Target Fixation

[kpinvt]

 On October 8 2006 I was riding through a sweeping left hand turn when the right side of the road caught and held my attention. My handlebars felt locked and I couldn't turn them. I totally forgot about counter steering and tried to twist the bars to the left to no avail. I was quickly running out of pavement as I was headed off the road and figured I had better do something before running off through the trees. I slammed the brakes closed but had already run out of room to stop when the bike skidded off the the road and as soon as the front wheel hit the soft dirt on the shoulder the bike fell to the left and I wound up sliding to a stop facedown. Thank goodness for ATGATT. When the bike fell over my left boot was crushed between  the footpeg and the clutch casing giving my foot and ankle a severe sprain but not breaking it. I hit the pavement with my left hand, left knee and finally the face shield of my helmet. I know now I should have pushed on the left handlebar to go left. What I need to know is are there any strategies or exercises I can do to help me not do this again.

[forester]

 On October 8 2006 I was riding through a sweeping left hand turn when the right side of the road caught and held my attention.

What I need to know is are there any strategies or exercises I can do to help me not do this again.

Have you ever taken a MSF class?  You sound like a perfect candidate who could learn a lot from taking such a class.  There will be some MSF instructors who are contributors to this site along soon.

I would recommend taking a class before you even get on a m/c again.  There is no substitution for experience that is based off developing good habits practiced properly, and that's where you learn the good habits.

[bikerfish1100]

A bit more info on your personal history would be helpful, but working from what you've given so far, here is my assessment:
Sounds like you've done you're initial learning on the couch- reading some books about how to ride, what to do or not do, cognitively digesting the concepts of riding, but you have not taken a class giving you some direct assistance. That is how/why you know terms like "countersteering", "target fixation", "push on the left handlebar to go left", etc, but don't REALLY know how to apply them as effectively as you want/need.
So: sign up for a BRC- you can find one thru this link http://nm.msf-usa.org/msf/ridercourses.aspx?pagename=RiderCourse%20Info
Intellectually, you called it correctly; you target fixated. So intellectually, what you have to do is NOT fixate on a bad target (the tree, the sign, the side of the road, the side of the car, etc) and instead create your correct path of travel by looking where you want to go (around the curve, toward the next curve ahead of where you are, etc.), all while continuing to scan aggressively for other issues of concern (animals, obstacles, vehicles, roadway conditions, etc).
In the BRC you'll get to work on developing all of these skills through riding, rather than just reading about them  
Glad you weren't more badly hurt, and that you are seeking help in improving your riding skills.

[Thor]

As an MSF Rider Coach (but in no way representing or even acknowledging that they know me - other coaches will get that one), a class would be good, but target fixation is a natural reaction that you have to learn to fight.

If you practice and get the tools to control your bike, it is easier to fight, but even road racers have to force themselves, hard, to look past a crashing bike and not follow it off the track.

I watched an experienced rider go through an intersection this summer, target fixate on the shoulder, and almost ride off the road.  I don't think it ever goes away.

The key is LOOKING WHERE YOU WANT TO GO, and having the confidence to go there.

If something is a big enough distraction, it will pull your vision, and your bike, in that direction.  I think by recognizing that this happens and knowing that you need to fight it is a good start.

This is similar to one of the most common new rider crash scenarios.  The rider gets spooked by a corner and stands the bike up and gets on the brakes.  They have slowed to a speed where they could make the corner without leaning much, but they continue on off the road at this very slow speed.

Why wouldn't they just turn?  Target fixation.  You stare at the side of the road, or whatever obstacle you don't want to hit and go right towards it.  Your body involuntarily joins in on this and you can't turn until you look where you want to go vs. looking where you don't want to go.

I'm so used to the effects of target fixation that I can't remember the last time it had an effect on me, but I know it effects me in some way on every ride.  Looking all the way through the turn is how I fight it.

[jstark47]

Thor's response is helpful.  You other guys need to stop being patronizing and get down out of your pulpits.  Almost the same thing happened to my wife in April 2005.  She took the BRC in August 2004, so her problem wasn't lack of MSF training.  In her words, it was simply inattention combined with a panic reaction.  It happens.  She analyzed her mistake, figured out corrective measures and moved on.  

Until you know what the OP's actual experience is, statements like "taking a class before you even get on a m/c again" and "Sounds like you've done you're initial learning on the couch" are just obnoxious.  Get over yourselves.  

[rottenbiker]

It's funny,...get over themselves?? They all had good recommendations. I also teach BRC's and ERC's and run a training site as my full time job. When my students leave I tell them they have just learned to ride on a parking lot and that they should get lots more experience on a parking lot and rural areas at controled speeds before going out and trying to keep up with friends or a spouse. I do not have a problem with my self-esteem as a rider. I do however hear to often of riders who have been off bikes for years or newbies who go out buy that bike they have always wanted and end up in trouble because they have no clue how to handle it. It is like anything you do in life. Do I think I can ski well after being off skis for 4 yrs....heck no! If you don't use it it goes away, and if you have never experienced it reading may give you the fundamental thought but you still haven't had the experience. It is better practiced in a safer place then on the street with other traffic to deal with. It is also better to practice under the eye of a trained instructor, who knows how to recognize what it will take to help the student out.  Who are you to be critical of these other guys who are advising learning good skills before getting out on the road? It comes off that you are encouraging the "new" guy to just go out and teach himself. Why don't you go enroll in an instructor course and then tell us what you think.....

