamaha (and Kawasaki?) do going forward.

[highside]

What were Yamaha thinking?  Racing with the pneumatic valved engine when Rossi still had a chance at the title?  

My understanding is that Valentino was a part of that decision making process and felt that it was a risk that worth taking for a shot at Stoner. Taking some risks was the only way that Rossi was going to win the title from that far back. The dice came up short this time, but it takes some guts to throw them when you have to. I think the Yamaha is a falt inferior bike this year and they are having to do things like this in an effort to save face.

As far as losing interest I am finding my interest waning a little bit as well. This happens when one rider just dominates the unholy hell out of the field. I also think the 800cc bikes are just not as interesting as the 996 or 500 bikes. The whole draw of Moto GP has always been about harnessing massive surpluses of power and squirly bikes. These new bikes are a lot like watching 250's only a little faster. There is nothing wrong with that, and I actually like the 250cc races, but that isn't what I am watching the big bikes for.

[1KPerDay]

Here are my thoughts on the misano race:




FRIGGIN DEPUNIET!@#$!@$!@@#$!@#!!@#$@!!!!!!

[highside]

Here are my thoughts on the misano race:




FRIGGIN DEPUNIET!@#$!@$!@@#$!@#!!@#$@!!!!!!

One of the Eurosport commentators made an amusing comment during a replay of that incident. They showed Pedrobot shaking his fist in an uncommon display of emotion and then said something along the lines of "and that's how Hayden felt in Estoril".

[LicketySplat]

One of the Eurosport commentators made an amusing comment during a replay of that incident. They showed Pedrobot shaking his fist in an uncommon display of emotion and then said something along the lines of "and that's how Hayden felt in Estoril".

Ya, that comment was cute, but... not hardly. Pedrobot wasn't *realistically* in contention for the championship... and he wasn't taken out by his teammate after a whole season of getting no support from their mutual employer.

I can't bring myself to be interested in Formula Pirelli, which is the only interesting "premier class" going on right now. AMA SS is about it as far as the racing goes. But the golden convergence of Stoner, Ducati and Bridgestone is a beautiful thing to watch.

[highside]

Yeah, I do enjoy the poetry in motion that is the perfectly sorted team of Stoner, Ducati, and Bridgestone as well. It just isn't all that interesting to watch.

Anyone else really impressed with how well the Suzukis are starting to run? I think that may prove to be an interesting development next season.

[Orson]

Anyone else really impressed with how well the Suzukis are starting to run? I think that may prove to be an interesting development next season.

What impressed me was the qualifying times:

1. Casey Stoner AUS Ducati Marlboro Team (B) 1min 33.918 secs
2. Valentino Rossi ITA Fiat Yamaha Team (M) 1min 34.094 secs
3. Nicky Hayden USA Repsol Honda Team (M) 1min 34.469 secs
4. Randy de Puniet FRA Kawasaki Racing Team (B) 1min 34.506 secs
5. John Hopkins USA Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (B) 1min 34.536 secs

5 different brands in the top 5 and all within a half second or so.  

I know qualifying doesn't tell the whole story but still, it's nice to see.

[DogBoy]

IMO, its disappointing to see qualifying not relate to the race. Last season, MotoGP had very close qualifying and good racing. This season we have very restricted fuel allotment for the races. I've read that the state of engine tune for that qualifying lap is probably much different than race trim. Just like the one-lap-at-speed qualifying tires that don't relate to how the race tires will perform.

I'm still enjoying the races and seeing Stoner just beating on the bike so hard everywhere.

[highside]

Do you guys think that going back to the old tire rules would have made this season more competitive?

[Aaron]

I'm still surprised at how awful the Yamaha is. The bike is obviously down on power compared to at least half of the field and the Michelin situation definitely isn't helping. They have arguably the best rider of all time, and they can't do anything. On top of it all, the motor shits the bed last weekend. I just don't understand how they could have missed the mark so badly. Rossi (oh, and Edwards) has to be pissed about getting pulled on every straight.

