**SPOILER CONTENT** Phillip Island 2008 WSBK thread

[DogBoy]

Phillip Island 2008 WSBK thread.




















First practice times are in from one of the coolest circuits in the world.

[Jeff N]

Would it be a spoiler to mention that Xaus crashed again?  

[squeezer]

Would it be a spoiler to mention that Xaus crashed again?  

No.  We'd have all guessed that anyway.

Speaking of crashes, does anyone have an update on Kagayama?  I never heard how badly he was hurt.

[DogBoy]

Broken collarbone.

link to SPEEDtv.com article

After their win in Qatar last weekend, Team Suzuki Alstare headed to Australia in good spirits, with Fonsi Nieto and Max Neukirchner, but without Yukio Kagayama.
The Japanese rider crashed in the second race and broke his left collarbone...

[JonS]

Bayliss crashed too, but Soup said they just stitched him up again and he did take pole. Should I have said that part?  

[greench440]

Holy crap,   what a start.  How does your boot get taken off like that?

Pretty intense crash after the red came out too.  

[greench440]

Race 2- Biaggi what a moran.

[tomek]

WSB is becoming joke again,the rules,it comes to one sentence,what can we do to make sure Ducatis are winning ??

Ducati wanted displacement increase so they "can run production based engines".So they built homolagation special 1098 R,not really production based,even that was not enough,they are allowed special parts like pistons on top of that.It is fucking joke,whatever improvements R4 guys make they will be to respond to it like in day or two of R&D.

[Yamadog]

Race 2- Biaggi what a moran.

That was a scary off! Offs in race 1 and 2 what a moron! Lucky to have just a broken wrist.
Ducks will pick up some weight after this Bayliss runaway I'd lay odds.

[falcofred]

FACT: Ducati did not have the highest top end speeds, some of the in-line fours actually posted faster top end speeds.
OPINION: Ducati does seem to be able to get the HP to the track coming out of corners better than the Japanese.
FACT: Fonzie Nieto is second in the championship and Honda took their fist podium of the season.
OPINION: If you factor out Troy Bayliss, argueably one of the all time greatest riders on his home track, Ducati does not really have an advantage.
Forgeting Troy on his home track, I saw Honda, Suzuki, Ducati and Yamaha (until Troy Corser crashed) all in the hunt for the podium.

[Nouroog]

FACT: Ducati did not have the highest top end speeds, some of the in-line fours actually posted faster top end speeds.
OPINION: Ducati does seem to be able to get the HP to the track coming out of corners better than the Japanese.
FACT: Fonzie Nieto is second in the championship and Honda took their fist podium of the season.
OPINION: If you factor out Troy Bayliss, argueably one of the all time greatest riders on his home track, Ducati does not really have an advantage.
Forgeting Troy on his home track, I saw Honda, Suzuki, Ducati and Yamaha (until Troy Corser crashed) all in the hunt for the podium.

Caught some of the second race this morning. I'll agree with fred here.   It's also early days in the season.

[Jetpilot5]

Is this the last year for Bayless?  I hadn't heard that he was retiring.

Some pretty wild crashes in those races.

[Gaolee]

Who needs the big bikes, Triumphs are running in WSS, and McCoy is a GOD!

[Busy Little Whiner]

Yea the Vs won... (stinky inlines) and it's going take the new V to defeat the old V... like Ducati's own son... the D16RR V4...

[Specter]

Holy crap,   what a start.  How does your boot get taken off like that?

I watched that on Tivo - slow mothion. You can see the boot fly into the air and land down range to the right. I think the bike that passed him on the right impacted it so hard it split in two. I wonder who his boot sponsor is?

[DFH]

Yea the Vs won... (stinky inlines) and it's going take the new V to defeat the old V... like Ducati's own son... the D16RR V4...

Ducati have repeatedly made public statements that they will not homologate the D16RR for WSBK. Bikes cannot be homologated for WSBK or any other FIM championship by a third party, only by manufacturer. Let it go Larry...

