Here Is The Next Musclecar

[Rogue]

Yup.  The Evil Conglomerate is just eager to please everyone.  The Pontiac G8 goes on sale.  Already seen the ads in the moto-mags.

http://www.pontiac.com/g8/index.jsp

[ksann]

Looks hot, but will it be a rattle bucket in three years?



ken

[shah269]

Looks hot, but will it be a rattle bucket in three days?



ken

sorry mate couldn't help it!
My 02 VW Jetta has 55k miles on it. Quiet as a mouse!

[Rogue]

Looks hot, but will it be a rattle bucket in three years?
ken

Very good point Ken.  GM is definitely notorious for that.

Having owned a 2001 Saturn L300 with well over 56k miles on it, I would say they have improved tremendously.  Only now do I notice a slight rattle near the glovebox, although I suspect it's something loose inside there.

In the 1980's-90's, GM interiors were the worst rattle traps in the industry.  With the exception of our VW, which not only rattled, but fell apart inside and out.  Sorry Shah.  VW still occupies the bottom of the reliability list, rattle or no rattle.

[greench440]

How can a musclecar have 4 doors?  This is hotter:

[swimmer]

lets see, A 6 liter engine when gas is over $3/gallon and climbing and when all sensible people are trying (should be) to reduce their consumption.  Way to go GM.  Morons.  I hope if flops.

[greench440]

lets see, A 6 liter engine when gas is over $3/gallon and climbing and when all sensible people are trying (should be) to reduce their consumption.  Way to go GM.  Morons.  I hope if flops.

Gotta agree with you there.  This is why the American auto makers are doomed in the long run.  They can't compete in the world market and the home market dynamics are changing faster than Detroit can keep up with.

[Rogue]

I guess this is why Chrysler can't sell enough 300's with Hemi's in them huh?

People, how about being a little positive.  If you're not into cars, STFU and go to another thread!  

[Rogue]

How can a musclecar have 4 doors?  This is hotter:

Agree!  But that's not for sale yet so it doesn't count.  It only counts against this:



Besides, you can't bring up the 4-door thing then post Chargers when Chrysler has been selling these like hot cakes!



Especially since they coverted this......



To this....

[greench440]

I'm totally into cars.  My comments are not those of someone who thinks cars are evil, but someone tired of looking at detriot and not seeing anything remotely interesting.  Having been burned in the 80s, 90s and 00s by crappy GM and Ford products, these companies have work to do to get me back in the showroom.  I also had an American built Toyota Tacoma that was a POS and has sworn me off any car built in North America, regardless of brand.  Our Japanese built Toyota Celica has been a rock for going on 12 years and 140k miles.

Look at the tanking sales numbers for GM's new GMT900 trucks which hit the market at just the wrong time. The company put all their eggs into the big truck/SUV market that has been killed by $3+ gas.  Ford is in even worse shape.  These companies had zero competitive small cars to pull out of their back pocket to respond to the market.  Chrysler has been bought out by a bunch of non car guys from a capital management hedge fund and is about to get stripped and flipped.

Where is Ford, Chrysler and GM's answer to the Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, etc?   These are cars that other makers are already building in other parts of the world and can quickly bring to the US when the market shifted on gas prices.  Hint the answer is not the Korean made Aveo.

The new Malibu is a step in the right direction, let's hope it's not too little too late.

Try these car blogs if you haven't already discovered them:

jalopnik.com
thetruthaboutcars.com

[greench440]

Who is posting Chargers?  That pic is clearly a 2 door Challenger.

It was criminal when Chrysler brought the Charger out with four doors.  

[baldheadeddork]

I guess this is why Chrysler can't sell enough 300's with Hemi's in them huh?

Besides, you can't bring up the 4-door thing then post Chargers when Chrysler has been selling these like hot cakes!

The 300 is selling so well that Chrysler is having to put a $2500 rebate on them - including the hemi-powered 300C.

BTW - that rebate is the biggest currently offered in the entire Chrysler line...

There's the same deal on the Charger R/T, too. V-6 Chargers only get a $1500 rebate.

As a rule you don't hang big rebates on cars that are selling like hot cakes...

[chornbe]

GM can suck it. They're complete ass now. Their pooch is screwed. Their clown is de-wigged. Whatever metaphor you throw at them, GM can still suck it. Hard and long and even with teeth. I don't care.

$.02

/rant about GM who can suck it.
 

[katzke]

I grew up with japanese and german cars. If you didn't have to be a watchmaker to work on one, I'd own a german car, by choice... Japanese by and far have been catching up in build quality, but still make cars that feel like sewing machines versus when put next to a real sports car engine.

American carmakers? Pah. Give me a freakin' break. I've had to drive a Pontiac Grand Prix and a Chevy Malibu ... same frame, btw, same mushy handling and steering, same horrible interior ergonomics, same gutless "v6" ... I had to fill up the wiper fluid on the Grand Prix, and I was shocked to see a V6 under there. I thought it was a four banger with really shitty mileage.

American carmakers are JUST starting to catch up with what people want in an *exterior* ... they have yet to figure it out under the hood and on the interior.

Give me an american car that's lightweight without feeling fragile, with a solid engine that really puts power down, a sports suspension, and that gets 40+mpg ... and I'd *think* about buying one used after they'd been on the market for a few years.

[Galo]

This is why the American auto makers are doomed in the long run.  They can't compete in the world market and the home market dynamics are changing faster than Detroit can keep up with.

Funny you say that, when the basic platform for this car was not created in the US....
 

Not that that would make me buy it or not, it's just not one of my priorities right now...

[Galo]

Give me an american car that's lightweight without feeling fragile, with a solid engine that really puts power down, a sports suspension, and that gets 40+mpg ... and I'd *think* about buying one used after they'd been on the market for a few years.

And what non-American car has this combination?

[Mike-H]

All front wheel drive cars are "DITCH PIGS" & therefore not worthy of the title muscle/ performance/ or sports car....& we are talking front wheel not all wheel or rear wheel.....so declared by the car gods ....

[swimmer]

I guess this is why Chrysler can't sell enough 300's with Hemi's in them huh?

People, how about being a little positive.  If you're not into cars, STFU and go to another thread!  

How about I would like GM to succeed and start kicking ass.  They come out with a car like this because its easy to design rather than something that has some potential to sell in large volumes - like something that competes with cars like the Camry or Civic that sell in the 100,000's.  A car like this G8 will probably get some good press, by people who don't have to fill the tank with their own money, because its fast etc... and a few hundred red necks will buy it and then in two years it won't be worth shit.  The success  of GM will not be had by committing design dollars to cars like this.  Does Honda or Toyota have a car like this?  Nope, and the last time I checked neither company was loosing money.  Should GM copy Toyota or Honda exactly?  No, but its pretty obvious that they are doing something right and GM should get a clue.  GM should be planning for what kind of cars people will want to buy when gas is over $5/gallon and not these low volume niche markets.  Yeah, a Corolla is not exactly as glamorous as the G8 but I'd rather be selling a car in the millions of units rather than the thousands.

[Rogue]

Look at the tanking sales numbers for GM's new GMT900 trucks which hit the market at just the wrong time. The company put all their eggs into the big truck/SUV market that has been killed by $3+ gas.  Ford is in even worse shape.  These companies had zero competitive small cars to pull out of their back pocket to respond to the market.  Chrysler has been bought out by a bunch of non car guys from a capital management hedge fund and is about to get stripped and flipped.
Where is Ford, Chrysler and GM's answer to the Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, etc?  

Thanks for the links.

In case you haven't looked, GM has gone back to profitability beginning 2007 and is making a strong finanical comeback.  The GMT900 truck sales is pretty strong considering they haven't even been out a whole 12 months!  BTW, the largest market in the US is light trucks.  Ford sold over 900k light trucks in 2006.  Should GM ignore this market?  Of course not!  They did the right thing by coming up with the GMT900 light trucks.  

In any case, I have said this before, the car market in N.A. lies in Light Trucks and Mid-size sedans.  It is NOT in compact cars!  The Fit, Yaris, and others....these things are just a way to lower ones CAFE average.  You will not see America lining up for these things!  They will continue to buy the mid-size cars and light trucks.  This is why GM is attacking this segment with the new Malibu.  

