Leather vs textile

[gtmg]

Doing a hard evaluation of what I should be wearing to be safe. I am taking a hard look at a Roadcrafter and the Olympia Phantom, but in the back of mind I know leather is safer. Some of the concerns are holes in the textiles during the accident or protective pad movement. Am I worried about nothing? Is anybody wearing leather .... not talking about 1 piece suits now but a good jacket and pants for touring. I am thinking of the more traditional look like the First Gear Scout IV and the matching touring pants.... could be any vendor like Vanson. If you wear leather what do you wear in the summer? I live in the south where it is very humid. I assume that everyone with leather carrys a rainsuit with them?? thanks for the input?

[servicerifle]

I switched to leather in February, I think.  I can wear the perf jacket down to the 30's with a Gerbing liner.  It is a little too warm in the dead of summer, though.  I'd say you can get a good 9 months out of a 2 piece leather set if you live in the south.  One of the benefits of leather is how comfortable it is once it's broken in. Far more comfy than any textile I've ever felt.  

I have carried a rain jacket with me, and pants, but with fairings you rarely need the pants...just the jacket.  Of course, I've been caught where I didn't want to stop to put the rain jacket on, but it was raining so hard that my leather jacket got SOAKED.  Luckily good leather can take that with aplomb.  It will dry out in about a day, but you can ride with it wet, it's no big deal.

Basically, with exception of the very hottest and very coldest days, I think leather is the best for street motorcycling, incuding touring.  

[Johnny Monsoon]

I very recently went leather, however still retain my textile gear.  I am not convinced that leather is any safer than textile until you start doing a lot of sliding (and folks generally leave the road quickly after a getoff).

I have mesh, more traditional 'ballistic' kevlar, and leather.  I think I'm getting away from the mesh entirely.  While it does a great job of keeping you cool, and certainly will help if you and your bike part ways, it is too difficult to expect it to avoid moving/rolling on your person; the material is just very flexible and would have to be very fitted to avoid this situation.  I very recently lived through just that event.  The jacket rolled at the forearm and the mesh took all the abrasion while the padding that was supposed to protect me rolled nicely out of harm's way.

I still have my JR Ballistic 2.0 jacket and pants.  For commuting, this is what I'll be wearing; especially in foul weather.  A good, solid, high-thread-count ballistic is going to be very good and can be constructed lighter than leather to allow for the garment to be made in such a way that it can fail to roll on your person without being too tight.  That's a product of how you lay the fabric; an option you can't exercise with leather.  My Ballistic gear is getting a bit long in the tooth, and I've seen some nicer offerings that look like they'd do a better job yet; I wouldn't hesitate to get one with leather patchwork over the abrasion points which will give you the best of both worlds.  Textiles are far easier to care for, have a longer natural life, and are more versatile than leather.

So, why did *I* go leather?  In the past, it seems like you either got great armor in textile but worried for its abrasion resistance, or you got great abrasion resistance buying leather but they'd skimp on the armor and cost at least a hundred bucks more.  For street riding, I believe armor is where it is at; you have a much greater likelihood of encountering another solid object on the road, and abrasion resistance becomes a secondary consideration.  When I went shopping for a replacement for my ruined mesh jacket, I looked at textiles.  I also looked at the leathers.  I finally started seeing offerings of leather jackets, of quality leather in appropriate weights that actually had very good armor and were equal to (and in some cases less than) what the well made textiles were costing.  When I tried at least two jackets on, I found they used someone who must have been nearly identical in dimension to me; so I essentially got a custom fit jacket right off the rack.  

The down side is that you must maintain leather.  It has a finite life; it is a natural product that has been harvested and who's protective qualities will degrade over time (just like safety glasses).  Exposure to extreme environments will accelerate the degradation of the garments, and so will rain and improper storage.  However, if you're willing to understand these things, and plan to replace them (most of us do this eventually anyway simply because we want something new) then you're going to be just fine with a leather purchase.  

Leather is hotter, and heavier but in most cases I think that if you're able to find a good jacket that fits well, it will likely provide better protection when it comes to staying put on your body.  Just make sure the armor is rated well, and don't get too caught up on brand names.  Cows don't care where their hides go.  Try jackets on and do a lot of tugging at them to ensure they're fitted well.  We all know the mantra for fitting helmets, yet few think much about how a jacket fits; most only care how it looks.

[traveler]

I own both types (Aerostich Roadcrafter 2-pc, Firstgear textile and mesh jackets and pants, Firstgear 1-pc leather suit, with zipper vents front and rear. Firstgear textile gear has upgraded armor, except for flimsy backpad.

