Offroad Technique

[SWriverstone]

Okay, here's a thread for beginners about offroad riding technique. I won't contribute any, because I'm a beginner—so I'm hoping that other more experienced dirtbikers can give some good basic tips. Ideas include...

• techniques for riding down steep hills
• techniques for riding up steep hills
• techniques for jumping over obstacles (logs, curbs, boulders, whatever)
• techniques for cornering on loose gravel and dirt

Though some people may have real dirtbikes, I think more of us are probably dual-sporters—so it would be helpful if techniques were geared toward 400-500lb bikes!

And to any V-Strom / 1150GS / F650 / KTM950 / KLR owners (and similar bikes)...if you've ever done any hardcore gnarly single-track trail riding on your BIG dual-sport, tell us about it! I'd love to hear about experiences on these bikes. (Again, I say BIG bikes because in my opinion, taking a light little dirtbike down a trail versus a KLR or GS are TOTALLY different experiences! LOL)

Scott

PS - I already have several good sportbiking technique books—can people recommend some good offroad riding books? (With a focus on technique more than tricking out bikes.)

[hovmaven]

I'd be interested in hearing responses.  I bet one will be "the rear brake is your friend."

[pushrod]

+1 on being interested in the topic.
 
My only experience was in the last ice age on mx bikes before monoshock. Two 30' flights - one horizontal, one vertical didn't seem to help. I imagine the basics are the same, only adjusted for weight/inertia, much less traction, a heavy front end - making it difficult to loft the front end to lessen upset over obstacles & deep sand/mud. I'll be heading back into this area - likely a weeStrom - mostly to have a mount that can comfortably take the lovely bride. I don't expect dazzling off road performance from the wee, but it'll do fine for the terrain I'd do now (lots and lots of logging roads 'round here).
 
The biggest adjustment for me learning the pavement ponies was that the FRONT brake was your friend. I was used to never using it on the dirt. The current mx crowd says that chassis/suspension is so improved they use the front more than the back. I seriously doubt this is done on the heavy dual sports - but would also like to hear from those that are/have done it more.
 
DD's report (don't know if its reposted yet) about off road & partially successful hill climbing on her GS was all I remember seeing on the board here. The thought of serious dirt being attempted w/ a 500lb bike makes me queazy. If the 'strom does materialize, it will be generously outfitted w/  bash plate, crash bars & flushmount lights.

[SWriverstone]

I agree Pushrod—the sheer weight of my KLR (less than the VFR, but still heavy as lead!) makes me extremely wary of pushing my envelope offroad, especially by myself. I've got it armored up like a Brinks truck, but I'm still wary, mainly because just picking the bike up is a pain in the butt! I really want/need to network and ride with other dual-sport owners just for the support aspect (as well as to learn).

When it comes to dirt technique, I think dual-sports are often ignored, because "real" dirtbikers scoff at them as too big and heavy (while they go zipping away on their tiny, lightweight machines).

I'd *like* to think that if you get good at riding offroad on a 450lb bike, then you'd probably have some serious skill and be able to slice 'n dice on a little dirtbike—because you'd be better at keeping the bike up! (Since the consequences of dropping it are greater.)

I just sent Neduro over on ADVrider a PM asking if he'd be willing and able to teach a day-long "dual-sports only" clinic in this area. The cost would be $150-200, but I think it would be worth it. He's a busy guy and might not be able to...but it's worth a try. If anyone knows any other dirt experts that would be willing to "break ranks" with real dirtbikers to teach a bunch of DS bikers how to ride better offroad, I'd love to know who they are!

I plan to keep riding on fire roads, double-track trails, etc...but it'll be long, slow progress as long as I'm on my own...  

Scott

[photomd]

'kay...I'll see what I can add.

Keep in mind, though, this is coming from a 38 year old who took out his own knee in Oct and in general is slow.  

Going down hill is easy: put your fanny as far back as possible, low gear, weight the pegs (lowers your center of gravity), feather the rear brake.

Going up hill: put the bars on your chest or belly, get plenty of momentum and stay on the gas. Again, weight the pegs. The guys that are good at these two things will amaze ya with how steep they can climb or descend.

Jumping logs and obstacles depends on the size. Generally roll up, wieght distributed between your feet and bars, then lean back, lift the front wheel if possible (some people use the clutch, some just twist the throttle) and over you go. Start little and work on being able to wheelie...it helps alot here.

As for cornering, get off the seat and weight the front tire. That's why dirtbikes have a seat that goes all the way up the tank. If I'm going slow (1st gear) I *used* to put my inside foot out. However I lost the front WOT in third gear and put my foot down. I just had my ligament in my left knee reconstructed as a result. I should have put my weight on the pegs and stood the bike up.   Hopefully I'll remember this next time.

