2005 Honda CBR1000RR vs 1999 XX

[Johnny Monsoon]

Preface:

I'm sure everyone who visits this part of the forum has read about the VFR vs other bikes, and how I've (personally) found the VFR somewhat superfluous when there are other bikes in the lineup that seem to be able to do the same job but with less weight, more power, etc.  Now, this isn't a bash on the VFR; I think it's a fantastic machine, but in my world, it just has somewhat of an identity crisis.

That left me comparing the XX to the VFR, and while I still think the XX performs better in most every situation, in most every measurable way, there are two facts that are simply inescapable:  1) The XX is a heavy bike.  Not a huge amount heavier than the VFR, but enough to be a deal killer for folks who live in really twisty stuff, and 2) The XX just isn't made anymore, and hasn't been offered here in the US for a while now.

One of the comparo bikes I was using was the CBR1000RR.  It weighs less than the VFR by a substantial amount, has (IMO) great ergos.  I find the CBR1KRR to be vastly more comfortable than the VFR (and quite frankly, more comfortable than the XX).  The CBR can certainly hold luggage, and when comparing the suspension... well... there's just no comparison as it blows both the VFR and XX completely away.

Findings:

First off, this is more of a direct comparison of the CBR1000RR to the XX than an outright review.  I opted to take a 2005 CBR1000RR over the brand new one for a test spin since the bikes, cosmetics aside, are identical to the available 2007 model on the floor, and the 'used' bike i rode had only 1400 original miles on it, which means it is broken in but not thrashed.  Hereafter, I'll refer to the CBR1000RR simply as the CBR and the CBR1100XX simply as the XX or Blackbird.  Since they're both technically CBRs, I didn't want to confuse anyone.

I'll skip the aesthetics of the CBRs since you either like them or you don't.  Everything works for me, and seems to be in a very good place.  My build is 5'11" (or 6' even depending on who's measuring me, etc), I have a 31" inseam and I want to say I have a 31" sleeve length.  I'm 170ish (little more, little less).  Healthy.  I only mention this because I seem to be built the same way most moto-companies must build their test guy to build bikes around.  

The CBR sits me further upright, oddly.  This has been my experience on the 929 and 954 models as well.  Whoever built the VFR and XX had a slightly different model.  The CBR sits me upright, and is actually more difficult to get down on the tank than my XX, which I think dictates the mission of both bikes; the CBR puts you in a good position to move around on it, where the XX wants to stretch you out over the tank to explore that top-end speed.  The VFR puts me a little further forward than the CBR, but not so much as the XX; however, the CBR doesn't lend itself to 'tucking in' as either of the two other bikes do, and leaves me in an uncomfortable position no matter where I try to get.  The bars are slightly too far rearward and causes me to roll my back.  The saddle on the CBR is firm, but not uncomfortable, and actually has a great shape.  The VFRs seat is just weird shaped for me, and is uncomfortable everywhere.  The XX is comfortable as it has more padding, but also is limited due to being a one-piece seat for both pilot and passenger.  The CBR, while comfortable, still does have high pegs that lock you into a single position.  On the XX (and I presume the VFR) the passenger pegs are an option on long trips, but on the CBR they're just too high and tucked to be a viable option.  This brings me to another difference in the overall design theory of the bikes.  Where the VFR and XX were designed to be refined, smooth, comfortable bikes that offer a lot of amenities, the CBR is a bit stripped-down and purpose built (which should surprise absolutely no one).  But, given that most of us use these bikes for real-world riding instead of eternal track days, I think it is worth noting those differences.

The VFR is nothing if not refined; likewise for the XX.  I was most struck, I think, by the very cobbled-together feel of the CBR.  It's like they put the engine in the frame, finished up the 'what makes it go, and what controls what makes it go' stuff, then everything else was an afterthought.  Of course this is almost certainly in an attempt to keep weight down, but overall makes for a very spartan, unrefined machine when coming off a bike like the XX.One note that I must make refers to the swingarm proximity to the left peg (shifter side peg).  When I had my feet in proper position (ball of my foot on the peg) my heel encountered the rear swingarm.  I don't have absurdly big feed (dang) and so found this somewhat unnerving and could see the potential for this to be an issue.   That's something that points directly to weight reduction over refinement/rider comfort.  Refinement wasn't limited to the aesthetics.

The XX is insanely smooth by comparison, throughout the rpm sweep.  I was very surprised that over the span of 6 years, it seems that the shortcomings of EFI on my XX (which present as off-idle/low rpm snatchiness) is not only present in the CBR, but even enhanced.  Again, I suspect this is due to lightweight combined with a lack of advancement of Honda's EFI program.