You gotta look beyond what YOU think is the best car for America and instead look at what people are REALLY buying.  Just because many people here think it's cool to drive around in Prius or Scion, doesn't mean it is THE right car for everyone.  For that same reason, the muscle cars are NOT the right car for everyone either.  But if you are the type that likes them, the cars above are really cool. Let's not over analyze the car market and just discuss the cool cars above.  If you don't think it's cool then move on or start a discussion on whatever else you think is cool.

[Rogue]

IGive me an american car that's lightweight without feeling fragile, with a solid engine that really puts power down, a sports suspension, and that gets 40+mpg ... and I'd *think* about buying one used after they'd been on the market for a few years.

 

Then go to Auto Trader and buy a used Mini.  Musclecars are not for you.  Move on.  

[spd2918]

Looks hot, but will it be a rattle bucket in three years?



ken

You need to get with the times.  This was true 12 to 20 years ago, but things have changed.  The interiors may still be a little chinsy, but the major components are dead on reliable.  Hell, I have had four new Chrysler products (Wrangler, Liberty, Neon, and Dodge Truck) with only 1 problem- the paint one the truck's wheels.  I have had two VWs (Jetta, Passat, both 04's) and each had SEVERAL issues.

Just about everything made today (except Kia and Chinesse cars) is high quality.

[Rogue]

How about I would like GM to succeed and start kicking ass.  They come out with a car like this because its easy to design rather than something that has some potential to sell in large volumes - like something that competes with cars like the Camry or Civic that sell in the 100,000's....GM should be planning for what kind of cars people will want to buy when gas is over $5/gallon and not these low volume niche markets.  

GM just released the new Malibu to compete head to head with Camry/Accord.  They hope to take over the mid-size car market from Toyota and Honda.  And BTW, GM is making money and they haven't even sold a single G8 or Malibu yet.  So maybe you can cut them a little slack for trying?   And you mentioned that GM should be planning for what kind of cars people will buy when gas prices are $5/gallon--did you see my post on GM's Volt Hybrid?  How about the one about the GMC Yukon hybrid?  They're not only planning, they are doing it.  

A year ago, many people here spelled nothing but doom and gloom for GM.  A few even WISHED it.  WTF?    Now GM is back to profitability and is on a very strong track to continuou this trend.  They have released lots of car models, in addition to SUV's and pickups.  Just goes to show that many of you doom and gloomers were wrong with a capital W.  

Now can we please stay on topic and talk about musclecars and NOT Corollas?  Those things are just boring as hell!

[ruffcut]

Who is posting Chargers?  That pic is clearly a 2 door Challenger.

It was criminal when Chrysler brought the Charger out with four doors.  

  Agreed!! 4 door charger for God`s sake.

[MadMax96]

There's an ad for the G8 in the November Car & Driver magazine.  They compare the horsepower to an Infiniti M45 and say with a 0-60 time in just over 5 seconds, it's taking on the BMW 5-series.

Umm.. sure.  

Oh yeah - then it says it beats the competition at their own game... at a fraction of the price.

If I was in the market for a 5-series or the Infiniti do they really think I would say to myself, "oh hold on there... you're saying this Pontiac is faster to 60 than this BMW and has more hp than the M45?  Sheesh - I'd be a fool to not buy this car."

Sorry, the people looking to spend the money on the German and Japanese car wouldn't even consider a Pontiac that's made in Australia, let alone the U.S.

I think it'll be a very decent car, that horsepower/features at that price is a great value - I just don't think it'll take sales away from BMW or Infiniti.  I still don't think I could spend $30k on a Pontiac though.

At least Pontiac didn't try to revive an old nameplate again like they did w/ the GTO.  That 04-06 GTO is one of the best bargains in the used car market.  The first thing I'd do is rip off the nameplates because it just shouldn't be called that.

[Rogue]

Sorry, the people looking to spend the money on the German and Japanese car wouldn't even consider a Pontiac that's made in Australia, let alone the U.S.

Absolutely true!  

Although I think the marketing hype is aimed NOT at the BMW/Infinit, or any of the potential luxury car buyers.  It is aimed at the Musclecar guys.  I'll give credit where credit is due.  The Infinit M45 and BMW 540i are fast 4-door sedans.  I think it is a complement to those cars to say the G8 can beat their performance, because that is a lot of performance.  

In any case, if someone had $30k to spend, now they have an added choice.  Think about this:  who besides Chryslers makes a car with similar sporting credentials and V8 powertrain at this price point?  To get this kind of stuff indeed you have to go to Infinit/Lexus/BMW/MB/Cadillac then pay the premium for those luxury brands.

[Galo]

Want a modern, 4-door muscle car? It's called the Lexus IS350.....it's faster from 0-60 than a BMW 545, gets much better gas mileage, and is $12k cheaper to boot.

Now, the G8 will do all that as well, and cost another $12k less, so.....what's your choice?

If I were in the market for such a car, the answer is simple: the G8

[Rogue]

Well since you're on a price point discussion, I would get a G8, then buy a new fully kitted sport-touring bike.

Now THAT is value AND performance.

Like I said, the G8 won't appeal to import lovers.

[Galo]

Well since you're on a price point discussion, I would get a G8, then buy a new fully kitted sport-touring bike.

Now THAT is value AND performance.

Like I said, the G8 won't appeal to import lovers.

Them are three very true statements!
 

[Orson]

That's always been my favorite muscle car  

[ironmike]

One nostalgic word for you, Orson...  (bet it'll make y'grin, too)

 - "Bullet"

[Mike-H]

One nostalgic word for you, Orson...  (bet it'll make y'grin, too)

 - "Bullet"

Limited quantity build for 2008.....315 hp & 325? ft/ibs torque....green only MSRP $31199.00....sweet....

[jude]

Looks hot, but will it be a rattle bucket in three years?



ken

Yeah, not like my Accord that took exactly 1 month to start rattling and squeaking to high heaven.  Man, was I ever snowed on Japanese 'quality'.

Oh, and don't get me started on the complete piece of shit called Camry, that never did get it's electrics sorted.  Finally had to sell the shit-box after two years of pure pain.

[Rincewind]

The cop versions of this car scare me.  I saw two while out riding today.  One in white, backed up a crevice ready to pounce - glad I wasn't speeding too badly.  Phew.  Then I saw police version, in black.   That is one mean looking cop car.  

[MadMax96]

Absolutely true!  

Although I think the marketing hype is aimed NOT at the BMW/Infinit, or any of the potential luxury car buyers.  It is aimed at the Musclecar guys.

Not sure about marketing "hype" but the comparisons in the magazine I referred to is an actual advertisement from Pontiac - it wasn't the editors from the magazine.  Judging from the ad, I think Pontiac is trying to break into the sports-luxury sedan market.  Pontiac has always been more sport than luxury and BMW & Infiniti have been luxury first.

I think Pontiac would have a better chance marketing this as direct competition with the LX body Chryslers (300, Magnum, Charger).  Chrysler owns the market of the big hp, RWD, 4 door sedans.

[gforce]

The cop versions of this car scare me.  I saw two while out riding today.  One in white, backed up a crevice ready to pounce - glad I wasn't speeding too badly.  Phew.  Then I saw police version, in black.   That is one mean looking cop car.  

And one gigantic waste of our taxpayer dollars.  The days of "high-speed chases" went out with police radios and copters.

Seriously, can you believe that Detroit thinks "retro-muscle" -- with automatic trannys -- is going to lead it to the promised land in this environment?    

I'll believe Detroit's gotten its head extricated from its posterior when I hear about the functional goals of new models before I hear about the "styling cues."  

And, sadly, I don't expect that to be anytime soon.

[Jeff]

I for one think the new four door Chargers are sweet. Are they as bad assed as the original? No. But I bet more people will buy a four door Charger than they would a two door. Four doors makes it easier for passengers. Got kids in a car seat? Four doors is WAY easier to deal with. Anyone who dreams of a muscle car, but can't get one because they need a grocery getter/people hauler, now has their answer in the Charger.

