Track Day Plateau (mental block?)

[garry]

I've been to 8 track days in the last few years, all at BeaveRun (north of Pittsburgh) aside from a day at Mid-Ohio with CLASS. Half of the track days were instructional type days with alternating classroom session and track session (STT, CLASS, TPM). Just did a track day on Wednesday that the local Euro shop sponsored (European Motorcycles of Pittsburgh, great shop). My question:

According to the control riders, my form and lines are fine. But I'm freaking slow. The fast guys are running 1:05 and I'm (maybe) around a 1:20. 15 seconds is a HUGE gap. I seem to have hit a plateau or mental block or something. I'm smooth and comfortable going thru the corners but really don't care for triple digits on the straights. I don't look at the speedo much but I did glance down a few times and generally saw numbers in the 100 - 110 range when the speedy guys are probably doing 140-something. But they're really fast in the corners too.

I don't know what the issue is. Afraid of speed or just not used to processing info at a ton plus? Don't trust my tires? Afraid of crashing? I don't think I ever have self-induced pucker moments on the track. Feels like a spirited street ride without the concerns about gravel, traffic, etc. I *know* that I have a very strong desire to never ever crash, especially since I have to ride my bike to the track (and then home). I'm sure I could get a ride from a friend if something happened, but I wonder if I have a mental block at riding harder than 90% or something. Dunno...

So, I'm sure I'm not the first guy to feel like they're not getting any better. Any thoughts or suggestions? I'm at the point of just giving up on track days since it seems I'm not getting much value out of them.

[Gaolee]

Are you having fun?  If so, who cares what your lap times are.  If not, why do trackdays?  If you don't feel like burying the throttle, then don't bury the throttle and don't worry about it.

[1moreroad]

Random thoughts -- 8 track days in a few years is NOT a lot.  I've done 5 track days in 3 years and I am VERY rusty for at least the first 1/2 day if not the whole first day on the track after almost a year off.  Guys like Ptrauber on this site were getting fast on the track when he was going at least once a month.

3 different instructional groups will have 3 different styles to teach.  I find myself avoiding instructional days and looking for just open track days because I want to practice what I know and not learn something different/new.

If you are going 30 mph slower on the straights then you will not be running the lap times the fast guys go.  I see this, too -- I'm happy to go a little slower on a straight if it means I can set up a perfect line in the next corner.  But I can get held up if the guy I passed before the last corner goes WOT on the straight and passes me only to slam on the brakes before the next corner.  He still gets away from me for at least a couple of corners because my braking points get all screwed up.  That's a track day, especially an intermediate day because of the wide range of skills.

If your lines really are fine, then yeah, you could probably go a little faster safely.  Just turn the throttle a little more.  Practice accelerating harder exiting turns which will put you on the next straight faster which will put you into the next corner faster....

Follow the fast guys (and make sure they know you're following them so they can keep the pace just right).  I've had plenty of control riders tell me I'm doing fine.  Then I had one ask me to follow him.  We went 20 mph faster than I had been going without any pucker moments.  I still went 10 mph by myself in the next session because I knew what was possible.

[garry]

Are you having fun?  If so, who cares what your lap times are.  If not, why do trackdays?  

In general, no I'm not having fun when on the track. Hanging in the pits with my friends is usually huge fun. It's like going to the gym to work out. I go to track days to improve my skills. But it appears my skills aren't getting any better (as evidenced by my stagnant lap times), hence my question/post. I'd rather be riding twisties all day where the scenery and corners are constantly changing.

I don't care what my lap times are, other than as a measure of skill improvement. I don't have a lap timer, just going by guessimates from control riders. It feels like I haven't made any improvements in anything in the last several track days. I just ride around at the same (relatively slow) pace from the first session to the last.

If I don't feel like I'm getting better, I *will* stop doing track days. I just don't want to give up on them too soon. You can never be too good a rider and I don't know of any place to really work on skill-building other than the track. My pace on the street is kept in check by wanting to never out-ride my eyes, even on familiar roads.

[garry]

Follow the fast guys (and make sure they know you're following them so they can keep the pace just right).  I've had plenty of control riders tell me I'm doing fine.  Then I had one ask me to follow him.  We went 20 mph faster than I had been going without any pucker moments.  I still went 10 mph by myself in the next session because I knew what was possible.