[Y.B Slo]

Some of the best advice I have ever heard is; Keep your eyes up,Always look where you want the bike to go. I failed my first endorsement test on a u-turn, because I looked down. Droping the bike right where I was looking.  The second test, I kept my eyes up and looked through the u-turn and it was amazingly easy! The bike just seemed turn on it's own and go right where I was looking.And now after 20+ years of riding, I still find myself fighting target fixation.

[cbsnbiker]

Hi, kpvint. First off, congrats on wearing ATGATT, and coming through this experience in much better condition than could have been the case. Best wishes for healing well and soon.

Believe it or not, the answer to your question is contained in your message:

 On October 8 2006 I was riding through a sweeping left hand turn when the right side of the road caught and held my attention. My handlebars felt locked and I couldn't turn them....

What I need to know is are there any strategies or exercises I can do to help me not do this again.

When you looked away from where you were going and fixed your attention on the side of the road, all of a sudden your riding skills went awry. You're already aware of this, considering that you described a classic target fixation scenario, and even named the thread "target fixation."

So, how to fix this? The answer sounds flippant, but I don't mean it that way: don't fixate. Don't stare at the side of the road. Instead, look through the turn as far as you can, towards where you want to end up. If need be, tear your gaze away from the side of the road to look where you're going, to the end of the curve or even beyond.

Now, how to do this? As several others have mentioned, taking a riding course is one excellent way to learn and practice this skill. Depending on your skill level, that could be an MSF course, or perhaps some other parking lot course, or perhaps a track course. Learning and practicing skills such as these in a controlled environment removes a bunch of real-world variables and hazards from the equation. It allows you to concentrate on the skills at hand without worrying about, say, deer or other drivers. Coaches can catch your errors and help you develop improved skills.

When riding on your own, practice looking through the turn to where you want to end up. Start doing so at lower speeds in lower-threat curves, then gradually work your way up to higher speeds and more challenging situations. Make it a permanent habit. Own this skill.

Is that to say that you should just stare at the exit of the curve, complely ignoring everything around you? No. You need to keep your eyes open and scanning for potential hazards. The key is not to fixate on anything, and keep the main part of your attention on where you want to end up.

Finally, I'm curious--what led you to target fixate in that particular curve? Was there a hazard by the side of the road, such as a deer? Were you spooked by something involving the ride--maybe too fast an entry speed--that led you to panic and stare off the road? Or maybe there was a cute girl or guy (whichever floats your boat) who caught your attention?  

Best wishes for your convalescence. Let us know if you have any more questions. We're happy to help.

[Saucy Jack]

a technique i recommend for helping to overcome target fixation is something that might be called "rehearsal".

what you need to do is to ingrain as deeply as possible the habit of looking where you want to go and pressing on the bar to that side. it's not a natural reaction, so repetition is required to make it stick.

while riding through a turn--or even on straight piece of road--in a safe situation (no traffic, good visibility), declare a "moose turd drill". that skid mark on the pavement or shadow up ahead, right on your line, is a big steamy moose turd with a coefficient of friction only slightly better than black ice. your job is to avert your eyes from the imaginary turd, focus on a safe path *around* it, and alter your line to avoid it.

give yourself plenty of lead time so you don't put yourself in danger by making a hard steering correction necessary. the power of the exercise isn't in speeding up your reaction, it's in impressing the visual habit on your brain.

[jstark47]

Who are you to be critical of these other guys who are advising learning good skills before getting out on the road?

Let me spell it out for ya, since you didn't get it the first time: you, and forester & bikerfish are all assuming the OP didn't get training.  He target fixated, he had the temerity to ask about such a basic concept, he must not have had training....  He didn't say whether he's taken the BRC or not.  I don't know if he has.  You don't know if he has.  Until he posts that he hasn't, maybe that's not the root of his problem?  Dig?

Thor, God bless him, actually dealt with the topic at hand.  

I have no issue with MSF curricula.  I have no issue with anyone recommending an MSF course to a newbie or a returning rider.  It would be kinda hypocritical if I had, since I've done the same myself.  I do have an issue with the chain of reasoning that automatically assumes someone coming on here and posting about a problem must therefore not have taken training.  Wait until the OP actually says he never took a class.

It comes off that you are encouraging the "new" guy to just go out and teach himself. Why don't you go enroll in an instructor course and then tell us what you think.....

And, BTW, since my comments were addressed directly to forrester & bikerfish, and indirectly to thor, maybe you could point out where I encouraged the OP to go out and do anything?

[R1150RTMark]

I can only add one thing, kpinvt - to what Thor had to say.  What helps me focus far through the corner is a combination of keeping the head and eyes up and my body posture.  I lean off the inside-corner side of the bike slightly, point my chin toward that inside mirror, and keep my head and eyes up and level with the horizon - it forces me to look far ahead through the corner.  I've seen it described as if you are 'looking around your windshield (if any) like you would lean and look around the edge of a door'.  The posture doesn't have to be drastic or unnerving - just a little lean that way helps big time.  It basically keeps you engaged in the ride and almost forces your body to properly countersteer.  Leaning toward the inside of a turn, it would be hard to try to 'steer' the bars to the inside - because the 'wrong' hand is way out extended toward the outside of the turn.  When you're leaning this way, with chin pointed toward the inside mirror and elbows being relaxed - it's almost impossible NOT to countersteer and keep your vision focused well ahead through the turn.  At least that's been my experience.

