Offroad Technique

[SWriverstone]

Okay, here's a thread for beginners about offroad riding technique. I won't contribute any, because I'm a beginner—so I'm hoping that other more experienced dirtbikers can give some good basic tips. Ideas include...

• techniques for riding down steep hills
• techniques for riding up steep hills
• techniques for jumping over obstacles (logs, curbs, boulders, whatever)
• techniques for cornering on loose gravel and dirt

Though some people may have real dirtbikes, I think more of us are probably dual-sporters—so it would be helpful if techniques were geared toward 400-500lb bikes!

And to any V-Strom / 1150GS / F650 / KTM950 / KLR owners (and similar bikes)...if you've ever done any hardcore gnarly single-track trail riding on your BIG dual-sport, tell us about it! I'd love to hear about experiences on these bikes. (Again, I say BIG bikes because in my opinion, taking a light little dirtbike down a trail versus a KLR or GS are TOTALLY different experiences! LOL)

Scott

PS - I already have several good sportbiking technique books—can people recommend some good offroad riding books? (With a focus on technique more than tricking out bikes.)

[hovmaven]

I'd be interested in hearing responses.  I bet one will be "the rear brake is your friend."

[pushrod]

+1 on being interested in the topic.
 
My only experience was in the last ice age on mx bikes before monoshock. Two 30' flights - one horizontal, one vertical didn't seem to help. I imagine the basics are the same, only adjusted for weight/inertia, much less traction, a heavy front end - making it difficult to loft the front end to lessen upset over obstacles & deep sand/mud. I'll be heading back into this area - likely a weeStrom - mostly to have a mount that can comfortably take the lovely bride. I don't expect dazzling off road performance from the wee, but it'll do fine for the terrain I'd do now (lots and lots of logging roads 'round here).
 
The biggest adjustment for me learning the pavement ponies was that the FRONT brake was your friend. I was used to never using it on the dirt. The current mx crowd says that chassis/suspension is so improved they use the front more than the back. I seriously doubt this is done on the heavy dual sports - but would also like to hear from those that are/have done it more.
 
DD's report (don't know if its reposted yet) about off road & partially successful hill climbing on her GS was all I remember seeing on the board here. The thought of serious dirt being attempted w/ a 500lb bike makes me queazy. If the 'strom does materialize, it will be generously outfitted w/  bash plate, crash bars & flushmount lights.

[SWriverstone]

I agree Pushrod—the sheer weight of my KLR (less than the VFR, but still heavy as lead!) makes me extremely wary of pushing my envelope offroad, especially by myself. I've got it armored up like a Brinks truck, but I'm still wary, mainly because just picking the bike up is a pain in the butt! I really want/need to network and ride with other dual-sport owners just for the support aspect (as well as to learn).

When it comes to dirt technique, I think dual-sports are often ignored, because "real" dirtbikers scoff at them as too big and heavy (while they go zipping away on their tiny, lightweight machines).

I'd *like* to think that if you get good at riding offroad on a 450lb bike, then you'd probably have some serious skill and be able to slice 'n dice on a little dirtbike—because you'd be better at keeping the bike up! (Since the consequences of dropping it are greater.)

I just sent Neduro over on ADVrider a PM asking if he'd be willing and able to teach a day-long "dual-sports only" clinic in this area. The cost would be $150-200, but I think it would be worth it. He's a busy guy and might not be able to...but it's worth a try. If anyone knows any other dirt experts that would be willing to "break ranks" with real dirtbikers to teach a bunch of DS bikers how to ride better offroad, I'd love to know who they are!

I plan to keep riding on fire roads, double-track trails, etc...but it'll be long, slow progress as long as I'm on my own...  

Scott

[photomd]

'kay...I'll see what I can add.

Keep in mind, though, this is coming from a 38 year old who took out his own knee in Oct and in general is slow.  

Going down hill is easy: put your fanny as far back as possible, low gear, weight the pegs (lowers your center of gravity), feather the rear brake.

Going up hill: put the bars on your chest or belly, get plenty of momentum and stay on the gas. Again, weight the pegs. The guys that are good at these two things will amaze ya with how steep they can climb or descend.

Jumping logs and obstacles depends on the size. Generally roll up, wieght distributed between your feet and bars, then lean back, lift the front wheel if possible (some people use the clutch, some just twist the throttle) and over you go. Start little and work on being able to wheelie...it helps alot here.

As for cornering, get off the seat and weight the front tire. That's why dirtbikes have a seat that goes all the way up the tank. If I'm going slow (1st gear) I *used* to put my inside foot out. However I lost the front WOT in third gear and put my foot down. I just had my ligament in my left knee reconstructed as a result. I should have put my weight on the pegs and stood the bike up.   Hopefully I'll remember this next time.

As for braking, get to know your front brake. Get in loose dirt, lock the front wheel while you're riding in a straight line. Get to know how this feels. You keep the bike up by balancing it with your feet. You'll be amazed at how far you can go. I've never gone down doing this and it gives you a feel for a locked front wheel. Then get a feel for your front brake on loose surfaces.

On the dirt, how much front brake you use will be dependent on your tires. On decent grass and a good front tire, it's possible to do a stoppie. If you only rely on your rear brake, you won't stop very well. Use both and get know your limits.

I lost the front several times in corners before I really got it down, but once you get the feel you'll be faster in the dirt: at least now I can keep up with the 10 year olds on 85's. Wonder if I can step it up and keep the 12 year olds on 125's in sight?  