They just need to have a manual transmission.

Jeff

[veefer800canuck]

That's Hawt!  

[twist]

Yup.  The Evil Conglomerate is just eager to please everyone.  The Pontiac G8 goes on sale.  Already seen the ads in the moto-mags.

http://www.pontiac.com/g8/index.jsp

Holden Commodore.  Anyway, getting 360hp out of a 6.0 V8 is not my idea of a muscle car.  At least put a fully tuned LS2 in it, so it makes 400hp.  An LS3 would be even better.

[Dichotomous]

Thanks for the links.

In case you haven't looked, GM has gone back to profitability beginning 2007 and is making a strong finanical comeback.  The GMT900 truck sales is pretty strong considering they haven't even been out a whole 12 months!  BTW, the largest market in the US is light trucks.  Ford sold over 900k light trucks in 2006.  Should GM ignore this market?  Of course not!  They did the right thing by coming up with the GMT900 light trucks.  

In any case, I have said this before, the car market in N.A. lies in Light Trucks and Mid-size sedans.  It is NOT in compact cars!  The Fit, Yaris, and others....these things are just a way to lower ones CAFE average.  You will not see America lining up for these things!  They will continue to buy the mid-size cars and light trucks.  This is why GM is attacking this segment with the new Malibu.  

You gotta look beyond what YOU think is the best car for America and instead look at what people are REALLY buying.  Just because many people here think it's cool to drive around in Prius or Scion, doesn't mean it is THE right car for everyone.  For that same reason, the muscle cars are NOT the right car for everyone either.  But if you are the type that likes them, the cars above are really cool. Let's not over analyze the car market and just discuss the cool cars above.  If you don't think it's cool then move on or start a discussion on whatever else you think is cool.

have you looked around you lately?  there are just as many if not many many many more small japanese cars driving around the streets than there are light trucks.  or maybe its just that way here.  I wouldnt be fooled so much my sales figures, people might be buying fords and GM's, but I dont see them on the road as much as hondas and yotas, maybe they buy them and find out that they dont last quite the same and cost more to drive so they fall back to the camry

[Squareman357]

The cop versions of this car scare me.  I saw two while out riding today.  One in white, backed up a crevice ready to pounce - glad I wasn't speeding too badly.  Phew.  Then I saw police version, in black.   That is one mean looking cop car.  

Don't be too scared.  The cop versions are usually the V6 and not the Hemi.  I've seen one or two Indiana State Troopers driving unmarked Hemi's, but all the other local popo I've seen with them had the 250 hp 3.5 liter V-6 and not the 340 hp 5.7 liter Hemi V-8 and DEFINITELY not the one in the picture, a 430 hp 6.1 liter Hemi V-8.  You're still relatively safe LOL!

[baldheadeddork]

In case you haven't looked, GM has gone back to profitability beginning 2007 and is making a strong finanical comeback.

You must have missed this..

GM posts huge $39 billion net loss

DETROIT - It’s hard to ignore the second largest quarterly loss in U.S. history.

But General Motors Corp.’s record $39 billion loss on a charge involving unused tax credits was only one piece of dire news for the world’s largest car company.

GM is hemorrhaging money, particularly in North America, and the outlook for 2008 and beyond is bleak. A soft U.S. market, high gas prices, the housing slump and jittery consumers will hamper the automaker’s restructuring efforts, industry analysts said. GM reported the latest loss Wednesday.
Story continues below ↓advertisement

“We continue to expect the fundamentals to worsen before they improve,” Bear Stearns analyst Peter Nesvold said in a note to analysts.

GM’s third-quarter loss of $39 billion was the second-worst quarterly net loss in U.S. corporate history under generally accepted accounting principles, said Howard Silverblatt, senior index analyst for Standard & Poor’s. The loss was exceeded only by AOL Time Warner’s $44.9 billion, or $10.04 per share loss, in the fourth quarter of 2002, he said.

GM attributed most of the third-quarter loss to a $38.6 billion noncash charge related to accumulated deferred tax credits in the U.S., Canada and Germany. Accounting rules require companies to write down the value of such credits if they have scant prospects for a return to profitability in the near term.

But it wasn't just accounting problems.

What’s more troubling for GM is continuing losses in North America, where it reported a net loss of $247 million without the charge for the latest quarter. That compares with a net loss of $667 million in the year-ago period.

[BUSAFETT]

How can a musclecar have 4 doors?  This is hotter:

My thoughts exactly..   I've been a lifetime supporter of GM, but their latest "musclecars" suck.  And by the time the Camaro comes out they'll want 50K for it.  They really need to get their head out of their @$$.

BF

[Leanintree]

have you looked around you lately?  there are just as many if not many many many more small japanese cars driving around the streets than there are light trucks.  or maybe its just that way here.  I wouldnt be fooled so much my sales figures, people might be buying fords and GM's, but I dont see them on the road as much as hondas and yotas, maybe they buy them and find out that they dont last quite the same and cost more to drive so they fall back to the camry

Dunno where your from, but one thing to consider is that there's a LOT more open space in the US than there are population centers. The rural auto buyers seem to have at least 1 truck per household, and that's the first purchase, before a car for commuting. Around the population centers, YES, a small commuter car makes more sense. In the other 80% of the landmass, people buy trucks first... Then cars after their truck needs are fulfilled.

Just a different perspective. I've recently considered ditching my full sized truck for something more economical, but each time I do, I end up with a job that requires 1500lbs of carrying capacity, or a high clearance 4x4. And it's paid for, so why fix something that ain't broken?

Leanintree

[Mookie]

Yeah, but people don't buy cars by the acre, per landmass.  More people live in cities than anywhere else, so what do you think the majority of Americans are more apt to buy?  A 20 foot long SUV that gets 8 MPG?  A "commuter" car that gets 16 mpg and is considered peppy?  I think not.


This the the death knell that should have happened in the 80's, when this happened the first time.  American automakers have proven themselves incompetent AGAIN, and might finally reap what they've sown.   You'd think they'd have learned something from the last time gas got expensive and they all went bankrupt, but apparently not.


/Not that the G8 isn't a good car, but when the same company is also trying to sell you an Aveo, you know you've got problems with reality.

[Rogue]

You must have missed this..

The loss was due to a non-cash adjustement and a significant decline in GMAC operations.  Its automotive side posted a bunch of key gains:

GM's global automotive operations posted net income of $122 million from continuing operations on an adjusted basis in the third quarter of 2007 (reported net loss of $40.6 billion), an improvement of $577 million compared to an adjusted net loss from continuing operations of $455 million (reported net loss of $401 million) in the same quarter 2006. Results for GM's automotive operations, specifically GMNA, exclude Allison Transmission, which was classified as a discontinued operation as a result of the sale of that business which was concluded in August 2007.

GM generated record third quarter automotive revenue of $43.1 billion. The company also achieved record global third quarter sales of 2.39 million cars and trucks, up four percent compared to the third quarter 2006, driven by exceptionally strong demand in emerging markets and improved performance in developed markets. GM also set a number of third quarter sales records around the globe, including a 22 percent increase in GMLAAM, 16 percent increase in the GMAP region, and 15 percent gain in GME.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=84530&p=irol-earnings

So if we look at its automotive side, they are clearly making some good gains.  But that doesn't really matter to some of you GM haters.  Especially YOU Baldheadeddork the way you love to turn things into negatives.  

Let's keep the subject to muscle cars and not turn this into a political anti-GM rant.  Quite frankly, I'm not interested in it.  

[Mike-H]

The loss was due to a non-cash adjustement and a significant decline in GMAC operations.  Its automotive side posted a bunch of key gains:

GM's global automotive operations posted net income of $122 million from continuing operations on an adjusted basis in the third quarter of 2007 (reported net loss of $40.6 billion), an improvement of $577 million compared to an adjusted net loss from continuing operations of $455 million (reported net loss of $401 million) in the same quarter 2006. Results for GM's automotive operations, specifically GMNA, exclude Allison Transmission, which was classified as a discontinued operation as a result of the sale of that business which was concluded in August 2007.

