UK Satellite Tracking

[Orson]

I keep hearing rumblings that the UK will install chips in cars (and presumably bikes) that will allow the government to track all vehicles. Presumably, any vehicle that's speeding will immediately be spotted by satellite. The ultimate Big Brother.

Is this a foregone conclusion?

Is there anyway for the common man to fight this? Vote out the ruling party?...or are the safety bureaucrats immune from citizen action?

[Global Rider]

I keep hearing rumblings that the UK will install chips in cars (and presumably bikes) that will allow the government to track all vehicles. Presumably, any vehicle that's speeding will immediately be spotted by satellite. The ultimate Big Brother.

I'd have a problem with that. Its nobody's business where I'm at.

Although different...I've heard that data acquisition computers are already installed on North American vehicles (since 2004?). This according to a TV report. It records and stores the last XX seconds of your speed and whatever else, prior to a collision.

I really don't know of what use it'll be. If you are speeding through a green light by 10 over and someone at the speed limit T-bones you going through a red light...is the person speeding at fault???  

[forester]

Good luck, because I think that is exactly what will happen.  Here in the states it's called on-star, but it's exactly the same thing - only it's marketed differently.  

This technology has been around for at least 10 years (so rather aging).  Most of the state law enforcement vehicles here have this wonderful technology in them so that if someone steals their vehicle, the state can pinpoint the location of it - AND BUST THE PERP - right bigfoot?  

Personally, I think that GPS trackers are a technology RIPE for abuse, but it's a fairly dated technology relative to whats available.  

I feel bureaucrats are essentially immune to citizens action (short of a lethal revolution of one kind or another - which is where this sort of heavy-handed control is eventually going to lead to).  

Same thing right here in America.  It's unbelievable what kind of crap they get away with and as long as there is the right amount of paperwork to cover their ass or void of evidence that would otherwise bury them.  Ask me how I know.    

You can't put humans on a short leash.  The idea is simply not sustainable.  The cameras mounted in (primarily) large urban areas to capture human activity is not just related to law enforcement.  Control doesn't nearly stop there.

It's amazing what kind of controls you can place on Americans when you just market these controls as "safety" or "security".  This country is full of docile ignorant sheep that all think they're wolves.  Meanwhile, the real wolves are feasting.

[forester]

I'd have a problem with that. Its nobody's business where I'm at.

FACT: If someone with enough tools wants to pinpoint you, consider yourself pinpointed - and you'll never even know it.  

Although different...I've heard that data acquisition computers are already installed on North American vehicles (since 2004?). This according to a TV report. It records and stores the last XX seconds of your speed and whatever else, prior to a collision.

I'm not sure on all models, but for sure on many and that's not all they record.  They record a top speed since the computer was last reset.

I really don't know of what use it'll be. If you are speeding through a green light by 10 over and someone at the speed limit T-bones you going through a red light...is the person speeding at fault???  

 Ever hear of marketing statistics?  It's amazing how important small pieces of information - items that you might think trivial - are to marketing firms and other financial interests - public and private - for the manipulation of your decisions to positively contribute to their finances.  Welcome to the future - we're almost there.  

[Global Rider]

FACT: If someone with enough tools wants to pinpoint you, consider yourself pinpointed - and you'll never even know it.  

Don't use your charge cards when on a trip for gas, hotels or anything; use cash. In fact, if you bus it, they can't even track your licence plate....you've been home all along.  

[throttlemeister]

Leave your mobile at home too. Here in Holland T-mobile offers routing assistance/information/directions similar to a GPS - based on triangulation of your IMEI. And it is just as accurate.  

[mr moto]

I keep hearing rumblings that the UK will install chips in cars (and presumably bikes) that will allow the government to track all vehicles. Presumably, any vehicle that's speeding will immediately be spotted by satellite. The ultimate Big Brother.

Is this a foregone conclusion?

Is there anyway for the common man to fight this? Vote out the ruling party?...or are the safety bureaucrats immune from citizen action?

plans are well underway for this to be in place in just a few years as part of a pay as you ride scheme set up and funded by the auto/bike insurance companies your insurance company will know where you are and exactly how fast or slow you are driving at all times and you will be charged according to your driving/riding habits on a monthly basis. can we fight this ?  the majority of us said no to speed cameras, these are now everywhere. we said no to i,d cards , our government says, they are for your own good, so we are getting them whether we like it or not ! currently 1 in 10 uk passport holders lives  permanently outside the uk ! yes i said 1 in 10 !!!  that number shocked even me ! but with our big brother obsessed government that number will only rise even further . i will be moving to france in 6 months and i have no intention of ever returning  

[skipa]

After having a looked at the Zumo prices the phew not cheap the Tomtom rider looks more attractive but which is better besides the price i have not got one yet but would like to, any ideas

[forester]

Don't use your charge cards when on a trip for gas, hotels or anything; use cash. In fact, if you bus it, they can't even track your licence plate....you've been home all along.  