DFH

[Yamadog]

FACT: Ducati did not have the highest top end speeds, some of the in-line fours actually posted faster top end speeds.
OPINION: Ducati does seem to be able to get the HP to the track coming out of corners better than the Japanese.
FACT: Fonzie Nieto is second in the championship and Honda took their fist podium of the season.
OPINION: If you factor out Troy Bayliss, argueably one of the all time greatest riders on his home track, Ducati does not really have an advantage.
Forgeting Troy on his home track, I saw Honda, Suzuki, Ducati and Yamaha (until Troy Corser crashed) all in the hunt for the podium.

Since when are facts the determinant? Even the Jonathan Green and Steve Martin were already talking about weight penalties. BTW I don't care for Steve Martin as a color man. He seems kinda lost.

[st ryder]

Ducati have repeatedly made public statements that they will not homologate the D16RR for WSBK. Bikes cannot be homologated for WSBK or any other FIM championship by a third party, only by manufacturer. Let it go Larry...

DFH

I thought the number of street legal, "production" units sold to the public to meet the new sbk homologation requirement was 1000, up from the previous 150. Even if the D-16 is a "LE", 1500 units isn't enough?

[st ryder]

WSB is becoming joke again,the rules,it comes to one sentence,what can we do to make sure Ducatis are winning ??

Ducati wanted displacement increase so they "can run production based engines".So they built homolagation special 1098 R,not really production based,even that was not enough,they are allowed special parts like pistons on top of that.It is fucking joke,whatever improvements R4 guys make they will be to respond to it like in day or two of R&D.

The joke is that I-4 fans just can't accept that when the playing field is leveled with technical accommodations, the desmo L-twin is a superior racing engine on tighter circuits due to its power delivery characteristics.  This has been the story since the 851.

I-4 fans used to rave that in a no holds barred racing series, (ie MotoGP) where there were very few requirements, that Ducati couldn't win without the so-called "displacement advantage." Wrong again I-4 fans.  With no such "advantage", Ducati beat the best the big four has to offer, but still there are some complaints about rev limits, as in Ducati has an advantage with its antiquated desmos.  

I really wish Ducati would take a 10 year hiatus from factory racing at any level, and concentrate on developing dealer and parts networks in North America, while allowing privateers to race their developments. Ducati doesn't need to prove anything more to anybody. Let the I-4/big four apologists continue to whine rather than give credit where credit is due, and maybe one day they can all accept the simple truths that:  the technical rules level the playing field so both engine designs can compete equally, (since Ducati is such a small company, with sales that are a fraction of Honda and Yamaha, and who sell only motorcycles, not a plethora of weekend recreational products, it makes NO SENSE that a racing series intended to bolster the sales of STOCK motorcycles, would "conspire" to make the smallest player the most likely to win) that the L-twin delivers more tractable power, that the trellis frame works very well and is pleasing to look at, that Ducati's electronic fuel injection and traction control are probably the best, that the desmo valve train is superior for performance, then they may accept that Ducati builds better race bikes period, and that their winning history is based on much more than a displacement accommodation.  

[greench440]

 I wonder who his boot sponsor is?

I was thinking the same thing.

[Mr Sunshine]

That was a scary off! Offs in race 1 and 2 what a moron! Lucky to have just a broken wrist.
Ducks will pick up some weight after this Bayliss runaway I'd lay odds.

Ah he broke his wrist?  Bummer!

As to it being dumb...I wouldn't throw stones as that situation was pretty hairy as he was going much faster than the guy behind him due to the slip stream and then that guy made a cut for the corner (nothing wrong there).  Max had nowhere to go so he grabbed his brakes and off he went.

[Mr Sunshine]

I watched that on Tivo - slow mothion. You can see the boot fly into the air and land down range to the right. I think the bike that passed him on the right impacted it so hard it split in two. I wonder who his boot sponsor is?

Those were Sidi boots.

[falcofred]

WSB is becoming joke again,the rules,it comes to one sentence,what can we do to make sure Ducatis are winning ??

Ducati wanted displacement increase so they "can run production based engines".So they built homolagation special 1098 R,not really production based,even that was not enough,they are allowed special parts like pistons on top of that.It is fucking joke,whatever improvements R4 guys make they will be to respond to it like in day or two of R&D.