Most of the time, at least for multiple day rides, I use and feel safe in the 'stich (with hip pads). I purposefully bought the suit snug fitting, so armor shift isn't a problem (though layering is).

Hot weather forces me to use the mesh around town and sometimes on day rides.

My leather rarely gets used, except for day rides during spring or fall, as it is too hot in summer (insufficient venting) and, being a 1-pc, a bit problematic for pit stops, if you know what I mean. It is very snug fitting and much like a true racing suit. I now wish I had purchased a 2-pc suit with full circumference zipper, as I would probably use it more frequently.

The recent addition of a Joe Rocket (Forcefield) back protector, which I can use in combination with any of my gear, gives me a bit more protection.

I am a satified user of all the above gear, though the mesh jacket could be a bit tighter fitting (arms), to minimize armor shifting. Also I am ATGATT (without exception, though that wasn't always the case, I started riding in 1970) so am a proponent of multiple types of gear to fit the occasion or weather.

As for trusting the gear, I feel most confident in the leather and the 'stich, much less so in the textile mesh stuff. But some protection is always better than none. If wearing textile, I recommend also wearing jeans and long sleeve shirt under them, for a bit more protection, without too much more discomfort.

Works for me, so far.

[ST-DocLizard1]

Textiles for me. No more raingear. Period!

Nuf said.

Doc

[jeremy556]

Just make sure the armor is rated well, and don't get too caught up on brand names.  Cows don't care where their hides go.

There are vast differences between brands of leather gear. Much of the difference is not in the leather itself, but the design, stitching, and other factors.

[RexRider]

Good quality leather gear for pretty much everything, other than colder and/or wet (a goodly part of the year, hear in Seattle...   ) riding.  When it's dark and rainy, those uber-bright textile colors (not often found in leather) can seriously help your visibility (just bought a neon lime-yellow Olympia Phantom suit for my winter commuting) to the cagers.  

[Johnny Monsoon]

There are vast differences between brands of leather gear. Much of the difference is not in the leather itself, but the design, stitching, and other factors.

Just yesterday I was down in the Old Market.  We stopped into a moto-gear place and I was looking around at some jackets with Salie.  There were plenty of jackets from various manufacturers, but one jacket that was clearly of POOR quality leather, extremely dry, lousy stitching, and would fare far WORSE than a mesh jacket was one of the most expensive ones:  Alpinestars.  Not only were other jackets of far superior design, leather quality and weight, but they were also sporting better armor and were less expensive.  Proved once again that you look at each garment individually, don't just buy a name.

[jeremy556]

Just yesterday I was down in the Old Market.  We stopped into a moto-gear place and I was looking around at some jackets with Salie.  There were plenty of jackets from various manufacturers, but one jacket that was clearly of POOR quality leather, extremely dry, lousy stitching, and would fare far WORSE than a mesh jacket was one of the most expensive ones:  Alpinestars.  Not only were other jackets of far superior design, leather quality and weight, but they were also sporting better armor and were less expensive.  Proved once again that you look at each garment individually, don't just buy a name.

OK, if you are just talking about the stuff you might find in a store, I'll agree. Most of the leathers available from the popular manufacturers are good for maybe 1-2 crashes tops. If you want the good stuff you have to order it, and it is generally 2+ times the cost, but will survive crash after crash with minimal repairs.

[Marin Phil]

First, yes, leather is natural-but dead natural.  So, you must "treat" it at least every couple of months-to maintain softness and water-resistance.  No leather is really waterproof-even the new BMW stuff-for full h2o proof you gotta use the gore-tex liner.  Why do Superbike and MotoGP wear leathers.  Leather will slow you down really fast-getting back into the race as opposed to high melting point textile-which will slide much farther.  Those boys want to remount and get back into the race.  There are a few textile one-piece suits that are track rated.  If you are going 2-piece-leather or textile-again high melting point stuff-there should be a way to connect the top and bottom.  You don't want the jacket, or pants for that matter, to ride up/down while you are going for the wild ride.
I am a bit of a jacket hoe, with many textile, textile/gortex membrane-quality stuff.  I also use leather jackets.  On the long trips its textile jacket and pants-both with goretex and armor.  I don't stop for the rain or cold. + and - for both.  N yes, i sometimes ride in jeans-steel J Rocket ones.   Helmet, gloves and rider boots are nonnegotiable.  JMHO...