It boggles the mind. Yamaha has to know at least as much about making big power as Ducati does. Michelin knows just as much about tires as Bridgestone. What have these guys been up to?

[DogBoy]

Do you guys think that going back to the old tire rules would have made this season more competitive?

Which old rules? The displacement rules or the tire rules or the fuel allotment rules? I think all three would have to remain unchanged.

[Jeff N]

Which old rules? The displacement rules or the tire rules or the fuel allotment rules? I think all three would have to remain unchanged.

For this year the teams are limited to how many tires (tyres) they can use for the entire weekend. It's getting like NASCAR Busch or F1 racing. They're limited to something like 4 fronts, 6 rears, and maybe 2 to 3 qualifying sets. Ya, I pulled those numbers outta my ass, but I'm pretty sure I'm close.

[highside]

For this year the teams are limited to how many tires (tyres) they can use for the entire weekend. It's getting like NASCAR Busch or F1 racing. They're limited to something like 4 fronts, 6 rears, and maybe 2 to 3 qualifying sets. Ya, I pulled those numbers outta my ass, but I'm pretty sure I'm close.

I beieve it is a fixed number of front and rear tires of any composition to total 31 tires, I can't remember how many of each though. I think that rain tires are not counted in this total. I suspect that these rules are a big reason why there is such a disparity between Michelin and Bridgestone right now. They had to make some real guesses and expand the conditions under which each tire will perform. Bridgestone appears to have made the right guesses, and now Michelin is stuck catching up.

[Jeff N]

OK, Highside. I'll accept your numbers. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I do know that the tire limitations have been extremely frustrating for the Michelin shod teams.

Apparently, Michelin would make hundreds, if not thousands, of tires in the week before a race, the compounds of which were based upon expected weather conditions. Then, when practice started, if a certain tire (tyre) didn't work, they'd go to the truck and pick another one out of a seemingly endless variety to try out. I guess that ability rubbed some people the wrong way somehow.

[DogBoy]

I beieve it is a fixed number of front and rear tires of any composition to total 31 tires, I can't remember how many of each though.

14 fronts. 17 rears.

[bogthing]

Certainly not!, now that the Rossi show has been relegated to back page news, I've found a renewed interest in the series. Someone else winning for a change?, soitanly!

[LicketySplat]

OK, Highside. I'll accept your numbers. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I do know that the tire limitations have been extremely frustrating for the Michelin shod teams.

Apparently, Michelin would make hundreds, if not thousands, of tires in the week before a race, the compounds of which were based upon expected weather conditions. Then, when practice started, if a certain tire (tyre) didn't work, they'd go to the truck and pick another one out of a seemingly endless variety to try out. I guess that ability rubbed some people the wrong way somehow.

No, it was the other way around. The tire manufacturers are still free to bring as many tires as they want to the track - so they can be prepared for a variety of weather conditions - but the riders and teams have to make their selection before the rubber hits the pavement.

In the past, Michelin would come to the track with a certain variety, but would then *make* tires specific to the conditions after Friday practice, and courier them to the European racetracks. Depending on Saturday's results, they might make even more tires Saturday night. Bridgestone's location in Japan made this impossible. The new rules simply make the location of the factory irrelevant. The results this year show how complacent Michelin had got about anticipating what conditions *might* be. They've apparently been placing all their stock in their ability to react. Bridgestone either is being more proactive, or simply makes tires that will perform under a broader range of conditions.

[hobbes]

No, it was the other way around. The tire manufacturers are still free to bring as many tires as they want to the track - so they can be prepared for a variety of weather conditions - but the riders and teams have to make their selection before the rubber hits the pavement.