Maybe Honda will have to bring the RC-51 out of moth balls  and stroke it to 1200cc to compete with the 1098
They'll probably call it the RC-52 when they adapt a desmo valve train

[greench440]

As to it being dumb...I wouldn't throw stones as that situation was pretty hairy as he was going much faster than the guy behind him due to the slip stream and then that guy made a cut for the corner (nothing wrong there).  Max had nowhere to go so he grabbed his brakes and off he went.

So a multi-time, multi-series champ can't figure out the slipstream yet?  Like he's never passed someone who is slower than he is?  He was overly agressive and picked a dumb place to try and pass.

[Busy Little Whiner]

The joke is that I-4 fans just can't accept that when the playing field is leveled with technical accommodations, the desmo L-twin is a superior racing engine on tighter circuits due to its power delivery characteristics.  This has been the story since the 851.

The joke is that although new Duacti's are glamorous they are also gimpy... the old V2 relic needs
crutch after crutch to stay on pace with the 4 cylinders...

[st ryder]

The joke is that although new Duacti's are glamorous they are also gimpy... the old V2 relic needs crutch after crutch to stay on pace with the 4 cylinders...

I think Gilera was racing ohc I-4s in the late 50's and Ducati's L-twin desmo debuted in 1972, so who's racing with relics? Of the two, the desmo L-twin is the more modern design and has the better valve actuation system for racing. It seems to me that the I-4 should just fade away as it's been proved time after time that when things are equalised, they are the ones who need crutches to keep up to the Big Twins.  

For all their development, where are the v-5 and v-3 stock motorcycles? I see the v-fours are coming back to sbk in 2009 as are possibly 2 more twin teams. Finally, Ducati has some company in racing something that's different from those boring, buzzy, antiquated I-4s, and they are all European, ie Aprillia, BMW and KTM. No new I-4 teams: Go figure.  

[Busy Little Whiner]

I think Gilera was racing ohc I-4s in the late 50's and Ducati's L-twin desmo debuted in 1972, so who's racing with relics?

True... Gilera won the 1939 500cc World Championship for Italy with an air cooled across the
frame I4 piloted by D Serafini... so both the I4s and V2s are relics of the past whereas the V4
has just begun to race...

[Yamadog]

So a multi-time, multi-series champ can't figure out the slipstream yet?  Like he's never passed someone who is slower than he is?  He was overly agressive and picked a dumb place to try and pass.

Yep! My moron comment was as much about Race 1 as 2. He threw away really good points in both races trying to win rather than thinking about the season championship; OBTW his chances of winning either race were pretty slim IMO. Believe it's called racecraft.

[tomek]

[quote author=st ryder link=topic=22374.msg525470#msg525470 date=1204572







 It seems to me that the I-4 should just fade away as it's been proved time after time that when things are equalised, they are the ones who need crutches to keep up to the Big Twins.  

[/quote]

St ryder,5 bucks says you have no clue about technical regulations of WSB,like extra 200cc and special parts.In AMA where they have not been getting special treatment,or "things are equalised" even guys like Bostroms and Hodgson could not do anything against I4.As a matter of fact last V2 to win AMA championship was rc51,back in 750 I4 era.

[Mr Sunshine]

Yep! My moron comment was as much about Race 1 as 2. He threw away really good points in both races trying to win rather than thinking about the season championship; OBTW his chances of winning either race were pretty slim IMO. Believe it's called racecraft.

The points structure is such that if you want the championship you have to win.

[Aero]

True... Gilera won the 1939 500cc World Championship for Italy with an air cooled across the
frame I4 piloted by D Serafini... so both the I4s and V2s are relics of the past whereas the V4
has just begun to race...

Actually, the AJS V4 began racing in 1935. Nothing new under the sun...
Rumour has it that Honda bought the rights and developed it into the RC45...

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJS_V4

[Busy Little Whiner]

Actually, the AJS V4 began racing in 1935. Nothing new under the sun...
Rumour has it that Honda bought the rights and developed it into the RC45...

Thanks for point that out... there was also a liquid cool supercharged V4 by AJS... if only AJS had offered the first V4 to the public...

[Yamadog]

The points structure is such that if you want the championship you have to win.

