Bosch ABS brake system flawed on many bikes

[atadaskew]

Taken from motorcycle-usa.com:

"I want to warn others who share the same ABS system found on the new BMW F800ST's as they might experience the same "no brakes" problems dozens and dozens of us have on our F800ST's, (see the longest thread on F800RIDERS.org).  It's so bad I'm getting rid of an otherwise "perfect" fully optioned F800ST with ABS and purchasing the same model, lightly optioned, without ABS.  It's gonna cost me a couple thousand dollars to make the swap but to me it is worth it.
 
Bottom line, this ABS is a "linked" type in that the brakes aren't linked but the ABS system is; most common fault is when the rear suspension undergoes substantial compression followed by rebound...the ABS "reads" that as low traction and DECREASES FRONT BRAKE PRESSURE!  It is clearly in the Manual...and BMW is stonewalling.
 
Here is a summary of the investigation started in 2006 that went nowhere BUT IT LISTS OTHER MODELS WITH THE SAME ABS SYSTEM...PLEASE BEWARE:
 
 
"the Federal Bureau of Motor Vehicles and Drivers in Germany started an investigation of the BOSCH ABS8M braking system.

These are the bikes that are equipped with the BOSCH-System: BMW R 1200 S, BMW F 800 S and ST, Kawasaki ER-6n, ER-6f and Versys, KTM 990 Adventure, Moto Guzzi Breva 850 and Breva 1100 aswell as Norge 1200 and Suzuki V-Strom 650.

The German motorcycle magazin MO informed about the problems of blocking wheels without warning of the warning lamp and without the possibility to reproduce the failures (no error logged aswell) in the usenet in late November 2006."
Anyone with these bikes experience a similar problem??? Evidently on the Versys website there is already "buzz" on this issue, but I only have so much time...

I reported this to the NHTSA, BMW of North America and, obviously to my dealer.  It wasn't until I actually read the ABS section in the Owner's Manual that I realized it was DESIGNED TO WORK THAT WAY and either I could let the bike rot while I waited for BMW to respond or simply move on.

Yeah, I know, BMW does not deserve my loyalty; this is the second one I've owned with a potentially fatal flaw, but I loved my K75S, and I love the F800...both lightweight purpose built ST's...a very, very under-addressed market by all the majors.

Many older moto ABS systems work just fine.

Progress, my butt!"

[ZED]

Doesn't your BMW give you the option of turning the ABS off?  My Ducati does.  I even tried it once just to test it out.  That would seem like a simple option and save you the pain of trading bikes.

[cbsnbiker]

Doesn't your BMW give you the option of turning the ABS off?  My Ducati does.  I even tried it once just to test it out.  That would seem like a simple option and save you the pain of trading bikes.

Some BMWs do (e.g. the GS models and the R1200S); others don't. My guess is that the F800ST doesn't, but I don't know that for a fact.

Yeah, I know, BMW does not deserve my loyalty; this is the second one I've owned with a potentially fatal flaw, but I loved my K75S, and I love the F800...

Is the K75S the other bike with a fatal flaw? The quoted article suggests it, but this isn't clear. If so, I wonder what was the fatal flaw of the K75S?  

[highside]

Can you provide a direct link to the "article"?

[atadaskew]

First off, I'm just cutting/pasting from motorcycle-usa.com, these are not my writings..
This is what he says about turning off the ABS:

"The dealer already told me I'd get a "fault" by unplugging the ABS and likely affect my warranty.
It is spelled out how to do this at F800riders but I know that I'd be the one where doing this would lead to some other electro failure."

This is the issue he had with his K75:

"My 1987 K75S monoshock broke while bike being placed on center stand...took'em 6 months to recall the shock...but I refused the BMW replacement and put on a Fox Shock, (great product). After that, and with the help of the boys at San Jose BMW and their motor upgrades, it was a GREAT bike after that."

[highside]

I take it this was from a poster in their forum? Or was it an article from the site? This is why I asked for a link, because it does make a pretty big difference in my opinion.

[cbsnbiker]

First off, I'm just cutting/pasting from motorcycle-usa.com, these are not my writings..

Understood.