As for braking, get to know your front brake. Get in loose dirt, lock the front wheel while you're riding in a straight line. Get to know how this feels. You keep the bike up by balancing it with your feet. You'll be amazed at how far you can go. I've never gone down doing this and it gives you a feel for a locked front wheel. Then get a feel for your front brake on loose surfaces.

On the dirt, how much front brake you use will be dependent on your tires. On decent grass and a good front tire, it's possible to do a stoppie. If you only rely on your rear brake, you won't stop very well. Use both and get know your limits.

I lost the front several times in corners before I really got it down, but once you get the feel you'll be faster in the dirt: at least now I can keep up with the 10 year olds on 85's. Wonder if I can step it up and keep the 12 year olds on 125's in sight?  

[Mrs. DantesDame]

Here are some things that I've gleaned from my rides in the dirt/sand/mud to get you started:

Keep your arms loose. There should be very little input to the handlebars. Its hard to do when you first start, but it makes all the difference in the world. Just let your arms hang, let the front wheel do what it likes, and you'll be golden. I thought that riding the RT 1100 through slick mud would be a nightmare, but I just let the bike do what it needed to and all was well.

Rear brake - yep, that's the key!

When in doubt, gas it! Yep, also counter-intuitive, if you feel the bike start to flounder, give it a little goose on the throttle. More than likely this will pull you out of a sticky situation and get the bike settled down

Up steep hills: fast approach speed and very steady on the throttle once you start to climb

For deep sand: stand up and put your weight over the rear wheel. This will allow the front wheel to "float" and not get snarled up in the sand

Most of all: practice, practice, practice!  

[Nny]

I gotta find some good fire roads around here to practice on...  I noticed a lot of people stand up in the dirt all the time.  My question is when do you sit on the seat and when do you stand on the pegs?

[bluepoof]

I gotta find some good fire roads around here to practice on...

Come to our BADS (Bay Area Dual Sport) ride on Dec 31!  I'll be leading a mostly-road-but-some-dirt ~90 mile loop starting and ending in Cupertino.  

I noticed a lot of people stand up in the dirt all the time.  My question is when do you sit on the seat and when do you stand on the pegs?

I stand up 90% of the time offroad, and *definitely* when going up or down hills.  You basically want to use your legs as shock absorbers on bumpy terrain (sitting on the seat would make your butt and, er, bits, take the brunt of the impact).  Keep your knees bent and your elbows up.

My elbows could definitely be up more here, but this is the general idea:



When going uphill, stand so that your head is over the handlebar clamp. (Larger photo here)



When going downhill, stand and squat so that your ass is sticking backwards and your arms are a little straighter (don't lock your elbows though).



Best dirt advice I ever got was "don't worry about it".  Just keep your eyes up like you would on the street and prepare to be amazed with how an offroad bike will just eat up dirt and rocks and bumps with very little stress to you.  

[iceman]

I gotta find some good fire roads around here to practice on...  I noticed a lot of people stand up in the dirt all the time.  My question is when do you sit on the seat and when do you stand on the pegs?

Standing up allows your knees to act like shock absorbers and helps with control over rough areas. Sitting is better left for smooth riding and cornering. I mostly stand when riding hard in the dirt.

[SWriverstone]

Except in corners right? I mean, if you're wailin' around a turn on a gravel or dirt road, I don't think you want to be standing do you? Seems to me like there are times when raising your center of gravity can be VERY hazardous! I always feel safer sitting in corners because I can put a leg out/down if needed.

I've also found that when you're rumbling along relatively flat stretches over rocks and bumps, I do much better just lifting my butt slightly off the seat than being in a full-on stand—again, this is because it keeps my CG lower, which I feel is better. (My quads and knees can handle this for pretty extended periods.)

I'm not against standing at all...but I think rider height makes a big difference in the relative comfort and safety of standing—a tall rider will be a lot higher (and have a higher CG) than a short rider.

Scott

[Mrs. DantesDame]

Except in corners right? I mean, if you're wailin' around a turn on a gravel or dirt road, I don't think you want to be standing do you? Seems to me like there are times when raising your center of gravity can be VERY hazardous! I always feel safer sitting in corners because I can put a leg out/down if needed.

oh no, I stand in the corners all of the time! In fact, at slower speeds at least I find that weighting the inside peg while standing will help the bike take the corner easier and more sure-footedly. And you know that I'm not a short rider. Stand! Stand! Stand!

Of course I'm also not one of those guys who will put a foot out when squeeling around a corner, simply because I never take them that fast  

Edited to add this pic of KurtW:

[black hills]

While most of my dirt riding is in the woods or racing Enduros and Hare Scrambles on my KTM300exc, I do get the CBR off road from time to time. It slides around fairly well all things considered? Standing up is very important! Your back and kidneys will thank you at the end of the day. Stand up all the way with your knees slightly bent (never locked!) The troubles with just raising your butt off the seat a little is that it takes a lot of energy and wears your legs out very quickly. You can stand in corners, but sitting seems to work better at higher speeds. Don't be afraid to use the front brake, the braking bias is the same as on the street. Not using the front brake in the dirt is asking for trouble! Remember to look where you want to go, not at what you want to avoid. Most importantly don't fight the bike, it's going to move around. Sometimes it moves more than you would like, but just let it do it's thing, if you fight it you will end up with arm pump and worn out, not to mention you will fall down more. Try to relax and let the bike do all the work, you'll be flying down the trail in no time!!