Not true. One only has to look back to Toseland's '07 campaign to see that. Of course everyone wants to win every time out, but Max very well threw away second place points in both races--just isn't smart. Now with a broken left wrist the consequences are unknown, but the likelihood of a championship just went down the $h!tter.

[st ryder]

St ryder,5 bucks says you have no clue about technical regulations of WSB,like extra 200cc and special parts.In AMA where they have not been getting special treatment,or "things are equalised" even guys like Bostroms and Hodgson could not do anything against I4.As a matter of fact last V2 to win AMA championship was rc51,back in 750 I4 era.

You mean when fewer technical accommodations are allowed by the sanctioning body to level the playing field so differently configured power plants can compete equally, partly because the #1 rider for the racing series' major sponsor, (who was using traction control for years before it was legal) would complain vigorously when he had no clear advantage, and on race tracks with long straights where the inherit peak power advantage of the I-4 can be exploited, the 1 litre I-4s have an unfair advantage and will dominate. AMA championship? You mean the Suzuki Cup don't you?  

You fail to mention however, that in WSBK racing, the big stage, the 1 litre Ducati L-twin won what, 3 out of 5 championships racing against the 1 litre I-4s, once the playing field was leveled by technical accommodations, and on road racing tracks that feature fewer "drag strips."

Any I-4 argument goes like this: We are a superior engine because we make more power. If you can't make that power with the same displacement, that's your problem. Might is right. So when reasonably minded people, who understand that more than four companies should be able to compete for the good of the sport, make allowances for technical accommodations so other manufacturers, 1/10 the size of the big Japanese conglomerates, can give their engines close to the same horsepower, and can then go racing against 1 litre I-4s, the counter-argument/whinning starts when the I-4s lose because I-4 fans, whose typical mentality re horsepower is "mine's bigger than yours", can't accept that races can be won with bikes that make less horepower, as peak horsepower is the I-4's lone advantage/bragging right.

You can thank Ducati for doing far more for road racing than any of the big four who have sought to shut competition out and dominate the market rather than allowing fair access to other configurations. If things go as planned, BMW, and KTM will also be racing twins in WSBK thanks to Ducati's efforts against the hegemony of the big four, and how much more interesting will that series be to watch/hear than AMA/Suzuki Cup racing?

BTW, anybody with access to a computer can easily develop a "clue" about the regulations, they're not exactly in the realm of a privileged few.

[DogBoy]

Looks like we have another Busy Little Shop. Awesome!

[Gaolee]

   I was thinking the same thing.

[Yamadog]

 
I always thought that BLS should be BSL.    If only I had the right forum privileges...

[rodm850g]

Guys,
Did you know that SBK has a you-tube site...go there and search for Biaggis crash at Phillip Island.....
Looks as if the fellow skid a 1/4 mile...tore hole in his arse....but it wasnt funny......

                                Rod

[Nouroog]

Haven't been able to find footage of the other one.

[squeezer]

Haven't been able to find footage of the other one.

I think the cameras missed it.  They didn't show it during the race either.  There was just a shot of Max walking through the kitty litter.  Wasn't until I read this thread that I found out he broke his wrist.  Has any heard how bad it is?  Will be be back for Valencia?

I finally watched the races last night.  Those were great scraps behind Bayliss.  Bayliss' domination and the way the Ducs are able to come up through the field still make me a little leery of another "Ducati Cup" season, but I think it's still too early to really tell.  There's some great speed from everyone else too.  And the Honda hasn't had much track time.  It's a good bet they'll be hotter off the apex by midseason.

I came away from those races even more psyched about this season.  

I was a little surprised the commentators had such a hard time figuring out who had the jump starts.  The graphic was shown to us right away.  Don't those guys have scoring monitors?  

And do we really need the V4 discussion here given that there are exactly zero V4's on the grid?

[Nouroog]

And do we really need the V4 discussion here given that there are exactly zero V4's on the grid?

 

[Yamadog]

I think the cameras missed it.  They didn't show it during the race either.  There was just a shot of Max walking through the kitty litter.  Wasn't until I read this thread that I found out he broke his wrist.  Has any heard how bad it is?  Will be be back for Valencia?
snip

“I had the speed to do well in the first race,” he said, “but I lost the front end at the slow-speed hairpin, falling to the ground unexpectedly!”

and will be forced to miss the WSBK test at Valencia later in March.