Don't kid yourself.  There are impressive ways and means of observation by those who are in the business and they are increasing at a nice clip every calendar year.

Besides, who wants to ride a stinking bus?  

[forester]

plans are well underway for this to be in place in just a few years as part of a pay as you ride scheme set up and funded by the auto/bike insurance companies your insurance company will know where you are and exactly how fast or slow you are driving at all times and you will be charged according to your driving/riding habits on a monthly basis. can we fight this ?  the majority of us said no to speed cameras, these are now everywhere. we said no to i,d cards , our government says, they are for your own good, so we are getting them whether we like it or not ! currently 1 in 10 uk passport holders lives  permanently outside the uk ! yes i said 1 in 10 !!!  that number shocked even me ! but with our big brother obsessed government that number will only rise even further . i will be moving to france in 6 months and i have no intention of ever returning  

 I can't blame you.  I hope you make it!  

[cyeager]

I really don't know of what use it'll be. If you are speeding through a green light by 10 over and someone at the speed limit T-bones you going through a red light...is the person speeding at fault???

No, but lets say you are going five miles over the limit on your bike and run upon a nasty patch of oil on the road and lowside it. Have fun convincing your insurance to pay up when they pull the "black box" and see that you were speeding when it happened. I know these arent in bikes yet, but just wait.

[FJR-UK]

I keep hearing rumblings that the UK will install chips in cars (and presumably bikes) that will allow the government to track all vehicles.

The government's current thinking is that the only way to cure traffic congestion is to price everyone off the roads. Cars (I have not heard the word motorcycle mentioned yet) will have to have transponders fitted to allow road pricing to work. Travel on roads will be priced according to time of day and type of road. The earliest date for this tragic turn of events will be 2010.

As motorcycles are seen to be part of the "cure", they may be exempt. They are currently exempt from the London congestion charge, which is £8/day to drive into the center of the city.. (That's USD16!)

This is all on top of the cost of petrol, which is currently just under £1/liter, and the annual road tax (£60 for a motorcycle).

[Orson]

The government's current thinking is that the only way to cure traffic congestion is to price everyone off the roads. Cars (I have not heard the word motorcycle mentioned yet) will have to have transponders fitted to allow road pricing to work. Travel on roads will be priced according to time of day and type of road. The earliest date for this tragic turn of events will be 2010.

It's hard to believe something so unpopular cannot be reversed by a public outcry or an angry electorate.

Why does it seem that the people are powerless to do anything about it?

Why doesn't one of the political parties run on a platform of reversing Big Brother?

[forester]

This will be a very interesting series of events...  

[FJR-UK]

Why does it seem that the people are powerless to do anything about it?

A couple reasons. First, I suppose people see it as inevitable. Brits are used to traveling in France and Italy. Both countries already have toll roads. We're used to being taxed on everything. More than Americans, less than Germans or Swedes. Hopefully, it comes back to you in services rendered. In this case, improved public transportation.

Second, if protest and public opinion did any good, we never would have gone to Iraq. The only thing we can do is show Tony Blair and Labour the door at the next election. Even then, we'll still have to pay the taxes. Every opposition party says cut taxes, but no new government has ever rescinded the previous government's taxes. It costs a lot to run the National Health and wage wars.

[throttlemeister]

...That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Maybe it is time for a little revolution in the Old World...

[Pete ST]

Can't yer just dump some tea in the Thames..

Second, if protest and public opinion did any good, we never would have gone to Iraq. The only thing we can do is show Tony Blair and Labour the door at the next election. Even then, we'll still have to pay the taxes. Every opposition party says cut taxes, but no new government has ever rescinded the previous government's taxes. It costs a lot to run the National Health and wage wars.

[Pete ST]

  One of the local car rental agencies was adding a surcharge to customers bills because they were able to determine they were speeding with tracking technology. Luckily the state came down on the side of the consumer and and went after the rental company..

Baaa Baaa - Pete the sheep..

Good luck, because I think that is exactly what will happen.  Here in the states it's called on-star, but it's exactly the same thing - only it's marketed differently.  

Personally, I think that GPS trackers are a technology RIPE for abuse, but it's a fairly dated technology relative to whats available.  

I feel bureaucrats are essentially immune to citizens action (short of a lethal revolution of one kind or another - which is where this sort of heavy-handed control is eventually going to lead to).  

Same thing right here in America.  It's unbelievable what kind of crap they get away with and as long as there is the right amount of paperwork to cover their ass or void of evidence that would otherwise bury them.  Ask me how I know.    

You can't put humans on a short leash.  The idea is simply not sustainable.  The cameras mounted in (primarily) large urban areas to capture human activity is not just related to law enforcement.  Control doesn't nearly stop there.