[Mrs. DantesDame]

Here are some things that I've gleaned from my rides in the dirt/sand/mud to get you started:

Keep your arms loose. There should be very little input to the handlebars. Its hard to do when you first start, but it makes all the difference in the world. Just let your arms hang, let the front wheel do what it likes, and you'll be golden. I thought that riding the RT 1100 through slick mud would be a nightmare, but I just let the bike do what it needed to and all was well.

Rear brake - yep, that's the key!

When in doubt, gas it! Yep, also counter-intuitive, if you feel the bike start to flounder, give it a little goose on the throttle. More than likely this will pull you out of a sticky situation and get the bike settled down

Up steep hills: fast approach speed and very steady on the throttle once you start to climb

For deep sand: stand up and put your weight over the rear wheel. This will allow the front wheel to "float" and not get snarled up in the sand

Most of all: practice, practice, practice!  

[Nny]

I gotta find some good fire roads around here to practice on...  I noticed a lot of people stand up in the dirt all the time.  My question is when do you sit on the seat and when do you stand on the pegs?

[bluepoof]

I gotta find some good fire roads around here to practice on...

Come to our BADS (Bay Area Dual Sport) ride on Dec 31!  I'll be leading a mostly-road-but-some-dirt ~90 mile loop starting and ending in Cupertino.  

I noticed a lot of people stand up in the dirt all the time.  My question is when do you sit on the seat and when do you stand on the pegs?

I stand up 90% of the time offroad, and *definitely* when going up or down hills.  You basically want to use your legs as shock absorbers on bumpy terrain (sitting on the seat would make your butt and, er, bits, take the brunt of the impact).  Keep your knees bent and your elbows up.

My elbows could definitely be up more here, but this is the general idea:



When going uphill, stand so that your head is over the handlebar clamp. (Larger photo here)



When going downhill, stand and squat so that your ass is sticking backwards and your arms are a little straighter (don't lock your elbows though).



Best dirt advice I ever got was "don't worry about it".  Just keep your eyes up like you would on the street and prepare to be amazed with how an offroad bike will just eat up dirt and rocks and bumps with very little stress to you.  

[iceman]

I gotta find some good fire roads around here to practice on...  I noticed a lot of people stand up in the dirt all the time.  My question is when do you sit on the seat and when do you stand on the pegs?

Standing up allows your knees to act like shock absorbers and helps with control over rough areas. Sitting is better left for smooth riding and cornering. I mostly stand when riding hard in the dirt.

[SWriverstone]

Except in corners right? I mean, if you're wailin' around a turn on a gravel or dirt road, I don't think you want to be standing do you? Seems to me like there are times when raising your center of gravity can be VERY hazardous! I always feel safer sitting in corners because I can put a leg out/down if needed.

I've also found that when you're rumbling along relatively flat stretches over rocks and bumps, I do much better just lifting my butt slightly off the seat than being in a full-on stand—again, this is because it keeps my CG lower, which I feel is better. (My quads and knees can handle this for pretty extended periods.)

I'm not against standing at all...but I think rider height makes a big difference in the relative comfort and safety of standing—a tall rider will be a lot higher (and have a higher CG) than a short rider.

Scott

[Mrs. DantesDame]

Except in corners right? I mean, if you're wailin' around a turn on a gravel or dirt road, I don't think you want to be standing do you? Seems to me like there are times when raising your center of gravity can be VERY hazardous! I always feel safer sitting in corners because I can put a leg out/down if needed.

oh no, I stand in the corners all of the time! In fact, at slower speeds at least I find that weighting the inside peg while standing will help the bike take the corner easier and more sure-footedly. And you know that I'm not a short rider. Stand! Stand! Stand!

Of course I'm also not one of those guys who will put a foot out when squeeling around a corner, simply because I never take them that fast  

Edited to add this pic of KurtW:

[black hills]

While most of my dirt riding is in the woods or racing Enduros and Hare Scrambles on my KTM300exc, I do get the CBR off road from time to time. It slides around fairly well all things considered? Standing up is very important! Your back and kidneys will thank you at the end of the day. Stand up all the way with your knees slightly bent (never locked!) The troubles with just raising your butt off the seat a little is that it takes a lot of energy and wears your legs out very quickly. You can stand in corners, but sitting seems to work better at higher speeds. Don't be afraid to use the front brake, the braking bias is the same as on the street. Not using the front brake in the dirt is asking for trouble! Remember to look where you want to go, not at what you want to avoid. Most importantly don't fight the bike, it's going to move around. Sometimes it moves more than you would like, but just let it do it's thing, if you fight it you will end up with arm pump and worn out, not to mention you will fall down more. Try to relax and let the bike do all the work, you'll be flying down the trail in no time!!

Here are some photos of the indoor enduro. http://www.chaosclicker.com/photogallery/cat%20Friday%20Vet%20B/indexVetB.html    That's me, #346. As you can see I'm not standing all the way, as a result I tired very quickly. Fortunately, I only had to ride 12 minute motos. If I'm in the woods for all day I stand up straighter.

[iceman]

I stand a lot when riding. Helps to see the terrain ahead and gives much better control.

Except in corners right? I mean, if you're wailin' around a turn on a gravel or dirt road, I don't think you want to be standing do you? Seems to me like there are times when raising your center of gravity can be VERY hazardous! I always feel safer sitting in corners because I can put a leg out/down if needed.

You might re-read my post. I sometimes sit when cornering, depends on the terrain. I would be sitting while cornering on gravel for sure though.

[bluepoof]

 In fact, at slower speeds at least I find that weighting the inside peg while standing will help the bike take the corner easier and more sure-footedly.

