6th gen VFR Smoking like a two stroke

[Viffer Vern]

I had my 04 in for the 16K service (at 20K) last month. They adjusted the valves, which as expected were close in spec, and replaced the thermostat as well since it was all apart. When I picked up the bike the service manager commented that the top end look immaculate with no signs of wear and the tech said the bike ran exceptionally well during the post service test ride. He also stated that the tech reconnected a vacuum line that had been disconnected although he couldn't tell me which one it was. A week later I take the bike out on a 400 mile run with no problems and it really is running well.

Fast forward 1 month I'm on a overnight ride this past weekend. It's now about 800 miles or so from the service when I start having problems. I go to start bike after it had been sitting for an hour at a lunch and it starts blowing smoke really bad. After a few minutes it settles down and almost goes away but you can still see a little wisp of smoke here and there. This continues throughout the weekend and I had to add a 1/2 qt of oil to get home.

Here are the symptoms:

Smokes a lot on start up and then decreases

Does not overheat, no FI light, Coolant level is OK.

The engine still runs well and doesn't appear to be down on power.

Smoking doesn't appear to be any different below or above vtec threshold

My questions to anyone who can comment:

1. Has anyone else run into a similar problem like this?

2. Is there any reason for an engine to burn oil like this after a valve adjustment? Is it possible that a valve guide is damaged and if so what could have happend.

3. I'm also wondering about that vacuum line that they reattached. For example, is there something like a pinched or improperly routed line that could cause oil to be pushed out of the crank case and into the airbox through the breather circuit?

I haven't checked anything yet because the bike is going back to the dealer and I don't want them accusing my of tampering with it. I'm just hoping for some input here from folks so I can have an intelligent conversation with my dealer.

I'm not an expert mechanic, but I do know that there are only a few ways for an engine to burn oil with rings, valves, or head gaskets being the main culprits. I'm trying to determine if problem is caused by the dealers valve service or if it's just coincidence and I'm crossing my finger in hopes that it's something simple like that vacuum hose being hooked up incorrectly (if that's possible to begin with ).


Any help would be greatly appreciated. I nervously await your replies.

Thanks,

Vernon

[Tar Snake]

I think your 2 guesses are right on, either a valve guide seal or oil being pumped into the airbox. Maybe even something as simple as they overfilled the oil?

....but the 1st 400 miles after the service is baffling?

Good Luck!

[ksann]

Having experienced the smoke from Vern's bike, I agree, it was getting worse as the miles wore on.

Eventually, it did not sound as responsive, although I would guess that the plugs were progressively eing fouled.



ken

[Viffer Vern]

I just checked my oil again and that 1/2 qt of oil I added on the road is more than gone.  Nothing is showing on the sight glass.  The level was at the top mark when I got the bike out of service so that makes about 1.5qts in 1100 miles.

[Tar Snake]

I just checked my oil again and that 1/2 qt of oil I added on the road is more than gone.  Nothing is showing on the sight glass.  The level was at the top mark when I got the bike out of service so that makes about 1.5qts in 1100 miles.

If it's being pumped into the airbox that much oil would make a mess, don't know what's visible on the VFR as it's a pretty covered up, but in this case oil on the outside would be a good thing.

Otherwise the bike is burning it.

[M.Brane]

 He also stated that the tech reconnected a vacuum line that had been disconnected although he couldn't tell me which one it was.

 I wonder if that really was a vacuum line.

[Viffer Vern]

Glimmer of hope here.  

I looked under the tank at all of that plumbing and discovered a rather large solenoid valve on the rear cylinder head with a large 1/2 or 5/8 tube running to the air box.  Not a vacuum line but definitely another possible source of oil entry.  Since they had all of that crap disassembled there is a possibility that they didn't put it back together correctly.

It's going back in the shop tomorrow and I am crossing my fingers.

[steve.ski]

Good to talk to you today, Vern, but I'm really sorry to hear what's happening with your bike. Please call me tomorrow after your trip to the shop...

[Viffer Vern]

Good to talk to you today, Vern, but I'm really sorry to hear what's happening with your bike. Please call me tomorrow after your trip to the shop...

Will do.  

[steve.ski]

Will do.  

Sooooooooo....

Did you make it to the dealer today, Vern?

[Viffer Vern]

Sooooooooo....

Did you make it to the dealer today, Vern?

Yes, Steve and sorry I didn't call you.  They said they would go through it and that they would stand by their work.  Interestingly enough, I may have already discovered the culprit (and they may already know about it from past experience).

There are some pins and seals under the rear valve cover that have to be aligned up just right.  If these parts are damaged oil gets dumped straight into the exhaust port through the emission system.  I found out about this on VFRD from a guy that had the same thing happen to him.  It's too early to tell but it matches the symptoms of heavy white smoke vs. blueish smoke and the fact that it still runs well.  