[bikerfish1100]

jstark- since you addressd me directly in your caustic response, let me explain why it is I thought that kpinvt has not yet had formal training- and i did state at the outset that i was making an assumption, that it "sounded like" he had not yet had a class, not that i was sure of that at all-
certain verbs that he used triggered my initial assumption:
"I totally forgot about counter steering"- forgetting is a primarily mental operation, rarely a physical one.
"figured I had better do something"- again, a verb of thinking, not acting.
"I know now I should have pushed on the left handlebar to go left"- yet again, a verb of thinking.
these combined together to lead me to believe that he had/has an understanding of these operations as concepts, but not necessarly as ingrained behavioral patterns or techniques. and as others have stated, avoiding target fixation requires both a mental component and a behavioral one.
i am totally open to the idea that he had some measure of training, possibly even an MSF class, but from what he wrote, it really does not sound like it. when we finally hear back from him, we will have a better sense of what his experience is.
and as far as your comment "maybe you could point out where I encouraged the OP to go out and do anything?" - i guess that clarifies that unlike everyone else, you have added absolutely nothing to address kpinvt's question.

[rottenbiker]

jstark47, you might want to check out number 1 of this link http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,981.0.html

[Cpl Punishment]

Hope this is helpful. It's meant to be (unlike my most of my posts).
Forget "target fixation". When going round a corner, look for the vanishing point-that's the bit you can see as far ahead as you can. Aim for that. Of course, the vanishing point moves-cause you are. If the corner is tightening, the vanishing point will seem to come up closer in whichever way the bend is turning (right hand bend, vanishing point moves up to the right-if it's coming toweard you, it's getting tighter, if moving away, it's opening up, same for the left but opposite).
Don't pick a target, unless you either know the bend well or can see through it. If you do either, or guess the bend, you will also know when to turn in to flatten the curve as much as you can (forget that crap about chicken strips, bikes work better upright). Avoid picking markers-or targets-like a tree or something in a bend, as this will stop you allowing for surprises and the fact that you are moving (!). The marker doesn't move. You are.
For turning into a bend, it might be useful to pick just one and practice over and over, gradually incresasing your speed and getting your turning point just right. Don't go faster than you feel comfortable with.
Braking in a bend tends to lead to the bike standing up and then running wide-looks like that's what happened here.
And buy really decent boots. Should stop ankle injuries. I wear Oxtar but would buy Daytona if I could.
Hope the ankles better soon.

[kevin_stevens]

 On October 8 2006 I was riding through a sweeping left hand turn when the right side of the road caught and held my attention. My handlebars felt locked and I couldn't turn them. I totally forgot about counter steering and tried to twist the bars to the left to no avail. I was quickly running out of pavement as I was headed off the road and figured I had better do something before running off through the trees. I slammed the brakes closed but had already run out of room to stop when the bike skidded off the the road and as soon as the front wheel hit the soft dirt on the shoulder the bike fell to the left and I wound up sliding to a stop facedown. Thank goodness for ATGATT. When the bike fell over my left boot was crushed between  the footpeg and the clutch casing giving my foot and ankle a severe sprain but not breaking it. I hit the pavement with my left hand, left knee and finally the face shield of my helmet. I know now I should have pushed on the left handlebar to go left. What I need to know is are there any strategies or exercises I can do to help me not do this again.

When I start fighting the bars like this I consciously tell/force myself to relax my top (outside) arm and rest it on the tank.  In fact, that's part of my corner entry checklist.  That "bars feel locked" sensation is because you're subconsciously resisting the force you're applying with your inside hand, because your mind is saying "can't turn more, can't turn more".  Some will just say relax your grip, but that's much harder to do, and relaxing the arm will accomplish the same thing.

KeS

[Cpl Punishment]

When I start fighting the bars like this I consciously tell/force myself to relax my top (outside) arm and rest it on the tank.  In fact, that's part of my corner entry checklist.  That "bars feel locked" sensation is because you're subconsciously resisting the force you're applying with your inside hand, because your mind is saying "can't turn more, can't turn more".  Some will just say relax your grip, but that's much harder to do, and relaxing the arm will accomplish the same thing.

KeS

You're as cool as ice. I try to keep both hands on the bars in corners!

[kevin_stevens]

Well, I didn't say LET GO of the grip, just let your top arm relax and lay against the tank.  

But yes, as an exercise I do sometimes open my grip on the top hand and lay it flat on the bar.  Amazing how easy it is to steer when you're not pushing against yourself!  

KeS

[Cpl Punishment]

Well, I didn't say LET GO of the grip, just let your top arm relax and lay against the tank.  

But yes, as an exercise I do sometimes open my grip on the top hand and lay it flat on the bar.  Amazing how easy it is to steer when you're not pushing against yourself!  

KeS

You've got a big fat Harley, haven't you?

[kevin_stevens]

Why yes, I do.  I just disguised it by putting Gixxer bodywork all over it.  