GM generated record third quarter automotive revenue of $43.1 billion. The company also achieved record global third quarter sales of 2.39 million cars and trucks, up four percent compared to the third quarter 2006, driven by exceptionally strong demand in emerging markets and improved performance in developed markets. GM also set a number of third quarter sales records around the globe, including a 22 percent increase in GMLAAM, 16 percent increase in the GMAP region, and 15 percent gain in GME.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=84530&p=irol-earnings

So if we look at its automotive side, they are clearly making some good gains.  But that doesn't really matter to some of you GM haters.  Especially YOU Baldheadeddork the way you love to turn things into negatives.  

Let's keep the subject to muscle cars and not turn this into a political anti-GM rant.  Quite frankly, I'm not interested in it.  

I'm with Rogue on this ....

[Rogue]

have you looked around you lately?  there are just as many if not many many many more small japanese cars driving around the streets than there are light trucks.  or maybe its just that way here.  I wouldnt be fooled so much my sales figures....,

So you're suggesting that GM and other automakers IGNORE the sales numbers and just go with what "they can see" people are driving?

 

[twist]

/Not that the G8 isn't a good car, but when the same company is also trying to sell you an Aveo, you know you've got problems with reality.

It is good that they offer different cars.  Different people want different cars.  Are you saying that choice is bad?  I'd never buy an Aveo, but I looked at the G8 until I realized they tuned that motor down to only 360hp from the 400hp it's supposed to have.

[Rogue]

Don't be too scared.  The cop versions are usually the V6 and not the Hemi.  I've seen one or two Indiana State Troopers driving unmarked Hemi's, but all the other local popo I've seen with them had the 250 hp 3.5 liter V-6 and not the 340 hp 5.7 liter Hemi V-8 and DEFINITELY not the one in the picture, a 430 hp 6.1 liter Hemi V-8.  You're still relatively safe LOL!

Not long ago I got popped by a Tustin cop and he was driving a Hemi Charger.  I've been programmed to look for Ford Crown Vics so I didn't see his black and white Charger with blacked out wheels sitting there with Radar gun aimed at me!  And I just happened NOT to have my radar with me that time.  Boy!  I was pissed.

What really irked me was when I asked the cop how he liked his charger, he said he loved it.  He then told me about the time when he punched it coming out of a corner and he did a really "cool" powerslide on it!    Oh well.

I don't believe cops need a hemi powered car or a cop car that can go faster than 7 seconds to 60.  I think this is overkill and will lead to bad things with cops abusing all that horsepower.  I also agree that it is a waste of taxpayers dollars to buy, gas up, and maintain a Hemi powered cop car, when 90% of the time, the 250 bhp V6 Charger goes plenty fast at a much lower operating costs.  I mean, when was the last time anyone heard of a cop not being able to catch a runner?  I'm sure it happens.  But, if a cop can't catch a runner on a Crown Victoria/V6 Charger/V6 Impala, then maybe he/she should NOT be giving chase and putting more civilians in harms way!  Let the radio and helicopter do the work.  

[Mookie]

It is good that they offer different cars.  Different people want different cars.  Are you saying that choice is bad?  I'd never buy an Aveo, but I looked at the G8 until I realized they tuned that motor down to only 360hp from the 400hp it's supposed to have.

It's only a good thing if both of those options are remotely decent cars.  One of them might be (the G8) and one of those is a laughingstock.  

Guess which one should be selling to a huge market worth billions around the world?  Yep, the laughingstock POS Aveo.

[UFO]

"Here Is The Next Musclecar"

 

It looks like a nice car.  But puhleaze.

[Rogue]

Guess which one should be selling to a huge market worth billions around the world?  Yep, the laughingstock POS Aveo.

The Aveo?  OMFG!  Those things are NOT worth billions in revenue even around the world.  They probably have $200 profit margines and maybe $500 to the manufacturer for each car they sell.  

Maybe if you lived in the city of Buenos Aires or Costa Rica or some little place like that with narrow streets and hyper-expensive gas.  Imagine driving an Aveo on the streets of anytown USA.  It's too small!  And god help you if you get hit by a full size pick up or SUV or even a big Minivan.  I've owned little cars.  They suck and everyone bullies you.  I've also gotten hit by a lowly "little" HOnda Accord while driving our little car and that mid size sedan squished our little car!  No thanks!  Been there done that.  

The sporty ones are fun to drive and very economical.  I think the Honda Fit is cute and so is the Mini.  But they're just not my cup of tea.  

[Rogue]

 

It looks like a nice car.  But puhleaze.

Say it!  SAY IT!

You still have that Acura TL?

[Mookie]

The Aveo?  OMFG!  Those things are NOT worth billions in revenue even around the world.  They probably have $200 profit margines and maybe $500 to the manufacturer for each car they sell.  

Maybe if you lived in the city of Buenos Aires or Costa Rica or some little place like that with narrow streets and hyper-expensive gas.  Imagine driving an Aveo on the streets of anytown USA.  It's too small!  And god help you if you get hit by a full size pick up or SUV or even a big Minivan.  I've owned little cars.  They suck and everyone bullies you.  I've also gotten hit by a lowly "little" HOnda Accord while driving our little car and that mid size sedan squished our little car!  No thanks!  Been there done that.  

The sporty ones are fun to drive and very economical.  I think the Honda Fit is cute and so is the Mini.  But they're just not my cup of tea.  

OK, you missed my point.  Yes, the Aveo is a shitty car.   My point was, that if any car maker wants to actually make money in this world, they are going to have to sell good small cars that people will actually want.

That is the end of the story.  Seriously.  The end. Of. The Story.

I know you don't like small cars, that's ok, you also like V8 muscle cars in the age of 5 buck a gallon gas.  Face it, you ain't exactly representative of the global or national market.  It's fine to have a couple of niche cars (big or fast or whatever), but those are going to bring in exactly less than zero dollars to any company that tries to sell them at a reasonable price.  They might make for some good commercials, but that's about it.

[gforce]

Detroit generally is hoping against hope that they'll be able to find another low-tech, hi-margin product to replace the giant enclosed-pickups-with-leather-and-climate-control SUV's they milked at the expense of real R&D for the last 20 years, while the rest of the industry was working on hybrids, common-rail diesels and AWD.

And now, in the ultimate insult, Toyota is coming after the last bastion: the big pickup.  With a better product.

I don't hate GM; I held their stock for too long waiting for them to get their shit together.  In their defense, it has to be said that Detroit hasn't sunk without a passive assist from the feds, who have failed to raise CAFE standards because it wasn't politically expedient to do so.  

But IMO it's actually going to get worse before it gets better, because the rest of the world is ready to pounce with well-developed products as really high fuel cost finally reaches us, while Detroit has been languishing in the past.  To me, Chrysler got a big boost when it had the opportunity to "peek over Daimler's engineering shoulder" for the past few years -- after all, the 300C/Charger are on last-generation Merc 300 platforms.  But now that's gone and the investors are back in charge, killing models like the Pacifica.  Totally the wrong direction.

These new retro musclecars are symptomatic that Detroit just hasn't gotten the memo yet.  They'll spend a bunch on focus groups, styling and sex-appeal marketing, then bring these really average cars to market at prices way too high for their value and then sell but a few units.  Think T-Bird, Prowler, SSR, to cover all the mfrs.

It's a shame that the whole industry has done such a lousy job.  But it's true.

[baldheadeddork]

So if we look at its automotive side, they are clearly making some good gains.  But that doesn't really matter to some of you GM haters.  Especially YOU Baldheadeddork the way you love to turn things into negatives.  

Let's keep the subject to muscle cars and not turn this into a political anti-GM rant.  Quite frankly, I'm not interested in it.  

You quoted a GM press release. Big surprise that pig is going to have a lot of lipstick on it.

Look, every time you post some bullshit and get called on it you come back that I'm just being negative or a (whatever) hater. GM lost a quarter billion dollars in the last quarter on its North American auto operations. That's the bottom line. They're not, as you claimed, "returning to profitability". Nor are they making good gains in market share, which is still around 25%. GM still has almost 80 days of inventory sitting on dealer lots, almost twice the excess inventory of Toyota and more than twice the inventory of Honda, and far more than all of the German makes.

