MG Norge 1200 vs BMW R1200RT

[ABStrommer]

After a lot of reading and some demo rides on various bikes, I have narrowed my upgrade choices (from a 2004 V-Strom) to the MG Norge and the BMW R1200RT.  The bike will be used for my daily 320 km commute (mostly slab) and for a few sport touring trips into the mountains each year.

I need weather protection, all-day comfort, durability, plenty of electrical capacity for heated clothing, radar detector, GPS, etc.

The Norge and RT spec out very similarly, with an edge in power (110 hp vs 95) and torque (115 Nm vs 100) to the Bimmer, which is also 17 kg lighter (dry wt).  The BMW has a 3-year warranty vs 2 for the MG.

Both have ABS and heated grips standard and the list price is within a few dollars of $19000 (Canadian).

The Guzzi is better looking and (I haven't heard one) likely better sounding.  It also has a greater exclusivity factor.

Each has a dealer within my area.

Has anyone an opinion on how the two match up in regards to comfort/protection, ride quality, vibration, handling (both curves and crosswinds), durability, maintenance issues, etc?

I likely won't get a chance to ride either before choosing.

Thanks

[Orson]

I need weather protection, all-day comfort, durability, plenty of electrical capacity for heated clothing, radar detector, GPS, etc.

I rented an 1150RT and can vouch that it had excellent weather protection, comfort and excellent luggage. On top of that, it handled extremely well in the twisties.

What I didn't care for was the sewing machine sound.

I haven't ridden a Norge, but if it even approaches the Beemer's capability, I might have to lean towards the Guzzi simply for that intangible visceral aspect that the Guzzi v twin motor provides.

call me shallow but an engine's sound does a lot for me   The beemer's powerplant, while capable...just left me a bit uninspired.

[cmgies]

I have ridden both and chose the Norge about 6,000 miles ago.  I have always had BMW motorcycles.  Something "spoke" to me when I rode the Norge.  I enjoy the conversation every day and getting ready to do an 8 week cross country trip in less than two weeks.  The vibration is there but diminishing as the miles go on the bike.  The protection is quite good, better than it looks like it should be.  I have a GPS and a heated jacket that I run regularly on the bike with no problems.  If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Michael Gies
'07 Norge red

[thekiwiguy]

BMW's are amazingly well engineered machines - no doubt about that, but (call me old school), there is something about riding Italian bikes that gets the hairs on my back to stand up on edge. The word that come to mind is SOUL. When i rode the BMW's i got no soulful feelings whatsoever. Thats why i just ordered a Norge, and is why i have Duc Multistrada and Monster in the stable to go alongside it. I luv the feeling i get from riding them. BMW's feel to "safe" and "SUV like" for me...my 2 cents  

[chilipeppernorm]

I don't know why but I thought I read somewhere that the Norge was in the high 70's for HP. I love Guzzi's, my son just bought one. The only thing that concerns me about the Norge is the lower hp, and I believe you have to remove part of the fairing to get to the dipstick to check the oil. Seems the Italians are capable of building some of the sweetest, sexiest bikes ever but have a tradition of doing one thing on each model that makes you scratch your head and go WTF? Having owned a boxer twin I can tell you it does have soul, it just won't start showing it to you until you hit around 30K miles. This is a hell of a choice, both great bikes. You did mention you probably won't ride either bike before buying. This to me is a huge mistake. You can't possibly know which bike speaks to you without riding. Don't know about Guzzi, but BMW is known for their test ride generosity. Ride em both and tell us your decision.

[ZED]

I've sat on both.  I've looked at the specs.  If I were to choose with just that I'd choose the Norge.  It just felt better.  However, I haven't ridden either.  Both were a consideration before buying my Ducati ST3s.  The two primary reasons that they were elliminated early were:
1.  I don't like the local dealer for either.
2.  I refuse to spend that kind of money on anything I can't try out first.  I got to ride the Ducati, the FJR, and the C14.  My final choice came down between them.  Just my opinion, but I think people need to stop letting dealers get away with getting sales without demo rides.

