Leather vs textile

[jeremy556]

Actually I was thinking it looks like the suit is a bit too loose on you.  In my crashes I've found that the snugger the fit of your gear (leather or textile) the less skin you loose from skidding inside your suit.

Not sure why it looks a bit wrinkly in that picture, but it is a nominally snug fit. I had Syed do my measurements as they are not far away from my house. I have tested it out in a few high speed crashes on the track, and so far no abrasion injuries... just broken bones.

Well,I did say 95%  Razz, right ? Anyway, it is great looking suit.

Thanks!

[ZED]

Not sure why it looks a bit wrinkly in that picture, but it is a nominally snug fit. I had Syed do my measurements as they are not far away from my house. I have tested it out in a few high speed crashes on the track, and so far no abrasion injuries... just broken bones.

Well that sounds like it fits well, better than the picture then.  If it doesn't your skin quickly tells you.
Handy to have Syed that close.  

[canada goose]

I have been watching this thread with interest, because I've been having this debate with myself for sometime now. I started riding when the choices were leather or a Belstaff waxed cotton jacket. I always went with leather and although the quality was pretty good back then, armor was lacking. About 5 years ago I succumbed to the wide array of high-tech textiles that were appearing everywhere. I bought a decent all season suit and a mesh outfit for hot weather.

Occasionally, I get a faint whiff of wet dog smell when I'm not on the bike, and  sniffing and looking around and, I suddenly realize........it's me......and yes, I wash my gear periodically and shower every day. I get this from both sets of gear, especially when damp. I think it's inherent with textile gear and people become acclimatized and fail to notice it. Leathers; even old, grimy old ones, will always smell like leather unless they're soaking wet. Even after getting wet, the normal leather smell returns once dry.

In spite of this minor annoyance, I love my textile gear, but recently I've been feeling an urge to return to leather. I just took delivery of a Vanson CSR2 jacket and, oh-baby, even in it's new, stiff condition, this thing just feels so right on a motorcycle. Although it's hot when I'm sitting still, with the vents open, it flows air quite well when in motion. Without doing some crash testing, I can't really compare the protective merits of leather vs. textiles. I think the textiles are more versatile, and in many ways more practical, but just picking up a favorite leather jacket will inspire you to go for a ride. The textile gear just doesn't create that same feeling for me.

Now I'm trying to choose pants to go with the Vanson and I just can't decide. I'm even considering the Cycleport kevlar stuff!

Ken
         
 

[Johnny Monsoon]

Textiles Melting:

I'm gonna call false for normal conditions here.

I did my happy lowside at about 35mph.  I slid about as far as you possibly can without going down and traveling straight down the highway until you stop.  

I realized that I didn't have far to go, and wanted to keep the bike from flipping up and over, so I held on to it; which means I was getting dragged at a much more constant speed, and for a greater speed over the course of distance I traveled than I would have had I been separated from my bike.

My textile tore, as expected.  It also knotted and pulled, as it should have, and caused the tears to be contained.  I easily slid some 20+ feet, with one section of my gear down.  While the ill-fitting garment led to the armor moving around and leaving my textile shell on the ground between me and the concrete, it proved something important.  It did not melt.

The 'melt' issue, I truly believe, would only EVER be an issue if you had a getoff at high speeds on a very long straight (which isn't likely; most times you're most likely to getoff at a corner).  There simply isn't enough time to get it hot enough to actually melt; that takes a LOT of heat.  It is far more likely that you'll just be picking out bits of sheared fabric instead of dealing with a 'melt' situation.  I've put the 'melting textiles' squarely where it belongs:  The Urban Legend pile.

Now, here's something else to consider:  A getoff at most any speed wearing a good quality leather will tend to result in the leather grabbing at the road surface since it slows you more quickly; which means greater potential for flipping the rider around and causing a bunch of other different sort of injuries not related to abrasion.  Just watch some of the rather uneventful wrecks in pro racing that result in big flips.