That's one of the things they taught us at the MSF Dirt Course that Star/Krismark/Rocketbunny/I took at Femmoto this year.  One of the drills was doing weaves and figure 8s while standing on the bikes and weighting the inside peg.  It took some getting used to (at least for me) but it was way cool!

Awesome photo of Tania Satchwell demonstrating this concept, courtesy of Slingshot:



Oh, and while I'm blathering, another thing I was taught in a dirt class is that sticking your inside leg out in a turn is done for BALANCE, to get your hips pivoted, NOT to touch ground with, especially for new riders on rocky terrain.  You're actually weighting the outside peg when the inside leg is out.  Weighting the inside, sticky-outie, leg is a good way to snag your foot and break an ankle.

Me being taught at Hollister in November 01 (yes, yes, that's me despite the hair color):

[bluepoof]

Oh, and SW was also asking about good dirt technique books; here are my favorites:

Dirt Rider's Motocross Riding Tips



Pro Motocross and Off-Road Riding Techniques

[marc11]

After reading the threads I took my KLX out for a couple of hours (I have the day off today) to my local super secret riding spot.  Lots of open trails, jumps, steep hills, berms and soft/loose dirt.  Of yeah, some woods riding and mud too.

I have to say, the rear brake IS your friend, which is soooooo hard to learn after years of street and track riding, let the bike "do its thing" in the loose stuff, gas is better than brakes more often than not and oh year, a puddle is almost always deeper than it looks  

20 miles later I had yet another grin on my face.  Now, if I can learn to hit the berms and jumps better and not be a wuss, life would be grand.  What a work out.

[black hills]

  Now, if I can learn to hit the berms and jumps better and not be a wuss, life would be grand.  What a work out.

Preload the suspension a little off jumps and it will make them smoother. As for the berms, back brake to turn it in and then lot's of throttle. Once you learn to steer with the throttle things get much easier.

[Mrs. DantesDame]

Preload the suspension a little off jumps and it will make them smoother. As for the berms, back brake to turn it in and then lot's of throttle. Once you learn to steer with the throttle things get much easier.

Ooo - that's what I want to learn to do. I did it once on the GS, but I'm sure it would have been more fun if I had actually meant to do it  

[black hills]

Ooo - that's what I want to learn to do. I did it once on the GS, but I'm sure it would have been more fun if I had actually meant to do it  

It's all in timing, which I'm no good at?? If you do it right the bike flies, and lands, much smoother.

[F_rider]

One of the best techniques for learning came from Jim Hyde of RawHyde Riding School. He took us down a hard dirt road and had us get up on the pegs, then lift one leg up, rest it on the seat behind you and eventually get it all the way over, behind the leg that stays on the peg. This sounds (and looks) like some kind of stunt rider gimmick but really works. The idea is to give you the feel of putting your weight on one leg, to feel it in your hands, etc.

Then, his advice was to learn how that feels then put your weight on to the outside peg as you lean in to a turn on dirt. This seems to be different than what some have suggested in this post so I'm not sure I am reading them right.   This is for just about any speed, however, so that you can push right, for example, to go right, but as you are standing, you are pushing your weight on to your left, outside leg/foot. Of course, you do the opposite in a left hand turn.

I found it worked great on a 40 mile dirt road known as the Flattops Trail in central Colorado, even in some very soft dirt.

BTW, my first post since the reincarnation of the board. Nice to see this dirt forum.

[T.RexRacing]

Seat time!!Seat time!!!!!

That's the key to riding well no matter what the discipline.Come ride with me for a weekend.You'll be sore and beat up.Your bike may have some wear and tear but the smile will be difficult to remove from your face.Trial by fire.

[bluepoof]

Then, his advice was to learn how that feels then put your weight on to the outside peg as you lean in to a turn on dirt. This seems to be different than what some have suggested in this post so I'm not sure I am reading them right.  

On a wide berm, right? Cambered such that the outside of the turn is higher?  In that case, I'll do exactly as you said and weight my outside peg (this would be an example of sticking the inside leg out for balance).

In a tight little swiggle, though, or if the turn is off-cambered, I like to steer by pushing down on the inside foot. Makes a very nice crisp turn.

[hig4s]

I see a lot of good advice here.. Weighting the out side is a big time correct move.  but remember to stay standing or slide forward. If you ski, think of it like that. If you are taking a dirt corner fast and your front tire become unweighted it will washout, leaving you face first in the dirt possible with the bike bouncing over you.  Better to lose the back then the front, Unlike a street bike, the rear rarly re-catchs causing a highside.  Personally I try to stand as much as possible on rough terrain, even in corners.. Which at my age is not near as much as it use to be.

Also on sand,, weight back letting the front float is good advice,, but it really means float. the handelbars will wobble. Hold them firm but not death like. Don't fight it too much. On dirt you shouldn't be going fast enough for it to turn into a real tank slapper. If you are going that fast on sand, you are either braver or better than I, or maybe both.

[mtrider16]

Cool Stuff!  Thanks for sharing you class info Poof.

SW brought up a point a while back that I've been thinking about.  Going downhill can be unnerving in a heavy bike.  I would like to hear somebody else comment on my theory.  Many of us have DS with heavy panniers and tail packs.  While going downhill you need to balance you weight correctly.  Thus a rider on a heavily rear weighted bike, may need to keep their weight forward to make sure that the front tire has good traction.

I think this may be some problems that people have with the heavily packed DS bikes.  Too much rear bias, too much rear sag, and not enough front tire weight.

That ski analogy thingy...