In the past, Michelin would come to the track with a certain variety, but would then *make* tires specific to the conditions after Friday practice, and courier them to the European racetracks. Depending on Saturday's results, they might make even more tires Saturday night. Bridgestone's location in Japan made this impossible. The new rules simply make the location of the factory irrelevant. The results this year show how complacent Michelin had got about anticipating what conditions *might* be. They've apparently been placing all their stock in their ability to react. Bridgestone either is being more proactive, or simply makes tires that will perform under a broader range of conditions.

Correct. The Michelin one-off advantage has been eliminated, which would make for better racing if Michelin didn't mis the mark this year with their forward-planning. Bridgestone has turned into the better tire manufacturer, while Michelin excels at making one-offs.

I'd like to see a spec tire. Look at what it's done for WSBK.

[atypical1]

Funny that last year Bridgestone was pretty much absent from the podium and this year they have lost track of how many races they have won... .

I am truly amazed at the contrast between getting it all right (bike, tires, rider) and getting it all wrong. The point about Yamaha knowing about putting power down as well as Ducati is a valid one. Part of it comes down to fueling and making a decision where to run lean and where to optimize power. In the case of Ducati they picked right. I would imagine next season should be much tighter.

That being said, Stoner is absolutely amazing and always impresses the hell out of me. Looks like the old adage about teaching a fast rider not to crash held true in this case.

james

[Crankitup]

Yeah, I do enjoy the poetry in motion that is the perfectly sorted team of Stoner, Ducati, and Bridgestone as well. It just isn't all that interesting to watch.

Anyone else really impressed with how well the Suzukis are starting to run? I think that may prove to be an interesting development next season.

Certainly. About time they did something.

[maddjack]

Lost intrest?? no way .I think its intresting that Ducati has gotten the 800's so right and Honda so wrong (at first) Yamaha seems to a a bit of a curse over it another mechanical dnf.bridgestone seems to have the high ground at most tracks,a surprise IMHO.Stoner is riding well ,thinking championship,if his machine doesn't break its a hard thing to beat.Hayden is cursed with bad luck this year,it seems he has come to terms(Read they finally gave him a decent bike to ride) with the Honda.Rossi is Rossi,I think two years off the number one will set hi  ablaze next year.Time will tell and BTW kids ,its not over till its over , hopefully ,nothing bad will befall mr Stoner as I am A fan.

[Tyrroneous]

MotoGP is also a test of endurance - bike, tyres and rider, the competence of the crew behind the scenes and also the design engineers back in the factory.  Sometimes the best ideas just don't work as per the design.

If you like short races, come over to Australia and watch the domestic series.   Great riders, well prepared machines but nowhere near as interesting as MotoGP, World Supers or BSB.


  

Well, I was being a bit sarcastic when I suggested the 10 lap race.  I too enjoy the full length races. What I was alluding to was the fact that lately, by lap 10, Stoner has completely demoralized everybody else.  Usually by that point 2nd and 3rd places have also been decided and the only racing takes place further down the order.    

[Mr Sunshine]

I'd like to see a spec tire. Look at what it's done for WSBK.

A spec tire in a prototype racing class is the worst idea I've ever heard.

MotoGP isn't about racing...it is about the technology.

[DogBoy]

A spec tire in a prototype racing class is the worst idea I've ever heard.

MotoGP isn't about racing...it is about the technology.

No. MotoGP is about selling advertising. Boring racing means no one is watching.

[Stray Cat]

Well my cable company (comcrap) switched the software on the DVR to this crappy TV Guide software.  It blew up all of my subscriptions and there is no way now to say "record all motorcycle racing" so the GP wasn't recorded.

 


So I'm watching it off of motogp.com right now.

Yeah I didn't even see it on the guide.  
However, I knew it would be next to impossible to catch Stoner, and the Michelin tires are crap, so it was pretty much over two races ago. Michelin should just get out of top notch motorsports. They suck.

[highside]

A spec tire in a prototype racing class is the worst idea I've ever heard.

MotoGP isn't about racing...it is about the technology.