The G8 "muscle car"? Looks a lot like the POS G6 I've been stuck with a few times at the rental counter. Not a smart move for a halo car. I bet the Caddy CTS will outsell it by at least 4:1.

[Rogue]

Look, every time you post some bullshit and get called on it you come back that I'm just being negative or a (whatever) hater. GM lost a quarter billion dollars in the last quarter on its North American auto operations. That's the bottom line. They're not, as you claimed, "returning to profitability".

GM was profitable last quarter and had to post a non-cash transaction that pulled their numbers down THIS quarter.  Their autmotive group IS posting good gains.  But I guess the link I posted didn't mean anything to YOU because all YOU want to see is for GM to go down.  Everytime I post something automotive YOU come back with some egghead negative-shit.  And you wonder why I say you're negative?  Because you ARE!

I posted a thread about the G8 and how did you respond to it?  It's a POS and look! GM is going down and and I have the numbers and the articles to prove my point.  Did any of your posts have much content on musclecars or the G8?  Nope.  Because it was overshadowed by your constant egghead negative-shit.  

GM posts a NON-Cash transaction to adjust their books, doesn't see the income they expected from their GMAC operations, and you just jump all over that like fly on shit.  Are you some kind of Financial wizard and know all this stuff?  Last I heard you drove a truck around delivering shit.  If you are so damn smart, you oughta be working for a Forbes 500 company!  So please, go back to Politics where you can pump yourself up some more.

[Rogue]

OK, you missed my point.  Yes, the Aveo is a shitty car.   My point was, that if any car maker wants to actually make money in this world, they are going to have to sell good small cars that people will actually want.

My point is people don't WANT good small cars.  Sales numbers show they BUY light trucks and mid-size cars by a great majority.

[twist]

Ok, back on track.  I think American muscle-cars (with the exception of the Corvette) have been replaced by the Germans, with things like MB E55/E63, BMW M5 and Audi RS6.  Sure, they are more expensive, but they are also faster.  Isn't faster all that matters?  

This is faster than the G8, or a Charger R/T.  It's barely slower than the Corvette (and makes more power):

[Mookie]

My point is people don't WANT good small cars.  Sales numbers show they BUY light trucks and mid-size cars by a great majority.

And what part of any car that you've advocated for has been either one of those?  I'll give you that people want midsize cars.  SUV's are completely passe now.  People are switching to crossovers, which are basically midsize sedans.

SUV sales figes are down, about 20% for the year, you think they are going to recover while the price of gas continues to rise?

Midsize turns to Small size mighty quickly when gas is over $3.50 a gallon.  Seriously, gas is more expensive than it ever has been in history.  There was a time similar to this and guess what happened?  The Japanese managed to produce a bunch of fuel efficient, reliable cars while the American companies made giant bloated crap, then eventually they managed to make a Chevelle ( ) .  Now Toyota is the number 1 automaker in the country.  What's changed between then and now?  Pretty much nothing.  The Japanese are making even better MORE fuel efficient inexpensive cars that are selling like hotcakes and the Americans and still trying to sell their bloated V8 7000 pound trucks to commuters.

Sure the G8 might be a decent performer for the price but it's hardly going to make GM a winner on anything besides their own press releases.

Frankly, I 'm surprised this dead man has walked this far.

[Rogue]

Sure the G8 might be a decent performer for the price but it's hardly going to make GM a winner on anything besides their own press releases.

Frankly, I 'm surprised this dead man has walked this far.

The G8 is NOT designed to make GM a winner.  I never said that on any of my posts.  GM has already conceded that Toyota & Honda holds the key to continued, long term profitability in N.A. because they both own the mid-size car market.  This is why GM has invested a ton of R&D on their new mid-size car that is suppose to put GM back market share they lost:  The 2008 Chevrolet Malibu.  They also addressed the light truck market with their new family of pick ups.  

And yes you are right.  The SUV and minivan markets are in a decline.  Again, GM has released a family of crossover vehicles to address this and have a product for a new growing market.  

Listen, I don't want to debate the car market in this thread.  But you and many others are surprised that GM is still alive.  People here go all over the internet and site numbers that show GM's losses then use those to support their case about GM going under.  They did this in prior years.  Many predicted GM would die "real soon", yet the giant keeps walking.  Why?  This is because it takes more than a few years of Financial Statement losses to actually bring a conglomerate the size of GM down.  Just because GM took a loss this quarter doesn't mean they're going down.  The financial health of a company as complex and large as GM is beyond just quarterly earnings.  Daimler just took a huge loss this quarter too.  Does that mean they're going down?  Does that mean they have no idea what they're doing in the automotive industry?  You can't use the excuse that Daimler is not building cars people want to buy can you?  Yet they're not profitable lately.  You see what I mean?

Here's another point that escapes many people.  GM owns Subaru and Saab, and currently owns part of Kia.  These manufacturers makes nothing but small and mid-size cars.  So if you were to put them under the GM umbrella, technically, GM is NOT ignoring the small car market are they?  You're just not seeing too many small cars with a GM badge.  But if you want to know, GM has the Aveo, the Cobalt, Saturn Ion and now the Saturn Astra.  Now let's get back to musclecars.

[Mookie]

I think the new M3 is pretty awesome.  

[twist]

I think the new M3 is pretty awesome.  

Meh.  You're better off getting a 335 and chipping it, and then replacing the rear diff with a limited slip.

[Mookie]

I think the sounds of a V8 revving to 8500 rpm would be difficult to replace.

[Rogue]

Ok, back on track.  I think American muscle-cars (with the exception of the Corvette) have been replaced by the Germans, with things like MB E55/E63, BMW M5 and Audi RS6.  Sure, they are more expensive, but they are also faster.  Isn't faster all that matters?  

Musclecars also need to be affordable.  

[Rogue]

Meh.  You're better off getting a 335 and chipping it, and then replacing the rear diff with a limited slip.

Agree.  The 335 will be so much more comfy.  It's no slouche either.

But then, they just released the M3 with V8 so.....

[greench440]

I'm with you Mookie. Seriously looking at the new V8 powered M3 or the soon to reach the market C63.  I think my desire for 2 doors is going to steer me to Munich.  Walked into the dealer with cash in hand to get a 335i convertible and left with my cash after a test drive.  Just a little underwhelming and you can't fit a set of clubs in the trunk.  Modding your new 335 is a great way to void the warranty, or at the very least have a heated argument anytime you have a problem.

Rogue said: Their autmotive group IS posting good gains.

Not according to this analysis of October's numbers.  http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=6202

[baldheadeddork]

Listen, I don't want to debate the car market in this thread.  But you and many others are surprised that GM is still alive.  People here go all over the internet and site numbers that show GM's losses then use those to support their case about GM going under.  They did this in prior years.  Many predicted GM would die "real soon", yet the giant keeps walking.  Why?  This is because it takes more than a few years of Financial Statement losses to actually bring a conglomerate the size of GM down.  Just because GM took a loss this quarter doesn't mean they're going down.  The financial health of a company as complex and large as GM is beyond just quarterly earnings.  Daimler just took a huge loss this quarter too.  Does that mean they're going down?  Does that mean they have no idea what they're doing in the automotive industry?  You can't use the excuse that Daimler is not building cars people want to buy can you?  Yet they're not profitable lately.  You see what I mean?

I'm one of the biggest GM critics but I've never, ever said they were going under. I don't know anyone who is paying close attention to the industry that is saying that.

The problem with GM is that they are the largest automaker in the world, for the moment at least, but they make some a lot of the most mediocre cars on the planet. They are everything people say they despise about large government bureaucracies. Where is the passion in the product that Fiat, another conglomerate with its own problems, can seem to create with a snap of their fingers? Where is the leadership that we've seen at Renault in the last fifteen years? Where, specifically, is the BSD attitude that Bob Lutz was supposed get out of cars just like the G8? What excuse does the worlds largest automaker have for consistently making these horribly boring, mediocre cars?

