This'll End A Career Or Two

[jerome_oneil]

Again, wasn't someone boasting about how tight our nuke security is?

You still haven't told us if any of those weapons ever left Air Force control.

* hint.  It's an answer with only two letters.  Starts with 'N.'

[bizarro]

  No shit sherlock, the fact that they went anywhere they weren't supposed to at all is a big enough problem.


Nuclear warheads taking a joy ride is not a small matter.

[UFO]

I dunno 'bout that. People are being let go left and right around here. Ya sure, some of the upper management types get a version of the golden parachute, but it's up and down the line here; if you can't or won't climb on board, seek employment elsewhere.

Define being "let go."  We've also had people "let go" for efficiency or spending reduction or their position becomes obsolete or their given a choice like "leave with this package or go on probation for 3 months at which time we will re-visit your performance" type crap.

In 10 years at this company I've never seen a person fired for incompetence or for screwing up.  And I'm talking about "You're fired.  Clear out your desk and turn in your badge to HR by noon." type scenario.  It seem very difficult to get your ass canned in this day and age of litigation.

We'll see what happens with the people involved with flying nukes around the country and not even knowing it.

[Req]

You still haven't told us if any of those weapons ever left Air Force control.

* hint.  It's an answer with only two letters.  Starts with 'N.'

It's more the fact that the transport of the nukes wasn't discovered until the plane landed.  The entire time it was in the air, the AF was clueless as to what it was carrying, and the base from which it left was unaware that they were missing nukes.  The pilot, and air traffic control, and all the rest were treating the plane as if it was a routine flight, which it wasn't.

If the weapons had left air force control, this would have been a more egregious security violation.  That doesn't in any way mean that what did occur was trivial.

[Scratch33]

You still haven't told us if any of those weapons ever left Air Force control.

* hint.  It's an answer with only two letters.  Starts with 'N.'

Wrong question.  Did those nuclear weapons leave the control of the responsible parties within the Air Force?  

That answer obviously has 3 letters.

[jerome_oneil]

It's more the fact that the transport of the nukes wasn't discovered until the plane landed.  The entire time it was in the air, the AF was clueless as to what it was carrying, and the base from which it left was unaware that they were missing nukes.  The pilot, and air traffic control, and all the rest were treating the plane as if it was a routine flight, which it wasn't.

If the weapons had left air force control, this would have been a more egregious security violation.  That doesn't in any way mean that what did occur was trivial.

Certainly not a trivial event.  In fact, lets hypothesize an even more egregious error, and say the B-52 crashed.

Who gets to the crash site 1st.  The fire department and the Air Force, or the turrorists?

[sprintrock]

I think you meant to say "This'll get a person or two promoted"

Hasn't anyone noticed that there's almost zero accountability for incompetence in America anymore?  Donald Trump popularized the term "You're Fired!" but I don't think it's actually practiced in this country anymore...in the private or public sector.  These days incompetence usually leads to:  payed leave, administrative leave, corrective action (which amounts to nothing), or even promotion.

Not to thread jack or start a vicious debate on the subject, but look at the Abu Gharab (pardon the spelling) Prison fiasco in Iraq.  I am sure some officers knew what was going on and the only ones getting burned are the enlisted.  I think they should be punished for this embarrassment, but come on don't you think some brass knew what was going on.  I served in the Corps and I can't imagine pulling shit like that and my Lt being oblivious.  Anyway sorry for going off your topic, but UFO got me thinking about the fact that people get rewarded for bad behavior.  

[Req]

Certainly not a trivial event.  In fact, lets hypothesize an even more egregious error, and say the B-52 crashed.

Who gets to the crash site 1st.  The fire department and the Air Force, or the turrorists?

Prolly the fire department and airforce.  After all, there aren't any turrorists in the US, 'cause we're fightin' 'em over there so we don't hafta fight 'em here.  

This is, however, evidence that enough of the control structure for nuclear weapon control can be broken, subverted, or just plain ignored to get them onto an aircraft without authorization.  Imagine for a moment that some sketchy East German terrorists with funny accents had offered that aircraft's crew $50 million each for ze nuklear veapons...

I sincerely hope that the AF figures out what went wrong and fixes it up good.

[Rogue]

Imagine for a moment that some sketchy East German terrorists with funny accents had offered that aircraft's crew $50 million each for ze nuklear veapons...

I find it impossible that such a crew would even take up the offer.

[jerome_oneil]

I sincerely hope that the AF figures out what went wrong and fixes it up good.

You can absolutely count on that.

[Req]

I find it impossible that such a crew would even take up the offer.

'Member how the pilot didn't know he was carrying nukes?

You can absolutely count on that.

Yeah, this isn't some political thing, I'm positive that they take it very, very seriously.

[livetoride]

B-52 mistakenly flies with nukes aboard

By Michael Hoffman - Staff writer
Posted : Wednesday Sep 5, 2007 14:39:12 EDT
   
A B-52 bomber mistakenly loaded with five nuclear warheads flew from Minot Air Force Base, N.D., to Barksdale Air Force Base, La., on Aug. 30, resulting in an Air Force-wide investigation, according to three officers who asked not to be identified because they were not authorized to discuss the incident.

The B-52 was loaded with Advanced Cruise Missiles, part of a Defense Department effort to decommission 400 of the ACMs. But the nuclear warheads should have been removed at Minot before being transported to Barksdale, the officers said. The missiles were mounted onto the pylons of the bomber’s wings.

Advanced Cruise Missiles carry a W80-1 warhead with a yield of 5 to 150 kilotons and are specifically designed for delivery by B-52 strategic bombers.

Air Force spokesman Lt. Col. Ed Thomas said the transfer was safely conducted and the weapons were in Air Force custody and control at all times.