Just my $.02
David

[mtrider16]

One thing, it is different to throw your weight around on a lightwieght MX, than a GS1100.  While the physics work the same, your going to need better technique to make the GS handle like a little MX.

Just a thought I had reading the advice that seems to be geared to MX riding.

David

[Acadian Rider]

I can't comment on off-road riding technique because it was almost thirty years ago when I had my "trail bike" (Can-Am 250) as they were called then.  

I'll just say that I am now reading Boorman's book "Race to Dakar" and he has quite a bit on off-road riding technique. Good read.  

BTW, the 07 Dakar must be starting pretty soon.  Take a look and see how they do it.    

 

[Acadian Rider]

I do much better just lifting my butt slightly off the seat than being in a full-on stand—again, this is because it keeps my CG lower, which I feel is better. (My quads and knees can handle this for pretty extended periods.)

I'm not against standing at all...but I think rider height makes a big difference in the relative comfort and safety of standing—a tall rider will be a lot higher (and have a higher CG) than a short rider.

Scott

O.K., Scott, I'll play.    

When you're standing on the pegs, your weight is actually lower than when you sit on the seat.  Plus, you can control the bike better with the transfer of your weight on them as Bluepoof has suggested.  

While going downhill, it's about braking and the more weight on your rear wheel, the more of it you'll get.  Soooo, get your butt over it.  I don't think I have to explain why you don't brake with your front wheel going dowhill.  

Going uphill, you want to keep the front wheel on the ground, so you stand up on top of it.

   

[T.RexRacing]

That was an honest invite to ride with me Scott.I have access to 250 acres here in Maryland and know a few places in PA to ride cheap.Lemme know if you want to ride.Free lessons dood.

[mtrider16]

O.K., Scott, I'll play.    

While going downhill, it's about braking and the more weight on your rear wheel, the more of it you'll get.  Soooo, get your butt over it.  I don't think I have to explain why you don't brake with your front wheel going dowhill.  

Please explain more.  I when I think of braking, you want maximum stopping force out of both tires.  Even though you are on a limited traction surface and at an incline, you will want to get the most stoping force out of the tires you can.  You will use some brake from both tires, just don't endo the bike.  At least this is how I have always thought of it, am I missing something?  

David

[T.RexRacing]

By all means use both brakes on a downhill.Just be gentle and deliberate with them.Get your ass out over the rear fender and use engine braking to assist.And I wheelie up big ass hills all the time.Shit,I wheelie everywhere.

[bluesurf]

Please explain more.  I when I think of braking, you want maximum stopping force out of both tires.  Even though you are on a limited traction surface and at an incline, you will want to get the most stoping force out of the tires you can.  You will use some brake from both tires, just don't endo the bike.  At least this is how I have always thought of it, am I missing something?  

David

You are correct...how much your butt is over the rear seat is dependent upon the bike configuration & load; it's a matter of degree.

The idea is to keep the front end light enough so that it's not causing drag or forced steering, yet in enough contact so that you *can* steer and have sufficient braking when needed.  It's a fine line that varies constantly dependent upon bike/load/terrain, but in most every case then the optimal position is going to be standing with knees bent and butt/weight center at least slightly back.  Too far forward would cause the front to dig and off-trail or over the bars you'd quickly go.  Too far back would result in minimal steering and/or front braking ability.  It's also easier to steer in a downhill situation with a locked rear brake than a locked front one.

[bluesurf]

Edited to add this pic of KurtW:

Cool pic!  

[iceman]

I use the front brake going down hill sometimes, very gently though. Mainly to help keep the back wheel from sliding.

[Dr. Lost]

Okay, here's a thread for beginners about offroad riding technique. I won't contribute any, because I'm a beginner—so I'm hoping that other more experienced dirtbikers can give some good basic tips. Ideas include...

• techniques for riding down steep hills
• techniques for riding up steep hills
• techniques for jumping over obstacles (logs, curbs, boulders, whatever)
• techniques for cornering on loose gravel and dirt

Though some people may have real dirtbikes, I think more of us are probably dual-sporters—so it would be helpful if techniques were geared toward 400-500lb bikes!

And to any V-Strom / 1150GS / F650 / KTM950 / KLR owners (and similar bikes)...if you've ever done any hardcore gnarly single-track trail riding on your BIG dual-sport, tell us about it! I'd love to hear about experiences on these bikes. (Again, I say BIG bikes because in my opinion, taking a light little dirtbike down a trail versus a KLR or GS are TOTALLY different experiences! LOL)

Scott

PS - I already have several good sportbiking technique books—can people recommend some good offroad riding books? (With a focus on technique more than tricking out bikes.)

I have a '93 KLX650 (yes KLX) and I had the stupid I dea in my head that I would be able to trail ride that bike and everytime I put it near single track Michigan Sand it spat me off like bitch.  Like "What the fuck were you thinking taking me on trails... WHAP"

Now I have taken the Big Kawi on some great adventures riding mostly dirt for 100's of miles and had just a blast but it has to be two track or better and the less sand the better.  The big ds bikes in my humble opinion are NOT trail machines.  But how many trail machines can hit the slab for 200 miles???

Lost

 

[bluesurf]

Ooo - that's what I want to learn to do. I did it once on the GS, but I'm sure it would have been more fun if I had actually meant to do it  

Ocean Shores is a cool place to play, have a picnic, fly a kite, & practice skills.  




I should've been farther back in the second pic...wasn't and didn't get the front yanked up even close enough to make it across without getting wet.