[tomek]

 

You fail to mention however, that in WSBK racing, the big stage, the 1 litre Ducati L-twin won what, 3 out of 5 championships racing against the 1 litre I-4s, once the playing field was leveled by technical accommodations, and on road racing tracks that feature fewer "drag strips."

O.K.I`ve won 5 bucks.Unlike in US,in WSB Ducatis have been allowed special parts even in era of equal displacement.When they get no special treatment they stand no chance.If the v2 is so superior why in the hell Ducati is racing V4 in Moto GP ?. .

Cos V2 stands no chance vs mulitis on equal terms.

BTW,powerbands of 1000 cc I4 are Montana wide these days.

[Gaolee]

Bah.  They all just wish they were triples.

[Busy Little Whiner]

And do we really need the V4 discussion here given that there are exactly zero V4's on the grid?

You bet we need to discuss V4s because it's a shame there are zero V4s on the grid... everyone
wants to see their favorite engine architect compete... so let's bring them back by popular
demand... like haven't we seen enough I4s and V2s to last a life time???  

[Nouroog]

Popular demand being the key part of your post.

[Busy Little Whiner]

Popular demand being the key part of your post.

I'm working on that one rider at a time... so far I've gotten some favorable comments...

Quote DOC WONG 996 Ducati:
Hey Larry, Thanks for letting me ride your RC 45.  The bike was pretty amazing.  It was
deceptively fast and very light. How big is the motor on that thing? I was pretty impressed
with how comfortable the bike was even on the track. Your footpeg, handle bar and seat mods
made it easier to circulate around the track! My 996 felt like a tractor-tank compared to Mr RC45.



Quote Andrew S3 Triumph Triple
"OMG.  The RC45 is amazing.  It feels nothing like a VFR motor (Which I don't think is anything
special, anyhow.) The RC45 motor is amazing, smooth, torquey, not at all lumpy like I think of
the VFR. Larry may have converted me to a V4 aficionado."



Quote Denise Howard ARM racer #732 Honda 929 Aprilia RS250

I'm here to tell ya, Larry is right--V4's are a hoot! and I've ridden a VFR, it was nothing like
this, not the same! not at all. He offered to let me ride Mr. RC45 #2 for a few miles today, and
my only regret is that I didn't get to do any freeway squirts. The engine is sneaky-fast--it
doesn't rip your arms out of their sockets, and the engine doesn't sound like it's doing any
work, you just very (VERY) quickly realize "Hey, how come everything's going by so fast?!?"  
Nice ergos, too--the only sportbike I've ever sat on that comes close to that much comfort is
the Aprilia RS250. Everyone should have one of these.  Not the same! Not at all. I've ridden a
VFR, and it was nothing like this. How do we get Honda to start making them again? I'd even
trade in my 929. I've ridden a VFR, and it was nothing like this 8-)



Quote Holly Obert Honda VTR SuperHawk
Seeing as how I had ridden Andrew's Speed Triple, I had no decent way
to refuse Larry's offer to ride the RC45 later when we stopped at
Moskowite Corners. Poor Larry's heart sank at my enthusiasm for the
Triumph, and I began to feel like a Honda traitor. I would hate to be
the one who wrecks that bike, mostly because it is so special to
Larry. I was terrified of dropping it, terrified of the quick throttle
he put on it... just plain terrified, I suppose. But I settled into
that comfy seat he made, gently twisted the throttle, eased out the
clutch and sauntered on down the road.

And didn't come back for another ten miles! Compared to the Speed
Triple, the RC45 had a familiar V4 torquiness and sound, but it
vibrated a lot more than my old Magna, although in a totally different
way from my Superhawk. You know Larry's .sig, "music to the seat of my
pants?" I always wondered what that meant but now I know. I have only
ridden one inline four, but I don't remember it being like that,
either, so I think this must be a peculiar quality of the RC45 or
something. It was infinitely more flickable than my VTR, and super
light. I haven't ridden anything like an R6 or R1 or GSXR, so I can't
really compare it against a wide range of sportbikes. Maybe some of
this is just generic sportbike-ness, but to me, it certainly seemed
different and lots of fun.