This G8 is going to be a good example. It doesn't have the retro styling that made everyone else's nouveau musclecars successful, it aspires to be a BMW-M or AMG but at $30K its going to come off like an ox cart. And it looks like every other horrible shitbox in the Pontiac lineup. Why the hell would you make your halo car look so much like those awful G6's that fill up rental fleets?

Here's another point that escapes many people.  GM owns Subaru and Saab, and currently owns part of Kia.  These manufacturers makes nothing but small and mid-size cars.  So if you were to put them under the GM umbrella, technically, GM is NOT ignoring the small car market are they?  

Except GM sold its 20% share in Subaru, some of it to Toyota, two years ago.

Saab is a niche player and GM would love to be rid of it. It's been a sinkhole from the day Rick Wagoner bought it, they sold just 130,000 cars worldwide last year and they'll be lucky to hit that for 2007. There were rumors last summer that GM was shopping Saab to Renault and a Chinese consortium, but they couldn't find a taker.

GM bought Saab as a defensive move when Ford was buying up Jaguar, Range Rover, Aston-Martin and Volvo. The plan was to develop Saab as a more upscale brand that could go head-to-head against BMW and Mercedes, but then the SUV cash cow dropped dead and that plan was DOA not long after. Now Saab is a division that no one in GM seems to know what to do with. Its platforms don't line up well with other GM high-end models, it hasn't been adapted for lower-market models (like Ford has done, pretty successfully, with Volvo) and they don't have the money to keep Saab competitive in the rapidly growing near-luxury market.

Also, GM does not own Kia. They own a 44% stake in Daewoo, which failed in the US market. Kia is owned entirely by Hyundai.

[twist]

Agree.  The 335 will be so much more comfy.  It's no slouche either.

But then, they just released the M3 with V8 so.....

I think Mookie was talking about the E92 M3, the new one with the V8.  While the V8 is going to sound better, a chipped 335 will be faster, and I think is also lighter.  You'd just need a limited slip differential to beat the M3.  Both cars are kinda small inside though.  They are too small inside to be luxury cars, but too heavy to be true sports cars.  They keep getting porkier every generation.

Look at the new Audi A4 (B8) - it's lighter than the B7.  Now that's an improvement.  And rumors are that the new S4 will lose the heavy V8 and be replaced by a turbo six again, like the B5 S4 had.

[Mookie]

Personally I'd rather have a Cayenne or the Turbo 1 series if I was going to go the midlife crisis 2 seater route.


That new v8 M3 might sound awesome but it only gets 11mpg

[baldheadeddork]

Personally I'd rather have a Cayenne or the Turbo 1 series if I was going to go the midlife crisis 2 seater route.


That new v8 M3 might sound awesome but it only gets 11mpg

If you're going to have a midlife crisis and drop $60K on a toy car, why not do it right?



That, by the way, is a 400hp Atom that ran the quarter mile in under 10.5 seconds.

[Mookie]

Cars that wheelie are pretty cool  

[twist]

That new v8 M3 might sound awesome but it only gets 11mpg

My car gets less.  When looking for a fun car, I don't care what milage I can get out of it.

[Motornoggin]

Yup.  The Evil Conglomerate is just eager to please everyone.  The Pontiac G8 goes on sale.  Already seen the ads in the moto-mags.

http://www.pontiac.com/g8/index.jsp

Damn good looking car!

I had been lamenting the demise of the GTO before I could scrape enough nickels together, but now I think this will buy me some time and maybe even a better car.

Sweet!

[Stickman]

I think Mookie was talking about the E92 M3, the new one with the V8.  While the V8 is going to sound better, a chipped 335 will be faster, and I think is also lighter.  You'd just need a limited slip differential to beat the M3.  Both cars are kinda small inside though.  They are too small inside to be luxury cars, but too heavy to be true sports cars.  They keep getting porkier every generation.

Look at the new Audi A4 (B8) - it's lighter than the B7.  Now that's an improvement.  And rumors are that the new S4 will lose the heavy V8 and be replaced by a turbo six again, like the B5 S4 had.

I'm not sure, but I THINK the new M3's V8 is lighter than the plant it replaced, and the car itself is considerably lighter than the 335 due to extensive use of CF in body panels, etc.  That new M3 is in th mid-high 4 second range to 60mph

[atypical1]

Ok, back on track.  I think American muscle-cars (with the exception of the Corvette) have been replaced by the Germans, with things like MB E55/E63, BMW M5 and Audi RS6.  Sure, they are more expensive, but they are also faster.  Isn't faster all that matters?  

This is faster than the G8, or a Charger R/T.  It's barely slower than the Corvette (and makes more power):

No offense but I think that you are mixing muscle cars with sports cars. The Corvette was never a muscle car. It was designed as a sports car to compete with the European cars.

A muscle car has a big engine and is built for straight line speed as opposed to corner speed (think drag strip not mountain road). Traditionally it needs to be pretty simple in construction to make it easy to work on but part of that tradition is because of the era they were built.

It appears that muscle cars are not going to be coming back anytime soon. I mean there have been some attempts but nothing like in their heyday. It would appear that the tuner car has taken the place of the muscle car. I think that is a shame because nothing sounds as good as a big block V8.

james

[Rogue]

It appears that muscle cars are not going to be coming back anytime soon. I mean there have been some attempts but nothing like in their heyday. It would appear that the tuner car has taken the place of the muscle car. I think that is a shame because nothing sounds as good as a big block V8.

james

James, Chrysler plans to bring in the Challenger (as pictured).  GM is also gearing up to produce the Camaro and its Firebird equivalent in 2009.  Basically, the success of the Mustang (with its modernized Musclecar chassis and powertrain) prompted those models above.  The difference is that Chrysler wants to use an Independent Rear Suspension for the Challenger, which creates an issue with pricing.  Chrysler is not able to offer their cars at the price points comparable to the Mustang IF they use IRS.  The cost of the IRS puts the pricing towards the 30k+, basically where the current GTO and G8's are.

[atypical1]

See, $30k is the wrong price point. It needs to be cheaper than that to get young enthusiasts involved. The trouble with muscle cars being that expensive is that they end up being bought solely by older drivers. They need a cheap muscle car that is affordable.

james

[Rogue]

Agree.  That's not going to happen anymore though.

But do you remember the days of the musclecars though?  60's-70's?  I wasn't old enough but what was the age group that bought those cars?  I'll be it was the same as who's buying them now.

Back in those days, young people ended up inheriting older cars.  But older cars in those days had V8's and RWD!  So, it was easy enough to make a musclecar out of a daily driver.  For example, I inherited a Dodge Dart Swinger!  Oh boy!  Later, I bought a Dodge Coronet Superbee for a mere $1500!  You can't find those cars today at anything like those prices!  Because most cars today are FWD with a V6 or I-4, these are the types of cars kids today get, along with the ricer-type cars of course.  

Realistically, the "musclecars" for the young lie in cars like the Dodge Caliber SRT-4, Chevrolet Cobalt SS, Honda Civic Si, Toyota Corolla S, Mazda 3, etc.  The upper end of that scale is the Mustang V6--the only model that can trace its roots to the original Mustang.  In the case of the Dodge Caliber SRT-4, it has the muscle to match the musclecars of today.  Pricing for these cars range from $16k to $22k new.  

[phoenix]

Agree.  That's not going to happen anymore though.

But do you remember the days of the musclecars though?  60's-70's?  I wasn't old enough but what was the age group that bought those cars?  I'll be it was the same as who's buying them now.

I can't say for sure, but I thought the 60's and 70's muscle cars were priced for the younger crowd. And they did this by selling the cars as being pretty well stripped of any frills - it was really just a big honkin' engine, a chassis and a set of wheels. Today's sportcars  are overloaded with extras that just add up to a big price. I have a 2007 Mustang with the V6, and I could easily have lived without some of the upgrades on it, but this is how Ford packaged this package (Pony car package) and then they put some healthy incentives on it to get them sold.