I would stop short of discounting the CBR as a daily driver/SPORT-touring machine.  Clearly, the suspension itself can be a huge asset, and can be adjusted to make the bike ride more like a heavier bike on long straights, and have the versatility to dial it back in when the going gets very twisty.  Clearly, the CBR can take luggage as well as any bike; maybe even better than some with the undertail exhaust.  The wind protection could prove an issue for foul-weather riding, though I suspect getting a large screen is an easy enough thing to do.

Overall, I was left confused.  It came down to a matter of weight vs refinement.  I'll have to sort out the details of what's more feasible to lose for my needs.  Of course, it also presented some other things that are important that may be combined in new ways.  If I want great suspension, a comfortable road ride, and light-weight, an upper-end DS bike might be the most logical answer.  Of course, then it becomes a matter of power vs capability/practicality...

I love bikes!

[gritsngravy]

"......First off, this is more of a direct comparison of the CBR1000RR to the XX than an outright review.  I opted to take a 2005 CBR1000RR over the brand new one for a test spin since the bikes, cosmetics aside, are identical to the available 2007 model on the floor, and the 'used' bike i rode had only 1400 original miles on it, which means it is broken in but not thrashed......."  



Actually the '06-'07 cbr's had numerous small changes that resulted in the bike being lighter and slightly faster than the '05 model.   Among the many changes the '06 has lighter  thinner front brake discs,  higher redline,  lighter exhaust system, all in an attempt to make the bike more aggressive in track riding.  


Your conclusion is pretty much right on, the xx & vfr are a generation or four behind the cbr.   The cbr is a honest to gosh sport bike that some use on the race track but the majority use on the street.   Those that ride the cbr, or any proper sport bike, any great distance do so because they value the purity of the ride over creature comfort.    Me personally, I'd rather eat rocks than ride my cbr over 400 miles in one day.   Those miles 1 - 399 would be an absolute blast, especially with a hot bath and steak waiting at the end.   I'm no iron butt type on ANY style of bike.  Give me a great day ride and a nice evening to cap it off.    If I ever do decide to take longer rides I'd get a soft highway capable touring cruiser like a nomad and do the easy rider thing.  

My advice, stick with your xx

[bizarro]

I'm 5'11'' and about 190 lbs. I haven't ridden the new gen CBR but the 954RR was one of the smoothest, most capable bikes I've ever ridden. I had no problem doing 500 miles days on it (why did I sell it? I wanted to slow down and picked up a R1150GS, which was a very expensive mistake). I personally prefer a bike with ergos that encourage lateral movement vs encouraging a superman high-speed spawl. You might give the 954RR another chance.

[kevin_stevens]

BTW, I know people are tired of hearing it, but the ZX-14, similar in class to the XX, has similar advantages and weights only four lbs. more than a VFR.  

2006 Honda VFR Interceptor
Rake: 25.3 degrees
Trail: 100mm
Wheelbase: 57.4 in
Dry Weight: 470 lb

2006 Kawasaki ZX-14
Rake: 23.0 degrees
Trail: 94mm
Wheelbase: 57.5 in
Dry Weight: 474 lb


KeS

[Rogue]

Johnny, have you tried test riding the 2007 CBR 600RR?

This bike has won massive praise from many testers.  In fact, Motorcyclist magazine named it THE BEST SPORTBIKE.  Period.

Why?

They say it has the power of a 750.  It has the right amount of low to midrange power (for a 600), yet has the top end power to rule the 600 class.

It has ergos that allows it to be ridden all day.  No.  It is NOT like the VFR.  Probably more like the 1000RR but with higher bars.

It has a gas gauge!  OMG is that true?  On a sportbike no less!  

It weighs 412 lbs WET.  No other bike can touch it!  

It has handling that Motorcyclist describes as, "sublime".  

Honestly, if you are looking for something that is "better" than your XX in many ways, you may want to take a closer look.  And BTW, don't laugh it off by assuming it's just a 600 therefore you're not interested (not enough power and speed).  Ride it and see what it's like first.  It may surprise you.  You may surprise yourself in that you may come to the realization that you don't actually NEED big power to have BIG fun.  

If I were shopping for a do it all sportbike, I know the 2007* CBR600RR would be the very first bike on my list.  

*make sure it's a 2007 model.  2006 model is slightly different.

[kevin_stevens]

Johnny, have you tried test riding the 2007 CBR 600RR?

This bike has won massive praise from many testers.  In fact, Motorcyclist magazine named it THE BEST SPORTBIKE.  Period.

Why?

They say it has the power of a 750.  It has the right amount of low to midrange power (for a 600), yet has the top end power to rule the 600 class.

It has ergos that allows it to be ridden all day.  No.  It is NOT like the VFR.  Probably more like the 1000RR but with higher bars.

It has a gas gauge!  OMG is that true?  On a sportbike no less!  

It weighs 412 lbs WET.  No other bike can touch it!  

It has handling that Motorcyclist describes as, "sublime".  