Here are some photos of the indoor enduro. http://www.chaosclicker.com/photogallery/cat%20Friday%20Vet%20B/indexVetB.html    That's me, #346. As you can see I'm not standing all the way, as a result I tired very quickly. Fortunately, I only had to ride 12 minute motos. If I'm in the woods for all day I stand up straighter.

[iceman]

I stand a lot when riding. Helps to see the terrain ahead and gives much better control.

Except in corners right? I mean, if you're wailin' around a turn on a gravel or dirt road, I don't think you want to be standing do you? Seems to me like there are times when raising your center of gravity can be VERY hazardous! I always feel safer sitting in corners because I can put a leg out/down if needed.

You might re-read my post. I sometimes sit when cornering, depends on the terrain. I would be sitting while cornering on gravel for sure though.

[bluepoof]

 In fact, at slower speeds at least I find that weighting the inside peg while standing will help the bike take the corner easier and more sure-footedly.

That's one of the things they taught us at the MSF Dirt Course that Star/Krismark/Rocketbunny/I took at Femmoto this year.  One of the drills was doing weaves and figure 8s while standing on the bikes and weighting the inside peg.  It took some getting used to (at least for me) but it was way cool!

Awesome photo of Tania Satchwell demonstrating this concept, courtesy of Slingshot:



Oh, and while I'm blathering, another thing I was taught in a dirt class is that sticking your inside leg out in a turn is done for BALANCE, to get your hips pivoted, NOT to touch ground with, especially for new riders on rocky terrain.  You're actually weighting the outside peg when the inside leg is out.  Weighting the inside, sticky-outie, leg is a good way to snag your foot and break an ankle.

Me being taught at Hollister in November 01 (yes, yes, that's me despite the hair color):

[bluepoof]

Oh, and SW was also asking about good dirt technique books; here are my favorites:

Dirt Rider's Motocross Riding Tips



Pro Motocross and Off-Road Riding Techniques

[marc11]

After reading the threads I took my KLX out for a couple of hours (I have the day off today) to my local super secret riding spot.  Lots of open trails, jumps, steep hills, berms and soft/loose dirt.  Of yeah, some woods riding and mud too.

I have to say, the rear brake IS your friend, which is soooooo hard to learn after years of street and track riding, let the bike "do its thing" in the loose stuff, gas is better than brakes more often than not and oh year, a puddle is almost always deeper than it looks  

20 miles later I had yet another grin on my face.  Now, if I can learn to hit the berms and jumps better and not be a wuss, life would be grand.  What a work out.

[black hills]

  Now, if I can learn to hit the berms and jumps better and not be a wuss, life would be grand.  What a work out.

Preload the suspension a little off jumps and it will make them smoother. As for the berms, back brake to turn it in and then lot's of throttle. Once you learn to steer with the throttle things get much easier.

[Mrs. DantesDame]

Preload the suspension a little off jumps and it will make them smoother. As for the berms, back brake to turn it in and then lot's of throttle. Once you learn to steer with the throttle things get much easier.

Ooo - that's what I want to learn to do. I did it once on the GS, but I'm sure it would have been more fun if I had actually meant to do it  

[black hills]

Ooo - that's what I want to learn to do. I did it once on the GS, but I'm sure it would have been more fun if I had actually meant to do it  

It's all in timing, which I'm no good at?? If you do it right the bike flies, and lands, much smoother.

[F_rider]

One of the best techniques for learning came from Jim Hyde of RawHyde Riding School. He took us down a hard dirt road and had us get up on the pegs, then lift one leg up, rest it on the seat behind you and eventually get it all the way over, behind the leg that stays on the peg. This sounds (and looks) like some kind of stunt rider gimmick but really works. The idea is to give you the feel of putting your weight on one leg, to feel it in your hands, etc.

Then, his advice was to learn how that feels then put your weight on to the outside peg as you lean in to a turn on dirt. This seems to be different than what some have suggested in this post so I'm not sure I am reading them right.   This is for just about any speed, however, so that you can push right, for example, to go right, but as you are standing, you are pushing your weight on to your left, outside leg/foot. Of course, you do the opposite in a left hand turn.

I found it worked great on a 40 mile dirt road known as the Flattops Trail in central Colorado, even in some very soft dirt.

BTW, my first post since the reincarnation of the board. Nice to see this dirt forum.