KeS

[Thor]

Well, I didn't say LET GO of the grip, just let your top arm relax and lay against the tank.  

But yes, as an exercise I do sometimes open my grip on the top hand and lay it flat on the bar.  Amazing how easy it is to steer when you're not pushing against yourself!  

KeS

I ride with my elbows in tight which causes my outside arm to go across the tank on sportbikes.  I used to let go of the bar in right hand turns due to my tank bag.  Then I had to go more left in a decreasing radius.  I don't use tank bags anymore.  (Maybe this year I'll try to ride with my outside elbow out farther - something to work on.)

[Cpl Punishment]

Why yes, I do.  I just disguised it by putting Gixxer bodywork all over it.  

KeS

How very sensible. I admire your courage-me, I wouldn't be seen dead riding either. Salute!

[Windblown]

Target fixation is simply the result of allowing yourself to get into some bad habits by not practicing good ones.

Your problem could be the result of one or more of the following:

Riding the front wheel (not looking out ahead where you want the bike to travel)

Not taking time to practice object avoidance.

Not turning your head to look where you want the bike to go.

Riding scared.

Ask yourself this: If you see something small in the road (A wet spot, gravel, road patch, dead squirrel, whatever) does the bike seem to gravitate towards it, or do you seem to have trouble not hitting it if the object is in the bikes path?  If the answer is yes (or sometimes) then you need to start religiously practicing "finding the escape path". It's a little game I play with any noticeable spot in the road.  The process is simple:  Identify, assess, switch focus to an escape path, and execute.   I can occasionally be seen swerving back and forth like a mad man down quiet country roads. What I'm doing is playing this game with any small spots I can see in the road. Do this regularly and you will be amazed how automatic it becomes to apply proper counter-steering inputs and put your focus where it belongs.

If you ONLY have the problem when coming into a turn hot then chances are you simply freeze up when scared which is a natural reaction. The more you practice good habits in everyday riding the more likely your automatic response when in "oh crap" mode will be the right one.

Go do some trackdays!  The combination of hurtling headlong into corners at seemingly insane speeds and having other riders sliding off the track in front of you will force you to develop better habits.    

[kpinvt]

 Thank you all for taking the time to reply. I should have given more info in my first post. So here is the full story. I am a graduate of both the BRC and ERC given here in Vermont. I am just shy of 53 y.o. and I am on my third bike in as many years. First an SV650, then the 454LTD which was totaled in the crash and now a 2003 Silver Wing. Your great replies jogged some memories of that day such as the fact I was more than a little annoyed at how the day was progressing. I had planned to meet friends at a scenic overlook that afternoon. The trip out took quite awhile longer than I thought it would take as I had to sit through a major repaving job on the road out there. When I got there I had to ride up a steep, sandy fire road to get to the parking area and then discovered I had left the cable lock I had planned on using to lock my gear to the bike at home. I figured I could throw my gear into my friends car when they got there but they were an hour late and got there after I had suited up and was sitting on the bike ready to leave. The trip down the fire road was just as hairy as I had to stop on the left side of the road to let an SUV pass on the way up. The bike slid about a dozen feet when I applied the brakes. I continued down to the road and decided took take an alternate route home to avoid the paving delays. The ride down this narrow forrest road was horrible. The pavement was very badly broken with many frost heaves from the preceding year still present. About two miles short of where this narrow road intersects with the state highway that would take home I came upon fresh pavement so I sped up a little and took that turn a little faster than I should have. What is odd is half way through the turn I was opposite the entrance to a campground my wife and I frequent and did not look at it once before crashing. I think I was a little surprised at how soon I had reached the entrance thinking it was further down the road. I do remember hitting the brakes and then looking at a spot on the road just to the left of the right side. That spot is right where I landed.  The park rangers at the campground were very helpful in helping me get the bike off the side of the road and into the entranceway. I was amazed the bike started and rode it 40 miles home over a roundabout route to avoid some of the bigger towns as my headlight was now filled with grass and dirt. I found out later that the forks were bent and twisted to the right about 5 to 10 degrees. I went back up there a week later on crutches and hobbled around for an hour trying to figure out what had happened. It wasn't until several days later that I figured it was target fixation.

[kpinvt]

 Dang! I left out the fact that there was nothing unusual about that part of the road. The only difference between that spot and the rest of the road is I had been riding under the cover of trees overhanging the road so it was quite shady until I got to the campground entrance which is in an open area with no overhanging trees.

[bikerfish1100]