Good luck.  Let us know what you choose.  Then we'll head over to the appropriate forum and hear all about it.  

[Geoff]

BMW's are amazingly well engineered machines - no doubt about that, but (call me old school), there is something about riding Italian bikes that gets the hairs on my back to stand up on edge. The word that come to mind is SOUL. When i rode the BMW's i got no soulful feelings whatsoever. Thats why i just ordered a Norge, and is why i have Duc Multistrada and Monster in the stable to go alongside it. I luv the feeling i get from riding them. BMW's feel to "safe" and "SUV like" for me...my 2 cents  

Good post. BMW's had soul until the oil head boxers were introduced. Then the styling went south, they surged at low RPM, and some suffered rear drive failures. BMW's are still great bikes; they're just not the same.

[Oilhed]

Good post. BMW's had soul until the oil head boxers were introduced. Then the styling went south, they surged at low RPM, and some suffered rear drive failures. BMW's are still great bikes; they're just not the same.

Have you ridden a R1200ST, R1200R or R1200GS?  The soul has returned.

[st ryder]

For those who've never owned anything but Japanese motorcycles, the whole issue of a bike having "soul" is almost incomprehensible, and it's easy to understand how they confuse soul as a euphemism for mechanical unreliability and retort, "My bike doesn't have soul because it's reliable." But for many of them, a point is reached where they want that elusive "something more", as features like reliability and bang for buck leave them flat, and then it gets interesting how thoughts about a machine having soul change: they start perceiving bikes with reputations for being "mechanically unreliable" in a different light, and certainly, the general public's perception is that BMWs are *very* mechanically reliable, though perception and reality are two different things as more experienced riders/owners will attest. So, does a supposedly mechanically superior BMW have soul? I think not. Not because in theory it's more mechanically reliable than bikes that have soul/mechanical unreliability, plainly it's not, but rather because of the lack of passion/romance associated with the culture who designed it, and brought it to "life." In this regard, Japanese and German bikes are similar, as they come from people who hold "order" in high value. Therefore, how can these cultures imbue a machine with soul, when souls are amorphous and free?

No, BMWs have no "soul" BUT, they do have "character" in spades, as they are engineered like no other bike, and look like no other bike, and some sound like no other bike. They have distinction and pedigree that outdates most other brands. They have a dedicated, cult-like following. They have a commitment to having a supply of parts like no other brand, and thus BMW shows its mettle. But riding one is not about the thrill of melding with a artfully sculpted machine that feels like an extension of yourself, and connects you to the road and the experience through sound and feedback. Riding one is more like skillfully performing a task with a good tool. The job will get done, effectively, but dispassionately. No, BMWs don't have soul, but they have good character, and that makes them different from bikes that have neither, but are mechanically reliable, in theory.      

[Flightar]

ST Ryder: While I agree with your post for the most part. I would add that soul is a highly personal thing and therefore wouldn't be the same from rider to rider. I agree that BMW's have character but many other bikes have that as well...such as VFR's. Then there are the ones that are very highly sanitized and don't such as Goldwings. That character is why people that own VFR's and ride them, tend to love them.

Then there is the culture thing and I would add that even romanticised bikes like Ducati's don't always have soul. I'd argue that the soul element departed from them sometime around the 851 and 900 SS of the same vintage. While the ensuing 916 in all of it's iterations and the current 1098 are beautiful bikes and have loads of character they have lost the soul due to them being more clinical and sanitized. This is in part due to the needs of racing where things need to be ordered and reliable to last for a season much less to last years on the street.

[ZED]

At the risk of getting into an argument which seems somewhat off-topic to the thread, I will chime in here.

st ryder:  The above post was very well stated.  With your permission I will keep it on file as it describes the BMW so very well.  In fact it describes the German manufacturing mentality very well.  Your description of soul vs. character is also very good.