+1

The entire POINT of Moto GP is to showcase the absolute best that can be achieved with an very limited set of rules. A big part of the series is pitting large manufactures against one another. Going with a spec *anything* is detrimental to that end. This is why I don't really like the new tire rules myself.

[Jeff N]

No, it was the other way around. The tire manufacturers are still free to bring as many tires as they want to the track - so they can be prepared for a variety of weather conditions - but the riders and teams have to make their selection before the rubber hits the pavement.

  You've explained it so much better than I could.  

[hobbes]

A spec tire in a prototype racing class is the worst idea I've ever heard.

MotoGP isn't about racing...it is about the technology.

No no. MotoGP is about MOTORCYCLE technology. When tires have become such a big part that the technology of the motorycles essentially doesn't matter, then it's time for a spec tire rule.

Everyone on the same tire...then let the factories duke it out on BIKE technology. That makes for good racing.

[Mr Sunshine]

No no. MotoGP is about MOTORCYCLE technology. When tires have become such a big part that the technology of the motorycles essentially doesn't matter, then it's time for a spec tire rule.

Everyone on the same tire...then let the factories duke it out on BIKE technology. That makes for good racing.

Tires are just as much of the equation as the frame.  In fact they are completely linked as a tires different characterists will determine things like how ridged the frame should be.

*everything* is interrelated.

[hobbes]

Tires are just as much of the equation as the frame.  In fact they are completely linked as a tires different characterists will determine things like how ridged the frame should be.

*everything* is interrelated.

Of course, but right now we're watching the "Bridgestone Cup" more than MotoGP. The racing sucks. It's becoming F1-like. It's happened for years, but last few years it was Michelin leading the way. Let the motorcycle manufacturers duke it out with technology on spec tires. It will make for great racing and still keep the "elite" technology aspect of it.

[atypical1]

The reason that it is the Bridgestone cup is because they made the right gamble. For me that is one of the exiting things about GP. Last year it was the Michelin cup and Bridgestone was nowhere to be found.

If you have spec tires then you will get to the point where every bike is also the same (think NASCAR) and then it will lose some of its magic. MS was right in saying that everything is interrelated. Put those same Michelin tires on the Ducati and it might not be winning the way that it is. That is technology aspect of the race. The tires are tailor made for the bike and the two manufactures work hand in hand in developing the technology.

Let's not forget that you have an amazing rider on an amazing bike. Casey is getting good breaks and is riding his ass off. Rossi has gotten some bad breaks (tires included in that) but it is all racing.

james

[maddjack]

Screw spec tires in GP ,we all benefit from the tricle down that is haping from GP ,they test the cutting edge there and find out what works and what doesn't,sooner or later it works its way to us on the street in some form if its viable

[DogBoy]

There is very little trickle down from racing beyond bling. Composites come from aerospace and traction technology mostly comes from the automotive world. MotoGP tire tech doesn't help nearly as much as what the companies learn from SuperSport racing.

[hobbes]

The reason that it is the Bridgestone cup is because they made the right gamble. For me that is one of the exiting things about GP. Last year it was the Michelin cup and Bridgestone was nowhere to be found.

If you have spec tires then you will get to the point where every bike is also the same (think NASCAR) and then it will lose some of its magic. MS was right in saying that everything is interrelated. Put those same Michelin tires on the Ducati and it might not be winning the way that it is. That is technology aspect of the race. The tires are tailor made for the bike and the two manufactures work hand in hand in developing the technology.

Let's not forget that you have an amazing rider on an amazing bike. Casey is getting good breaks and is riding his ass off. Rossi has gotten some bad breaks (tires included in that) but it is all racing.

james

That NASCAR example is a poor one, let's keep it on two wheels. A better would be WSBK, look at the results there. Almost all manufacturers are still in the championship race at this point. That's good racing. Imagine getting to a race weekend with your priceless bike technology and team, only to have the entire weekend foiled because your tire manufacturer isn't as well prepared as the next one. On one hand, hey it's racing. On the other...there are rules and standards on engine displacement, weight, fuel consumption, etc... No reason tires couldn't be in there as well. All it would do is ADD to the excitement of the sport by eliminating the biggest NON-motorcycle variable around at the moment.