I did that the last session. Had a friend/CR go out to work with me the whole (last) session when traffic was really light. I'd stay with him in the corners, but then he'd put HUGE distance on me in what felt like seconds on the back straight (blind right over a hill). He must keep the throttle pinned over the blind hill and down the back side onto the straight where I'm tentative and in maintenance throttle mode until I can see what's ahead. Plus, people that greedy on the throttle there tend to highside because the bikes suspension unloads going over the hill.

I'm not willing to follow anyone at their pace. I ride MY pace. Period.  Just can't do it. I refuse to ride outside my comfort zone. That leads to crashing. I don't ever want to feel that queasy feeling that you're about to enter a turn a little hotter than expected and hope you survive it. I'm just looking for thoughts on how people have expanded their comfort zone for speed once they apparently have the mechanics down.

[miles]

I'm not willing to follow anyone at their pace. I ride MY pace. Period.  Just can't do it. I refuse to ride outside my comfort zone.

There's your answer right there.  The track is the best possible place to expand your comfort zone, and the only way to do that is to step out a little bit, see that it isn't so bad, and then it becomes your new comfort zone.  This is only going to happen if you are willing to make yourself push it that little bit.  Leave the throttle on slightly longer at the end of the straight- go into the turn a little hotter (but not a lot hotter) than you'd really like.  Odds are it'll work out, and if you repeat it a few times the experience will stick.


miles

[Randy FJR]

So, your cornering speed is fine, but, you aren't hitting big speeds on the straights?  Have you considered looking into different bikes such as an SV650/Ninja650 or maybe even a motard bike?  You can bang them through the turns like a 600, but, you won't be hitting the higher speeds in the straights.

[garry]

So, your cornering speed is fine, but, you aren't hitting big speeds on the straights?  Have you considered looking into different bikes such as an SV650/Ninja650 or maybe even a motard bike?  You can bang them through the turns like a 600, but, you won't be hitting the higher speeds in the straights.

I'm (relatively) slow everywhere, just less slow in the corners. I'm in the slow third of Intermediate at some track days. Probably middle of Beginner at a local NESBA day (NESBA runs a hotter pace at the Beav than most).

Regarding running in a corner a little hot and "odds are it'll work out". I have zero tolerance for "odds are it'll work out". There must be NO DOUBT that it will work out or I won't do it. Absolute *zero* tolerance for self-induced crashing. I must be so far in my comfort zone that I feel there is zero chance of crashing unless someone takes me out. I won't go 1 MPH faster than that.

As I've been thinking about it, I'm way more stressed on the track than on the street. Had no issues doing 80-something on the turnpike on the ride home in traffic, but 90-ish felt stressful at the track. I don't I've ever finished a session at the track with a smile on my face. More a sense of relief at surviving it and hopefully making some progress on being smooth, etc.

[Mr Sunshine]

There's your answer right there.  The track is the best possible place to expand your comfort zone, and the only way to do that is to step out a little bit, see that it isn't so bad, and then it becomes your new comfort zone.  This is only going to happen if you are willing to make yourself push it that little bit.  Leave the throttle on slightly longer at the end of the straight- go into the turn a little hotter (but not a lot hotter) than you'd really like.  Odds are it'll work out, and if you repeat it a few times the experience will stick.

miles

+1

It all depends on your goals but if you want to simply go faster and that is improving your skills then you have to suck it up quite regularly and just step beyond your comfort zone.

For me I race....thus my goal on the track is simply to go faster how ever I have to do that.  Right now I've sort of hit a wall.  But I know exactly why I'm at that wall and I'm continuing to try to push myself through it.  

[1moreroad]

I did that the last session. Had a friend/CR go out to work with me the whole (last) session when traffic was really light. I'd stay with him in the corners, but then he'd put HUGE distance on me in what felt like seconds on the back straight (blind right over a hill). He must keep the throttle pinned over the blind hill and down the back side onto the straight where I'm tentative and in maintenance throttle mode until I can see what's ahead. Plus, people that greedy on the throttle there tend to highside because the bikes suspension unloads going over the hill.