It's amazing what kind of controls you can place on Americans when you just market these controls as "safety" or "security".  This country is full of docile ignorant sheep that all think they're wolves.  Meanwhile, the real wolves are feasting.

[Pete ST]

Dunno if this is true for all models but some Tom Tom models do not allow you to keep a file that shows you were you've been..A feature I would want..

After having a looked at the Zumo prices the phew not cheap the Tomtom rider looks more attractive but which is better besides the price i have not got one yet but would like to, any ideas

[throttlemeister]

Dunno if this is true for all models but some Tom Tom models do not allow you to keep a file that shows you were you've been..A feature I would want..

That is correct, TT does not have a track log. All Garmin units do, though the size of it depends and varies per model.

Imo, TT sucks for everything except stupid A to B nav. Garmin is far superior when it comes to the demanding GPS user that wants to create routes at home, have the freedom to chose the spefic roads to his liking etc.

The way I use my GPS, I could never use a TT. It does not even come close.

[Yankee Dog]

It's hard to believe something so unpopular cannot be reversed by a public outcry or an angry electorate.

Why does it seem that the people are powerless to do anything about it?

Why doesn't one of the political parties run on a platform of reversing Big Brother?

Because it is all done for our own good.  Think of the Childern for God's sake.  

See the post above about sheep.  We are doomed.  

Yankee Dog

[sweeney todd]

It's hard to believe something so unpopular cannot be reversed by a public outcry or an angry electorate.

Why does it seem that the people are powerless to do anything about it?

Why doesn't one of the political parties run on a platform of reversing Big Brother?

Why doesn't one of yours?  Same technology.  Same scenario?

We'll see what happens but I can't help thinking practical considerations will outweigh the 'Orwellian' ideal.  It would be nice to apprehend speeders, for instance, without even taking a photo but national and local governments will be much more interested in getting errant 'road charging' avoiders if this system becomes more widespread as is vaunted.

As to the guy who is moving to France to avoid the argument (and presumably all worries ).  Get real!  Just go la la la and ignore the whole thing wydontcha?

[Orson]

Why doesn't one of yours?  Same technology.  Same scenario?

I wasn't trying to sound disparaging.

I was just wondering why it just seems to be a foregone conclusion.

In the states I'd imagine there would be auto groups lobbying Congress while there would be much hand-wringing amongst civil liberties groups about infringements on their rights....sure, it might pass in the end because the insurance companies have deep pockets and Congressmen love their yachts but not before a brouhaha.

As a road tax solution, I have no qualms. Although, doesn't the tax disc thingie collect enough? As a satellite mounted speed camera...I can't imagine enjoying a jaunt on an empty road out in the countryside, then finding a ticket in the post a week later.

That would totally suck  

[Snowbird]

Why doesn't one of the political parties run on a platform of reversing Big Brother?

Seems to me this is the best way out for any democratic nation.

At the same time also very unlikely since corporate money elects pols and the Big Brother technologies make the corporations money.

[FJR-UK]

That would totally suck

It would truely, as you say, suck.

It would, in fact, be time to give up personal transportation. What's the point of having a stupid power-to-weight ratio if you can't abuse it from time to time?

Anyway, with international terrorism and home-grown yobbery, the majority of the voting public feel all warm and cuddly knowing that Big Brother is watching over them. (It doesn't stop the crime, but boy do we catch the buggers quick! R.I.P. Jean Charles de Menezes)

As my dad likes to say, "If you don't do anything wrong, what's the problem?"

[Ant]

It would truely, as you say, suck.

It would, in fact, be time to give up personal transportation. What's the point of having a stupid power-to-weight ratio if you can't abuse it from time to time?

Anyway, with international terrorism and home-grown yobbery, the majority of the voting public feel all warm and cuddly knowing that Big Brother is watching over them. (It doesn't stop the crime, but boy do we catch the buggers quick! R.I.P. Jean Charles de Menezes)

As my dad likes to say, "If you don't do anything wrong, what's the problem?"

This is the problem, I have no qualms with ID cards and so on and so forth as I don't do anything wrong. Most countries in the world already have such a system, I just know that our Government would make such a monumental f**k up of implementing anything like this that it'd just be a waste and achieve nothing.

As for the speeding issue -  
Speeding is the only law I... ummm... dodge and it would be a shame if this vice was removed, I can see a not-too-distant future where you find that if you crash your bike you're not insured since you've been over the speed limit about an hour ago (so not the cause of the accident)

[Snowbird]

Well, one thing these new technologies will cause is appreciation of the value of older vehicles. Next time you upgrade your bike, consider holding onto the old one.

Same with older vehicles. I'm still driving my 1996 Tahoe 11 years later because I like it better than the newer ones. I will NOT buy a new GM vehicle with OnStar.... and I think they all have it now.