Having a spec tire doesn't make the entire class a spec class. It just gives everyone the same step to start on. Let the manufacturers take it from there.

[atypical1]

 A better would be WSBK, look at the results there. Almost all manufacturers are still in the championship race at this point. That's good racing. Imagine getting to a race weekend with your priceless bike technology and team, only to have the entire weekend foiled because your tire manufacturer isn't as well prepared as the next one. On one hand, hey it's racing. On the other...there are rules and standards on engine displacement, weight, fuel consumption, etc... No reason tires couldn't be in there as well. All it would do is ADD to the excitement of the sport by eliminating the BIGGEST variable around at the moment.

Yeah, but WSBK is not based on experimental technology like GP is. The only part of GP that is boring now is the first place finisher. The rest of the pack is still pretty tight and is fun to watch.

I don't think that spec tires are the answer though. Just thinking out loud but I imagine that the compounds are different based on how the bikes are mapped. In other words, the Ducati is mapped for power on the straights where the Yamaha is mapped for power in the turns (I believe that is what I read). That means that if you have a dual compound tire the Ducati would run harder in the center than the Yamaha tire (Is that logic correct?) and could run harder on the sides too since the Ducati would not be accelerating out of the turns as hard (or would they run softer in the center for braking grip?). In any case, I am not sure that the compounds could be the same. Intuitively I would think that a spec tire would make all of the bikes map the same or close to the same. But I am probably wrong in my thinking.

james

[hobbes]

Yeah, but WSBK is not based on experimental technology like GP is. The only part of GP that is boring now is the first place finisher. The rest of the pack is still pretty tight and is fun to watch.

I don't think that spec tires are the answer though. Just thinking out loud but I imagine that the compounds are different based on how the bikes are mapped. In other words, the Ducati is mapped for power on the straights where the Yamaha is mapped for power in the turns (I believe that is what I read). That means that if you have a dual compound tire the Ducati would run harder in the center than the Yamaha tire (Is that logic correct?) and could run harder on the sides too since the Ducati would not be accelerating out of the turns as hard (or would they run softer in the center for braking grip?). In any case, I am not sure that the compounds could be the same. Intuitively I would think that a spec tire would make all of the bikes map the same or close to the same. But I am probably wrong in my thinking.

james

I don't know how to answer that, other than WSBK does it and there seems to work well.   I just want to see good racing, and right now having a championship hinging on a tire manufacturer doesn't encourage my excitement in the series.

[maddjack]

There is very little trickle down from racing beyond bling. Composites come from aerospace and traction technology mostly comes from the automotive world. MotoGP tire tech doesn't help nearly as much as what the companies learn from SuperSport racing.

Agreed to a point,you forget cutting edge,the super sport will tricle down from GP (I was only talking tire tech not anything else) so it will find its way to us after proofing in SS , The new pilot road ads say from Gp tech would you doubt an ad ?
Additionally the fly by wire throttle used by Yamaha is from GP tech,the wheelspin sensors for ABS on some of the manufactures bikes use Gp tech , its far from just bling withthat kind of money invested in racing,its cutting edge development to see what is viable for the future saleable street bikes

[atypical1]

and right now having a championship hinging on a tire manufacturer doesn't encourage my excitement in the series.

It is not just the tire and it is not just the bike. Capirossi is on the same bike with the same tires but he ain't on the podium.

james

[Mr Sunshine]

Fuck it.....let's run spec everything so everyone has an equal chance to suck!

Spec racing is great for some areas but MotoGP is EXPERIMENTAL...thus no spec shit anywhere.

[badger]

Atypical1 and MSunshine have good points.  MotoGP isn't which is the best bike or best tire or best rider, it's which team combines those elements for the best performance.  Which team can manage the variables for the win.