However, the mistake was not discovered until the B-52 landed at Barskdale, which left the warheads unaccounted for during the approximately 3 1/2 hour flight between the two bases, the officers said.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/09/marine_nuclear_B52_070904w/

We live in odd times, I mean I think it's odd that the first thing our officers do when there has been an error is call the MEDIA..
-Peter

[jerome_oneil]

'Member how the pilot didn't know he was carrying nukes?



Yeah, this isn't some political thing, I'm positive that they take it very, very seriously.

Here is another scenario.  When a military aircraft crashes on a base, the fire department asks a few basic questions first.  "What kind of craft was it?" so they know how to egress the flight crew, and most importantly "What was the weapons and fuel load?"

How would you like to be some firefighter in the bomb bay of a skidded out B-52 and find yourself with that tingly feeling in your nads?   "They told me these were practice weapons, but they aren't blue!"

It's also worth noting that general weapons security, even for conventional iron bombs and missiles, in the Air Force is pretty strict.  Much stricter than the Navy's.   I remember my dad (career in the Air Force fire services) sitting on the mess decks on Ranger during a Tiger cruise on the way back from Gulf War I.  The weapons guys we're moving missiles from one SAF to another.   The weapons elevators open onto the mess decks, so they'd be rolling live warheads through groups of sailors eating lunch.   In the Air Force, they have armed convoys and transport the entire way.  

Dad was amazed that they'd just roll missiles through the mess decks while we were eating.   I can't imagine what the security precautions are for special weapons.

[Scratch33]

We live in odd times, I mean I think it's odd that the first thing our officers do when there has been an error is call the MEDIA..
-Peter

I'm sure that wasn't the first thing any officers did; and I'm also sure they were aware that the incident would eventually become public at any rate.  

Better IMO to announce both it and the investigation now, through official channels; than be accused of attempting to cover it up.

[Scratch33]

It's also worth noting that general weapons security, even for conventional iron bombs and missiles, in the Air Force is pretty strict.  Much stricter than the Navy's.   I remember my dad (career in the Air Force fire services) sitting on the mess decks on Ranger during a Tiger cruise on the way back from Gulf War I.  The weapons guys we're moving missiles from one SAF to another.   The weapons elevators open onto the mess decks, so they'd be rolling live warheads through groups of sailors eating lunch.   In the Air Force, they have armed convoys and transport the entire way.  

Dad was amazed that they'd just roll missiles through the mess decks while we were eating.   I can't imagine what the security precautions are for special weapons.

I was in a Navy F-4 Squadron (VF-33) back in the mid 70's & worked on both the Hangar Deck and Flight Deck of the Independence (CV-62) and Eisenhower (CVN-69).  Although I was a mechanic, during bombing "derbies" and other such activities we'd get assigned to help the "Ordies" haul practice bombs, 500 lb. and 1000 lb. bombs, Sparrows and Sidewinders up to the flight deck and load them onto planes.  I don't recall any special security-related precautions for the conventional stuff.  But for nukes, everthing got shut down tight by the MARDET.  Absolutely no access to the Hangar or Flight Deck for anyone not involved.  

[Jeff N]

Define being "let go."

Terminated. Fired. Usually for incompetence, sometimes for a complete deriliction of duty, but mostly incompetence. We may not handle nuclear weapons around here, but the things we do could conceiveably affect millions of people.

[Giaka]

Blah that was just a dry run to see if they could pull it off. You know, so later the establishment can launch a 5kt tactical on a US city and point at (use W voice) AL KAIDA. Don't you guys listen to talk radio?  Actually they would need to launch two to prove the first wasn't a fluke.  

[MisterEd]

You guys are reading way, way, way too much in to this.

Remember, we're talking the US Guvimint here.  Furthermore, we're talking the US Military here.

The explanation for this is very simple:

The company clerk pulled form DD-57/J out of the file instead of the DDR-57/J.  He fills it out in quintuplicate and then has the General sign it.  But, the General signs in on the wrong line (since the bottom of the DD-57/J form has 8 places for signatures, rather than the DDR-57/J, which has ten - AND the Generals signature line isn't in the same place on the two forms) without realizing it.  The company clerk sends the form along to the base commander who also mistakenly signs in the wrong place on, what will become known soon as the wrong form.  When the form gets sent up to Division, the forms intake clerk there notices that it's a DD-57/J rather than a DDR-57/J and promptly fills out an RQS-1204/1206-7 form (which, as we know is the form required to inform the base commander that the wrong form was filed) and attaches it to the original DD-57/J, hands it to a courier and has it sent back to the base commander.

Meanwhile, thinking the correct form has been filed, the flightline guys load the B-52.

The DD-57/J (with attached RQS-1204/1206-7 - Notification, paperwork/form, incorrect application) has arrived back at the base commander's office where his clerk opens it, adds the specific unit notification of incorrect application of paperwork, and sends it back to the original clerk.  The original clerk realizes his error and goes and gets the DDR-57/J form for the general to sign and the whole process repeats itself - except for the fact that because this particular order is nuclear in nature, an incorrect form filing report (DoD form RPT-1999-JAG-3445/R) has to be filed by the original clerk and then approved by the general and the base commander.

Meanwhile, the B-52 has flown to its destination and sat on the ground for two days while THAT base's flightline commander awaits the DDR-57/J copy that he was supposed to have received before the plane landed (but the courier was late - no big deal, happens all the time)

See, simple.  It's ALWAYS about the paperwork.  ALWAYS.  

[Jeff N]

 

I assure you, Mrs. Buttle, the Ministry is very scrupulous about following up and eradicating any error. If you have any complaints which you'd like to make, I'd be more than happy to send you the appropriate forms.

[Scratch33]

Coming up next on "Nuke Bloopers and Practical Jokes"...