well KP, with the additional info you offered, i'm guessing that "target fixation" was the straw that broke the camel's proverbial back. but in a more general sense, it sounds like with all the events of that day that you were in a state of emotional and mental overload/exhaustion even before you locked into your landing spot, and it was more than mental draining that caused the getoff. here's what i heard-
you were angered about the delay due to the paving job, feeling rushed to get to your meeting time/spot, had a stressful and "mind consuming" ride up the hill, got more annoyed waiting around for friends that weren't there, were ticked about the forgotten lock, had a repeat of the stressful ride down the hill, experienced a likely adrenalin hit to the body and brain from the 12 foot brake lock up (and the physiological decompression that comes about 15-30 minutes later as it releases from your system), and the stress of riding that frost heaved forest roadway. All of these peices acted to drain your "attentional back account" even more. Riding those technically challenging roads such as what you described takes a great deal of mental energy out of us, but in a way that we may not readily recognize. Keith Code talks about having $10 of mental energy to spend, (and you can never withdraw more than that from your account), and you had already spent a boatload of it on a variety of "purchases". then, when you finally get to some clean pavement, you speed up, and likely as not you entered that corner faster than you were ready to handle that day at that time. on another day, or without all the stresses you'd been through, you would probably have been fine. the fact that "I think I was a little surprised at how soon I had reached the entrance thinking it was further down the road" is another indicator that you were mentally not where you needed to be.
with some self reflection, you'll know whether my analysis is pertinent to you or not. if so, your best preventative solution would have been to take a break after getting off that frost destroyed road- but in reality most of us would rarely be willing to do that under conditions that you've described.  fix #2- recognize when you are mentally stressed, and keep your speeds down to a safer level so that you can better handle the inputs and operations.
also- how much experience did you have on the LTD? changing bikes every year (and heading downhill in the performance venue at that) does not lead to improved capability, especially in changing from a sporty modern bike like a SV650 to an older cruiser like  the LTD.

 

[kpinvt]

 (Hope this isn't too much info.) As far as experience on the LTD, it was about three times the SV, which isn't saying much. I bought the SV while I was shopping for an LTD. I was led astray by a pretty face. The SV was a great bike on the road so long as I was moving, as soon as I stopped, the bike would head for the pavement. I have no idea why that is. The last time I rode the SV I dropped it at a stop sign in front of an oncoming car. I barely managed to twist my upper body away and push against the side of the car to avoid having my helmeted head run over. That incident kept me from riding the bike for the next two months. I would suit up and just sit in my living room while trying to work up the nerve to get back on the bike. I finally traded the bike to a contractor for a new back door and eleven vinyl windows. I did not want to admit defeat and sell all my gear on Ebay like the guy I bought the stuff from who got spooked and quit. I found the LTD here in Vermont in a barn about 50 miles from my house and to tell the truth I should have left it right there, 40K miles, loud pipes and missing or inoperable equipment. The bike never ran very well and had a persistant over heating problem that would not allow me to ride any further than about 40 miles without having to stop. Anyway, I put about 800 miles on the bike. After the crash and after finding too much damage to justify spending the money to fix the LTD I decided to junk it. I don't have a garage, so working on the bike in my driveway would be a big problem. I bought the SWing after figuring out what I wanted most in bike and saw this bike on Ebay with lots added equipment and jumped on it.

[Windblown]

You're saying you have about 1000 miles total experiance on bikes and have been down twice?

Now don't get me wrong, I've been down a bunch of times. But two in the first 1000 miles would be enough to make most folks ride scared.

My suggestion: Short rides, don't ride unless your head is into the RIDE. Practice emergency manuvers everytime you ride.  

[bikerfish1100]

 (Hope this isn't too much info.) The SV was a great bike on the road so long as I was moving, as soon as I stopped, the bike would head for the pavement. I have no idea why that is. The last time I rode the SV I dropped it at a stop sign in front of an oncoming car.

think about where you were looking when you would come to a stop. likely as not, your eyes were down on the ground, so it would be totally natural for the bike to want to follow. as you (should have) learned in your classes, keeping your eyes up helps to provide the balance that you need in riding.
sounds like moving over to the SW was a good call.

[Corbeau]

If something is a big enough distraction, it will pull your vision, and your bike, in that direction.

[BLARNEY]

 I have rehearsed a little mantra in my head over and over and over.

 I yank it out in times of panic.


 look through the turn
 ease of the brakes
 turn the bike


 This has got me out of more bad situtations than I can count.


 Tom

[kevin_stevens]

 I have rehearsed a little mantra in my head over and over and over.

 I yank it out in times of panic.

Works for me.

KeS

[bikerfish1100]

 I have rehearsed a little mantra in my head over and over and over.

 I yank it out in times of panic.

Works for me.

KeS

that could get you into just as much trouble as it might get you out of.  

[Mr Sunshine]

that could get you into just as much trouble as it might get you out of.  

wtf?

[kpinvt]

Yep. You're absolutely right.

[R1150RTMark]

wtf?

Read Nick Ienatsch's book, 'Sport Riding Techniques' (if you haven't already )and I think you'll see what bikerfish1100 means.

But in reality - Blarney was talking about yanking the MANTRA out of his head.

Ease off the brakes (or better yet - onto them) is exactly what Nick preaches.  Smoothness.

MEthinks there was a little miscommunication going.  I don't think Blarney was talking about yanking the bike - but rather yanking the mantra out of his head.

[bikerfish1100]

actually, i was referring to Kevin's idea about "yanking it out in times of panic" as being a good method for getting out of/into trouble.
same as he had previously.




it's a joke son, i say, it's a joke.

[shah269]

Dude it happens to the best of us. It can happen to you at 10mph or at 100mph.
I don't know but some times it just happens, the more you ride and the more classes you take the better off  you will be but some times....it just happens.
My two cents, get your self back up clean your self up get better and get back on the bike.
If not then sell it all off and pick up a safer week end hobby like knife throwing!
But dude it just happens!