[ryanr256]

Doing a hard evaluation of what I should be wearing to be safe. I am taking a hard look at a Roadcrafter and the Olympia Phantom, but in the back of mind I know leather is safer. Some of the concerns are holes in the textiles during the accident or protective pad movement. Am I worried about nothing? Is anybody wearing leather .... not talking about 1 piece suits now but a good jacket and pants for touring. I am thinking of the more traditional look like the First Gear Scout IV and the matching touring pants.... could be any vendor like Vanson. If you wear leather what do you wear in the summer? I live in the south where it is very humid. I assume that everyone with leather carrys a rainsuit with them?? thanks for the input?

My gear consists of a Vanson Lightning jacket, Vanson Traveler pants, Vanson Rocket gloves, Chippewa Rally boots.

All leather.

Yes, I'm a Vanson whore.

The jacket and pants are perfed and I do actually own a mesh jacket, but 99% of the time I'm in leather. It took a while for the jacket and pants to break in and being a motorcycle cut the jacket is a bit uncomfortable off the bike. But on the bike I've got no issues. Both the jacket and pants have an adjustable waist which gives room for growth or can accomodate weight loss.

I carry a rain suit.

I'm not an ultra high mileage tourer, but even if I were I'd be in leather. I don't find it too uncomfortable in the hot and humid days of summer here.

-Bob

[Johnny Monsoon]

...but will survive crash after crash with minimal repairs.

No, it won't.  That's a myth about leather.  Once you split the top grain open, you essentially ruin it.  You can replace a panel if you have room to avoid re-stitching in the previously stitched areas and also have enough room to re-roll those stitching areas.  Otherwise you'll have a very unreliable garment.

There's no difference between the leathers a company uses to ship off and the leather quality they use for custom stuff; it all rolls off the same drums.  

Been in leather working for the last quarter of a century; I've heard a lot of the snake oil folks like to toss around concerning leather.

Marin Phil is exactly right with the 'dead natural' comment, and likewise with the necessity of treatments (and properly storing, etc.) of those products.  They are not as convenient as textiles, but it is true they do offer some benefits textiles don't.  You must decide how much work you are willing to put into your gear.  For some, leather may be entirely inappropriate while for others it is the only suitable option.

[jeremy556]

No, it won't.  That's a myth about leather.  Once you split the top grain open, you essentially ruin it.  You can replace a panel if you have room to avoid re-stitching in the previously stitched areas and also have enough room to re-roll those stitching areas.  Otherwise you'll have a very unreliable garment.

There's no difference between the leathers a company uses to ship off and the leather quality they use for custom stuff; it all rolls off the same drums.  

Been in leather working for the last quarter of a century; I've heard a lot of the snake oil folks like to toss around concerning leather.

Marin Phil is exactly right with the 'dead natural' comment, and likewise with the necessity of treatments (and properly storing, etc.) of those products.  They are not as convenient as textiles, but it is true they do offer some benefits textiles don't.  You must decide how much work you are willing to put into your gear.  For some, leather may be entirely inappropriate while for others it is the only suitable option.

Hang around the pits in racing for a while and you will see the A*s, MotoGP, etc leathers get thrown away after each crash when they come apart and the Vanson, Syed, Barnacle Bill leathers get reused for many years and dozens and dozens of crashes.

I have had cheap leathers that I threw away after each crash. My current Syed suit has survived a number of worse crashes with only a bit of restitching and a couple of patches.

[highside]

I use both. I wear leather if I have a reasonable expectation that the weather isnt going to turn to absolute crap while i am riding. In Seattle that pretty much means that I wear textile in the winter for any ride that lasts for more than an hour or so.  I greatly prefer leather as I find it more comfortable, but it isn't great in extreme rain or cold.

[Johnny Monsoon]

Hang around the pits in racing for a while and you will see the A*s, MotoGP, etc leathers get thrown away after each crash when they come apart and the Vanson, Syed, Barnacle Bill leathers get reused for many years and dozens and dozens of crashes.

I have had cheap leathers that I threw away after each crash. My current Syed suit has survived a number of worse crashes with only a bit of restitching and a couple of patches.

Cows is cows bro.  However I'll say you're correct if you're speaking only on terms of the grade of leather and thickness.  You *could* get thin, low-grain leather, I suppose, but that's easy to identify.  You can't simply assume that ANY manufacturer will make a good garment (especially with even big brand names actually being made in Taiwan, China, etc.).  

At the end of the day, a good inspection of your potential garment is going to be required.  Good leather is like porn, tough to talk about and describe but recognized instantly once seen.

[Boone]

Sorry for being the guy that is posting without reading the thread, but don't count out Motoport's Kevlar offerings.  The guy there (forgot his name) will work with you to get your EXACT measurements so that he can make a product that is custom fit specifically for you.  I have a pair of the stretch kevlar pants, which are awesome for touring (except on the hottest days - you might want the kevlar-mesh for those).

