Target Fixation

[Xiaoding]

Dude, stick with the scooter, perhaps bikes are a little too much for you.    It's a skill not everyone has.

Target fixation:  move something.  Anything.  Jump up in your seat, let out the clutch,  scream, hit your helmet with your hand, just get your eyes off the spot of death.    Also, don't go down with the ship, jump off the bike if you can...beats getting slammed down with the bike.

Counter steering is nice, but it's not the only way to steer.  The SV can be yanked any way you want to go, no handlebar input needed.  It's an option you need to be aware of, if you are on the kind of bike that allows it.  Also, steering with the rear, as it's called, eliminates the possibility of a tank slapper, which I got one day, due to excessive counter steering input.  By me.  

Good luck!

[Desmo Demon]

I've been on the road for over 13 years and logged over 100k miles, and I still run into situations where I may target fixate, but......I overcome it before I end up crashing. Most of the time, though, it happens when I'm on a stretch of road that I know and I become complacent. I kick into automatic/cruise-control and just ride, often times daydreaming abotu somethign other than riding (I really need to quit doing this), then.....it happens....there's a stick, rock, dead animal, road debris, or anything that is out of the normal for that road....It catches me offguard....I catch myself staring (and steering) right toward it....then, it dawns on me what I'm doing....I look away, find a section of the road to look at, and safely avoid the situation. Sometimes, if I am trying to figure out what the item is/was or want to mentally process it some more, I pick a section of road near it to look at and let my peripherial view help me continue processing the item......the best way to avoid target fixation is to overcome it....to overcome it, you have to experience it....over, and over, and over, again.

[Cpl Punishment]

I've been on the road for over 13 years and logged over 100k miles, and I still run into situations where I may target fixate, but......I overcome it before I end up crashing. Most of the time, though, it happens when I'm on a stretch of road that I know and I become complacent. I kick into automatic/cruise-control and just ride, often times daydreaming abotu somethign other than riding (I really need to quit doing this), then.....it happens....there's a stick, rock, dead animal, road debris, or anything that is out of the normal for that road....It catches me offguard....I catch myself staring (and steering) right toward it....then, it dawns on me what I'm doing....I look away, find a section of the road to look at, and safely avoid the situation. Sometimes, if I am trying to figure out what the item is/was or want to mentally process it some more, I pick a section of road near it to look at and let my peripherial view help me continue processing the item......the best way to avoid target fixation is to overcome it....to overcome it, you have to experience it....over, and over, and over, again.

Thjat is the best advice on this thread so far. Don't let a crash dim your enthusiam (clearly hasn't). You'll make afine biker, Kvint, because you reflect and are honest about your mistakes. Good on you and may the sun shine on you and yours.

[R1150RTMark]

Counter steering is nice, but it's not the only way to steer.  The SV can be yanked any way you want to go, no handlebar input needed.  It's an option you need to be aware of, if you are on the kind of bike that allows it.  Also, steering with the rear, as it's called, eliminates the possibility of a tank slapper, which I got one day, due to excessive counter steering input.  By me.  

Good luck!

I'm gonna resist the urge to say exactly what I'm thinking.  But tell you what - next time you're out and about, try this little experiment.  Take your hands TOTALLY off the handlebars when you approach a turn - any turn - and leave them off.  Adjust your entry speed with an easy application of the rear brake.  Then - using only the shifting of your body weight - execute the turn.

Get back to us on the results and let us know if you are still as enthusiastic to ignoring countersteering and utilize just 'yanking' the bike where you want it to go.  K?

[bikerfish1100]

what Mark on the RT said  

[Xiaoding]

I'm gonna resist the urge to say exactly what I'm thinking.  But tell you what - next time you're out and about, try this little experiment.  Take your hands TOTALLY off the handlebars when you approach a turn - any turn - and leave them off.  Adjust your entry speed with an easy application of the rear brake.  Then - using only the shifting of your body weight - execute the turn.

Get back to us on the results and let us know if you are still as enthusiastic to ignoring countersteering and utilize just 'yanking' the bike where you want it to go.  K?

I do it all the time.  Learn how your bike steers.  I never said "ignore" counter steering, I said that it is not the only way, and not always the best way, to steer the bike.  You should learn to handle your bike all the ways it can be handled, or you will run out of options one day.  Try a strong counter steer on a gravel road, good luck with that!

[R1150RTMark]

I do it all the time.  Learn how your bike steers.  I never said "ignore" counter steering, I said that it is not the only way, and not always the best way, to steer the bike.  You should learn to handle your bike all the ways it can be handled, or you will run out of options one day.  Try a strong counter steer on a gravel road, good luck with that!

I believe weight shift is strictly an enhancement to countersteering.  It helps shift the CoG of the bike in a way that minimal effort/pressure is required on the handgrips - which probably tricks your mind into THINKING you are putting no handlebar input to the steering, but you really are.  The bike almost seems to steer itself.  But if you removed your hands mid=corner, the bike would want to stand up and go straight.  It's the way rake and trail are designed into the front steering assembly.  Plus, rider weight shift allows the CoG to be manipulated in such a way as to reduce lean angle - allowing for more speed through a turn before dragging parts.  But the foundation is still countersteering.  And it actually works too on gravel roads - I ride them.  The trick is to be smooth and have a light touch.

