What's better for improving skills?

[phoenix]

Hope this isn't a repeat.


I'm wondering what people think is a better approach to improving street riding skills. Seems to me like it might be a toss-up between doing some track days or doing some dirt riding.

Whatever you think, please specify what kind of bike you would suggest. Personally, I haven't done either, and was thinking about picking up a bike dedicated for one or the other. Maybe a 250 or 500 Ninja for track duties, or maybe something like a TTR230 for some dirt riding.

I realize for some people, dirt riding is probably very easy to do, as it might literally be right in your own back yard. Not so for me.

[garry]

For improving street skills, I'll go with track days because the track skills are the same as the street skills (aside from situaltional awareness on the street). All the body position, braking, moving around on the bike, smooth control inputs, etc you hone on the track apply directly to the street. You'll KNOW that you can lean that bitch over more when surprised by a decreasing radius corner and it will be no big deal. Maybe even fun. Lots of people will panic, stand the bike up and attempt to stop before crashing. You'll just slide a cheek off the seat, look at the exit and roll on the gas.

Riding dirt is lots of fun, but the form is exactly opposite to what you want to do on the street. On the other hand though, riding dirt will make you comfy with both ends of the bike sliding around and doing wheelies. They're both good, but if I had to pick one, I'd pick track days.

[Nesbocaj]

  A good police chase

[Lon]

They're both good, but if I had to pick one, I'd pick track days.

What he said.

[Specter]

I'd opt for a track school. Pay someone who knows to show you how.

[Husky23]

Situational Awareness.

[With_him]

MSF - ERC course.  A good review never hurts.  Other than that, I say seat time.  Track days can be fun, that is a decidedly controlled environment where you are pushing the bike and yourself much further than you ever would on the street.

If you want to practice something work on your mental scanning to avoid situations before they turn into accidents and require emergency braking or worse.  In the moments when you need it most, you will likely have only milliseconds to identify and react.

Just my two cents.

[Against The Wind]

For improving street skills, I'll go with track days because the track skills are the same as the street skills (aside from situaltional awareness on the street). All the body position, braking, moving around on the bike, smooth control inputs, etc you hone on the track apply directly to the street. You'll KNOW that you can lean that bitch over more when surprised by a decreasing radius corner and it will be no big deal. Maybe even fun. Lots of people will panic, stand the bike up and attempt to stop before crashing. You'll just slide a cheek off the seat, look at the exit and roll on the gas.

Riding dirt is lots of fun, but the form is exactly opposite to what you want to do on the street. On the other hand though, riding dirt will make you comfy with both ends of the bike sliding around and doing wheelies. They're both good, but if I had to pick one, I'd pick track days.

 

[Windblown]

Trackdays will make you a better "fast" rider as you learn a new definition for "smooth" and learn how far your bike can be pushed.

Dirt riding will make you more comfortable with a loose bike and is great throttle control practice.
 
Practicing street skills similar to those taught in an ERC course will make you a better and safer rider on the street.

They can all have application on the street. But for a legal riding pace I don't think anything beats quality seat time in the enviroment you'll be using those skills.

So since your question was about street skills I voted "Other". A parking lot and/or a quiet back road may be your best friend.

[hovmaven]

So since your question was about street skills I voted "Other". A parking lot and/or a quiet back road may be your best friend.

 

[Thor]

It depends on how long you have been riding...maybe.

I think that anyone who hasn't ridden on the dirt will gain more from it for day to day riding than they will ever gain at a track day.

In the BRCs I teach, dirt riders can absolute smoke anyone else on the range.  The challenge for them is learning how to use the front brake.

Most people are too nervous and do track days too infrequently to gain a lot quickly.  I'm not saying you can't, but if you end up at a track day where the beginners are fast it can be a little overwhelming, particularly if you aren't used to going 120MPH and then braking down to 60.

I think the dirt will teach you more about bike control and what to do when things get out of shape.

Having said that, I think everyone should do a track day to get a feel for what their bike can do.  I just don't think most street riders gain as much for the street doing multiple track days as they would riding in the dirt on a regular basis.

I think there is reason why most road racers practice in the dirt, but I haven't heard of too many dirt racers practicing on the track.

[With_him]

Practicing street skills similar to those taught in an ERC course will make you a better and safer rider on the street.

They can all have application on the street. But for a legal riding pace I don't think anything beats quality seat time in the enviroment you'll be using those skills.

A much clearer version of what I meant.

[Andrew]

From personal exp. I found old/underpowered/ill handling bikes ridden until you can no longer get the bike to go faster through corners/slippery roads or in general you have maxed out the bikes and your abilities, will make your riding skills grow faster than anything. And no this is not meant to in-courage squids, just that it takes a better rider and a smoother rider to go fast on a crapy bike than to go the same speed on the latest greatest ride.