The downside is that they take a little while to produce - however, get your order in now and they'll be ready way before spring.

[WBill]

One nice thing about a good leather jacket is that it looks better for when you're not riding.  My textile togs are pretty bulky with their armor, and I tend to leave them on the rack unless I'm riding.  My leather jacket is from Fox Creek.  It's a quality garment, with thick hide, and has vents for warm weather.

[JonS]

Leather is my first choice, but for cold and/or wet, textile is better. I really don't see a hard and fast rule on which is better. As far as longevity is concerned, leather wins. My 25 year old Fieldshear leather jacket is still good and fits better than ever. If it had modern armor I would wear it regularly. As it is, my leather is AGV. The pants and jacket zip together, full circumference. Good stuff!

[RickC1957]

Hmmm I was touring CO/UT/AZ this summer...in Page, AZ it was 110....I was wearing full leathers....only place I was hot...was at gas stops...and the back of my right calf...in the afternoon...the sun was beating down and it felt like my calf was roasting on the pipe. I'll wear leathers until it drops under 40 degrees. I know leathers are way safer than any textile.

[Ant]

Leathers are far more comfortable than textile once they are broken in]. I bought my first set of leathers (2 piece) and my first thought was "oh god what have I bought". Once they've softened up though they are great.
As for safety I'm not qualified to answer that question but my mind tells me that leather is better
Heat isn't a problem until you're sat cooking in stationary traffic or you get off the bike to get petrol or something, as long as there is air flow then you ought to be fine. In colder weather I've started wearing my rain suit, not because it is raining but just because it is a good wind break and that is the primary cause of being cold (well it is for me anyway). YMMV of course.


Plus leather looks cooler  

[Johnny Monsoon]

Couple of more things about leather:

When it is comfortable it has established tear lines.  Those are weak points.

The older it gets, the less capable it is to protect you.  Leather has a finite lifespan despite how it may appear; lots of items can look brand new but shred like paper when put to the test.  I would never ride in a leather garment of 10+ years regardless of its appearance.  

Leather is less effective when waterlogged.

After being waterlogged or absorbing a lot of sweat, leather degrades.  Sweat especially degrades leather due to the salts contained.

Any moisture that is absorbed by your leathers with subsequent freezing will rapidly deteriorate your leathers, yet give absolutely no outward signs of such.

Leather is great stuff, and highly effective, but people really need to realize that it is not a 'one time purchase'.  It has special requirements.

[WBill]

Let's not forget that textiles also degrade from long term exposure to sunlight (just like about anything else).  My old Tourmaster jacket, made mostly of heavy cordura, is definitely less durable than my newer one after thirty thousand + miles and three years.

[Johnny Monsoon]

Let's not forget that textiles also degrade from long term exposure to sunlight (just like about anything else).  My old Tourmaster jacket, made mostly of heavy cordura, is definitely less durable than my newer one after thirty thousand + miles and three years.

True, but the degradation to light, elements, and temperatures are far less pronounced with textiles; which is largely why you see extremely little leather being used in military applications anymore.  It simply doesn't survive nearly as well as textiles do.

[MidLifeMike]

Bright textiles don't mean jack in dark and rainy situations - IMNSHO.
I was wearing a safety yellow jacket in dark and rain while being followed by my buddy in a Jeep for an hour. Out of curiosity I asked what he saw of me. All his headlights picked out was the thin Scotchlite stripe against a background of total darkness. That sobered me up as to if the killer bee jacket was of any use at night.
During the day I have no doubt I make a good target.

[STI-51]

+1 for Motoport (Wayne is the owner's name).  Only textile gear allowed for racing at some tracks.  

The reasons why leather is mainly used for racing is 1) most tracks have not altered their rules to allow anything else, but some now allow Motoport as an exception and 2) abrasion resistance is the top concern at race tracks (vs. impact resistance for street riding) since there is plenty of runoff to avoid obstacles.  Historically, only leather offered the best abrasion resistance but that is no longer the case.

I cannot vouch for the validity of the data used in this report but it's an interesting read that compares the strengths of various materials.  The Motoport website uses the same report to advertise its gear.

http://www.ironbuttuk.org/id21.html

[jeremy556]

2) abrasion resistance is the top concern at race tracks (vs. impact resistance for street riding) since there is plenty of runoff to avoid obstacles.

No gear offers any real impact protection. If you hit a fixed object at much more than a running pace you are never going to be the same again (if you survive). The impact protection in gear helps to prevent minor injuries caused by a fall from standing height on to pavement, but is not going to help beyond that - including your helmet.

