R1200RT vs Moto Guzzi Norge 1200

[ABStrommer]

fter a lot of reading and some demo rides on various bikes, I have narrowed my upgrade choices (from a 2004 V-Strom) to the MG Norge and the BMW R1200RT.  The bike will be used for my daily 320 km commute (mostly slab) and for a few sport touring trips into the mountains each year.

I need weather protection, all-day comfort, durability, plenty of electrical capacity for heated clothing, radar detector, GPS, etc.

The Norge and RT spec out very similarly, with an edge in power (110 hp vs 95) and torque (115 Nm vs 100) to the Bimmer, which is also 17 kg lighter (dry wt).  The BMW has a 3-year warranty vs 2 for the MG.

Both have ABS and heated grips standard and the list price is within a few dollars of $19000 (Canadian).

The Guzzi is better looking and (I haven't heard one) likely better sounding.  It also has a greater exclusivity factor.

Each has a dealer within my area.

Has anyone an opinion on how the two match up in regards to comfort/protection, ride quality, vibration, handling (both curves and crosswinds), durability, maintenance issues, etc?

I likely won't get a chance to ride either before choosing.

Thanks

[TheGoose]

It's unfortunate you will not be able to test ride both bikes because to me that's the most important comparison of all. Specs are great for a general idea of one bike vs another, but until you actually ride them both there is no way to really know which one is better for you.

The BMW is arguably a better bike overall, but that's not something that's not necessarily a deciding factor in a bike purchase.

[Geoff]

Motorcyclist magazine recently compared the RT and Norge. The Norge got dinged because it has less power; the centerstand scrapes the ground and reduces cornering clearance; it offers less wind protection; and wiring for the heated grips hangs loosely on the bars.  Despite these nits, if I was in the market, I'd go for the Norge. I prefer the simplicity of the Norge's mill, styling and paint choices over the RT. On the other hand, if most of my riding was two-up, I'd go with the more powerful RT.

[Oilhed]

The Norge is the equal of the old R1100RT.  The new R1200RT is way ahead, except in styling.  If you don't mind a little slower, a little less clearance and more conventional design the Norge might be for you.  Or you can buy a used RT for under $10k.  Guzzis fit smaller riders, BMW fit taller riders, too.

[jstark47]

Norge is gorgeously stylish, IMO.  There's a new Guzzi dealership in my area, they had one on the floor this spring.  I walked around it for 15 minutes, just feasting on the visual harmony.  This doesn't come through in photos, ya gotta see it in person.  (It's gotta be a red one, too!   )

Oilhed makes a good point.  Since my wife (temporarily?) took leave of her senses last weekend and fell in lust with a '07 R/RT , I'd like her to at least sit on a Norge for comparison.  It might fit her better.  

[st ryder]

...The Norge and RT spec out very similarly, with an edge in power (110 hp vs 95) and torque (115 Nm vs 100) to the Bimmer,...

If you are thinking of entering the world of BMW, then you may be interested in the minor but crucial difference in how to refer to their bikes and cars: BMW's first motorised road vehicle, a motorcycle, is referred to as a Beemer. BMW cars, which came many years later, are referred to as Bimmers. You may also want to do some research on "slash" models, as true Beemerphiles if asked what year their nice older bike is, will only tell you they have a "slash X" and leave it up to you to figure out the year/model etc. They are snobs you know.  

If BMWs do anything well, it's eating up long highway miles with aplomb. If that long, daily commute of your is highway riding, get the Beemer.

[motoguy128]

I've only sat on a Norge, but it felt smaller and shorter.  I however, wouldn't give up my weather protection passenger space and cruise control for anything.  The Norge I'm sure feels sportier and I'm sure it sounds better.  But for long rides on the slab between the twisties... especially with lots of luggage or a passenger...or both, you can't do much better.  Performance wise, I don;t think you'll notice much difference.  The Norge makes up it's weight difference with shorter gearing and a little fatter torque curve at the bottom-end.  It's lower compression and longer stroke than the RT.

For me the biggest factor would be wind managment.  I won't tolerate turbulence off the windscreen.

Test ride both and pick the one that you like best.