Then there is the culture thing and I would add that even romanticised bikes like Ducati's don't always have soul. I'd argue that the soul element departed from them sometime around the 851 and 900 SS of the same vintage. While the ensuing 916 in all of it's iterations and the current 1098 are beautiful bikes and have loads of character they have lost the soul due to them being more clinical and sanitized. This is in part due to the needs of racing where things need to be ordered and reliable to last for a season much less to last years on the street.

Clinical and sanitized?!?  Have you ridden one lately?  Actually what I mean is have you spent actual quality time on one lately?  I have had a world of warranty issues with my now 14 month old ST3s and despite the issues, the bike speaks to me so very very much; when I mount it, press the start button and wait to hear what sounds it's going to make during this startup sequence; when I lean into a corner fully loaded at the end of a long day of touring and it greets me like an anxious puppy; when I want it to get me out of some nasty traffice NOW!  It could have almost any problem, but when it returns like a child that has committed a sin, run away, and returned, I feel compelled to forgive it and accept it back.  Is that not soul?!? 

Maybe your definition is different and does not include such things.  To me that is a bike with soul, while my Z1000 and KLR merely have character.  I agree there is a difference.

[Orson]

For those who've never owned anything but Japanese motorcycles, the whole issue of a bike having "soul" is almost incomprehensible, and it's easy to understand how they confuse soul as a euphemism for mechanical unreliability and retort, "My bike doesn't have soul because it's reliable." But for many of them, a point is reached where they want that elusive "something more", as features like reliability and bang for buck leave them flat, and then it gets interesting how thoughts about a machine having soul change: they start perceiving bikes with reputations for being "mechanically unreliable" in a different light, and certainly, the general public's perception is that BMWs are *very* mechanically reliable, though perception and reality are two different things as more experienced riders/owners will attest. So, does a supposedly mechanically superior BMW have soul? I think not. Not because in theory it's more mechanically reliable than bikes that have soul/mechanical unreliability, plainly it's not, but rather because of the lack of passion/romance associated with the culture who designed it, and brought it to "life." In this regard, Japanese and German bikes are similar, as they come from people who hold "order" in high value. Therefore, how can these cultures imbue a machine with soul, when souls are amorphous and free?

No, BMWs have no "soul" BUT, they do have "character" in spades, as they are engineered like no other bike, and look like no other bike, and some sound like no other bike. They have distinction and pedigree that outdates most other brands. They have a dedicated, cult-like following. They have a commitment to having a supply of parts like no other brand, and thus BMW shows its mettle. But riding one is not about the thrill of melding with a artfully sculpted machine that feels like an extension of yourself, and connects you to the road and the experience through sound and feedback. Riding one is more like skillfully performing a task with a good tool. The job will get done, effectively, but dispassionately. No, BMWs don't have soul, but they have good character, and that makes them different from bikes that have neither, but are mechanically reliable, in theory.      

well written  

[sagerat]

Nice piece of writing about character and soul.  The lines of the Norge are marvelous, the lines of the RT are blech to me.  I'd take the Guzzi.

Plus having put 24,000 miles on a boxer and 6,000 on a Guzzi twin, I just prefer the Goose's mill.

[prshguy]

For those who've never owned anything but Japanese motorcycles, the whole issue of a bike having "soul" is almost incomprehensible, and it's easy to understand how they confuse soul as a euphemism for mechanical unreliability and retort, "My bike doesn't have soul because it's reliable." But for many of them, a point is reached where they want that elusive "something more", as features like reliability and bang for buck leave them flat, and then it gets interesting how thoughts about a machine having soul change: they start perceiving bikes with reputations for being "mechanically unreliable" in a different light, and certainly, the general public's perception is that BMWs are *very* mechanically reliable, though perception and reality are two different things as more experienced riders/owners will attest. So, does a supposedly mechanically superior BMW have soul? I think not. Not because in theory it's more mechanically reliable than bikes that have soul/mechanical unreliability, plainly it's not, but rather because of the lack of passion/romance associated with the culture who designed it, and brought it to "life." In this regard, Japanese and German bikes are similar, as they come from people who hold "order" in high value. Therefore, how can these cultures imbue a machine with soul, when souls are amorphous and free?