[ZED]

Most research that I've seen points that good leather has better abrasion resistance (needed for the track where speeds are high and stationary objects are few), but good textiles can have better armouring which is needed for commuting.

I wear leather on the track - I've tested it.  It works well.  
I wear textiles commuting - It's waaaay more convenient than the leather suit.
I wear textiles touring - I'll lose a bit more skin if I come off at speed, but I've got lots of armour and it's convenient.

[STI-51]

No gear offers any real impact protection.

Agreed, which is why I was stating leather is preferred at racetracks, for its ample abrasion resistance.  Impact resistance isn't the primary concern at tracks and in fact, some custom racing suits (i.e. Z Custom and Syed) don't even have provisions for armor (although that wouldn't be my preference). 

For the street, impact resistance is generally more important and thus armor and seam strength are key.  Since the seams are likely to degrade earlier on leather vs. textiles (of equal quality), especially after several wet cycles, my vote goes to proper textiles for the street (not to mention their superior weather flexibility).  I still have a soft spot for leather and do have a 2-piece leather suit, it just doesn’t get as much use anymore now that I have a Motoport 2-piece suit. 
 

[jeremy556]

some custom racing suits (i.e. Z Custom and Syed) don't even have provisions for armor (although that wouldn't be my preference).  

I have a custom Syed suit, and it has more (and better) impact protection than all of the mesh, textile, and leather street gear I have ever purchased.

It has padding (plus double or triple leather) in the hips, knees, elbows, shoulders, and back. It also has plastic armor in the elbows and back protector.

[STI-51]

Padding may be fine for the track but it is nowhere near as good as proper armor for impact protection.  Good armor will absorb and disperse the impact force over the area of the armor vs. staying solely at the point of contact.  Padding will not do this as effectively, if at all.

Also, plastic or hard armor is sometimes worse than having no armor at all since it in itself can cause injury.  Rather than absorb the energy like soft armor, it transfers it to the body.  Check out this link for a pretty god discussion on the topic:

http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcblip/prd-tpro.txt

[Baz]

I read a test on this very subject in the past couple of years which was done by one of the bike mags. They called it a draw.

Leather they say is used only on tracks because it does not generate friction heat as bad as most textiles. It is a fact that people who take long rides down the highway in one spot with textiles on, usually need to have melted  & fused fabric removed from their skin. Watch a GP race sometime & note the nice blue hue coming off the racers butt's as they skid down the track.

The Bike mag did say however that this probably would not be an issue for someone doing the speed limit & falling off on the highway.

[DogBoy]

I have a custom Syed suit, and it has more (and better) impact protection than all of the mesh, textile, and leather street gear I have ever purchased.

It has padding (plus double or triple leather) in the hips, knees, elbows, shoulders, and back. It also has plastic armor in the elbows and back protector.

Same for the Syed suit I used to own. It was fully armored.

STI-51, making statements that certain suits don't come with provision for armor and then ignoring it when you are corrected really hurts your credibility.

[STI-51]

Dogboy, not sure what you mean here, I did respond (Reply #29).  

Was questionning my credibility really appropriate?  

Edit: Also, if these suits come with armor, then ok.  It was my understanding that some of the custom leather options didn't come with armor.  My point wasn't to knock any of these companies for that but rather just point out why armor wasn't as important for the track vs. the street.  

Personally, if I was going the custom leather route, I would rather have armor like T-Pro than foam padding or hard plastic based on what I have read... although I'm sure testimonials will support ample protection on either case.

[DogBoy]

You said Syed didn't have any provisions for armor. Thats flat wrong. Where did you address your comment about those suits having provisions for armor?

[STI-51]

You said Syed didn't have any provisions for armor. Thats flat wrong. Where did you address your comment about those suits having provisions for armor?

Dogboy, see my Edit... I was actually going to purchase a Z-Custom suit some time ago and paid for the catalogue (they charge $10 for it).  Nowhere in the catalogue was there any mention of armor and at the time, I thought the same applied to Syed since I was looking at them too.  However, I just glimpsed at both websites which indicate armor is standard for both.  Was this always the case b/c that was one of the main reasons I opted not to buy either of those brands for street riding?  

[STI-51]

I read a test on this very subject in the past couple of years which was done by one of the bike mags. They called it a draw.

Leather they say is used only on tracks because it does not generate friction heat as bad as most textiles. It is a fact that people who take long rides down the highway in one spot with textiles on, usually need to have melted  & fused fabric removed from their skin. Watch a GP race sometime & note the nice blue hue coming off the racers butt's as they skid down the track.