Right now despite not having "teh BEstest rider evar!", Ducati with Stoner and Bridgestone has motoGP dialed in and should benefit from their work.

[pearsonm]

Rules are for politicians, lawyers and whiney little pussies. GP is no-holds-barred racing, so let everybody trip over themselves trying to build the best stuff. Meanwhile, we get more goodies.

[DogBoy]

Agreed to a point,you forget cutting edge,the super sport will tricle down from GP (I was only talking tire tech not anything else) so it will find its way to us after proofing in SS , The new pilot road ads say from Gp tech would you doubt an ad ?
Additionally the fly by wire throttle used by Yamaha is from GP tech,the wheelspin sensors for ABS on some of the manufactures bikes use Gp tech , its far from just bling withthat kind of money invested in racing,its cutting edge development to see what is viable for the future saleable street bikes

Throttle by wire and wheel speed sensors were on production cars well before they were seen on race bikes. Very little real tech trickles down from racing.

[highside]

I don't know how to answer that, other than WSBK does it and there seems to work well.   I just want to see good racing, and right now having a championship hinging on a tire manufacturer doesn't encourage my excitement in the series.

I think you described it pretty good. If i wanted to watch more WSBK I would, but we are talking about moto GP which has a whole different point. You want exciting racing on the grid then you want a class with heavily spec'd bikes and tires ala' WSBK. OR you can watch motoGP where the excitement is in watching the fastest bikes that they can make. Thats why I think things were better with the 996 bikes because they were exciting in their own right.

[Jeff N]

Would we be having this tire argument if the recent Misano race wasn't DePunietiated? Repsol Honda and Michelin have shown some progress of late. Maybe not enough to challenge Stoner and his Ducati, but they are catching up.

[highside]

Would we be having this tire argument if the recent Misano race wasn't DePunietiated? Repsol Honda and Michelin have shown some progress of late. Maybe not enough to challenge Stoner and his Ducati, but they are catching up.

It probably should be noted that the top three michelin rides were taken out early in the race as a result of incidents that had nothing to do with tires. With them in the race it might not have resulted in a complete Bridgestone sweep.

[Jeff N]

It seems to be either feast or famine with MotoGP. We go from one year where the World Champion wins only 2 races yet is persistently consistent (Hayden) to a season where one rider is running away with almost all trophies (Stoner). It doesn't matter to me. I find it all fascinating. When you're at a MotoGP in person and can pay attention, you'll see fights for position all throughout the field. It's too bad the TV production can't show that. The TV also cannot make your ears bleed. Well, maybe if you watch MTV.

[LicketySplat]

motoGP where the excitement is in watching the fastest bikes that they can make. Thats why I think things were better with the 996 bikes because they were exciting in their own right.

  the 800's have been making consistently better lap times than the 990s, ya know? I assume the top speeds on the straightaways are a bit lower, although truly I haven't even paid attention to that figure... there's not much exciting about straight line speed (unless you're the pilot  )

[highside]

  the 800's have been making consistently better lap times than the 990s, ya know? I assume the top speeds on the straightaways are a bit lower, although truly I haven't even paid attention to that figure... there's not much exciting about straight line speed (unless you're the pilot  )

I don't know how much time you have spent watching the 500cc and 996cc bikes racing, but in my opinion they were quite a bit more interesting to watch than the 800s. It isn't so much about the lap speed but how the bikes behave.

[Mookie]

I don't know how much time you have spent watching the 500cc and 996cc bikes racing, but in my opinion they were quite a bit more interesting to watch than the 800s. It isn't so much about the lap speed but how the bikes behave.

That has less to do with the 800 cc limit and much more to do with the progression of traction control.

I wish they'd ban traction control, then we'd get the fun racing back.