It's also hard to say how much of it is due to the bike itself and how
much is due to Larry's modifications. He's got it so set up according
to his own preferences and mechanical inclinations, that riding his
RC45 is like getting to know him a little bit. I rolled back to the
Corners just as Larry was beginning to get a little worried. Thanks
for trusting me to ride it, Larry. Not many people will get a chance
to ride one of those.
 

[Galo]

 Hmmmmnnnnnn.......fun reads and I doubt nothing, but.....what does that last one have to do with Phillip Island?

[Nouroog]

Nothing. And I believe Larry's posted each of those very same quotes 17.2 times, give or take a tenth, already.

[Busy Little Whiner]

Nothing. And I believe Larry's posted each of those very same quotes 17.2 times, give or take a tenth, already.

I working on a new quote but DD turned me down during WCRM 4... like ain't no way in hell she
was going ride Mr.RC45...

[Yamadog]

I working on a new quote but DD turned me down during WCRM 4... like ain't no way in hell she
was going ride Mr.RC45...

I was about to post that she exhibits good taste but then I recalled she owns a KLR so...

[Busy Little Whiner]

I was about to post that she exhibits good taste but then I recalled she owns a KLR so...

Dantes Dame has the power... makes me nervous just being around her... because where she
goes... all of STN goes...

[Nouroog]

Honeys catch more flies than RC45s.

[NitrousGuy]

You mean when fewer technical accommodations are allowed by the sanctioning body to level the playing field so differently configured power plants can compete equally, partly because the #1 rider for the racing series' major sponsor, (who was using traction control for years before it was legal) would complain vigorously when he had no clear advantage, and on race tracks with long straights where the inherit peak power advantage of the I-4 can be exploited, the 1 litre I-4s have an unfair advantage and will dominate. AMA championship? You mean the Suzuki Cup don't you?  

You fail to mention however, that in WSBK racing, the big stage, the 1 litre Ducati L-twin won what, 3 out of 5 championships racing against the 1 litre I-4s, once the playing field was leveled by technical accommodations, and on road racing tracks that feature fewer "drag strips."

Any I-4 argument goes like this: We are a superior engine because we make more power. If you can't make that power with the same displacement, that's your problem. Might is right. So when reasonably minded people, who understand that more than four companies should be able to compete for the good of the sport, make allowances for technical accommodations so other manufacturers, 1/10 the size of the big Japanese conglomerates, can give their engines close to the same horsepower, and can then go racing against 1 litre I-4s, the counter-argument/whinning starts when the I-4s lose because I-4 fans, whose typical mentality re horsepower is "mine's bigger than yours", can't accept that races can be won with bikes that make less horepower, as peak horsepower is the I-4's lone advantage/bragging right.

You can thank Ducati for doing far more for road racing than any of the big four who have sought to shut competition out and dominate the market rather than allowing fair access to other configurations. If things go as planned, BMW, and KTM will also be racing twins in WSBK thanks to Ducati's efforts against the hegemony of the big four, and how much more interesting will that series be to watch/hear than AMA/Suzuki Cup racing?

BTW, anybody with access to a computer can easily develop a "clue" about the regulations, they're not exactly in the realm of a privileged few.

No offense, but think of your rationale in terms of this.....
Replace your v2 argument with a single cyclinder thumper. Handicap all multis and twins to comparible power figures of a thumper, and I'd wager that the thumper's torque spread would dominate.

[Gaolee]

I was about to post that she exhibits good taste but then I recalled she owns a KLR so...

You haven't seen her KLR.  It is COOL!  It has a Barbie lunch box strapped to the back, mostly because it is waterproof.  Nothing says   I don't care what you think better than a fading Barbie lunch box attached to a KLR.  If that isn't great, then nothing is.

[Yamadog]

You haven't seen her KLR.  It is COOL!  It has a Barbie lunch box strapped to the back, mostly because it is waterproof.  Nothing says   I don't care what you think better than a fading Barbie lunch box attached to a KLR.  If that isn't great, then nothing is.

Okay I'll concede that for a KLR it's cool, but still a KLR...