I'm not willing to follow anyone at their pace. I ride MY pace. Period.  Just can't do it. I refuse to ride outside my comfort zone. That leads to crashing. I don't ever want to feel that queasy feeling that you're about to enter a turn a little hotter than expected and hope you survive it. I'm just looking for thoughts on how people have expanded their comfort zone for speed once they apparently have the mechanics down.

A good control rider will monitor your pace and adjust his so he's teaching you and not just riding faster than you.  The guys I've followed were clearly watching me in their mirrors.  The backstraight at Buttonwillow is almost 1/2 mile long.  The CR pulled away, checked mirrors, then completely sat up and adjusted his gloves while I rolled up on him.  Not good for the ego, but very amusing.    Then he passed my braking point into the next corner and braked much later than I thought I should -- with no drama or anxiety on my part when I followed him.  Following him, his line made perfect sense even though I never would have found it on my own.

That blind right hill -- unlike road riding where you pass the same corner once in a 10 hour day -- goes the same place every 70 - 90 seconds for you all day long.  If you have ridden it 10 times, it will go the same place on the 11th time so you probably can go a little faster.  If YOU are nowhere near unloading your suspension or nowhere near the bike feeling funny, just follow your CR on his line, roll on the throttle smoothly, and go a little faster.  If your bike is getting squirelly trying to follow the CR, then it is time to adjust or upgrade (probably just adjust) the suspension.

Finally there's comfort zone and there's an extremely comfortable comfort zone.  Don't go out of the first one.  Be willing to go to the edge of the second one.  

I'm not willing to crash either.  Heck, I've ridden to half my track days and come Monday, the tape comes off, the fuses go back in, and I commute.  But small increases in speed, especially on straights, should not put you into a pucker moment.

I'm definitely interested in this thread because I'm in the same place you are -- how do you become a better rider incrementally without a huge risk?

EDITED TO ADD:

Regarding running in a corner a little hot and "odds are it'll work out". I have zero tolerance for "odds are it'll work out". There must be NO DOUBT that it will work out or I won't do it. Absolute *zero* tolerance for self-induced crashing.

How about you come out of the corner a little hotter instead of coming into the corner a little hotter?  Then you'll have a little more speed for the straight.  Roll on the throttle a bit more or a bit earlier than you had previously.  Worse case should be that you might get a little rear wheel slide which you can control with the throttle.  It really is not a big deal and it is really useful to control slides on the street.

One other thought -- you probably really are nowhere near crashing how you're riding right now.  You've probably got a larger safety margin than you realize.

[Mr Sunshine]

I'm definitely interested in this thread because I'm in the same place you are -- how do you become a better rider incrementally without a huge risk?

You don't and those that try to crash out.  Riding faster and doing it with minimal risk (comparitly) is all about baby steps.  After my crash in July which was due to trying to charge a corner too hard I had to step back on my braking as my confidence wasn't there.  Everyone I spoke to about it agreed that baby steps is the right key to getting back.  

Most of us out there aren't going to make a career out of this...so why risk it all for nothing?  There are a couple of guys in my paddock I consider to be crashers....are they getting faster?  Sometimes buy damn they sure are paying a huge price to get there.

[miles]

Regarding running in a corner a little hot and "odds are it'll work out". I have zero tolerance for "odds are it'll work out". There must be NO DOUBT that it will work out or I won't do it. Absolute *zero* tolerance for self-induced crashing. I must be so far in my comfort zone that I feel there is zero chance of crashing unless someone takes me out. I won't go 1 MPH faster than that.

You don't know that it won't work out, either.  Extrapolating your argument all the way, you would never have gotten on a motorcycle to start with- you certainly didn't KNOW that you wouldn't crash immediately, did you?  It's the same thing.  

Contemporary motorcycle tire technology is fantastic, and most bikes handle pretty well these days, too.  If you aren't dragging hard parts on the ground, and the track is clean and dry, you WILL make it OK around the turn (unless you run out of technique, and bail).  

Go faster than you are comfortable.  As Chris stated, take baby steps.  Don't go 10mph faster into a tight turn, but 2 mph should be OK.  As a useful learning process, take every turn on the track but two well separated turns at really mellow speeds.  Speeds so low you really don't have to give them any thought at all.  The two you pick (say, turn 3 and turn 8, for example) should be far enough apart that you have plenty of time to think about what just happened on the first one before you get to the second, and vice versa.  It's best if one is a left and the other is a right.  