This is what he says about turning off the ABS:

"The dealer already told me I'd get a "fault" by unplugging the ABS and likely affect my warranty.
It is spelled out how to do this at F800riders but I know that I'd be the one where doing this would lead to some other electro failure."

This is the issue he had with his K75:

"My 1987 K75S monoshock broke while bike being placed on center stand...took'em 6 months to recall the shock...but I refused the BMW replacement and put on a Fox Shock, (great product). After that, and with the help of the boys at San Jose BMW and their motor upgrades, it was a GREAT bike after that."

The rear shock on my '94 R1100RS broke. It didn't cause a safety problem, but it did need to be replaced. Without knowing better, I had it replaced under warranty. I should have taken a credit and replaced it with an Ohlins. I later did so when the replacement sagged out.

Getting back to the original info: I'll have to do some Googling. I don't know anything about this controversy. Is it more anti-ABS BS, or is there a real problem with that system? I don't know.

[motoguy128]

Ummm... how often when applying the brakes with any amount of significant force does the rear suspension go through a large amount of travel.

I'm actually impressed that the system is sensitive enough to do this.
I could see this happening on any bike with linked ABS.  When the rear suspension moves through it's full range, the wheelbase of the bike actually changes.  This would make the speed relationship between the 2 wheels change.  Unless you add a sensor on the rear shock, I don't know how you prevent this "glitch".

Can't you just squeeze the lever harder?  I'll still take the ABS.  Posts like this are too common.  I have linked brakes on my R1200RT.  5000 miles and I haven't had this happen.  I haven't heard of this on any other message board before.  I'll have ot test this out in the spring.  Find a huge bump and hit the brakes.  There's plenty of large bumps around my house.

[atadaskew]

It happened to the dude when he rode into a gas station.  As he crossed over the kerb/ramp from the street to the gas station, it compressed the rear suspension which then caused the abs link issue to kick in.
This isn't an anti BMW thread, he lists a whole bunch o bikes that use the same system, from KTM to Guzzi.

[atadaskew]

 I have linked brakes on my R1200RT.  5000 miles and I haven't had this happen.

Your bike doesn't have the same system as the affected bikes. For BMW he lists R1200s, F800s, F800st.

[sleazy rider]

Sounds like another online whiner to me.  I've seen it with the GL1800 frames and "overheating" issue, the BMW final drive and many other bikes and complaints.  Tell them to sell it, move on and don't look back.  It's made by humans and is going to have some faults.  As systems become more complex, these things are bound to appear.  BMW apparently had the info in their manuals when the bike came out.  The customer didn't do his due diligence and now wants to rant about it to an audience.  Meh, I give his rant a .3 on the whine scale.

[SWriverstone]

Do they mention any Japanese bikes? (Just wondering---so far all brands mentioned have been European.)
Edit: Doh---never mind. I didn't read the original post thoroughly enough!   My bad.

[tripledigits]

Another example of brilliant German over-engineering.......

[ZED]

Mental note to self.  Don't buy a bike/car/other with an automated feature (eg. ABS) that you can't disable if you need to.

Do they mention any Japanese bikes? (Just wondering---so far all brands mentioned have been European.)

Three Kawis and the weestrom!  (can you disable your ABS?)

[SWriverstone]

Mental note to self.  Don't buy a bike/car/other with an automated feature (eg. ABS) that you can't disable if you need to.



Three Kawis and the weestrom!  (can you disable your ABS?)

Nope, the V-Strom's ABS doesn't come with a switch...but you can either pull the fuse under the seat or install a switch (which I may do at some point). I never had a problem with my VFR's ABS in 16,000 miles (which included plenty of riding over low curbs, quick stops, etc.).

[atadaskew]

Sounds like another online whiner to me.  I've seen it with the GL1800 frames and "overheating" issue

Eh? I had a 2002 Goldwing 1800 and I suffered the frame cracking as well as the overheating.  So I'd be whining about that?  

[XLR8]

not directed at the OP of this thread

Does anybody actually RIDE their bike these days, watch their nice new LCD TV, or take wonderful pictures with their cool new DSLR? The internet is cool and all but I swear it has turned us all into a bunch of over analyzing anally retentive pussies.