No, BMWs have no "soul" BUT, they do have "character" in spades, as they are engineered like no other bike, and look like no other bike, and some sound like no other bike. They have distinction and pedigree that outdates most other brands. They have a dedicated, cult-like following. They have a commitment to having a supply of parts like no other brand, and thus BMW shows its mettle. But riding one is not about the thrill of melding with a artfully sculpted machine that feels like an extension of yourself, and connects you to the road and the experience through sound and feedback. Riding one is more like skillfully performing a task with a good tool. The job will get done, effectively, but dispassionately. No, BMWs don't have soul, but they have good character, and that makes them different from bikes that have neither, but are mechanically reliable, in theory.      

I think you've described what can be a tough concept.  Well done.  A good read.

[EricJ]

For those who've never owned anything but Japanese motorcycles, the whole issue of a bike having "soul" is almost incomprehensible, and it's easy to understand how they confuse soul as a euphemism for mechanical unreliability and retort, "My bike doesn't have soul because it's reliable." But for many of them, a point is reached where they want that elusive "something more", as features like reliability and bang for buck leave them flat, and then it gets interesting how thoughts about a machine having soul change: they start perceiving bikes with reputations for being "mechanically unreliable" in a different light, and certainly, the general public's perception is that BMWs are *very* mechanically reliable, though perception and reality are two different things as more experienced riders/owners will attest. So, does a supposedly mechanically superior BMW have soul? I think not. Not because in theory it's more mechanically reliable than bikes that have soul/mechanical unreliability, plainly it's not, but rather because of the lack of passion/romance associated with the culture who designed it, and brought it to "life." In this regard, Japanese and German bikes are similar, as they come from people who hold "order" in high value. Therefore, how can these cultures imbue a machine with soul, when souls are amorphous and free?

No, BMWs have no "soul" BUT, they do have "character" in spades, as they are engineered like no other bike, and look like no other bike, and some sound like no other bike. They have distinction and pedigree that outdates most other brands. They have a dedicated, cult-like following. They have a commitment to having a supply of parts like no other brand, and thus BMW shows its mettle. But riding one is not about the thrill of melding with a artfully sculpted machine that feels like an extension of yourself, and connects you to the road and the experience through sound and feedback. Riding one is more like skillfully performing a task with a good tool. The job will get done, effectively, but dispassionately. No, BMWs don't have soul, but they have good character, and that makes them different from bikes that have neither, but are mechanically reliable, in theory.      

Very well written! You make it very easy to wrap your arms around the issue.  

[Geoff]

ABstrommer, check out Rider's comparo of the Norge and R1200RT:  http://www.ridermagazine.com/output.cfm?id=1693585

[Flightar]

Zed, I'd say that forgiving a bike it's flaws and accepting it back eagerly is more on the character side of things...Soul is (to me anyway) and as st ryder alluded a much more innate, spiritual and personal thing. My VFR speaks to me in ways that many other bikes can't...but does it have soul, I don't think so. The BMW R1100S I rode for a while was a much more soulful biking experience despite being inferior in most ways to the VFR. Go figure.

[ZED]

Zed, I'd say that forgiving a bike it's flaws and accepting it back eagerly is more on the character side of things...Soul is (to me anyway) and as st ryder alluded a much more innate, spiritual and personal thing. My VFR speaks to me in ways that many other bikes can't...but does it have soul, I don't think so. The BMW R1100S I rode for a while was a much more soulful biking experience despite being inferior in most ways to the VFR. Go figure.

eh.  Your opinion.  My opinion.  To each his own.