Honestly, if you are looking for something that is "better" than your XX in many ways, you may want to take a closer look.  And BTW, don't laugh it off by assuming it's just a 600 therefore you're not interested (not enough power and speed).  Ride it and see what it's like first.  It may surprise you.  You may surprise yourself in that you may come to the realization that you don't actually NEED big power to have BIG fun.  

If I were shopping for a do it all sportbike, I know the 2007* CBR600RR would be the very first bike on my list.  

*make sure it's a 2007 model.  2006 model is slightly different.

Would the GSX-R 750 be on that list, Rogue?

KeS

[UFO]

Here's a little tip.  When you write a review comparing Bike A to Bike B don't mention Bike C 50 times.

[Rogue]

Would the GSX-R 750 be on that list, Rogue?

KeS

It should be huh?  

I have not tried sitting on the Suzuki.  Although I'm thinking the GSXR750 would have lower bars than the CBR600RR.  The RR has ergos that are very similar to my modded Firebolt (helibars/Rider Pegs), which is really perfect for me.  I can ride that all day without much fatigue.  And at 412 lbs wet.....that bike will feel like there was nothing to it when you're flicking it in and out of turns.  My 'Bolt weighs 460 wet and it already feels real easy to ride in the twisties.  

I used to not think so but now I'm convinced.  It's not just the ergos that determine rider fatigue, it is also how much energy a rider exerts while riding the bike.  Even with comfy ergos, a heavy bike will tire you out on a long day ride if you spend a lot of it in the twisties.  A lighter bike that handles well will demand less from you and allow you to ride faster with less energy for longer periods.  

[kevin_stevens]

It should be huh?  

I have not tried sitting on the Suzuki.  Although I'm thinking the GSXR750 would have lower bars than the CBR600RR.  The RR has ergos that are very similar to my modded Firebolt (helibars/Rider Pegs), which is really perfect for me.  I can ride that all day without much fatigue.  And at 412 lbs wet.....that bike will feel like there was nothing to it when you're flicking it in and out of turns.  My 'Bolt weighs 460 wet and it already feels real easy to ride in the twisties.  

I used to not think so but now I'm convinced.  It's not just the ergos that determine rider fatigue, it is also how much energy a rider exerts while riding the bike.  Even with comfy ergos, a heavy bike will tire you out on a long day ride if you spend a lot of it in the twisties.  A lighter bike that handles well will demand less from you and allow you to ride faster with less energy for longer periods.  

Well, seeing where you were going with your CBR recommendation, it seemed like the 750 commonly fell in that same category, so I was curious.

I guess I agree with you in part - I'd just say that the energy exerted depends so much on the ergos that the weight becomes very secondary to having a bike that fits you.  I mean, you'd consider 35lbs a significant chunk of weight, right?    But while I can notice the difference of a full vs empty tank, I don't ever think at the end of a long day "Oh geez, I'm going to fill up, this bike is going to be a pig for the next 75 miles."  I'm also a big believer that smoothness and wind noise/buffeting make up a huge component of rider fatigue.

KeS

[Rogue]

Oh yeah.  The fit of the bike to your body is important as well.  Perfect example is Johnny's findings about the VFR.  He doesn't fit the bike so he doesn't like it's ergos.  Even though, the VFR is one of the most comfortable (in my opinion) sportbikes around.  It has the perfect balance in that it distributes rider weight equally among your arms, butt, and legs.  I also love the fit of my Firebolt.  It has more forward lean, and higher pegs, but its body positioning encourages high speed riding more than the VFR does, yet it doesn't put me in a fetal position with arms stretched out!  

So assuming a good fit, weight would be the next big factor to me.  It's not so much with many people here (including you it sounds like).  But a lot of times it's what you are used to.  For example, it's probably hard for you to imagine how much "easier" it is to ride a 412 lb. bike, being that you are so used to riding a 550 lb. bike (ZX14).  Or not.  I don't know what other bikes you have.  But ridden back to back, say your ZX14 vs the CBR600RR, or the XX vs the RR, it would be easier to ascertain the effects on fatigue.

[kevin_stevens]

Oh yeah.  The fit of the bike to your body is important as well.  Perfect example is Johnny's findings about the VFR.  He doesn't fit the bike so he doesn't like it's ergos.  Even though, the VFR is one of the most comfortable (in my opinion) sportbikes around.  It has the perfect balance in that it distributes rider weight equally among your arms, butt, and legs.  I also love the fit of my Firebolt.  It has more forward lean, and higher pegs, but its body positioning encourages high speed riding more than the VFR does, yet it doesn't put me in a fetal position with arms stretched out!  

So assuming a good fit, weight would be the next big factor to me.  It's not so much with many people here (including you it sounds like).  But a lot of times it's what you are used to.  For example, it's probably hard for you to imagine how much "easier" it is to ride a 412 lb. bike, being that you are so used to riding a 550 lb. bike (ZX14).  Or not.  I don't know what other bikes you have.  But ridden back to back, say your ZX14 vs the CBR600RR, or the XX vs the RR, it would be easier to ascertain the effects on fatigue.