I'd be happier to have a textile over a leather product, in retrospect, than a leather product over a textile one.  A leather garment with velcro points on the high abrasion points with a textile pad would be ideal, since you could save the leather in a minor getoff but still count on the abrasion resistance of the leather if needed.

[JonS]

Talk about it all you want, but leather will always be my choice if I'm planning to fall.
Seriously, I have both and I definitely think that leather will protect you better than textile. When I went down in my AGV stuff, all it did was scuff. Why do you think that racers use the stuff?
 So, are we going to talk about leather verse textile boots next?

[ZED]

...
So, are we going to talk about leather verse textile boots next?

Oh, now that would be a good poll!  

Something along the lines of "what kind of boots do you ride in?"
A.  Leather boots
B.  Textile boots
C.  Rubber boots
D.  Boots!?  I don't need no stinkin' boots!  I ride in flipflops!
 

[Baz]

Textiles Melting:

I'm gonna call false for normal conditions here.

I did my happy lowside at about 35mph.  I slid about as far as you possibly can without going down and traveling straight down the highway until you stop.  

I realized that I didn't have far to go, and wanted to keep the bike from flipping up and over, so I held on to it; which means I was getting dragged at a much more constant speed, and for a greater speed over the course of distance I traveled than I would have had I been separated from my bike.

My textile tore, as expected.  It also knotted and pulled, as it should have, and caused the tears to be contained.  I easily slid some 20+ feet, with one section of my gear down.  While the ill-fitting garment led to the armor moving around and leaving my textile shell on the ground between me and the concrete, it proved something important.  It did not melt.

The 'melt' issue, I truly believe, would only EVER be an issue if you had a getoff at high speeds on a very long straight (which isn't likely; most times you're most likely to getoff at a corner).  There simply isn't enough time to get it hot enough to actually melt; that takes a LOT of heat.  It is far more likely that you'll just be picking out bits of sheared fabric instead of dealing with a 'melt' situation.  I've put the 'melting textiles' squarely where it belongs:  The Urban Legend pile.

Now, here's something else to consider:  A getoff at most any speed wearing a good quality leather will tend to result in the leather grabbing at the road surface since it slows you more quickly; which means greater potential for flipping the rider around and causing a bunch of other different sort of injuries not related to abrasion.  Just watch some of the rather uneventful wrecks in pro racing that result in big flips.

I'd be happier to have a textile over a leather product, in retrospect, than a leather product over a textile one.  A leather garment with velcro points on the high abrasion points with a textile pad would be ideal, since you could save the leather in a minor getoff but still count on the abrasion resistance of the leather if needed.

This is exactly what the study claimed... Textile melting would "probably" not be a problem for someone falling off at a posted speed limit.

I do have a video where a racer exited via a high side and was photographed skidding down the track at a very high rate of speed. You could actually see blue smoke coming off his leathers. (I wish I could post this) In that particular case, I would not have wanted to be wearing textiles.

Our local track here does allow textile suits, but no one gets up to any great speeds on this track.

[ZED]

You actually have a track up there Baz?  I thought our little loop down here was the only one around.
Or are you referring to some sort of go-kart track?

[Mostrogirl]

Textiles Melting:

My textile tore, as expected.  It also knotted and pulled, as it should have, and caused the tears to be contained.  I easily slid some 20+ feet, with one section of my gear down.  While the ill-fitting garment led to the armor moving around and leaving my textile shell on the ground between me and the concrete, it proved something important.  It did not melt.

The 'melt' issue, I truly believe, would only EVER be an issue if you had a getoff at high speeds on a very long straight (which isn't likely; most times you're most likely to getoff at a corner).  There simply isn't enough time to get it hot enough to actually melt; that takes a LOT of heat.  It is far more likely that you'll just be picking out bits of sheared fabric instead of dealing with a 'melt' situation.  I've put the 'melting textiles' squarely where it belongs:  The Urban Legend pile.