[DangerMoney]

I did two trips in western Canada on an R1200RT. One trip was 1 week and a little over 1000 miles. The second, two weeks and over 2000 miles. Over the two trips, we experienced everything from 95 degs F and sun to upper 30's with snow (that didn't stick to the road).  I thought I would hate the RT since it's a "touring bike". After three days on the first trip I had grown to really like it. If you snap the throttle open in 1st gear the front gets very light. Plenty of torque as you go through 5K RPM amd plenty of protection from the elements. Mine was equipped the factory cruise control (why was great for those long hauls) and ABS.  The handling was another pleasant surprise. You only had to think about turning and the bike would oblige. It ain't the prettiest girl in school but it works very effectively.

I had been looking for a dual-sport. After the great experience with the engine/drivetrain on the first trip I bought an R1200GS.

[Hardware]

...Has anyone an opinion on how the two match up in regards to comfort/protection, ride quality, vibration, handling (both curves and crosswinds), durability, maintenance issues, etc?...

I own an RT and bought it after going on a BMW ride day.  I rode the RT and the K1200LT in heavy rains and crosswinds on the test rides and was impressed with how stable both bikes were in shitty conditions.

I've never ridden any Moto Guzzi and I've only looked at a Norge briefly in a dealership.  IIRC the Norge looked smaller (maybe lower seat height) than the RT.  The RT is a big bike and it tends to be top-heavy.

I like the protection provided by the RT fairing - I've been in some pretty heavy rain and it works great.  The RT is the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden (well maybe except for the LT).

I don't know how you define "ride quality" so I'll leave that alone.

Vibration - the boxer mill does vibrate, especially on start-up.  But once moving, it gets real smooth.

Handling - the RT is no surgical corner carving hyper-bike, but it does handle better than you would expect a 500 lb sport-touring bike to.  It's never left me regretting the move from a Hayabusa to it, put it that way.

Durability - so far so good.

Maintenance - I had the dealership do the first oil change/maintenance check.  Subsequent oil changes, I've done myself.  Oil changes and valve adjustments can be done without having to remove any plastics.  So far, it's been way easier to work on than my Hayabusa.

Obviously, I like BMWs (there are two in my garage) so I don't want to be that guy that says buy the same bike I did.  If there was an MG dealer nearby I would have looked at a Norge for sure.  Check on the BMW test ride schedule (I missed the ride date this year) maybe they haven't come to your area yet and you can schedule a ride?

Short of that, see which one feels better when you sit on them in the dealership...

[ABStrommer]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.  When the BMW demo's were on, I rode a K1200GT (the RT was all booked up).  It was fabulous (the most powerful bike I had ever ridden), but the riding position didn't work for my inflexible 53 year old frame.  I also noticed that I was going 195 km/h in very short order.  Could be tough on the license.

I think I am sold on the RT.  The wind/rain protection, cruise control and other features tip the balance.

[Zen Rider]

Wish I could share some input on the Norge, as I love the craftsmanship of a Guzzi.  But, alas, I've not ridden one.  

If you liked the K12GT test ride, you'll absolutely love the RT (much more "usable" HP (torque) than the GT and turns in faster than a K12S, IMHO))).  

I've found Beemer's to be an acquired taste.  I used to think they were ugly bikes, till I rode them for a while.  Over time, they became beautiful to me - mostly because they are designed with the rider in mind.  

Good luck finding the right bike.  
 

[Geoff]

The Norge holds a styling edge over the RT. While its a subjective call, the styling of BMW motorcycles has waned during design boss David Robb's tenure. Older models looked much better because the lines flowed. The current generation RT looks weird. Also, the tank bag mount should be optional. I wish BMW would follow suit with Triumph (Thruxton) and Ducati (Paul Smart) and offer a retro model like the R90S. This was the best looking BMW ever.

[Oilhed]

Ever?  Possibly but I think the R100RS & R1150RT are up there, too.

I think if the R1200RT was made to look like a R1150RT it would have been a home run.  H-D has changed engines a few times in the Road King, Electra Glide and Road Glide and they still sell.  When you have a winner stick with the styling.

[Geoff]

Ever?  Possibly but I think the R100RS & R1150RT are up there, too.

I think if the R1200RT was made to look like a R1150RT it would have been a home run.  H-D has changed engines a few times in the Road King, Electra Glide and Road Glide and they still sell.  When you have a winner stick with the styling.

