Bosch ABS brake system flawed on many bikes

[atadaskew]

Taken from motorcycle-usa.com:

"I want to warn others who share the same ABS system found on the new BMW F800ST's as they might experience the same "no brakes" problems dozens and dozens of us have on our F800ST's, (see the longest thread on F800RIDERS.org).  It's so bad I'm getting rid of an otherwise "perfect" fully optioned F800ST with ABS and purchasing the same model, lightly optioned, without ABS.  It's gonna cost me a couple thousand dollars to make the swap but to me it is worth it.
 
Bottom line, this ABS is a "linked" type in that the brakes aren't linked but the ABS system is; most common fault is when the rear suspension undergoes substantial compression followed by rebound...the ABS "reads" that as low traction and DECREASES FRONT BRAKE PRESSURE!  It is clearly in the Manual...and BMW is stonewalling.
 
Here is a summary of the investigation started in 2006 that went nowhere BUT IT LISTS OTHER MODELS WITH THE SAME ABS SYSTEM...PLEASE BEWARE:
 
 
"the Federal Bureau of Motor Vehicles and Drivers in Germany started an investigation of the BOSCH ABS8M braking system.

These are the bikes that are equipped with the BOSCH-System: BMW R 1200 S, BMW F 800 S and ST, Kawasaki ER-6n, ER-6f and Versys, KTM 990 Adventure, Moto Guzzi Breva 850 and Breva 1100 aswell as Norge 1200 and Suzuki V-Strom 650.

The German motorcycle magazin MO informed about the problems of blocking wheels without warning of the warning lamp and without the possibility to reproduce the failures (no error logged aswell) in the usenet in late November 2006."
Anyone with these bikes experience a similar problem??? Evidently on the Versys website there is already "buzz" on this issue, but I only have so much time...

I reported this to the NHTSA, BMW of North America and, obviously to my dealer.  It wasn't until I actually read the ABS section in the Owner's Manual that I realized it was DESIGNED TO WORK THAT WAY and either I could let the bike rot while I waited for BMW to respond or simply move on.

Yeah, I know, BMW does not deserve my loyalty; this is the second one I've owned with a potentially fatal flaw, but I loved my K75S, and I love the F800...both lightweight purpose built ST's...a very, very under-addressed market by all the majors.

Many older moto ABS systems work just fine.

Progress, my butt!"

[ZED]

Doesn't your BMW give you the option of turning the ABS off?  My Ducati does.  I even tried it once just to test it out.  That would seem like a simple option and save you the pain of trading bikes.

[cbsnbiker]

Doesn't your BMW give you the option of turning the ABS off?  My Ducati does.  I even tried it once just to test it out.  That would seem like a simple option and save you the pain of trading bikes.

Some BMWs do (e.g. the GS models and the R1200S); others don't. My guess is that the F800ST doesn't, but I don't know that for a fact.

Yeah, I know, BMW does not deserve my loyalty; this is the second one I've owned with a potentially fatal flaw, but I loved my K75S, and I love the F800...

Is the K75S the other bike with a fatal flaw? The quoted article suggests it, but this isn't clear. If so, I wonder what was the fatal flaw of the K75S?  

[highside]

Can you provide a direct link to the "article"?

[atadaskew]

First off, I'm just cutting/pasting from motorcycle-usa.com, these are not my writings..
This is what he says about turning off the ABS:

"The dealer already told me I'd get a "fault" by unplugging the ABS and likely affect my warranty.
It is spelled out how to do this at F800riders but I know that I'd be the one where doing this would lead to some other electro failure."

This is the issue he had with his K75:

"My 1987 K75S monoshock broke while bike being placed on center stand...took'em 6 months to recall the shock...but I refused the BMW replacement and put on a Fox Shock, (great product). After that, and with the help of the boys at San Jose BMW and their motor upgrades, it was a GREAT bike after that."

[highside]

I take it this was from a poster in their forum? Or was it an article from the site? This is why I asked for a link, because it does make a pretty big difference in my opinion.

[cbsnbiker]

First off, I'm just cutting/pasting from motorcycle-usa.com, these are not my writings..

Understood.

This is what he says about turning off the ABS:

"The dealer already told me I'd get a "fault" by unplugging the ABS and likely affect my warranty.
It is spelled out how to do this at F800riders but I know that I'd be the one where doing this would lead to some other electro failure."

This is the issue he had with his K75:

"My 1987 K75S monoshock broke while bike being placed on center stand...took'em 6 months to recall the shock...but I refused the BMW replacement and put on a Fox Shock, (great product). After that, and with the help of the boys at San Jose BMW and their motor upgrades, it was a GREAT bike after that."

The rear shock on my '94 R1100RS broke. It didn't cause a safety problem, but it did need to be replaced. Without knowing better, I had it replaced under warranty. I should have taken a credit and replaced it with an Ohlins. I later did so when the replacement sagged out.