[Aero]

As my dad likes to say, "If you don't do anything wrong, what's the problem?"

That depends on what is defined as 'wrong'. If the government decides that any speed over 50mph is socially irresponsible I suppose we would all be wrongdoers and therefore potential recipients of speeding tickets on a daily basis. Lots of revenue for the government and presumably not so many vehicles on the roads if driving bans follow the speeding fines. Just another form of road pricing really when you think about it....

[forester]

That depends on what is defined as 'wrong'. If the government decides that any speed over 50mph is socially irresponsible I suppose we would all be wrongdoers and therefore potential recipients of speeding tickets on a daily basis. Lots of revenue for the government and presumably not so many vehicles on the roads if driving bans follow the speeding fines. Just another form of road pricing really when you think about it....

  Yeah, because the words "intent" and "purpose" have no meaning.    


Some of you people sheeple are not thinking this through very well.  "Not against a national ID"?  Maybe you'd be fine with the government inserting a tracking device in your forehead then?  Ever heard of RFIDs?  The use of such technologies applied to Gov't I.D.s can track what you eat, what you purchase, how often and on what days you go grocery shopping, and ALL KINDS of other information unnecessary for any "government" to successfully fulfill its civic responsibilities.  

Maybe you don't care if someone is able to track your whereabouts/habits.  There is only one type of entity that desires this kind of information: a hunter.  What value do you think such an entity would be hunting for?    Ponder it.

[Orson]

   Yeah, because the words "intent" and "purpose" have no meaning.    
   Ponder it.

You really should take online tact 101.

Do you have to address everyone as if they're idiots and you're here to correct their misguided attempts at muddling thru life?

Ponder that.

[Boxerdawg]

If the sat. tracking goes in operation It'll be interesting to see what creative evasion technologies evolve from it.  

[sweeney todd]

I wasn't trying to sound disparaging.

I was just wondering why it just seems to be a foregone conclusion.

In the states I'd imagine there would be auto groups lobbying Congress while there would be much hand-wringing amongst civil liberties groups about infringements on their rights....sure, it might pass in the end because the insurance companies have deep pockets and Congressmen love their yachts but not before a brouhaha.

As a road tax solution, I have no qualms. Although, doesn't the tax disc thingie collect enough? As a satellite mounted speed camera...I can't imagine enjoying a jaunt on an empty road out in the countryside, then finding a ticket in the post a week later.

That would totally suck  

I don't think it is a foregone conclusion Orson.  We are having a brewhaha as we speak and understandably so.  Apparently we are one of the most video'd nations on earth but there is no system or real integration, just a lot of city councils, shops, ammenities etc all doing their own thing.  In reality in some places (cities and towns) you may be captured on several cameras but coverage is almost non-existent in most places.

There is a big debate about speed cameras here.  They've proliferated over the past decade and the government is presently scratching it's head wondering why there is no real evidence of road casualty reductions over this period.  They've stayed around the same level as before the introduction of cameras.  Speed zealots still say it's because there aren't enough cameras but even the densest are beginning to realise that drivers/riders behaviour is a lot more complex than they had anticipated and meanwhile, police presence on the roads has declined (don't need 'em.....got cameras.... goes the argument) and drink driving/general bad driving is on the increase.

On the tracking front.  I have sat nav and a couple of mobile phones.  I believe I can already be tracked using this technology although I'm no expert?  Road charging has already started in inner London and has been proposed in several other places although there have been several local 'no' votes most recently in Edinburgh.  The government would like to see it in place for congestion reasons and also increasingly, as some sort of carbon tax.  I think their thinking is a bit muddled and there is plenty of resistance to such measures.

All the technology could be used by any future 'bad' governments to do nasty stuff to their citizens and that alone is good enough reason for me to resist some of the measures but each individual initiative is usually laden with perfectly good other reasons to object such as cost and effectiveness in the case of things like ID cards.

[forester]

You really should take online tact 101.

Do you have to address everyone as if they're idiots and you're here to correct their misguided attempts at muddling thru life?

Ponder that.

Don't you have some oil to drill or something?  

[Snowbird]

Some of you people sheeple are not thinking this through very well.

Imagine that... the "everythings ok" crowd not thinking things through.  

 

[Maltese_Wizard]

looks like you can sign a petition against this Big Brother crap, i can't see them being able to do it to be honest...  

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax

 

[Snowbird]

looks like you can sign a petition against this Big Brother crap, i can't see them being able to do it to be honest...  

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/traveltax

 

At least the Brits are petitioning their govenment. But, unlike the US, they have no constitutional right to do so. Correct me if I am wrong. A statutory right is not a substitute.

[Cpl Punishment]

Some good news. Speed cameras will be reduced in number come April. The petition against road pricing by cagers has worked. For the rest...I'm thinking of buying an Enfield...