So just concentrate on these two turns for a couple of sessions.  Ignore overall lap times, speed on the straights, all of it.  Just hit those two turns ever so slightly faster, and analyze how it felt as you proceed down the track to the next target turn.  Keep hitting them at that slightly uncomfortable speed until it becomes comfortable.  Put all your focus into improving on just those two turns.  Later, pick another two turns.  And so on.

So many riders get caught up in overall lap times that they fail to spend the time thinking about what they are doing at any given turn.  Breaking it down this way will help.  All your buds will sail by like crazy while you are doing this, but by the end of the day your times will be much better than at the start.


miles

[Windblown]

Mental block? Yes is is.

I couldn't imagine spending money on TD's if I didn't find them fun.  If you are really into it only for the training then I'd suggest a true track school versus Trackdays. That being said I'll throw out my 2 cents on getting faster. The first being: With few exceptions you should strive to either have the throttle pinned or be on the brakes. Theres no coasting. (though for us mere mortals there is usually a few points where we are at maintenance throttle for a moment or two)

Last year I was a B rider in Nesba. I ran into a brick wall speed wise over the course of several TDs.  I simply could not "find" anymore speed.  I was going as fast as I could and stay in control. Like you mentioned I felt I simply could not process the information coming at me any quicker.  I mentioned this to a CR and he sat me down and we has a long talk about the visualization skills I needed to work on.  

Visualization techniques are expressed in a variety of ways. "connecting the dots" "Seeing the line" etc. You have to find what works for you.  Conecting the dots means looking ahead to next furthest point on the track you can see and aiming for it. Before you get to it you are identifying the next dot, and so on.  This technique helps keep me looking far ahead on straights and thru kinks which makes things easier to process. For corners I try to visualize the intended line as glowing line in the track as I approach the corner. When I can "see" this line my corner entry speeds are always much better. I keep focused on the furthest point of this line which is as far out as I can see the track and it's where I put my concentration, again this keeps you looking AND concentrating further into the distance.

The very first day I tried this new visualization Voodoo I dropped from a 1:17's or so to a 1:13's on Beaverun. The very next day I dropped my lap times into the 1:10's there.  But what's really neat is I was turning 1:10's with less stress and more confidense than I had been turning the 1:17's.

Try it, you might like it.

One other thing: There are speed demons who get blazing fast in a hurry, crash occasionally, and in general love it all.  At 45 years old I'm no speed demon, can't afford to crash, and might retire from TD's when that day comes. I've managed to get thru 20+ TD's without a crash by sneaking up on the speed/cornering game VERY slowly.  If you're on a decent track (which BeaverRun certainly is) you can bail on a turn with the only penalty being a bruised ego. Just make sure you stand the bike up, bleed off what speed you can, and then stay off the front brake when you hit the grass.  

Edit: Now if I could just stop jerking up my knee each time it hit the deck I might get a bit quicker. Lately I start my TD's by bumping each knee once, unexpectedly, in the first session. Then I simply stop letting it drop far enough to hit the deck anymore, which not only affects my form adversly it also affects my drive into the corners.

So you're not alone on mental blocks. I need to buy an old worn out stunters bike and go do circles in the local parking lot till I can just go round and round dragging the pucks till they melt off.  

[Mr Sunshine]

If you're on a decent track (which BeaverRun certainly is) you can bail on a turn with the only penalty being a bruised ego. Just make sure you stand the bike up, bleed off what speed you can, and then stay off the front brake when you hit the grass.  

This is how I broke a 16 year old's lower leg during a race.  Don't stand it up ever.  Fight until that wheel leaves the pavement because you could always make it.

[garry]

Just got back from a 12 hour ride in the twisties (466 miles, no slab). I guess the track day helped somehow, because I was running 5 - 10 MPH faster most of the day and still in my "relaxed enough to appreciate the scenery" mode. I felt very comfy, planted, whatever you want to call it. I rode those very same roads two weekends ago.