Getting back to the original info: I'll have to do some Googling. I don't know anything about this controversy. Is it more anti-ABS BS, or is there a real problem with that system? I don't know.

[motoguy128]

Ummm... how often when applying the brakes with any amount of significant force does the rear suspension go through a large amount of travel.

I'm actually impressed that the system is sensitive enough to do this.
I could see this happening on any bike with linked ABS.  When the rear suspension moves through it's full range, the wheelbase of the bike actually changes.  This would make the speed relationship between the 2 wheels change.  Unless you add a sensor on the rear shock, I don't know how you prevent this "glitch".

Can't you just squeeze the lever harder?  I'll still take the ABS.  Posts like this are too common.  I have linked brakes on my R1200RT.  5000 miles and I haven't had this happen.  I haven't heard of this on any other message board before.  I'll have ot test this out in the spring.  Find a huge bump and hit the brakes.  There's plenty of large bumps around my house.

[atadaskew]

It happened to the dude when he rode into a gas station.  As he crossed over the kerb/ramp from the street to the gas station, it compressed the rear suspension which then caused the abs link issue to kick in.
This isn't an anti BMW thread, he lists a whole bunch o bikes that use the same system, from KTM to Guzzi.

[atadaskew]

 I have linked brakes on my R1200RT.  5000 miles and I haven't had this happen.

Your bike doesn't have the same system as the affected bikes. For BMW he lists R1200s, F800s, F800st.

[sleazy rider]

Sounds like another online whiner to me.  I've seen it with the GL1800 frames and "overheating" issue, the BMW final drive and many other bikes and complaints.  Tell them to sell it, move on and don't look back.  It's made by humans and is going to have some faults.  As systems become more complex, these things are bound to appear.  BMW apparently had the info in their manuals when the bike came out.  The customer didn't do his due diligence and now wants to rant about it to an audience.  Meh, I give his rant a .3 on the whine scale.

[SWriverstone]

Do they mention any Japanese bikes? (Just wondering---so far all brands mentioned have been European.)
Edit: Doh---never mind. I didn't read the original post thoroughly enough!   My bad.

[tripledigits]

Another example of brilliant German over-engineering.......

[ZED]

Mental note to self.  Don't buy a bike/car/other with an automated feature (eg. ABS) that you can't disable if you need to.

Do they mention any Japanese bikes? (Just wondering---so far all brands mentioned have been European.)

Three Kawis and the weestrom!  (can you disable your ABS?)

[SWriverstone]

Mental note to self.  Don't buy a bike/car/other with an automated feature (eg. ABS) that you can't disable if you need to.



Three Kawis and the weestrom!  (can you disable your ABS?)

Nope, the V-Strom's ABS doesn't come with a switch...but you can either pull the fuse under the seat or install a switch (which I may do at some point). I never had a problem with my VFR's ABS in 16,000 miles (which included plenty of riding over low curbs, quick stops, etc.).

[atadaskew]

Sounds like another online whiner to me.  I've seen it with the GL1800 frames and "overheating" issue

Eh? I had a 2002 Goldwing 1800 and I suffered the frame cracking as well as the overheating.  So I'd be whining about that?  

[XLR8]

not directed at the OP of this thread

Does anybody actually RIDE their bike these days, watch their nice new LCD TV, or take wonderful pictures with their cool new DSLR? The internet is cool and all but I swear it has turned us all into a bunch of over analyzing anally retentive pussies.

[mcoyote]

The braking power-assist on my '02 K1200RS failed twice at speed in the year I owned it, leaving me with bupkiss for braking power (that residual nonsense wasn't very useful at 80mph). I've related the story a few times, so...meh...but the more things change...

...Yes, I understand that power assist isn't the same as ABS, but BMW is the same as BMW. Go figure.

[Bjorn Toulouse]

Eh? I had a 2002 Goldwing 1800 and I suffered the frame cracking as well as the overheating.  So I'd be whining about that?  

Seems you may have a knack for picking bikes that are somewhat less than ideal. Go figure.


Rex

[1moreroad]

not directed at the OP of this thread

Does anybody actually RIDE their bike these days, watch their nice new LCD TV, or take wonderful pictures with their cool new DSLR? The internet is cool and all but I swear it has turned us all into a bunch of over analyzing anally retentive pussies.

   LOL  Sometimes I didn't know I had a bad product until someone on teh interweb told me so!  The flip side is that I've owned products (Canon and Sony digital cameras) that have a very short useful life and warranty repairs that posters have raved about for their reliability.

I had a 2002 Goldwing 1800 and I suffered the frame cracking as well as the overheating.  So I'd be whining about that?

Mental note: don't follow atad through a corner too closely or buy a used bike from him... just in case.

FWIW, the ABS on my Subaru kicks in way too early.  Go over rough pavement or brake ripples rolling up to a quickly changing yellow light and it kicks in.  Easy to control but I can't imagine I'm getting the shortest braking distance.  What was truly scary were the first few times I tried braking on a gravel road -- I've modified my driving style quite a bit.