[atypical1]

There is very little trickle down from racing beyond bling. Composites come from aerospace and traction technology mostly comes from the automotive world. MotoGP tire tech doesn't help nearly as much as what the companies learn from SuperSport racing.

You are wrong sir! I mean look at the CBR 1000RR Repsol edition. All of those stickers are trickle down from GP!

 

james

[LicketySplat]

I don't know how much time you have spent watching the 500cc and 996cc bikes racing, but in my opinion they were quite a bit more interesting to watch than the 800s. It isn't so much about the lap speed but how the bikes behave.

I'm with you on the 500s, not so much on the 990s - and I agree that traction control is the likely culprit. (And yeah, I'd only seen one GP before Speedvision started televising the races in I believe it was '97, so plenty people here have more experience of the 500cc era than I do.) I was only taking issue with your statement that dropping from 990 to 800cc was a bad thing because they're no longer "the fastest bikes they can make."

[Jeff]

I think they should do the opposite of spec tires... or spec anything. They should do no rules at all. No cc limits, no spec tires, no weight limits, no restrictions. See who can make the fastest bike with unlimited options.

Jeff

[Mookie]

I think they should do the opposite of spec tires... or spec anything. They should do no rules at all. No cc limits, no spec tires, no weight limits, no restrictions. See who can make the fastest bike with unlimited options.

Jeff

I'd build an F1 car!

[DogBoy]

I think they should do the opposite of spec tires... or spec anything. They should do no rules at all. No cc limits, no spec tires, no weight limits, no restrictions. See who can make the fastest bike with unlimited options.

Jeff

I'd build a bike that was great off the line and then dropped oil and ball bearings on the track.

[LicketySplat]

I'd build a bike that was great off the line and then dropped oil and ball bearings on the track.

That would be what they call a "four-stroke." Been done.  

[Jeff]

I'd build an F1 car!

OK, the rules would be, two wheels, an engine, and goes really fast.

[Mr Sunshine]

OK, the rules would be, two wheels, an engine, and goes really fast.

Shouldn't we add a a rule that there is a live human rider on that bike?

[miles]

That has less to do with the 800 cc limit and much more to do with the progression of traction control.

I wish they'd ban traction control, then we'd get the fun racing back.

And the highsides.  Don't forget the highsides.

[LicketySplat]

Shouldn't we add a a rule that there is a live human rider on that bike?

Naw, the FIM would never enact a rule that would exclude Pedrosa.

[hobbes]

OK, the rules would be, two wheels, an engine, and goes really fast.

SEE!! You need rules!!



I'm totally up for no spec tires, but only if we trade it for banning traction control. One rule for another...

[hobbes]

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Sep/070912c.htm


Don't mind me...I'm just over here whistling a tune of satisfaction...

[Mr Sunshine]

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Sep/070912c.htm


Don't mind me...I'm just over here whistling a tune of satisfaction...

Pete you can stop whistling now.

http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,15038.0.html

Rossi is sticking with the Michelin's.

[hobbes]

Pete you can stop whistling now.

http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,15038.0.html

Rossi is sticking with the Michelin's.

I read that too, but you didn't get the idea of the article. If Rossi is sticking with Michelins and still so far out of it next year, the second he hints on leaving Dorna will react regarding tires. Who knows what they will do, but you'd be dumb not to think they would consider a spec tire.

[bizarro]

There will be no spec tire in MotoGP.

[Mookie]

There will be no spec tire in MotoGP.

+1

There's no way they'll go to a spec tire, it just wouldn't make sense and there's no way the Michelin or Bridgestone would allow it to happen with all the money and resources they are dropping on GPs now.

[hobbes]

+1

There's no way they'll go to a spec tire, it just wouldn't make sense and there's no way the Michelin or Bridgestone would allow it to happen with all the money and resources they are dropping on GPs now.

I see. Well then...I guess I'm wrong.