I disagree with the 'Melt' issue.  Last Sunday I went down cornering at 45 mph.  I had on Rev It textile pants and a Joe Rocket mesh/textile jacket.  The gear did what it was suppose to by protecting me from road rash.  However, the right side of my pants have several areas that are melted and I have large strawberries on my elbows from the heat.  The textiles are trash after one crash.

[STI-51]

I disagree with the 'Melt' issue.  Last Sunday I went down cornering at 45 mph.  I had on Rev It textile pants and a Joe Rocket mesh/textile jacket.  The gear did what it was suppose to by protecting me from road rash.  However, the right side of my pants have several areas that are melted and I have large strawberries on my elbows from the heat.  The textiles are trash after one crash.

I'm gonna have to be the cynic here and say, well, that could have been the problem.  Proper, quality textile gear should not melt onto the skin.

Also, the strawberries or rashes claimed by yourself and others here are generally not burns in the sense that something melted to your skin.  They are more likely due to the gear rubbing against the skin during said slide or crash, more akin to a rug burn type of irritation, not burned skin from something melting onto it.  This is especially common with ill-fitting gear, as there is more opportunity for the gear to shift around and rub against the skin.  Even with leathers one is not immune to such a 'burn' if not fitted properly.  

Furthermore, if the gear had actually melted onto the skin, it would have to be peeled off or surgically removed and would likely leave more damage than a rash.  Again, I believe such burns were more likely friction burns.

It could also be that the gear completely abraded, leaving the skin openly exposed to asphalt, causing the rash.

With today's technological advances, leather although great, is no longer No. 1 for protection.  My money goes with Dupont, Schoeller, etc. and their $billions of R&D vs. 10,000 + year-old technology.  

[Baz]

BAz, according to the Dupont info in the link I posted earlier (http://www.ironbuttuk.org/id21.html), this seems to be the case for companies that "coat their nylon with a layer of polyurethane that under heavy pavement friction can melt into your skin."  

With respect to their Kevlar, they claim that "It slides on pavement the same way as leather and dissipates friction heat better than leather."

Do you know whether the use or non-use of of polyurethane was a factor in the tests you read?  

Hey STI:

The test I read did not include any scientific content but just referred to textile burns as a general "it has happened" thing. Once again I stress that they did add a disclaimer that this would probably affect no one at street or highway speeds.

I do have 1st hand knowledge of both Nylon, Polyurethane & Polyester. (We use it in the products I sell) all have a melting point. I believe even Kevlar would have a melting point, and on that note, so would leather. (or at least a combustion point)

Now giving you my background with petrochemical fabrics, I just had an incident where heat dissipated a chemical that is widely used, and in theory could be used as a waterproofing treatment.

NIKWAX Lady......Please help us here. Does Nikwax contain Ply Vinyl Acetate?

The chemical is Poly Vinyl Acetate. We started using this on industrial (mostly Nylon) fabrics as a stiffening agent. (It would also work as a waterproofing agent as this is what caulking is made from). Anyway this chemical from a certain manufacturer was going to save the day for us, as it went on clear and really, you could not tell it was there. Well we found out that at 167 degrees, this stuff literally turned into gooey black balls (Think PV caulking fresh out of the tube, only at 167 degrees) Well if you had this on your jacket and heated it up to 167 degrees while you were sliding down the road, these little tar balls would have found their way to your skin. (it would not have been nice)

This could be what DuPont is talking about.

[hawkeyejohn14]

I have a Darian Coat and Pants, Vanson Perfed jacket a AGV perfed one piece and a new solid BMW ProRace Jacket and Pants coming and an old leather jacket from Yamaha. I like leather and a good rain suit. They all serve a purpose though. All Pads including back pads in all jackets and suits except my old Yamaha, just reinforced leather with some foam. It's 24 years old though and still in good shape due to treating with conditioner.