[bluesurf]

I have a '93 KLX650 (yes KLX) and I had the stupid I dea in my head that I would be able to trail ride that bike and everytime I put it near single track Michigan Sand it spat me off like bitch.  Like "What the fuck were you thinking taking me on trails... WHAP"

Now I have taken the Big Kawi on some great adventures riding mostly dirt for 100's of miles and had just a blast but it has to be two track or better and the less sand the better.  The big ds bikes in my humble opinion are NOT trail machines.  But how many trail machines can hit the slab for 200 miles???

Lost

A DR-Z400S, properly outfitted, will hit all but the very tightest of trails and then take you 200 pavement miles.  Don't ask for more than ~350-400 miles day after day, though.

[Johnny Monsoon]

Standing up allows your knees to act like shock absorbers and helps with control over rough areas. Sitting is better left for smooth riding and cornering. I mostly stand when riding hard in the dirt.

I'm still getting into dirt myself, but there are a few things I have learned by riding various dirt bikes (KLR650, KLX250S, TT-R125, and KLX110 (yeah, it looks funny, but it is a BLAST!).

Standing is good to help with shock, but a 'true' dirtbike will do much of that on its own.  The main advantage to standing on the pegs is that it moves the COG to the pegs from the saddle and makes the bike decidedly easier to control.  I know this sounds counterintuitive, but think about what you're actually doing.  If you're sitting on the bike, your weight is resting at saddle height.  If you are standing on the pegs, your body weight is now applied to peg-height, thus reducing your COG height substantially.  It was tough for me to get my mind around that idea (I was taught that one by a dirt bike nut) but as soon as I did, things got a lot smoother offroad!

When cornering in loose stuff, steer with the rear.  Inputs of rear brake and heavy throttle will put the rear end where you want it.  A bike like the KLR will tend to plant the front because of the heavy tank; this will cause the bike to just push into a straight line instead of spitting the rear around as easily (I know that sounds a little contradictory, but it is true).  That means you have to exxagerate your 'body language'.  

Body language is the key to anything offroad.  In martial arts, if you can control your opponent's head, you can move them wherever you want.  On a dirtbike, your bike will follow where your body wants to go.  That works well for cornering, uphill, and downhill.  For the uphill and downhill, get over the front (uphill) and rear wheel (downhill) respectively. Downhill:  Depending on the circumstance, open up the throttle and 'wheelie' down it.  You'll just have to learn from experience where this is appropriate and where it is painful...  

Clearing obsticles:  Tough on a KLR650; I'll admit right now that takes more skill than I possess.  I can clear some pretty impressive stuff (to me) on my TT-Rs and the KLX, but the KLR is just not built the same.  With the smaller bikes, just rolling off the throttle a bit, starting to shift my weight to the rear tire, then opening the throttle will lighten the front enough to pop it up over whatever.  You can get pretty good at this in a hurry and be rather precise with it.  I believe much of it has to do with a light motorcycle and the low gearing.  The lower gearing is important since it allows you to get power down quickly, but also allows you to back off the power nearly immediatly to control where you're going in tight and technical areas.  If you plan on doing way more offroading, step your gearing down and just live with it being a 'legal speed only' motorcycle on the road.  I have more fun offroad with these sorts of bikes anyway.

Anyway, that's what works for me.  Like I said, I'm by no means a dirt guru, but maybe these tips will work for others.  I find that every time I go out I learn more, and that it seems like a pretty natural progression.  I hear guys talk about applying throttle and brake when airborne to control trajectory, but I'm not even remotely in that league yet.  The great part is that I'm still really having a LOT of fun!  I should have gotten into dirt a long time ago.

Oh, and one other thing:  Get a little bike like a KLX110 if you can.  Not only are they hugely fun in that 'I'm a dork and out enjoying myself, who cares what you think' kind of way, but they also teach you a lot about throttle control and bike manipulation.  Besides, the kids love 'em!  I swear my son's KLX110 is just as powerful as my TTR-125 (though not nearly as plush or well-fitting).  Barring a bike as small as a KLX110, I'd look at the 'trail bikes' like the TT-R125 (and similar) since they're LOTS of fun for not much money, and small enough that you aren't intimidated by the bike's ungainly height (allowing you to focus on technique, not wrestling the beast).  I'm amazed at how much better a rider I've become after spending time in the dirt on my little knockaround bikes.

[Johnny Monsoon]

Ooo - that's what I want to learn to do. I did it once on the GS, but I'm sure it would have been more fun if I had actually meant to do it  

Load, then unload the suspension as you apply a little throttle.  That reduces the rear tire's grip and will allow it to start to spin under throttle.  Combine that with a heavy lean in whatever direction you want to go, and bingo!

[R.Markus]

Seat time!!Seat time!!!!!

That's the key to riding well no matter what the discipline.Come ride with me for a weekend.You'll be sore and beat up.Your bike may have some wear and tear but the smile will be difficult to remove from your face.Trial by fire.

Also, a good dirt school will do wonders. I took one this year and it was amazing how much you can learn in a single day.



Learning up hill technique (on an easy hill)


...and down hill...


a lot of crashing....also known as learning what not to do.




Time for a break on the afternoon trail ride, where we put all the things we learn into crashing...I mean practice.



One day of training will set you on the right path.

[iceman]

I know that the last thing anyone wants is to crash, but I've heard very little on technique for when you do crash. I learned a long time ago that injury can be minimized if you know how to crash.

Everyone that has watched a motorcycle race has seen riders wreck. Notice how most of them are able to slide to a stop and then walk away? Whereas if they roll and flail their arms and legs, get a medic. Watch stunt riders crash in movies, almost always see them with their arms tucked in, chin to their chest and legs together.