Check my post under 6th gen on the VFRD website if you want the detailed story.  I'd post it here but it's pretty complicated.
I will continue to post updates here as well to keep people informed.  Thanks everyone for your interest and comments.

V

[atypical1]

Damn Honda's.

james

[Rogue]

Damn Honda dealer.

They should double checked everything before buttoning it all up and giving Vern back the bike.  Those valve adjustments is a major thing for any bike.  Think of it as an open heart surgery.  A simple review of the Service Manual would have probably bring to light a few errors in assembly.  

[atadaskew]

Damn "insert the name of your bike brand" dealer.

They should double checked everything before buttoning it all up and giving Vern back the bike.  Those valve adjustments is a major thing for any bike.  Think of it as an open heart surgery.  A simple review of the Service Manual would have probably bring to light a few errors in assembly.  

[atypical1]

Damn Honda dealer.

They should double checked everything before buttoning it all up and giving Vern back the bike.  Those valve adjustments is a major thing for any bike.  Think of it as an open heart surgery.  A simple review of the Service Manual would have probably bring to light a few errors in assembly.  

Nah, it is just Honda. Everyone knows they are totally unreliable.

Where is that tongue in cheek smiley?


james

[Viffer Vern]

Nah, it is just Honda. Everyone knows they are totally unreliable.

Where is that tongue in cheek smiley?
javascript:void(0);

james

Maybe,  but at least my Honda doesn't have a tendency to fall over when I use it on muddy roads.  

[atypical1]

Maybe,  but at least my Honda doesn't have a tendency to fall over when I use it on muddy roads.  

That ain't the bike. It's the rider  

[ksann]

I think that Chili Man's extra weight caused all of your tire problems Sunday.

He was getting revenge for you trying to smoke him.


I could faintly hear him saying..."Don't smoke me bro..."






ken

[Tar Snake]

I think that Chili Man's extra weight caused all of your tire problems Sunday.

He was getting revenge for you trying to smoke him.


I could faintly hear him saying..."Don't smoke me bro..."

WOO-HOO Chiliman went for ride! Good Job!






ken

[Viffer Vern]

There are some pins and seals under the rear valve cover that have to be aligned up just right.  If these parts are damaged oil gets dumped straight into the exhaust port through the emission system.  

Just got off the phone with the dealer and it looks like the o rings are the culprit.  One was broken and the other one was torn.  

They also did a leak down test which showed 93%.  They said it wasn't great but not it wasn't bad either???  Can anyone make sense of this?  I assume that 100% is great but I don' know what the minimum acceptable percentage is.  

[ksann]

Most important thing with Leak-down is consistency across cylinders.

No engine will be 100% dry, and realistically, none will be 100% wet (with some oil in the cylinders).

The # is less important that knowing what all four are.

I assume that they are doing this for free, because they probably damaged it during the last service.



ken

[Viffer Vern]

They are doing it for free whether they know it or not.

[RedRocket]

They are doing it for free whether they know it or not.

As another OC VFR rider, I'm interested in knowing where it went for service.

[Viffer Vern]

As another OC VFR rider, I'm interested in knowing where it went for service.

Champion down in Costa Mesa.  I'm not officially dissing them as of yet.  Mistakes can happen.  It all depends on how they handle it when I pick up the bike.

[RedRocket]

That's the right attitude.  I always feel they're allowed to screw it up once, but hopefully they'll catch their error.
If not I've had pretty good service from O.C. Honda.

[Rogue]

Vern, I don't mean to add more fuel to the fire.  I've had a couple of Honda owners tell me of horror stories at Champion in CM.  Such things as installing a new chain fooked up, missing screws, misaligned body fairings, etc.  If they can't do simple stuff like that, well.....

Next time, try Mach One or do it yourself or don't do it at all.  An invasive procedure like that requires a really careful mechanic who has time in his hands with proper tools and Service Manual to do things right.  Right now, I know nobody in OC I can trust to do my VFR's valve inspection except myself.  I actually had mine done by Performance Motorsports in Irvine back when they had the British mechanics working for them.  They did a top notch job but that was back in 2004 and the dealership has since changed hands.  

At this point, when you get the bike back, do your own compression test.  It's easy with the VFR as access to the sparkplugs is simple.  Just to make sure, you know...like Ken said.  WTF do they mean by 93%?  93/100 for all cylinders?  They need to be clear and if they can't, they don't know WTF they're talking about!  Consistency for all 4 cylinders is what you're looking for.  

[ksann]

Whats the update Vern?





ken