The BeaveRun investors have open "lapping days" every so often. I should try to do one. Usually about a dozen bikes with a green track. Sounds like the perfect day to work on specific corners and see if I can get used to twisting the fun handle more.

[Windblown]

This is how I broke a 16 year old's lower leg during a race.  Don't stand it up ever.  Fight until that wheel leaves the pavement because you could always make it.

Sad about breaking the boys leg.  The story could as easily read "I tried to hang with the corner and lowsided into a rider and broke his leg."  or "I stuffed the guy in the corner and sent him flying."  That's racing, and if you're racing then by all means hang in their until you find yourself sliding on your butt on the chance you'll make it. But then this discussion isn't about racing.

Racers even at the pro level bail on corners when not in a race all the time. I've seen then come down a straight and just ride right off the track as they work on adjusting their brake markers.  Saves a lot of wear and tear on the machines and the rider.

To each their own though. But I stand by my advice to bail on a corner that your mind is screaming you'll never make for a TD rider with nothing more to gain than "winning" a trackday.  

[Gaolee]

I am with Chris all the way.  If you bail in a corner, you never know who might be coming around the outside.  Most organizations don't allow inside passing in corners until you are essentially turning racing laptimes, so passing in corners is done around the outside.  I am still running in the intermediate group during trackdays, so I do a whole lot of passing on the outsides of corners.  If I fall off, and I did recently, it is far better to do it to myself and not take anyone else out.  If somebody had bailed at the wrong time, they would have collected me and my bike, with day ending results and maybe big injuries for one or both of us.

As a point of comparison, a friend saved a nearly inevitable crash by just throwing the bike into a corner and looking where he wanted to go.  Chris saw it happen.  He momentarily lost concentration while shifting over a hump in the track.  The momentary lapse resulted in a huge wheelie in an unfortunate location and then a bad tankslapper.  When he though the crash was inevitable, he figured he might as well just throw it in and hope for the best.  Sure enough, the bike stuck and he saved it.  Only bail when the bike is headed for the ground already.  If it is still on two wheels and on the pavement, look through the corner and keep your wits about you.  Easier said than done for sure, but it is worth the attempt.

[Mr Sunshine]

As a point of comparison, a friend saved a nearly inevitable crash by just throwing the bike into a corner and looking where he wanted to go.  Chris saw it happen.

Yeah I was breaking out the popcorn to watch and see what would happen when I saw that.  Of course I was glad he saved it as it would have been knarly.


On that note the pro's might stand it up and run it off the track or down the exit road....and you mentioned it is because they are adjusting their brake markers.  Them unlike you are running at 100+% of their bikes abilities.  There is a world of difference between them and you.  When in doubt toss it in.  Worse case you are still going down but at least you fought for it.  

[Gaolee]

As soon as you came by and described what happened, I knew exactly who it was!  

[Windblown]

On that note the pro's might stand it up and run it off the track or down the exit road....and you mentioned it is because they are adjusting their brake markers.  Them unlike you are running at 100+% of their bikes abilities.  There is a world of difference between them and you.  When in doubt toss it in.  Worse case you are still going down but at least you fought for it.  

No doubt about the difference in ability.

I respect your points about throwing it in because the chances are good the bike will handle it. But I've seen plenty of folks lowside in a corner well below the pace that the bike could handle. It's not just up to the bike to get thru the corner.  There is very little chance a rider will crash by standing up the bike and bailing on a corner unless they have completely frozen up, which if that's the case they didn't have it together enough to negoiate the corner anyway.

As to the possibility of collecting a rider in the process.  That's not going to happen in the OP's situation unless someone is breaking the rules in B group.

As for NESBA and the intermediate group. I run Nesba Intermediate. In every NESBA riders meeting I've attended the danger of making an outside pass is driven home. Usually followed by a recomendation to avoid attempting it during a trackday.  That's not to say we can't make the pass, just that the danger of doing it is on the rider attempting it. If you get collected up by the fellow on the inside you misjudged the situation.

25+ TD's with various groups. A handful of off track excursions, no one collected, no one stuffed, and no crashes.  I realize that that's a small number of days on a track compared to many, but not too many have done that number of days and kept the rubber side down everytime. (as I furiously knock on wood cause I know the day is coming sooner or later)