[mcoyote]

The braking power-assist on my '02 K1200RS failed twice at speed in the year I owned it, leaving me with bupkiss for braking power (that residual nonsense wasn't very useful at 80mph). I've related the story a few times, so...meh...but the more things change...

...Yes, I understand that power assist isn't the same as ABS, but BMW is the same as BMW. Go figure.

[Bjorn Toulouse]

Eh? I had a 2002 Goldwing 1800 and I suffered the frame cracking as well as the overheating.  So I'd be whining about that?  

Seems you may have a knack for picking bikes that are somewhat less than ideal. Go figure.


Rex

[1moreroad]

not directed at the OP of this thread

Does anybody actually RIDE their bike these days, watch their nice new LCD TV, or take wonderful pictures with their cool new DSLR? The internet is cool and all but I swear it has turned us all into a bunch of over analyzing anally retentive pussies.

   LOL  Sometimes I didn't know I had a bad product until someone on teh interweb told me so!  The flip side is that I've owned products (Canon and Sony digital cameras) that have a very short useful life and warranty repairs that posters have raved about for their reliability.

I had a 2002 Goldwing 1800 and I suffered the frame cracking as well as the overheating.  So I'd be whining about that?

Mental note: don't follow atad through a corner too closely or buy a used bike from him... just in case.

FWIW, the ABS on my Subaru kicks in way too early.  Go over rough pavement or brake ripples rolling up to a quickly changing yellow light and it kicks in.  Easy to control but I can't imagine I'm getting the shortest braking distance.  What was truly scary were the first few times I tried braking on a gravel road -- I've modified my driving style quite a bit.

[sleazy rider]

Eh? I had a 2002 Goldwing 1800 and I suffered the frame cracking as well as the overheating.  So I'd be whining about that?  

Your frame actually cracked and fell down on the wheel?  Last I knew there were like 2 known cases of that happening.  If you mean, your bike was recalled for the frame weld, that's another thing entirely.  Same with the overheating.  Did it actually spew coolant or did it just indicate hot?  Big difference there too.  My '01 was rock solid and the only recall problem I encountered was the speedo needle sticking after being exposed to direct sunlite for extended time.

*edit for phat phingers

I was trying to point out that there was a hue and cry over all these issues on all the GW boards and not one poster screaming "sue" was able to document one solid case of fault.  I actually quit visiting two of those boards due to the acrimony and vitriol between some of the members.  No killfile option or ignore either.  Too bad too, as most of the guys were decent sorts in person.

[cbsnbiker]

Does anybody actually RIDE their bike these days, watch their nice new LCD TV, or take wonderful pictures with their cool new DSLR? The internet is cool and all but I swear it has turned us all into a bunch of over analyzing anally retentive pussies.

Tomorrow's forecast: snow, temperatures in the 20s.

What's your excuse?  

[sleazy rider]

Well, you can now watch that new LCD tv then.  Me, I'll be kicked back in front of a nice warm fireplace and sipping a wonderful flavor of liquor.  We have a winter storm watch and 2-6" forecast for overnight followed by freezing rain.  

[Stargzrgrl]

not directed at the OP of this thread

Does anybody actually RIDE their bike these days, watch their nice new LCD TV, or take wonderful pictures with their cool new DSLR? The internet is cool and all but I swear it has turned us all into a bunch of over analyzing anally retentive pussies.

+1

Maybe I'm drinking some newfangled funky kool aid as I have absolutely no gripe with my bike.  

[county]

This kinda reminds me of a thread I read about how the "Throttle Rocker will kill you" in which the poster told of how a friend rode thru a plate glass window because of the throttle rocker.  This just doesn't appear to be that big of a deal to me.  Of course I'm careful with that lever on my throttle....

[atadaskew]

Seems you may have a knack for picking bikes that are somewhat less than ideal. Go figure.