I crashed a lot when I first started dirt riding. Knowing little things like "not putting your hand down" to catch yourself when you crash can prevent a broken wrist or forearm. It's instinct to put your hand down when you fall, but not the way to do it. Better to land on your side with your arm stretched out, known as a break-fall in judo. Using a "front roll" has saved my life many times. Of course there are times when you do everything right and still end up injured.

Remember, it's not natural to crash. Practicing the proper technique when you do crash can save a trip to the ER.

[hig4s]

Please explain more.  I when I think of braking, you want maximum stopping force out of both tires.  Even though you are on a limited traction surface and at an incline, you will want to get the most stoping force out of the tires you can.  You will use some brake from both tires, just don't endo the bike.  At least this is how I have always thought of it, am I missing something?  

David

Let me put it this way: on dirt, if the hill is gentle enough you can use the front brake without having to worry about flipping over forward, I don't consider it a "downhill".

[mtrider16]

Let me put it this way: on dirt, if the hill is gentle enough you can use the front brake without having to worry about flipping over forward, I don't consider it a "downhill".

Thanks for the explaination.

[ST NUT]

Lots of good stuff here.  I don't take my big Strom offroad, but I do take it onto some dirt/mud/gravel roads where 1st and 2nd gear are the ONLY gears.  A couple of things nobody said yet--  

First, look ahead to plan ahead.  Don't concentrate on your front wheel.

Second, just like street riding, look where you want to go.  If you see a big nasty rut and then keep looking at it, well, then, you're gonna be in it.  Same goes for that big nasty rock.  Don't look at it unless you want to hit it.

And as others have said, on loose gravel you need to keep the front wheel light so it won't dig in.  Keep your weight back and use the throttle.

I, too, subscribe to the school of hanging your butt out to the outside of the turn while you countersteer the bike to the inside.  I'm talking slow speed stuff here.  At 10mph, if you lean your body to the inside while you lean the bike to the inside, you fall over (think parking lot).  That's because there's not enough centrifugal force or gyroscopic force at that speed to hold you up.  Unless of course it's a bermed corner, which is a different matter altogether.

[SWriverstone]

Thanks for the offer Mike—I might take you up on that! (And I agree—the way to get good at anything is to do it, not talk about it...but talking helps get my head straight before actually doing it!  ) But there's one thing I'd love to discuss more. People have touched on it, but also sort of "glossed over" it: the differences between a BIG dual-sport (KLR, GS1150, V-Strom, etc.) and nimble little 300lb dirt bikes.

Has anyone out there ever actually seen someone on a GS or KLR just rip up totally gnarly single-track (e.g. climb up and over boulders, race up near-vertical hills, bound over 3-foot-high logs, etc.)? I mean, that extra 150+ pounds makes a BIG difference!

I guess what I'm wondering is...is there a real limit to what we should even try on a KLR or GS? Some people have said keep the big DS bikes on fire roads (and so far that's about all I've done). Is that just wimping out due to bad (or no) technique? Or would even skilled dirtbikers (Mike?) hesitate to take a 450lb bike down a gnarly trail? I mean, you don't just grab those bikes and yank 'em back up like a little dirt bike! LOL

Scott

[T.RexRacing]

300 pound dirtbikes?????!!!!!!!What a porker!My CRF450 weighs in at 230 or so.Scott you'd be surprised where the Tuono has been.You'll need to change the approach but I'd take just about anything with decent suspension off road.The CRF is a no compromise MX bike but can be ridden on singletrack all day long,or at least 'til the fuel level becomes critical.You have to run pretty fast 'cause the suspension is set up for the big hits or it'll beat you to death.I have a '80 YZ465 you can ride if your insurance is paid up to date.Nice cushy boingers and BIG BORE 2-stroke single torque.It's a better trail bike than you'd think.Scott lemme get the CRF done (top end time) and we can go fer a ride one Sunday.I'll teach you to climb big hills and run through the woods on the KLR.Maybe mid January will be good.Or I'll go old school and ride the YZ it deserves some seat time.And I need to remember how far I've come.

[hig4s]

Has anyone out there ever actually seen someone on a GS or KLR just rip up totally gnarly single-track (e.g. climb up and over boulders, race up near-vertical hills, bound over 3-foot-high logs, etc.)? I mean, that extra 150+ pounds makes a BIG difference!

I guess what I'm wondering is...is there a real limit to what we should even try on a KLR or GS? Some people have said keep the big DS bikes on fire roads (and so far that's about all I've done). Is that just wimping out due to bad (or no) technique? Or would even skilled dirtbikers (Mike?) hesitate to take a 450lb bike down a gnarly trail? I mean, you don't just grab those bikes and yank 'em back up like a little dirt bike! LOL

Scott

Obviously it is more about rider ability than the bike as long as the bike is dirt capable.. KLRs and GSs while big and heavy are capable of going almost anywhere the smaller bikes can go with a good enough rider.. Provided it is a trail that can be taken slowly. Jumping creek beds and big hill climbs that require hitting them with a certian amount of speed are not recommended for the bigger dual sports.

300 pound dirtbikes?????!!!!!!!What a porker!My CRF450 weighs in at 230 or so.

What a Porker!! my KTM250SX weighs in at 208.

One last tip, anytime you feel like you need to put your feet down, stand up on the pegs. Unless you are planning to stop, your feet should not be on the ground.

[T.RexRacing]

my KTM250SX weighs in at 208

Try putting some fuel,oil and coolant in it.