[cbsnbiker]

Thor's response is helpful.  You other guys need to stop being patronizing and get down out of your pulpits.  Almost the same thing happened to my wife in April 2005.  She took the BRC in August 2004, so her problem wasn't lack of MSF training.  In her words, it was simply inattention combined with a panic reaction.  It happens.  She analyzed her mistake, figured out corrective measures and moved on.  

Until you know what the OP's actual experience is, statements like "taking a class before you even get on a m/c again" and "Sounds like you've done you're initial learning on the couch" are just obnoxious.  Get over yourselves.  

You didn't address me directly, but I think I can throw some light on this.

The motorcycle community has already made great strides in embracing the idea of novices entering riding by taking a BRC (or equivalent) course, and already-experienced riders brushing up on their skills by taking an ERC (or equivalent) course.

Recent crash studies strongly suggest that riders who take a riding course demonstrate the benefits of it (in reduced crash statistics) most strongly in the first six months after the course. Alas, crash studies also demonstrate that crashes and fatalities are on the rise, most prominently in the older generation.

In what I assume is a constructive response to this, the MSF is moving towards emphasizing lifelong learning. So, instead of just taking a BRC and calling it a day (or a life), riders can benefit from continuing their riding education throughout their lives. This can take many forms including: riding (of course), reading books, attending seminars, networking (as we're doing on this board), and taking additional riding courses.

kpinvt described a scenario that can be addressed quite effectively by taking an ERC (or similar course). He could tell his coaches about his experience and request that they focus on countersteering. Then they could help him achieve his goals.

Think of the ERC as one form of continuing education--but a lot more fun than some refresher course for work. At least I hope so.  

[cbsnbiker]

 (Hope this isn't too much info.) As far as experience on the LTD, it was about three times the SV, which isn't saying much. I bought the SV while I was shopping for an LTD. I was led astray by a pretty face. The SV was a great bike on the road so long as I was moving, as soon as I stopped, the bike would head for the pavement. I have no idea why that is. The last time I rode the SV I dropped it at a stop sign in front of an oncoming car. I barely managed to twist my upper body away and push against the side of the car to avoid having my helmeted head run over. That incident kept me from riding the bike for the next two months. I would suit up and just sit in my living room while trying to work up the nerve to get back on the bike. I finally traded the bike to a contractor for a new back door and eleven vinyl windows. I did not want to admit defeat and sell all my gear on Ebay like the guy I bought the stuff from who got spooked and quit. I found the LTD here in Vermont in a barn about 50 miles from my house and to tell the truth I should have left it right there, 40K miles, loud pipes and missing or inoperable equipment. The bike never ran very well and had a persistant over heating problem that would not allow me to ride any further than about 40 miles without having to stop. Anyway, I put about 800 miles on the bike. After the crash and after finding too much damage to justify spending the money to fix the LTD I decided to junk it. I don't have a garage, so working on the bike in my driveway would be a big problem. I bought the SWing after figuring out what I wanted most in bike and saw this bike on Ebay with lots added equipment and jumped on it.

It's hard to diagnose exactly what's going on with your riding without actually seeing you in action, but we might be able to give you a few helpful tips.

For example, you mentioned that your SV worked well for you except when you would come to a stop. Herer are a few ideas of things that might have led to this:

• Do you keep your eyes up and square the bars when you come to a stop? If you look down and/or are leaning at all when stopping, that can lead to you tipping over.
• How do you use your brakes when you stop? If your instinct is to grab your front brake, that can cause you to tip over as your front tire loses traction. This will be exascerbated if you do so while still leaned over (without squaring the bars).
• How well did the SV fit you? If you are short legged, you might have had difficulty reaching the ground with your feet.
• Etc.

As others have suggested, maybe you should consider taking an ERC again. You could tell the coaches about your experiences, and ask them for help in diagnosing the problems and helping you practice skills that will help you improve your riding.

How do you like that Silverwing? I haven't had the opportunity to ride one yet. I'd like to do so someday.  

[Jeff N]

These are some good responses, but may I offer some of my own?

First, what is target fixation? That's an easy one. Your focus has been locked onto a particular object.

The solution? Learn to recognize objects outside your focus.

What are you doing right now? You're reading your screen, right?

So, in front of you you've got the screen (of course) but what surrounds it? A whole bunch of detritus, no?

Turn the machine off.

Sit in a chair set in front of a wall that has a central object but maybe has some objects scattered about the same wall.

Go ahead and focus on your central object.

Now, without moving your eyes, can you notice what else is on that wall? Is it a picture? Remember, don't move your eyes.

Was it that curious sculptural form of stucco on your wall? Remember, eyes straight.

Oh look, that's our wedding picture. Eyes still straight, but you noticed it, right? (It's the car that's gonna pull out in front of you) You can't give details of the pic (like the maid of honor was hot and you can't remember if you did her) but your eyes are still straight yet you noticed it nonetheless. And you reacted in a positive manner. You remained focused on what's truly important and that is maintaining a true and safe course. You can explain it all later. The important part is that you survive this turn.

For now.

Sit in that chair and focus on that object. That's your horizen and point of exit. Whilst seated try to pick out all the bits that might be of interest without moving your eyes.

It's an easy exercise.

[Xiaoding]

Dude, stick with the scooter, perhaps bikes are a little too much for you.    It's a skill not everyone has.