Getting back to the G8 or whatever that car is....I suspect it will have mediocre appeal, it will fail to meet their sales targets much like the GTO, and it will be gone in a few years. It just looks too conservative. I do like what they have planned for the Camaro, but they are the last ones to that party.

[twist]

Getting back to the G8 or whatever that car is....I suspect it will have mediocre appeal, it will fail to meet their sales targets much like the GTO, and it will be gone in a few years. It just looks too conservative. I do like what they have planned for the Camaro, but they are the last ones to that party.

I don't think the G8 is supposed to be a muscle car.  I think it's supposed to be competition for European sedans, much like the Caddillac CTS is.  If they can keep the quality up and the price down, the G8 will probably sell well to the people who want a sport sedan, but don't want to pay German prices.

[Rogue]

Why didn't you just get the GT?  

The musclecars of the 60's-70's were mostly stripped of any "frills".  But then again, most cars back in those days did NOT have much options either.  For example, PW, PD, PS, PB were fairly rare back in the 60's.  Even AC were mostly optional in the 70's.  I don't believe leather was even an option.  Anyway, I only became "aware" of the Musclecar craze in the latter half of the 70's.  I do remember my neighbors had a '70 'Cuda 440-6 with pistol grip 4-speed and that car didn't even have power assisted brakes, much less AC.  However, they also had a '69 Ford Mach 1  and that car was loaded up with AC, PS, PB, and automatic tranny.  I remember the owner telling me the 'Cuda didn't come any other way.  So maybe some models were loaded up and others were strippers.

GM plans to put Cadillac to all RWD in the near future.  Pontiac also wants to have mostly RWD on their cars and the Holden platform would be the one they would use.  I think the fact that it has 4-doors will increase its chances better than the GTO has.

[atypical1]

So maybe some models were loaded up and others were strippers.

Dude, if GM cars came with strippers then I would be all over it!  

 

james

[Leanintree]

Why didn't you just get the GT?  

The musclecars of the 60's-70's were mostly stripped of any "frills".  {snip}  So maybe some models were loaded up and others were strippers.

Unfortunately, it's TOUGH to get a stripper model ANYTHING in in the U.S. today (with the exception of a couple of the bargain-basement marques that are first and foremost *budget* vehicles). When I purchased my truck, I had to order it from the factory with an 8-week wait to avoid unnecessary frills. I haunted every dealership in a 200 mile radius, and not one of them had the truck I wanted. Every piece of dealer stock had one of the 3 top trim levels, with prices to match. I never saw a single manual transmission. Heck when I ordered, the manual trans was a 'delete auto' option.

If you're willing to wait, and choose your options carefully for their value to you, I imagine you could still  concievably build a stripper. But you'd have to go about it from the opposite end... Deleting things you don't want, not starting with a clean slate to add to.

Leanintree

[Rogue]

Dude, if GM cars came with strippers then I would be all over it!  

 

james

Yes but will your wife approve?  

[Mookie]

Take your negativity back to P.O. where it belongs. Jesus.

Says the jackass who just popped in from PO to insult someone  

[baldheadeddork]

I can't say for sure, but I thought the 60's and 70's muscle cars were priced for the younger crowd. And they did this by selling the cars as being pretty well stripped of any frills - it was really just a big honkin' engine, a chassis and a set of wheels.

I wouldn't say they were priced for the younger crowd. Look at the first-year GTO. The GTO option for the Tempest cost $296, but that was the equal to just under $1900 in today's money. The Tri-Power that debuted for the Goat's second year was an additional $116, which is $728 today.

The base price for a '66 GTO was $18K in today's money. That's not out of reach for an entry-level buyer, but it was rare to see someone under 25 with a new muscle car because it was so much harder for young people to get credit. A lot more kids hot rodded ten year-old Chevy's and the like than bought new GTO's and Mustangs. You could buy a third-hand 55-57 Chevy in the early and mid 60's for well under five hundred dollars and turn it into a strong-running hot rod for just a few hundred more.

[phoenix]

Why didn't you just get the GT?  

With the incentives on the Pony car, it was probably at least $5000 less than a GT. And then the insurance was going to be higher, worse fuel economy, but of course more HP. Not that I needed that. Actually, I love the looks of this car, especially with some of the Pony car-only options. but that may just be me.

[Rogue]

Oh I love the looks of the Mustang.  Worlds better than the prior model.  This new one is unmistakable for what it is.  Ford got this car right out of the box.  They stuck with the live axle rear suspension even after the Road & Track types (most people here) bitched about its effects on handling.  People always want more and more and when they get more then realize they have to pay for it, they go buy a fookin' Corolla or Civic because that's what they can really afford.

[baldheadeddork]

With the incentives on the Pony car, it was probably at least $5000 less than a GT. And then the insurance was going to be higher, worse fuel economy, but of course more HP. Not that I needed that. Actually, I love the looks of this car, especially with some of the Pony car-only options. but that may just be me.

That's the way it was back then, too. Six-cylinder Mustangs have always outsold V8's by massive margins.

By the way, if anyone is interested in a very clean, unrestored 65 Mustang Convertible with an original 289 - let me know. My neighbor is selling one that belonged to her late husband.

[phoenix]

By the way, if anyone is interested in a very clean, unrestored 65 Mustang Convertible with an original 289 - let me know. My neighbor is selling one that belonged to her late husband.

wow, that's weird...a neighbor of mine bought an unrestored 65 Mustang with a 289 (but I believe its a hardtop) about a month ago from the estate of some man who recently passed away.

[baldheadeddork]

Annie's husband died fourteen years ago and she's only driven it once or twice a year since.

[livetoride]

How can a musclecar have 4 doors?  This is hotter:

Like this.. 4 doors and a whole can of whoop ass!!

[greench440]

Like this.. 4 doors and a whole can of whoop ass!!

Wow, that red X kicks some ass!!

[rgbeard]

Like this.. 4 doors and a whole can of whoop ass!!

Sorry - I don't get it - where's door 3 and 4?

[livetoride]

I am horrible with MS paint but there are 2 doors per side.. 4 total
-Peter

[livetoride]

Wow, that red X kicks some ass!!

[greench440]

Just think how much faster the Challenger is going to be when the give it the SRT8 treatmemt.

[gregc]

Most of the profit is outside of the US market, notice all mention is Non North American market growth. They still sell the same shit here.  Notice it says nothing about United States or North American sales, just about global sales.  They are losing ground in North America.

The loss was due to a non-cash adjustement and a significant decline in GMAC operations.  Its automotive side posted a bunch of key gains:

GM's global automotive operations posted net income of $122 million from continuing operations on an adjusted basis in the third quarter of 2007 (reported net loss of $40.6 billion), an improvement of $577 million compared to an adjusted net loss from continuing operations of $455 million (reported net loss of $401 million) in the same quarter 2006. Results for GM's automotive operations, specifically GMNA, exclude Allison Transmission, which was classified as a discontinued operation as a result of the sale of that business which was concluded in August 2007.

GM generated record third quarter automotive revenue of $43.1 billion. The company also achieved record global third quarter sales of 2.39 million cars and trucks, up four percent compared to the third quarter 2006, driven by exceptionally strong demand in emerging markets and improved performance in developed markets. GM also set a number of third quarter sales records around the globe, including a 22 percent increase in GMLAAM, 16 percent increase in the GMAP region, and 15 percent gain in GME.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=84530&p=irol-earnings

So if we look at its automotive side, they are clearly making some good gains.  But that doesn't really matter to some of you GM haters.  Especially YOU Baldheadeddork the way you love to turn things into negatives.  

Let's keep the subject to muscle cars and not turn this into a political anti-GM rant.  Quite frankly, I'm not interested in it.  

[Flyer]

Sorry all.  
I've been lucky enough to own a few musclecars, 'cause I grew up in the era.
There is a much smaller pool of talent these days of people willing to ante up $30K-$40K for a vehicle that gets 15 city/25 highway at $4 plus/gallon and $100/tankful.
Many of us are too young to remember the impact of gasoline shortages, and have no clue the impact of oil shortages. The developing world is "developing" an insatiable thirst for the automobile themselves, and our finite supply of oil is going to have it's price bid MUCH higher, some predict within the next 5 years. That's the term of financing for a large majority of the population.
Of course the rich won't care, but I hardly think they're considering the purchase of a new Camaro...
Promising new power technology is still a long way off, and has lots of issues to overcome, not the least of which is infrastructure, cold weather driveability, range etc.
I therefore propose for your consideration, the NEXT MUSCLECAR will look a lot like this:

Contrary opinions to follow...