Well, I was comparing most directly to a '03 Gixxer1K, which is the bike I came off of to the ZX14.  It's a good comparison for me because I ran a full circuit Palomar/Zuma run of ~300 miles on the gixxer just beforehand, and the same on the zixxer just after.  I thought both bikes ergos were fairly comfortable for me, but the smoothness, quieter exhaust, and wind protection more than offset weight, and the 14 ended up a clear "comfort" winner as a result.

Weight really only matters much to me when I have to do multiple HARD transitions, and that just doesn't happen very often.  Apart from that, the fatigue is from shifting around on the bike keeping weight on my thighs/toes, and that's pretty much the same.

KeS

[Johnny Monsoon]

You may surprise yourself in that you may come to the realization that you don't actually NEED big power to have BIG fun.  

I find myself honestly pining for my KLR; so big power is very secondary.  Here's the rub though:  Try to find a lightweight bike with modest/adequate power that is as smooth or refined for distance riding as a big-bore open-class bike like the XX, ZX14, ZZR, 'Busa...  

Oddly, this recent volley of sportbikes has gotten me thinking more and more at well spec'd DS bikes.  

[Rogue]

Here's the rub though:  Try to find a lightweight bike with modest/adequate power that is as smooth or refined for distance riding as a big-bore open-class bike like the XX, ZX14, ZZR, 'Busa...  

Hmmmm....a VFR?    

BMW F800 ST
Triumph Sprint ST
Plenty of people have toured on 600's before.  I don't see why a modern 600 wouldn't meet your requirements.

Oddly, this recent volley of sportbikes has gotten me thinking more and more at well spec'd DS bikes.  

But you won't get sportbike handling.

[kevin_stevens]

I find myself honestly pining for my KLR; so big power is very secondary.  Here's the rub though:  Try to find a lightweight bike with modest/adequate power that is as smooth or refined for distance riding as a big-bore open-class bike like the XX, ZX14, ZZR, 'Busa...  

Oddly, this recent volley of sportbikes has gotten me thinking more and more at well spec'd DS bikes.  

http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/bikes/bike.jsp?b=g650xmoto

KeS

[Johnny Monsoon]

Hmmmm....a VFR?    

BMW F800 ST
Triumph Sprint ST
Plenty of people have toured on 600's before.  I don't see why a modern 600 wouldn't meet your requirements.



But you won't get sportbike handling.

Hmmm,

Too heavy & expensive without performance
Too heavy & expensive
Too heavy

A spec'd DS won't give you sportbike performance?  Maybe not in a straight line, but I'll go toe-to-toe with any sportbike rider off the street on a track with me on a sweet DS bike and very likely hand him his backside.  They corner better than most any beast alive.

[Johnny Monsoon]

http://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/bikes/bike.jsp?b=g650xmoto

KeS

I've had the BMW machines in my sights for a while now.  Oddly, while I've been confused of the F650GS's purpose (or where it would edge out any of the established Big4 bikes or KTM/Aprillia, etc) I find myself really settling up on this one.  I'd rather stay with a 21" front though for offroading if I go the DS route.  The new Honda Transalp seems very impressive and is also in my sights.

[gritsngravy]

Hmmm,

Too heavy & expensive without performance
Too heavy & expensive
Too heavy

A spec'd DS won't give you sportbike performance?  Maybe not in a straight line, but I'll go toe-to-toe with any sportbike rider off the street on a track with me on a sweet DS bike and very likely hand him his backside.  They corner better than most any beast alive.

Nah, don't think so.   Unless your closed course has pot holes and table top jumps the sport bike will have the edge.   Admire the enthusiasm but it's time to be real.  

[Johnny Monsoon]

I've never ridden a well-spec'd DS bike or a motard.

Fixed it for ya!  I've ridden both, and I can say with absolute certainty, that at anything less than pro-racer level, a well spec'd DS/supermoto will outcorner a sportbike on a twisty road; especially if the surface is anything less than absolutely pristine.

[gritsngravy]

 

[skater69]

Hmmm,

Too heavy & expensive without performance
Too heavy & expensive
Too heavy

A spec'd DS won't give you sportbike performance?  Maybe not in a straight line, but I'll go toe-to-toe with any sportbike rider off the street on a track with me on a sweet DS bike and very likely hand him his backside.  They corner better than most any beast alive.

Too heavy & expensive without performance-F800ST?

You obviously haven't ridden one.  It's not cheap but it's about 412lbs dry.....feels light and easy to maneuver....big time.  And plenty of power...not superbike performance but believe me......it goes.  A few suspension mods and the bike would be perfect.....and it's very comfortable.