Target fixation:  move something.  Anything.  Jump up in your seat, let out the clutch,  scream, hit your helmet with your hand, just get your eyes off the spot of death.    Also, don't go down with the ship, jump off the bike if you can...beats getting slammed down with the bike.

Counter steering is nice, but it's not the only way to steer.  The SV can be yanked any way you want to go, no handlebar input needed.  It's an option you need to be aware of, if you are on the kind of bike that allows it.  Also, steering with the rear, as it's called, eliminates the possibility of a tank slapper, which I got one day, due to excessive counter steering input.  By me.  

Good luck!

[Desmo Demon]

I've been on the road for over 13 years and logged over 100k miles, and I still run into situations where I may target fixate, but......I overcome it before I end up crashing. Most of the time, though, it happens when I'm on a stretch of road that I know and I become complacent. I kick into automatic/cruise-control and just ride, often times daydreaming abotu somethign other than riding (I really need to quit doing this), then.....it happens....there's a stick, rock, dead animal, road debris, or anything that is out of the normal for that road....It catches me offguard....I catch myself staring (and steering) right toward it....then, it dawns on me what I'm doing....I look away, find a section of the road to look at, and safely avoid the situation. Sometimes, if I am trying to figure out what the item is/was or want to mentally process it some more, I pick a section of road near it to look at and let my peripherial view help me continue processing the item......the best way to avoid target fixation is to overcome it....to overcome it, you have to experience it....over, and over, and over, again.

[Cpl Punishment]

I've been on the road for over 13 years and logged over 100k miles, and I still run into situations where I may target fixate, but......I overcome it before I end up crashing. Most of the time, though, it happens when I'm on a stretch of road that I know and I become complacent. I kick into automatic/cruise-control and just ride, often times daydreaming abotu somethign other than riding (I really need to quit doing this), then.....it happens....there's a stick, rock, dead animal, road debris, or anything that is out of the normal for that road....It catches me offguard....I catch myself staring (and steering) right toward it....then, it dawns on me what I'm doing....I look away, find a section of the road to look at, and safely avoid the situation. Sometimes, if I am trying to figure out what the item is/was or want to mentally process it some more, I pick a section of road near it to look at and let my peripherial view help me continue processing the item......the best way to avoid target fixation is to overcome it....to overcome it, you have to experience it....over, and over, and over, again.

Thjat is the best advice on this thread so far. Don't let a crash dim your enthusiam (clearly hasn't). You'll make afine biker, Kvint, because you reflect and are honest about your mistakes. Good on you and may the sun shine on you and yours.

[R1150RTMark]

Counter steering is nice, but it's not the only way to steer.  The SV can be yanked any way you want to go, no handlebar input needed.  It's an option you need to be aware of, if you are on the kind of bike that allows it.  Also, steering with the rear, as it's called, eliminates the possibility of a tank slapper, which I got one day, due to excessive counter steering input.  By me.  

Good luck!

I'm gonna resist the urge to say exactly what I'm thinking.  But tell you what - next time you're out and about, try this little experiment.  Take your hands TOTALLY off the handlebars when you approach a turn - any turn - and leave them off.  Adjust your entry speed with an easy application of the rear brake.  Then - using only the shifting of your body weight - execute the turn.

Get back to us on the results and let us know if you are still as enthusiastic to ignoring countersteering and utilize just 'yanking' the bike where you want it to go.  K?

[bikerfish1100]

what Mark on the RT said  

[Xiaoding]

I'm gonna resist the urge to say exactly what I'm thinking.  But tell you what - next time you're out and about, try this little experiment.  Take your hands TOTALLY off the handlebars when you approach a turn - any turn - and leave them off.  Adjust your entry speed with an easy application of the rear brake.  Then - using only the shifting of your body weight - execute the turn.

Get back to us on the results and let us know if you are still as enthusiastic to ignoring countersteering and utilize just 'yanking' the bike where you want it to go.  K?

I do it all the time.  Learn how your bike steers.  I never said "ignore" counter steering, I said that it is not the only way, and not always the best way, to steer the bike.  You should learn to handle your bike all the ways it can be handled, or you will run out of options one day.  Try a strong counter steer on a gravel road, good luck with that!

[R1150RTMark]

I do it all the time.  Learn how your bike steers.  I never said "ignore" counter steering, I said that it is not the only way, and not always the best way, to steer the bike.  You should learn to handle your bike all the ways it can be handled, or you will run out of options one day.  Try a strong counter steer on a gravel road, good luck with that!

I believe weight shift is strictly an enhancement to countersteering.  It helps shift the CoG of the bike in a way that minimal effort/pressure is required on the handgrips - which probably tricks your mind into THINKING you are putting no handlebar input to the steering, but you really are.  The bike almost seems to steer itself.  But if you removed your hands mid=corner, the bike would want to stand up and go straight.  It's the way rake and trail are designed into the front steering assembly.  Plus, rider weight shift allows the CoG to be manipulated in such a way as to reduce lean angle - allowing for more speed through a turn before dragging parts.  But the foundation is still countersteering.  And it actually works too on gravel roads - I ride them.  The trick is to be smooth and have a light touch.