The Bike mag did say however that this probably would not be an issue for someone doing the speed limit & falling off on the highway.

BAz, according to the Dupont info in the link I posted earlier (http://www.ironbuttuk.org/id21.html), this seems to be the case for companies that "coat their nylon with a layer of polyurethane that under heavy pavement friction can melt into your skin."  

With respect to their Kevlar, they claim that "It slides on pavement the same way as leather and dissipates friction heat better than leather."

Do you know whether the use or non-use of of polyurethane was a factor in the tests you read?  

[tomek]

Race track-leathers and yes not all of them are created equal.There is a huge difference between some bottom suits like JR and top of the line or custom suits.Good ones will survive couple of crashes.
Custom suits are preferable if you can`t fit in standard suized,or basically you are too fat,at least 95 % of guys with Vansons,etc are.

Street-textile.I`m aware of compromises but I don`t like the weight of leathers on my arms plus there is no leather versions of Stich or Phantom.Plus I don`t go 170 on public roads,,,,,,,,,often.

Leather slides better,,,,,,less friction and therefore heat,,,,,,,,,shit won`t melt into your skin,,,,,

[jeremy556]

Custom suits are preferable if you can`t fit in standard suized,or basically you are too fat,at least 95 % of guys with Vansons,etc are.

Just for the record... 9% body fat, 6'3" 185 with a 36" inseam which is why I can't fit in normal leathers.  

[tomek]

Just for the record... 9% body fat, 6'3" 185 with a 36" inseam which is why I can't fit in normal leathers.  

Well,I did say 95%  , right ? Anyway, it is great looking suit.

[ZED]

Just for the record... 9% body fat, 6'3" 185 with a 36" inseam which is why I can't fit in normal leathers.  

Actually I was thinking it looks like the suit is a bit too loose on you.  In my crashes I've found that the snugger the fit of your gear (leather or textile) the less skin you loose from skidding inside your suit.

I think a good fit is very important and that people should get custom fit leathers if needed.  I'm lucky.   The AlpineStar suit fit me almost perfectly.  I'm 6'2" at 190lbs and fit a Euro size 44.

[jeremy556]

Actually I was thinking it looks like the suit is a bit too loose on you.  In my crashes I've found that the snugger the fit of your gear (leather or textile) the less skin you loose from skidding inside your suit.

Not sure why it looks a bit wrinkly in that picture, but it is a nominally snug fit. I had Syed do my measurements as they are not far away from my house. I have tested it out in a few high speed crashes on the track, and so far no abrasion injuries... just broken bones.

Well,I did say 95%  Razz, right ? Anyway, it is great looking suit.

Thanks!

[ZED]

Not sure why it looks a bit wrinkly in that picture, but it is a nominally snug fit. I had Syed do my measurements as they are not far away from my house. I have tested it out in a few high speed crashes on the track, and so far no abrasion injuries... just broken bones.

Well that sounds like it fits well, better than the picture then.  If it doesn't your skin quickly tells you.
Handy to have Syed that close.  

[canada goose]

I have been watching this thread with interest, because I've been having this debate with myself for sometime now. I started riding when the choices were leather or a Belstaff waxed cotton jacket. I always went with leather and although the quality was pretty good back then, armor was lacking. About 5 years ago I succumbed to the wide array of high-tech textiles that were appearing everywhere. I bought a decent all season suit and a mesh outfit for hot weather.

Occasionally, I get a faint whiff of wet dog smell when I'm not on the bike, and  sniffing and looking around and, I suddenly realize........it's me......and yes, I wash my gear periodically and shower every day. I get this from both sets of gear, especially when damp. I think it's inherent with textile gear and people become acclimatized and fail to notice it. Leathers; even old, grimy old ones, will always smell like leather unless they're soaking wet. Even after getting wet, the normal leather smell returns once dry.

In spite of this minor annoyance, I love my textile gear, but recently I've been feeling an urge to return to leather. I just took delivery of a Vanson CSR2 jacket and, oh-baby, even in it's new, stiff condition, this thing just feels so right on a motorcycle. Although it's hot when I'm sitting still, with the vents open, it flows air quite well when in motion. Without doing some crash testing, I can't really compare the protective merits of leather vs. textiles. I think the textiles are more versatile, and in many ways more practical, but just picking up a favorite leather jacket will inspire you to go for a ride. The textile gear just doesn't create that same feeling for me.

Now I'm trying to choose pants to go with the Vanson and I just can't decide. I'm even considering the Cycleport kevlar stuff!

Ken
         
 

[Johnny Monsoon]

Textiles Melting:

I'm gonna call false for normal conditions here.