I think the point you're making is valid - in that an exceedingly light touch is all that's required to track a good line through a corner - if the weight shift is done right.  Hell, I try to remember to steer one-handed (inside hand) as much as possible to try to keep my outside armfrom tensing up.  In that, we agree.  But to come on here in a BEGINNERS section and try to imply that countersteering isn't necessary?  I don't think that's a road any of us should point a beginner down.  It's the very foundation of turning techniques.  The rest are all enhancements.  JMHO

[bikerfish1100]

I do it all the time.  Learn how your bike steers.  I never said "ignore" counter steering, I said that it is not the only way, and not always the best way, to steer the bike.  You should learn to handle your bike all the ways it can be handled, or you will run out of options one day.  Try a strong counter steer on a gravel road, good luck with that!

by any chance, were you previously posting on this board as "Modre"? (actually, that will be an inside joke to those of us who have BTDT with this line of reasoning).
here's a suggestion- read what Keith Code has to say on the subject, and see how that relates to the various ideas presented here on the subject....
http://superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php
good for both noobs and experienced riders alike.

[cbsnbiker]

I watched a YouTube (or other) video the other day of a professional stunt bike rider. I might have gotten the link on STN--I don't remember offhand. It was a fairly long video as online vids go: at least five minutes, maybe substantially longer.

The guy did amazing things with various bikes: wheelies, stoppies, all sorts of really impressive tricks. I was blown away by his control and mastery over almost every facet of motorcycle operation.

Another demonstration he gave--on a Monster, if I'm not mistaken--was to take his hands off of the bars, and do full-lock circles in both directions (one at a time, of course  ).

But even with all of this impressive prowess, one thing he didn't do was to ride the bike any significant distance with both hands off of the bars and in a curve, other than the full-lock circles. He didn't, for example, do any not-quite-full-lock circles or transitioning into them.

I can't imagine that it was an oversight on his part.

Just FWIW.

[Mr Sunshine]

But if you removed your hands mid=corner, the bike would want to stand up and go straight.  It's the way rake and trail are designed into the front steering assembly.  

If you are banked into a corner and your throttle is locked to maintain the same throttle position you can take your hands off the handle bar and so long as your body doesn't move the bike will continue on the exact same arc if your bike is properly setup.  This is one thing you are looking to do when you setup a bike's suspension and geometry...to make it completely neutral.

[andmoon]

You usually go where you look (pretty ladies' behinds break this rule)
Handlebars are not there to rest your weight on...your stomach/back holds you up...you should be able to maintain torso angle if the handlebars disapeared.
Your bike usually has more traction and lean angle than your panic induced/target fixated mind calculates...and you will crash anyway if you keep the course so lean her a wee bit more and more times than not you will survive the turn.

[MidLifeMike]

so lean her a wee bit more and more times than not you will survive the turn.

Respectfully, I got a cold twist in my gut reading that. It brought back two incidences where I thought I was doing everything right but was frustrated to realise I was about to be splattered along the side of an oncoming van in one case, and off into the trees on another. I set myself into a sweeper at legal speeds, nothing tricky. A string of vehicles appeared from around the corner and I caught myself "fixating" and continuing out of the turn and out toward the vehicles.

So I tell myself I have to lean more and look away from the van - I do both and nothing changes. Nothing. Maintain my speed, putting more upper body over the inside of the turn and I am almost on top of the white line when we pass and I am clear of traffic. Then I got back on line. I know I scared a few drivers that day.

I thought I was doing what I was taught. I just felt stupid that I hadn't really understood why we countersteer and why we lean. Everyone should read that article with the 2 bar bike and believe. Personally I am aware I have a weak left turn because I am right side dominant and don't have as much fine control on the pressure I exert with my left arm - too much, too little. I work on improving that fine control and it improves much better when I take all pressure off my right hand and use just the left to adjust the turn. Knees squeezed against the tank leave the arms and feet free to do what has to be done. With a long enough sweeper this is easier to experience safely.

[andmoon]

Respectfully, I got a cold twist in my gut reading that. It brought back two incidences where I thought I was doing everything right but was frustrated to realise I was about to be splattered along the side of an oncoming van in one case, and off into the trees on another. I set myself into a sweeper at legal speeds, nothing tricky. A string of vehicles appeared from around the corner and I caught myself "fixating" and continuing out of the turn and out toward the vehicles.

So I tell myself I have to lean more and look away from the van - I do both and nothing changes. Nothing. Maintain my speed, putting more upper body over the inside of the turn and I am almost on top of the white line when we pass and I am clear of traffic. Then I got back on line. I know I scared a few drivers that day.

I thought I was doing what I was taught. I just felt stupid that I hadn't really understood why we countersteer and why we lean. Everyone should read that article with the 2 bar bike and believe. Personally I am aware I have a weak left turn because I am right side dominant and don't have as much fine control on the pressure I exert with my left arm - too much, too little. I work on improving that fine control and it improves much better when I take all pressure off my right hand and use just the left to adjust the turn. Knees squeezed against the tank leave the arms and feet free to do what has to be done. With a long enough sweeper this is easier to experience safely.

You can push/pull for finer control of the bar.
Try pushing left leg harder into tank for right turns or reverse for left...pushing on the tank gives me more subtle inputs than push/pulling on the bars....NOT GOOD FOR SWERVING just for a 'wee bit more' moments.