Oh wait! Check this out from August...

http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=30039

Biaggi and Rossi agree:

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/mcn/2007/july/jul23-29/july27biaggityrerule/

So does Colin Edwards:

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/mcn/2007/august/aug20-27/aug2307motogpcolinedwardsfavourcontrolledtyre/?&R=EPI-93949

When World Superbikes switched to a one-make tyre rule with Pirelli the exclusive tyre supplier, Colin Edwards was sceptical about the change.

But he added: “I was against the one-tyre rule when they brought it out in World Superbikes. I wasn’t there but I was like ‘man that’s crap.’ But the racing has been awesome.

“That’s all I watch when I’m at home. Look at the 250 and 125 races, Dunlop is the tyre and those classes have such good racing because it’s a one-tyre make.

“If I was in charge and had the authority I’d say give me you’re bid. Who has got the best support and who will come in and run the show? Whoever has the best they win, simple as that.”


-Colin Edwards

And finally:

Then again, perhaps Dorna and/or the MSMA will take matters into their own hands and address the tire situation themselves. On the same Italian website, Dorna boss Carmelo Ezpeleta is quoted as saying the following: “The tire-limit rule is without a doubt a mistake, but it was decided upon by the tire makers. It’s probably not true that the balance is only off in one direction—if it’s true that Bridgestone dominated at Laguna Seca, it’s also undeniable that it was Michelin’s turn at the Sachsenring, but the fact is really this: MotoGP isn’t the tire world championship, but the rider and manufacturer championship, and we have to work in such a way that the importance of the tires is reduced. The rule is a mistake because it has created, from race to race, big differences. It’s early to say that the rule will be removed for 2008, and I don’t want to give that impression, but the tire makers have to meet and come up with an acceptable proposal for avoiding that the championship goes in the direction of a spec tire.”

It seems hard to believe that Dorna would swallow their pride by following the lead of World Superbike, but it’s clear from Ezpeleta’s words that they’re not happy with the current situation of yawn-inducing racing.

(emphasis mine)

from:

http://www.roadracerx.com/article.php?article_id=480

Dorna may not want a spec tire, but they sure are considering all options.


A lot of you have no clue what drives MotoGP. It's not the technology is is SALES!! Tires are ruining the racing. It's time to take tires out of the equation. Let the manufacturers build the best bikes for the best riders, and not be handicapped with shitty rubber.

[atypical1]

Funny, it is the guys who are getting their asses handed to them who are complaining now.

james

[bizarro]

There will be no spec tire in GP.

[Mookie]

I don't disagree that it would make for better racing, I just don't see how it would ever work politics-wise.

[hobbes]

I don't disagree that it would make for better racing, I just don't see how it would ever work politics-wise.

It worked for WSBK. Pirelli was the odd man out before the spec tire rule. They year it started the times were slower than the year before with the Michelins, but it was done anyhow. Now look at the series. It's enjoying it's best racing ever the past two years, and interest is UP!

[hobbes]

There will be no spec tire in GP.

You can take a "hmph. I'm right and that's it" approach to this all you want. The fact is that a spec tire rule is being considered and actively discussed for MotoGP. Hopefully the competition will even out by itself and it wont happen, but if it doesn't for next year and the sport loses more fans to boring racing expect some major changes.

Don't rule out a spec tire.

[DogBoy]

I'll go with hobbes in favor of a spec tire. I think Dorna repealing the tire limit rule is more likely, though.

[MisterSmooth]

Yeah, I do enjoy the poetry in motion that is the perfectly sorted team of Stoner, Ducati, and Bridgestone as well. It just isn't all that interesting to watch.

Anyone else really impressed with how well the Suzukis are starting to run? I think that may prove to be an interesting development next season.

Yeah, Suzuki looks great this year.

And like Rossi and Edwards on the 990 Yamahas, it's interesting to see that the Ducati suits Stoner much better than his teammate who is also very talented but much slower.

[pearsonm]

Rules made WSBK and AMA what they are today. Minimalist rules built MotoGP, and it needs to stay that way.