I did my happy lowside at about 35mph.  I slid about as far as you possibly can without going down and traveling straight down the highway until you stop.  

I realized that I didn't have far to go, and wanted to keep the bike from flipping up and over, so I held on to it; which means I was getting dragged at a much more constant speed, and for a greater speed over the course of distance I traveled than I would have had I been separated from my bike.

My textile tore, as expected.  It also knotted and pulled, as it should have, and caused the tears to be contained.  I easily slid some 20+ feet, with one section of my gear down.  While the ill-fitting garment led to the armor moving around and leaving my textile shell on the ground between me and the concrete, it proved something important.  It did not melt.

The 'melt' issue, I truly believe, would only EVER be an issue if you had a getoff at high speeds on a very long straight (which isn't likely; most times you're most likely to getoff at a corner).  There simply isn't enough time to get it hot enough to actually melt; that takes a LOT of heat.  It is far more likely that you'll just be picking out bits of sheared fabric instead of dealing with a 'melt' situation.  I've put the 'melting textiles' squarely where it belongs:  The Urban Legend pile.

Now, here's something else to consider:  A getoff at most any speed wearing a good quality leather will tend to result in the leather grabbing at the road surface since it slows you more quickly; which means greater potential for flipping the rider around and causing a bunch of other different sort of injuries not related to abrasion.  Just watch some of the rather uneventful wrecks in pro racing that result in big flips.

I'd be happier to have a textile over a leather product, in retrospect, than a leather product over a textile one.  A leather garment with velcro points on the high abrasion points with a textile pad would be ideal, since you could save the leather in a minor getoff but still count on the abrasion resistance of the leather if needed.

[JonS]

Talk about it all you want, but leather will always be my choice if I'm planning to fall.
Seriously, I have both and I definitely think that leather will protect you better than textile. When I went down in my AGV stuff, all it did was scuff. Why do you think that racers use the stuff?
 So, are we going to talk about leather verse textile boots next?

[ZED]

...
So, are we going to talk about leather verse textile boots next?

Oh, now that would be a good poll!  

Something along the lines of "what kind of boots do you ride in?"
A.  Leather boots
B.  Textile boots
C.  Rubber boots
D.  Boots!?  I don't need no stinkin' boots!  I ride in flipflops!
 

[Baz]

Textiles Melting:

I'm gonna call false for normal conditions here.

I did my happy lowside at about 35mph.  I slid about as far as you possibly can without going down and traveling straight down the highway until you stop.  

I realized that I didn't have far to go, and wanted to keep the bike from flipping up and over, so I held on to it; which means I was getting dragged at a much more constant speed, and for a greater speed over the course of distance I traveled than I would have had I been separated from my bike.

My textile tore, as expected.  It also knotted and pulled, as it should have, and caused the tears to be contained.  I easily slid some 20+ feet, with one section of my gear down.  While the ill-fitting garment led to the armor moving around and leaving my textile shell on the ground between me and the concrete, it proved something important.  It did not melt.

The 'melt' issue, I truly believe, would only EVER be an issue if you had a getoff at high speeds on a very long straight (which isn't likely; most times you're most likely to getoff at a corner).  There simply isn't enough time to get it hot enough to actually melt; that takes a LOT of heat.  It is far more likely that you'll just be picking out bits of sheared fabric instead of dealing with a 'melt' situation.  I've put the 'melting textiles' squarely where it belongs:  The Urban Legend pile.

Now, here's something else to consider:  A getoff at most any speed wearing a good quality leather will tend to result in the leather grabbing at the road surface since it slows you more quickly; which means greater potential for flipping the rider around and causing a bunch of other different sort of injuries not related to abrasion.  Just watch some of the rather uneventful wrecks in pro racing that result in big flips.

I'd be happier to have a textile over a leather product, in retrospect, than a leather product over a textile one.  A leather garment with velcro points on the high abrasion points with a textile pad would be ideal, since you could save the leather in a minor getoff but still count on the abrasion resistance of the leather if needed.

This is exactly what the study claimed... Textile melting would "probably" not be a problem for someone falling off at a posted speed limit.

I do have a video where a racer exited via a high side and was photographed skidding down the track at a very high rate of speed. You could actually see blue smoke coming off his leathers. (I wish I could post this) In that particular case, I would not have wanted to be wearing textiles.

Our local track here does allow textile suits, but no one gets up to any great speeds on this track.

[ZED]

You actually have a track up there Baz?  I thought our little loop down here was the only one around.
Or are you referring to some sort of go-kart track?