I think the point you're making is valid - in that an exceedingly light touch is all that's required to track a good line through a corner - if the weight shift is done right.  Hell, I try to remember to steer one-handed (inside hand) as much as possible to try to keep my outside armfrom tensing up.  In that, we agree.  But to come on here in a BEGINNERS section and try to imply that countersteering isn't necessary?  I don't think that's a road any of us should point a beginner down.  It's the very foundation of turning techniques.  The rest are all enhancements.  JMHO

[bikerfish1100]

I do it all the time.  Learn how your bike steers.  I never said "ignore" counter steering, I said that it is not the only way, and not always the best way, to steer the bike.  You should learn to handle your bike all the ways it can be handled, or you will run out of options one day.  Try a strong counter steer on a gravel road, good luck with that!

by any chance, were you previously posting on this board as "Modre"? (actually, that will be an inside joke to those of us who have BTDT with this line of reasoning).
here's a suggestion- read what Keith Code has to say on the subject, and see how that relates to the various ideas presented here on the subject....
http://superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php
good for both noobs and experienced riders alike.

[cbsnbiker]

I watched a YouTube (or other) video the other day of a professional stunt bike rider. I might have gotten the link on STN--I don't remember offhand. It was a fairly long video as online vids go: at least five minutes, maybe substantially longer.

The guy did amazing things with various bikes: wheelies, stoppies, all sorts of really impressive tricks. I was blown away by his control and mastery over almost every facet of motorcycle operation.

Another demonstration he gave--on a Monster, if I'm not mistaken--was to take his hands off of the bars, and do full-lock circles in both directions (one at a time, of course  ).

But even with all of this impressive prowess, one thing he didn't do was to ride the bike any significant distance with both hands off of the bars and in a curve, other than the full-lock circles. He didn't, for example, do any not-quite-full-lock circles or transitioning into them.

I can't imagine that it was an oversight on his part.

Just FWIW.

[Mr Sunshine]

But if you removed your hands mid=corner, the bike would want to stand up and go straight.  It's the way rake and trail are designed into the front steering assembly.  

If you are banked into a corner and your throttle is locked to maintain the same throttle position you can take your hands off the handle bar and so long as your body doesn't move the bike will continue on the exact same arc if your bike is properly setup.  This is one thing you are looking to do when you setup a bike's suspension and geometry...to make it completely neutral.

[andmoon]

You usually go where you look (pretty ladies' behinds break this rule)
Handlebars are not there to rest your weight on...your stomach/back holds you up...you should be able to maintain torso angle if the handlebars disapeared.
Your bike usually has more traction and lean angle than your panic induced/target fixated mind calculates...and you will crash anyway if you keep the course so lean her a wee bit more and more times than not you will survive the turn.

[MidLifeMike]

so lean her a wee bit more and more times than not you will survive the turn.

Respectfully, I got a cold twist in my gut reading that. It brought back two incidences where I thought I was doing everything right but was frustrated to realise I was about to be splattered along the side of an oncoming van in one case, and off into the trees on another. I set myself into a sweeper at legal speeds, nothing tricky. A string of vehicles appeared from around the corner and I caught myself "fixating" and continuing out of the turn and out toward the vehicles.

So I tell myself I have to lean more and look away from the van - I do both and nothing changes. Nothing. Maintain my speed, putting more upper body over the inside of the turn and I am almost on top of the white line when we pass and I am clear of traffic. Then I got back on line. I know I scared a few drivers that day.

I thought I was doing what I was taught. I just felt stupid that I hadn't really understood why we countersteer and why we lean. Everyone should read that article with the 2 bar bike and believe. Personally I am aware I have a weak left turn because I am right side dominant and don't have as much fine control on the pressure I exert with my left arm - too much, too little. I work on improving that fine control and it improves much better when I take all pressure off my right hand and use just the left to adjust the turn. Knees squeezed against the tank leave the arms and feet free to do what has to be done. With a long enough sweeper this is easier to experience safely.

[andmoon]

Respectfully, I got a cold twist in my gut reading that. It brought back two incidences where I thought I was doing everything right but was frustrated to realise I was about to be splattered along the side of an oncoming van in one case, and off into the trees on another. I set myself into a sweeper at legal speeds, nothing tricky. A string of vehicles appeared from around the corner and I caught myself "fixating" and continuing out of the turn and out toward the vehicles.

So I tell myself I have to lean more and look away from the van - I do both and nothing changes. Nothing. Maintain my speed, putting more upper body over the inside of the turn and I am almost on top of the white line when we pass and I am clear of traffic. Then I got back on line. I know I scared a few drivers that day.

I thought I was doing what I was taught. I just felt stupid that I hadn't really understood why we countersteer and why we lean. Everyone should read that article with the 2 bar bike and believe. Personally I am aware I have a weak left turn because I am right side dominant and don't have as much fine control on the pressure I exert with my left arm - too much, too little. I work on improving that fine control and it improves much better when I take all pressure off my right hand and use just the left to adjust the turn. Knees squeezed against the tank leave the arms and feet free to do what has to be done. With a long enough sweeper this is easier to experience safely.

You can push/pull for finer control of the bar.
Try pushing left leg harder into tank for right turns or reverse for left...pushing on the tank gives me more subtle inputs than push/pulling on the bars....NOT GOOD FOR SWERVING just for a 'wee bit more' moments.