[windsorgreen1]

 I had to fill up the wiper fluid on the Grand Prix, and I was shocked to see a V6 under there. I thought it was a four banger with really shitty mileage.

So you bought a car w/o know what motor it had in it & you expect anyone to take your view on cars seriously ?  

[killerST6]

Meh,
To me the last true Ram Air has not been equaled nor will it from the looks of it.
Here is mine and I have a true 440RWHP with more on the table if I want to add it, all NA, no nos or power adders just good ole HP.

[Real Bad Attitude]

Meh,
To me the last true Ram Air has not been equaled nor will it from the looks of it.
Here is mine and I have a true 440RWHP with more on the table if I want to add it, all NA, no nos or power adders just good ole HP.

Let's get that and my WRX out once the snow starts to fly. Or on a nice wet road. See you later.

[killerST6]

it does not snow in Ga (not my part anyway   )
WRXs are ok, all wheel drive of course is aways a plus on the dirt or wet roads. but you comparison is very biased, that would be like me saying ok see you at the track or on the autobahn LOL!

[Real Bad Attitude]

it does not snow in Ga (not my part anyway   )
WRXs are ok, all wheel drive of course is aways a plus on the dirt or wet roads. but you comparison is very biased, that would be like me saying ok see you at the track or on the autobahn LOL!

On the track I bet it would be closer then you think. Remember while the Trans Am is smoling those tires, the WRX will be launching like something you wont believe. I can't get the thing to break loose, even on a wet surface. The autobahn, well I'll be looking at your taillights quickly fading away.

[Joey Stalin]

Let's get that and my WRX out once the snow starts to fly. Or on a nice wet road. See you later.

On a different topic entirely, I looked at the EPA numbers for the new WRX... 19 city/24 highway. I'm seeing a real 19 city/25 highway with my Pontiac GTO, a car not too different than the new G8. I'm probably late to the thread on this topic, but I think it's interesting that people are quick to lambast a car like the G8 for fuel economy but only a rare few are going to denigrate the WRX for causing the decline of Western civilization.

(though both cars need to do better, imo)

[Rogue]

On a different topic entirely, I looked at the EPA numbers for the new WRX... 19 city/24 highway. I'm seeing a real 19 city/25 highway with my Pontiac GTO, a car not too different than the new G8. I'm probably late to the thread on this topic, but I think it's interesting that people are quick to lambast a car like the G8 for fuel economy but only a rare few are going to denigrate the WRX for causing the decline of Western civilization.

Because this board is full of American Car/Musclecar haters.  

I'll give you a better example:  Lexus sells their hybrid flagship, which has a powerful V8 in it.  Well, real world testing shows this car to give around 15 mpg mixed driving.  Even if I gave it the benefit of the doubt and say it probably gets something like 20 mpg overall under normal driving, it's a hybrid!  20mpg for a hybrid car that costs over $100k should be criminal!  But it's a Lexus so I guess that's okay.    If GM or Ford were to build that the haters on this board would be all over that.

Bottom line is power doesn't come cheap, and power and economy rarely go hand in hand.  You don't need to look any further than our own motorcycles to prove that point!  There are cars out there with larger engines that get better mileage than many high performance bikes.  Those who say they want mileage and high performance are usually just dreamers.  Just because it has less than 3 liters and came from Japan doesn't mean it's going to get great mileage.

[Real Bad Attitude]

Didn't mention anything about m.p.g., just traction.  

[Rogue]

I didn't mean you.

In any case, I do like the WRX's.  Except for that weird sounding exhaust.

[Real Bad Attitude]

I didn't mean you.

In any case, I do like the WRX's.  Except for that weird sounding exhaust.

Ohh man it sounds and feels cool. That boxer 4 cyclinder. But I still have the OEM exhaust system on. Don't care for those fart cans.

[Mookie]

I think those WRXs/STi's sound sick with a burbley exhaust       Way better than any other four banger.  Better than most v6's too.  

[killerST6]

Didn't mention anything about m.p.g., just traction.  

LOL Wait...
You little light weight 4 banger gets bad MPG?
My car at 3600lbs with 440rwhp gets 25mph in mixed city and highway and I have gotten 30mpg many times doing 80 on the interstate tank to tank (yes it is a 6 speed and that was with the cruise set at 80)

[Real Bad Attitude]

LOL Wait...
You little light weight 4 banger gets bad MPG?
My car at 3600lbs with 440rwhp gets 25mph in mixed city and highway and I have gotten 30mpg many times doing 80 on the interstate tank to tank (yes it is a 6 speed and that was with the cruise set at 80)

I'm sure I can get better M.P.G., but I like the feel of the boost coming on . And not to get into a blast fest, but I find it hard to believe that a car with 440 rear wheel horse power will give you 25 m.p.g. even all freeway driving. Just my opinion. Unless it's on a trailer.

[killerST6]

Nor do I want a flame war, but she does get 25 mixed driving and even better all interstate

Now if you start asking the Auto guys they do not get near as good, just the M6s. I also use HP Tuners and do all of my tuning myself.

[Real Bad Attitude]

Nor do I want a flame war, but she does get 25 mixed driving and even better all interstate

Now if you start asking the Auto guys they do not get near as good, just the M6s. I also use HP Tuners and do all of my tuning myself.

Wow very cool.

[Walker]

it does not snow in Ga (not my part anyway   )

Dude, I remember VERY well it snowing while I was in Ranger School at Ft. Benning, just down the road from you in Columbus, also I remember the snow in the mountain phase at Dahlonega, GA.... It snows in GA  

[Walker]

How can a musclecar have 4 doors?  This is hotter:

Hey, if only thay make that car in white, then Hollywood can remake Vanishing Point... I wonder who'd play Kowalski?  

[DogBoy]

Hey, if only thay make that car in white, then Hollywood can remake Vanishing Point... I wonder who'd play Kowalski?  

No one could replace Barry Newman; which means Nicholas Cage would make another truly unwatchable movie.

[Walker]

No one could replace Barry Newman; which means Nicholas Cage would make another truly unwatchable movie.

I think that they'd use Will Smith, and unstead of 70's rock music soundtrack, it would have hip-hop and rap.

Hey, if Will can replay Charlton Heston's role in the Omega Man, why not?

Damn, I should be a Hollywood producer, I'd make millions  

[mcoyote]

*shrugs -- our Saturn just turned 10yrs old. Oil changes, one alternator (I did), I think we've replaced the battery once, and -- oh -- had the alignment worked on a couple times because my wife has a thing for curbs in the rain. We bought it new, and it was the first joint purchase of our marriage.

Not saying it's special -- it's ugly and filthy -- but it's an American car and it's no slouch.

American car markers? Well...really. They do lack vision, and their costs -- even after shoving as much as they can off-shore or over-border -- are still extremely high. We blame them for the former, they blame us for the latter (this idea of a fair wage and health care), but both are true.

FWIW, The only cars that stir or interest me are impractical and (normally) stupid expensive. If it comes with more than two doors and isn't a rehabilitated military HMMV, I'm not ever going to be interested. Our kids use our car as a second home, playground, and a dumpster, so chances are this is for the best.

[mcoyote]

...There are cars out there with larger engines that get better mileage than many high performance bikes.  Those who say they want mileage and high performance are usually just dreamers.  Just because it has less than 3 liters and came from Japan doesn't mean it's going to get great mileage...

That I would doubt. Not calling you a liar, I just doubt it. My 'Busa could do 50mpg and at its absolute worst, 35mpg. The R1 never drops below 30mpg, and that's some high-RPM, ramp-roosting, stop-n-go riding. From what I can see of all-gas, compact sports cars, their real-world economy is ~18-24mpg (way south of EPA ratings, BTW).