Rex

Hey, the BMW thing was not mine, I just posted the quotes!  The Wing was mine, which is why I sold it.  Everything's been peachy since then!
But you may be onto something here... GPZ550 - failed 'ecu' (not sure what it was it was so long ago, but it was the little black electric box).  ZX10 1988 - failed alternator.. VFR750 - failed RR...Wing 1200 - failed stator...Valkyrie Interstate 1500 -perfect!....Suzi TL1000s failed fuel tank, 2 ECUs, clutch, coolant pump, rear damper, frame cracked...Wing 1800 - frame cracked, spewed coolant...KLR650 - fuel tank burst just sitting in garage....Ducati St4s - perfect! Ducati 800ss - perfect! (ok only 2K miles on that one so far)..

[Snowbird]

FWIW, the ABS on my Subaru kicks in way too early.  Go over rough pavement or brake ripples rolling up to a quickly changing yellow light and it kicks in.  Easy to control but I can't imagine I'm getting the shortest braking distance.  What was truly scary were the first few times I tried braking on a gravel road -- I've modified my driving style quite a bit.

A friend of mine complains about that on his Toyota. What's more the ABS kicks in if he stabs the bake pedal too quickly.   

Now, when I pointed out the same thing (ABS kicks in way too early) about the brakes on my '06 FJR the result was an attempt to roast Snowbird into submission. But I stuck to my guns because I knew I was right and at long last, Motorcycle Consumer News agreed with me, posting a distance of 144 FEET! to stop from 60mph.

[1moreroad]

A friend of mine complains about that on his Toyota. What's more the ABS kicks in if he stabs the bake pedal too quickly.   

Now, when I pointed out the same thing (ABS kicks in way too early) about the brakes on my '06 FJR the result was an attempt to roast Snowbird into submission. But I stuck to my guns because I knew I was right and at long last, Motorcycle Consumer News agreed with me, posting a distance of 144 FEET! to stop from 60mph.

You have to adjust to the ABS.  I use engine braking (stick shift) more than I do on other ABS-cars.  The opposite is my Maxima.  That I am aware of, I have NEVER activated ABS.

The same is true for motorcycles.  The Ducati STs with ABS were supposed to allow stoppies before the ABS kicked in.

(of course, I'm one of those guys who believes ABS does certain things well only some of which are useful on a motorcycle -- I just mostly gave up the arguments on this site)

[cbsnbiker]

A friend of mine complains about that on his Toyota. What's more the ABS kicks in if he stabs the bake pedal too quickly.   

Now, when I pointed out the same thing (ABS kicks in way too early) about the brakes on my '06 FJR the result was an attempt to roast Snowbird into submission. But I stuck to my guns because I knew I was right and at long last, Motorcycle Consumer News agreed with me, posting a distance of 144 FEET! to stop from 60mph.

IOW, the problem isn't with ABS per se, it's with the FJR's implementation thereof -- if one trusts MCN results.

I do not. I'm not saying that they're wrong; I'm just saying that they're not credible.

[Snowbird]

IOW, the problem isn't with ABS per se, it's with the FJR's implementation thereof -- if one trusts MCN results.

I do not. I'm not saying that they're wrong; I'm just saying that they're not credible.

Or... it depends on what your definition of "is" is.

[hobbes]

Or... it depends on what your definition of "is" is.

 

Do you ever stop to listen to yourself? You should. It's hilarious!

[1moreroad]

Do you ever stop to listen to yourself? You should. It's hilarious!

Umm... got to agree with Snowbird on this one:

If one trusts MCN results.  I do not.  I'm not saying that they're wrong; I'm just saying that they're not credible.

CBSN is saything they're wrong.

[ZED]

...
  That I am aware of, I have NEVER activated ABS.

WOW man, you must live somewhere nice!  I lost track of how many times mine kicked in today on the SAAB.  By this time tomorrow I expect there to be enough ice to skate on!

The same is true for motorcycles.  The Ducati STs with ABS were supposed to allow stoppies before the ABS kicked in.

I expect that is true.  I learned from experience that the front wheel will definitely chirp before the ABS kicks in.  Didn't really mean to test it, but it saved my bacon at the time and now I know I don't have to worry about it kicking in too early.

[cbsnbiker]

Umm... got to agree with Snowbird on this one:


CBSN is saything they're wrong.

Actually, not really. I'm saying that I don't trust them.

[Snowbird]

Actually, not really. I'm saying that I don't trust them.

There I go again, causing discord.  