[Mostrogirl]

Textiles Melting:

My textile tore, as expected.  It also knotted and pulled, as it should have, and caused the tears to be contained.  I easily slid some 20+ feet, with one section of my gear down.  While the ill-fitting garment led to the armor moving around and leaving my textile shell on the ground between me and the concrete, it proved something important.  It did not melt.

The 'melt' issue, I truly believe, would only EVER be an issue if you had a getoff at high speeds on a very long straight (which isn't likely; most times you're most likely to getoff at a corner).  There simply isn't enough time to get it hot enough to actually melt; that takes a LOT of heat.  It is far more likely that you'll just be picking out bits of sheared fabric instead of dealing with a 'melt' situation.  I've put the 'melting textiles' squarely where it belongs:  The Urban Legend pile.

I disagree with the 'Melt' issue.  Last Sunday I went down cornering at 45 mph.  I had on Rev It textile pants and a Joe Rocket mesh/textile jacket.  The gear did what it was suppose to by protecting me from road rash.  However, the right side of my pants have several areas that are melted and I have large strawberries on my elbows from the heat.  The textiles are trash after one crash.

[STI-51]

I disagree with the 'Melt' issue.  Last Sunday I went down cornering at 45 mph.  I had on Rev It textile pants and a Joe Rocket mesh/textile jacket.  The gear did what it was suppose to by protecting me from road rash.  However, the right side of my pants have several areas that are melted and I have large strawberries on my elbows from the heat.  The textiles are trash after one crash.

I'm gonna have to be the cynic here and say, well, that could have been the problem.  Proper, quality textile gear should not melt onto the skin.

Also, the strawberries or rashes claimed by yourself and others here are generally not burns in the sense that something melted to your skin.  They are more likely due to the gear rubbing against the skin during said slide or crash, more akin to a rug burn type of irritation, not burned skin from something melting onto it.  This is especially common with ill-fitting gear, as there is more opportunity for the gear to shift around and rub against the skin.  Even with leathers one is not immune to such a 'burn' if not fitted properly.  

Furthermore, if the gear had actually melted onto the skin, it would have to be peeled off or surgically removed and would likely leave more damage than a rash.  Again, I believe such burns were more likely friction burns.

It could also be that the gear completely abraded, leaving the skin openly exposed to asphalt, causing the rash.

With today's technological advances, leather although great, is no longer No. 1 for protection.  My money goes with Dupont, Schoeller, etc. and their $billions of R&D vs. 10,000 + year-old technology.  

[Baz]

BAz, according to the Dupont info in the link I posted earlier (http://www.ironbuttuk.org/id21.html), this seems to be the case for companies that "coat their nylon with a layer of polyurethane that under heavy pavement friction can melt into your skin."  

With respect to their Kevlar, they claim that "It slides on pavement the same way as leather and dissipates friction heat better than leather."

Do you know whether the use or non-use of of polyurethane was a factor in the tests you read?  

Hey STI:

The test I read did not include any scientific content but just referred to textile burns as a general "it has happened" thing. Once again I stress that they did add a disclaimer that this would probably affect no one at street or highway speeds.

I do have 1st hand knowledge of both Nylon, Polyurethane & Polyester. (We use it in the products I sell) all have a melting point. I believe even Kevlar would have a melting point, and on that note, so would leather. (or at least a combustion point)

Now giving you my background with petrochemical fabrics, I just had an incident where heat dissipated a chemical that is widely used, and in theory could be used as a waterproofing treatment.

NIKWAX Lady......Please help us here. Does Nikwax contain Ply Vinyl Acetate?

The chemical is Poly Vinyl Acetate. We started using this on industrial (mostly Nylon) fabrics as a stiffening agent. (It would also work as a waterproofing agent as this is what caulking is made from). Anyway this chemical from a certain manufacturer was going to save the day for us, as it went on clear and really, you could not tell it was there. Well we found out that at 167 degrees, this stuff literally turned into gooey black balls (Think PV caulking fresh out of the tube, only at 167 degrees) Well if you had this on your jacket and heated it up to 167 degrees while you were sliding down the road, these little tar balls would have found their way to your skin. (it would not have been nice)

This could be what DuPont is talking about.

[hawkeyejohn14]

I have a Darian Coat and Pants, Vanson Perfed jacket a AGV perfed one piece and a new solid BMW ProRace Jacket and Pants coming and an old leather jacket from Yamaha. I like leather and a good rain suit. They all serve a purpose though. All Pads including back pads in all jackets and suits except my old Yamaha, just reinforced leather with some foam. It's 24 years old though and still in good shape due to treating with conditioner.