[Windblown]

I'm a bit (ok a lot) out of element here but it would seem to me that unless you're trying to win a race that weight of a big bike doesn't really matter.... Until you either run out of suspension or screw up.  

[Johnny Monsoon]

I'm a bit (ok a lot) out of element here but it would seem to me that unless you're trying to win a race that weight of a big bike doesn't really matter.... Until you either run out of suspension or screw up.  

Pitching a bike around on a trail will get you concerned with the weight very quickly.  Consider that the weight of the bike can really overwhelm the suspension on rutty stuff.  Changing direction in softer s tuff also becomes a serious issue with increased weights.  It is one of those things you have to experience to appreciate.  Also, don't forget that the offroad world happens in 3D.  That is, you are constantly taking the rises and drops in the trail into account, and you're also having to loft your front wheel over obsticles, and sometimes 'hop' your bike into the correct angle.

[hig4s]

Try putting some fuel,oil and coolant in it.

That is with oil and coolant, but not fuel.. Super light bike..light as my son's 96 YZ125, almost as light My old 99 husqvarna CR125 which weighed in at 198lbs wet, no fuel.

I keep thinking I'd like to add a dual-sport to my garage, but I'm so spoiled by these super light 2-stroke MX machines.

[T.RexRacing]

I was just screwing with ya.HOWEVER if you add 2 gallons of fuel at 6 per you're up to 220.And you've got uhmm..........35 horsepower?So we're at 6.3 lbs. per HP.Ok I'm 232 at full up with 51 dyno'd hp.That's 4.5 lbs per HP.I'll stay happy.

[hig4s]

Actually the 03 KTM 250SX dynos at 49.0hp at 9000 RPMs.  putting my bike at 4.4lbs per HP!!!  

This is from the FMF dyno of the stock bike while they were trying to build aftermarket pipes (they actually supply the stock pipe for KTMs). And all aftermarket pipes out for this bike produce less HP than stock (around 46hp) but produce a wider power band.

putting my bike at 4.4lbs per HP!!!  

But I'll admit that 49.0hp is not really useable, to sharp,, May switch to an aftermarket to make it more trail friendly.

And the highest numbers I've seen for a CRF450 are 49.9hp with a stock pipe.. But some aftermarket pipes with push it to 53hp. Allwith a good broad power curve, like most 4-strokes. But what can I say, I just like 2-strokes.  

If I was to switch to a 450 4-stroke it would be a hard decision.. The KTMs are eaiser to repair, and have adjustable valves so you don't have to pull the cams to adjust valves, Hondas have the most durable engine, and Yamahas seem to have the best suspension.

[T.RexRacing]

Ooops.Shoulda paid attention.   Thought you were riding a F model.Nevermind.My CRF is tweaked a bit.High compression piston,+11OZ flywheel,JD jet kit,Thunder Alley handmade exhaust and a generous dose of VP U4.I've seen 54 with it but it's tough to ride like that.Trouble comes quickly at those velocities.

[forester]

• techniques for riding down steep hills
• techniques for riding up steep hills
• techniques for jumping over obstacles (logs, curbs, boulders, whatever)
• techniques for cornering on loose gravel and dirt

Though some people may have real dirtbikes, I think more of us are probably dual-sporters—so it would be helpful if techniques were geared toward 400-500lb bikes!

And to any V-Strom / 1150GS / F650 / KTM950 / KLR owners (and similar bikes)...if you've ever done any hardcore gnarly single-track trail riding on your BIG dual-sport, tell us about it! I'd love to hear about experiences on these bikes. (Again, I say BIG bikes because in my opinion, taking a light little dirtbike down a trail versus a KLR or GS are TOTALLY different experiences! LOL)
PS - I already have several good sportbiking technique books—can people recommend some good offroad riding books? (With a focus on technique more than tricking out bikes.)

O.K.  My 2 cents with riding the V-strom down a singletrack: Don't.  Why?  With single tracks around here (as in public land - purpose- single tracks), I'd run out of clearance too fast.  Small stones (12" dia. and smaller) would destroy the whimpy crash guard I have on that bike.

In fact, one weld on it is already busted and I am sincerely careful with this bike (it's a "working" bike).

I can and have taken the V-strom on part of my own singletrack (the one that's on my acreage), but this singletrack isn't built for straight up dirt bikes, and I slid off a 2 x 12 over a stream crossing that was tough work to get the heavy lug back on the trail.  Another spot was about 1/4 mile back where I moved some trees around with an old work truck and created some rutting in some soft clay soil previously.  Those tires slide all over the place on that soft clay.  It's tough carting around a machine that is approaching 500# including fluids, farkles and gear.  MUCH tougher than the typical dirt bike or even dual purpose that is half that weight or less.  

Clearance is NOT a problem that you'd have with the KLR.  When I rode the state's (DNR's) Honda XL250 (I think that's what it was), I didn't have a single problem with the nasty singletrack next to my jobsite - and I do not think you would have a problem with the KLR.  Off road; lighter=better.  No question.  The KLR is heavier, but it works a LOT more like a dirtbike compared to the 'strom.

Another thing that bites the bag with the 'strom is the lack of serious off-road meats.  You can mount Conti TKCs, which are farily serious knobs, but why bother?  This is a big trailie, not a machine that works it's best with knobbies.  My next set will be Metz. Tourance - and as the name suggests, they're not meant for the trail.

I've had this V-strom on everything (including blow sand) and it works great for me running on mostly pavement, with a good bit of gravel and forest roads (two tracks, or firelanes), some sand and some quad trails.  Up and down hills is not a problem if you have enough traction - again depends on the soil with the death wings - if it's clay soil, I park it and start walking but if it's a nice sandy loam it will make it up there.  Down hill, same thing.