MCN is not credible in your opinion....  but in this case, what, you think they're right, but you have to mention that they're not credible?  

IOW, the problem isn't with ABS per se, it's with the FJR's implementation thereof -- if one trusts MCN results.

Then, I guess we agree the '06 FJR's ABS is poorly implemented. But I think MCN is mostly credible and you think they are mostly not credible. Got it.  

Hobbes:

Do you ever stop to listen to yourself? You should. It's hilarious!

Thank you. The internets are supposed to be fun.  

[Lon]

Mental note to self.  Don't buy a bike/car/other with an automated feature (eg. ABS) that you can't disable if you need to.

Better figure you'll never own a new car after 2012, then.

At least with the Chrysler LX cars, the "disable" switch only disables traction control - not stability control (except in the SRT8 models).  Nothing disables ABS.

[Lon]

IOW, the problem isn't with ABS per se, it's with the FJR's implementation thereof -- if one trusts MCN results.

I do not. I'm not saying that they're wrong; I'm just saying that they're not credible.

FUD much?

[hass]

I have tried (really tried) to activate the ABS on my R1200R - the damn thing just stops! Huge traction!

[Mike-H]

Hey some people love to give away their ability to make decisions  to electronics (ecu's etc) & some people don't ...so they shouldn't be allowed to whine if the electronics don't work the way they expect or want ....

[atadaskew]

I have tried (really tried) to activate the ABS on my R1200R - the damn thing just stops! Huge traction!

Then it's broken!  Go down to your local BMW dealer and have them fix it!

[atadaskew]

Anway, here's the link to the actual thread...
http://forum.motorcycle-usa.com/default.aspx?f=17&m=377069

[cbsnbiker]

There I go again, causing discord.  

MCN is not credible in your opinion....  but in this case, what, you think they're right, but you have to mention that they're not credible?  



Then, I guess we agree the '06 FJR's ABS is poorly implemented. But I think MCN is mostly credible and you think they are mostly not credible. Got it.  

Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.  

[hass]

Then it's broken!  Go down to your local BMW dealer and have them fix it!

It's not broken - if it was broken the tyres would lock. I just stop - really quickly! I have Michelin Pilot Roads.

I haven't tried it in really slippery conditions yet - my old 98 K1200RS ABS used to activate really easily. The new system is brilliant! Easily as good at stopping as the old servo system on my 05 K1200S but without the servo whine

[Tritium]

It's not broken - if it was broken the tyres would lock. I just stop - really quickly! I have Michelin Pilot Roads.

I haven't tried it in really slippery conditions yet - my old 98 K1200RS ABS used to activate really easily. The new system is brilliant! Easily as good at stopping as the old servo system on my 05 K1200S but without the servo whine

Yup - whatever the newest ABS system is called (post-servo, on 07s) is great. It hasn't gone off yet, at least that I've noticed, and I tried to set it off on some of the same road surfaces that used to make my ABSII equipped bike routinely trip.

[hig4s]

You have to adjust to the ABS.  I use engine braking (stick shift) more than I do on other ABS-cars.  The opposite is my Maxima.  That I am aware of, I have NEVER activated ABS.

The same is true for motorcycles.  The Ducati STs with ABS were supposed to allow stoppies before the ABS kicked in.

(of course, I'm one of those guys who believes ABS does certain things well only some of which are useful on a motorcycle -- I just mostly gave up the arguments on this site)

Since I changed Kuhmos to get a smoother/quieter ride on my Acura TL the ABS seems to kick in way too soon, but before with the stock tires (High performance summer only Bridgestones) it never kicked on.

[cbsnbiker]

It's not broken - if it was broken the tyres would lock. I just stop - really quickly! I have Michelin Pilot Roads.

I haven't tried it in really slippery conditions yet - my old 98 K1200RS ABS used to activate really easily. The new system is brilliant! Easily as good at stopping as the old servo system on my 05 K1200S but without the servo whine

How odd. The ABS has almost never activated on my '98 K1200RS, except when I have intentionally triggered it or while working on my maximum/threshold braking skills.

The ABS on my R1100RS used to trigger sometimes when braking while going over bumps and such, but I didn't find it to be a big deal once I got used to it.