[Mr Sunshine]

From personal exp. I found old/underpowered/ill handling bikes ridden until you can no longer get the bike to go faster through corners/slippery roads or in general you have maxed out the bikes and your abilities, will make your riding skills grow faster than anything. And no this is not meant to in-courage squids, just that it takes a better rider and a smoother rider to go fast on a crapy bike than to go the same speed on the latest greatest ride.

So at a local track schoo, 2-Fast, they have bike called "The Bike of Shame".  It is a clapped out old Yamaha UMJ that one of the school owners will ride around in the Beginner and sometimes Intermediate group.  There are several "slower" places on the track where HP doesn't matter and he'll commonly pass you on the outside of the corner just to show you how much faster you can take that corner than current are even on a POS.  The point of the bike is to show that your bike is capable of so much more so just try to relax and let the bike do its thing.

My vote is for track days.  But you have to approach each track day with a specific set of skills you want to work on throughout the day or you are wasting it if you wanted to learn/practice something.

Another thing I learned years ago when it comes to physical activities.  If you have never done something and you go to do it for the first time, it takes you 5 times in a row of doing it the same way each time to have that muscle memory. To change it it will take you hundreds of times in a row doing it the different way.  The point is to do it right the first time so you don't have to relearn it later.  For this I fully recommend a track school with a focus in street skills.

[Desmo Duc]

Dirt riding...I grew up with dirtbikes...Since I was about 5...Greatly helped my learning to ride on the street...Toughest part was learning to using more front brake than rear, but if the rear locked up from using too much, I just rode the streetbike like a dirtbike!!

[Snowbird]

Track days, dirt riding, bicycling... all are good, but IMHO the very best way to improve street riding skill is simply lots of seat time riding within your limits.

[Bodhi]

Depends what you mean by "street skills".

I'd have to say a good all-around riding school. (not sure if they exist though).

Track days might be good for studying traction, braking, throttle and steering near the edge of control. Great if you are into club racing. Maybe useful just for backroad twistie blasting.

Dirt riding lets you go right to the edge of control and beyond without the more serious risk of crashing on asphalt. But dirt responds so much differently from asphalt, I don't know what this is going to teach you besides bringing a bike back from a loss of traction or a lockout.

But neither of these are going to help much for real street skills. For that you really need to go to a dedicated all-around riding school. I've heard from a few people that the MSF ERC is not what it ought to be. But there must be other street riding courses out there. Certainly there are several very good books that should be read for the theoretical knowledge.

If I was designing a street riding skills course, I'd have a course made up like a couple of town and city streets. I'd have cardboard cars and deer that staffers would push in front of you unexpectedly. Potholes, traintracks, plastic arrows in the road... We'd wet down the riding surface and teach riding in the rain a little. You want to practice things like accident evasion, swerving and braking combinations, and also some higher speed riding. And of course there'd be one session at night.

Maybe the answer really is all three - track, dirt and a true "street" type of riding course.

[garry]

My assumption was that the original poster wanted to learn how to safely cut a rug in the twisties. Just putting in seat time isn't going to help there, you could be practicing bad habits. You need INSTRUCTION to learn how to control a motorcycle in a more efficient/proficient manner. Seat times helps with situational awareness, but I don't think that was the original question. Nothing beats doing a bunch of instructional track days (classroom time explaining theory, personal feedback from instructors, a chance to practice said skills in a safe, controlled environment). No one says you need to cut a race pace on the street, but the margin of safety you've just created by expanding your skill set will save your bacon on the street for sure.

[Snowbird]

This is sort of like an is ABS a good thing thread. Tell me the emergency braking situation you are going to have and I'll tell you if ABS is a good thing or not.

In this case, tell me whether the situation you'll encounter is technical problem like dirt, oil or a decreasing radius turn or will it be some ass moving into your lane unexpectedly or will it be something to do with your attitude?

Yeah, bad riding technique habits won't be uncovered unless someone qualified points them out, but I've seen plenty of people riding with good technical skills but where the bad habits are things like passing where waiting would be better.

How 'bout if you just buy a dirt bike, then later put some street tires on it and do a track day? Assuming money is no object, of course.    

You still need to put in seat time on the bike you'll be riding the day of your incident if accident stats are any evidence, since a bike that the individual has put fewer than 5k miles on is implicated as a safety issue.

[Busy Little Whiner]

What improved my riding technique the most was reading Twist of the Wrist II not once but 5 times... the
street and the track afforded an avenue to practice what I read... and religiously I will practice on each
and every ride... so if I look like I'm off riding for my own self improvement... I am...