These other guys have got the techniques covered.  The only one I would add is that if you've got a heavy-ass bike (like the 'strom or a GS), you'll have to dismount and use the throttle and clutch while you're off the bike to get it out of some places.  That's tricky, and by no means safe - but it is effective, and also something that I can't think of a reason to do with the smaller bikes (seeing as how you can lift those bikes out).

The 'stroms limitations are it's rubber and ground clearance.  I think a lot of people would be suprised what it could do off-road, but I think the primary target for that bike is really limited to light-off roading.  I wouldn't recommend taking it in muddy holes without knobbies on it!  

 

The stock trailwings (which are wholly different than the deathwings that come on the KLR) are not up to the task of even dirt roads with sand on them.  


Edited to add that I can and have jumped logs with this bike.  I think the largest I've hopped over is about a 6" maple pole - remembering to be very careful of the 5" ground clearance or so with the bike.  This one will rocket up in the air (both ends) fairly well - nicely balanced and FUN!

[black hills]

I'm a bit (ok a lot) out of element here but it would seem to me that unless you're trying to win a race that weight of a big bike doesn't really matter.... Until you either run out of suspension or screw up.  

Hit the trails for a couple days. One day on a 300+lb. bike, the next on a 220lb. bike. the difference will become painfully obvious.

[R.Markus]

I'm a bit (ok a lot) out of element here but it would seem to me that unless you're trying to win a race that weight of a big bike doesn't really matter.... Until you either run out of suspension or screw up.  

You would be wrong with that assumption. Weight on the street doesn't mean anything because you're pretty much letting the bike do all the work. In the dirt you push the bike around and are manually manipulating it a lot more, hence a heavier bike will wear you out a lot faster than a lighter one. You would notice the difference very quickly if you rode a couple different weight bikes off road back to back.

[hig4s]

Hit the trails for a couple days. One day on a 300+lb. bike, the next on a 220lb. bike. the difference will become painfully obvious.

And let me attest, from personally experience, the older you get the more painfully obvious it becomes.  

[Memphis675]

I have ridden on the street for 14 years and just decided to try out trail riding.  I took the off road MSF course from http://www.arkansasrider.com/dbs.html in Hot Springs, AR this past week.  What a fantastic day spent learning the basics.  To add to what most people have said in this string so far, I have one more useful tip for other beginners.  We were taught to use our clutch more than we do on the street.  I rarely slip the clutch on my streetbikes and almost never intentionally.  Offroad, they told us to hold the throttle open to 1/4 or 1/2 position then use the friction zone of your clutch to apply power in slippery conditions.  I was borrowing a friend's 98 CR125 2 stroke and found that modulating power on steep uphill climbs of 1-2 stories was a lot easier using this clutching technique.  During the school on the CRF230s this was very easy to do and really improved smoothness and precision in tight steering drills.

The balancing on the footpegs is counter intuitive for street riders like me.  Our instructors called it "counter balancing," with the goal to keep your body perpendicular to the horizon always.  Traversing hills, climbing, descending.  Always may be unrealistic but drills home the technique.  They sometimes said to weight the inside peg and sometimes the outside peg (I cannot keep straight when to do each), but keeping your weight on the pegs and using your legs a lot more than you do on the street to push into the bike go hand in hand.  This skill is relevant for climbs and descents as well since you may be hitting a hill at an angle and need to balance yourself there.  

Scooting forward on the seat was difficult for me as well, but after a lot of practice made me realise I was closer to the turning point of the bike, unweighting the rear to better control steering input with the rear wheel.  Keeping head above the handlebar and arms loose saved me from all slides I got into.  

I highly recommend the basic offroad riding school like the one I attended.  $75 for the day on someone else's bike learning skills that can be applied to a wide range of riding circumstances is tremendous.  

[Windblown]

Hit the trails for a couple days. One day on a 300+lb. bike, the next on a 220lb. bike. the difference will become painfully obvious.

I guess the reality is that riding in dirt is always a matter of getting out of shape and correcting then. Hell, I thought it was just my piss poor riding skills.  

I know a lil'about heavy dirtbikes. My first was a 70's vintage Honda 350 4-stroke, she was an unforgiving beast and I was much younger and stronger in those days.

[black hills]

I guess the reality is that riding in dirt is always a matter of getting out of shape and correcting then. Hell, I thought it was just my piss poor riding skills.  

I know a lil'about heavy dirtbikes. My first was a 70's vintage Honda 350 4-stroke, she was an unforgiving beast and I was much younger and stronger in those days.

LOL... I know what you are talking about. My first "real" dirtbike was an'87 XR600. What a pig in the woods. We would ride 120+ miles of trails a day too!!! Obvioulsy I was in a lot better shape 20 years ago! The KTM is so nice and easy to ride, I don't think I could ride anything heavier these days.

[NJFJR]

SW, after reading all the responses, I believe you've got it covered.
Keep the butt as far back as possible on the downhills while feathering BOTH brakes in the lowest gear you're comfortable with.
ALWAYS weight the outside peg in turns. This helps to bring your body's centerline more closely to the machine's, helping keep traction. The same will apply on off-camber trails.
Most important is to stand as much as possible while keeping your weight centered on the bike, and LOOK AHEAD! Look where you want to go, and not at the tree you're about to hit!  


This pic was taken of me jumping into a 5 foot deep creek bed loaded with rocks....3rd gear, wide open.