I used to own a black R1100RT, which looked nice. The R1150RT looked even better. It was a nice blend of form and function.  

[sfarson]

Subjectively, have appreciated the appearance of BMW's, including the R1200RT, more than ever.  But this is me.

Just finished reading the review of the R1200RT versus the Norge in the July issue of Rider (Cover article).  The RT had the edge in just about every measure... power, protection, comfort, amenities, tank range, etc... and a center stand that didn't drag.  I'll be keeping an eye on the Norge, seeing what refinements could come its way.  I get a kick out of its engine and would like to see the bike succeed and be very competitive.

[blueridgerider]

The Norge holds a styling edge over the RT. While its a subjective call, the styling of BMW motorcycles has waned during design boss David Robb's tenure. Older models looked much better because the lines flowed. The current generation RT looks weird. Also, the tank bag mount should be optional. I wish BMW would follow suit with Triumph (Thruxton) and Ducati (Paul Smart) and offer a retro model like the R90S. This was the best looking BMW ever.

You know, I think it is kind of give and take.

I absolutely hate the changes made to the R1200RT and the K12GT - the 1150 (IMO) was much nicer.

But, I really like the 1150GS and the 1200GS

I think the F series of bikes look good as well.

[Geoff]

I like the GS, too, but I never understood the second front fender or beak.

[eurofan]

 I wish BMW would follow suit with Triumph (Thruxton) and Ducati (Paul Smart) and offer a retro model like the R90S. This was the best looking BMW ever.

Have to agree with you. BMW is losing a great oportunity not offering a R90S "modern classic"

Best looking BMW ever for me is the R1100S

[tigertom1965]

The August 08 magazine called Road Runner Motorcycle Touring & Travel I picked up at my grocery store had a comparison run of the R1200RT and the Norge. R1200RT won but both had issues. RT had easier luggage to use. Norge is locked every time you close it. Norge had a very reflective dash which makes it tough to view in sunlight. Norge had 6 gallons of gas and a range of 265 miles instead of the 311 miles of the RT. Norge centerstand drags easy. Norge not as good for taller riders. More passenger room on the RT the hard bags were in the way of the footpegs for your passenger. Bags on the Norge need two hands to open and close and have to lock every time. Norge doesn't have many optional accessories compared to the gizmos you can get on the RT.
They also sais the RT tops the Norge in overall useability, comfort, and performance.
They did say "the Norge costs less and offers more character and Pannache. Confused? Flip a coin."
http://www.roadrunner.travel

It was a trip trhought the Alps.

[Oilhed]

RT had easier luggage to use. Norge is locked every time you close it.

Bags on the Norge need two hands to open and close and have to lock every time.

The bags on my ST3 are the same way.  I never had a problem with that.  
It makes sure they would not fly open or fly off.  It's not like I need to get in them quickly, often.

[motoguy128]

The bags on my ST3 are the same way.  I never had a problem with that.  
It makes sure they would not fly open or fly off.  It's not like I need to get in them quickly, often.

Because of the clever way it's designed, even though the lid opening mechanism is unlocked... the machanism that attaches the bag to the bike is still locked.  You turn your key the opposite direction to release the handle.  The other way locks the lid.  You would need a failure of the latches for it to come open.  Locking the button would not prevent that.  So basically locking the bags only prevents the release mechanism from being pushed, it does not add any latches, unlike some other designs incuding the old BMW system cases.

[MisterSmooth]

...I wish BMW would follow suit with Triumph (Thruxton) and Ducati (Paul Smart) and offer a retro model like the R90S. This was the best looking BMW ever.

I dunno, I kinda like this one.







But, back on topic.  I don't know where you live, ABStrommer, but it may be worth your while to travel to Seattle.

You can test ride an R1200RT at Ride West BMW at 80th and Lake City Way, and then ten minutes later hit Moto International at 77th and Aurora and test drive a Norge.  Both dealers will be happy to send you out on one of their bikes.

You're making a $15,000 (plus/minus) investment here; if at all possible it's worth the trouble coming to Seattle to test ride.  Plus, it's fun.

[Lon]

The August 08 magazine called Road Runner Motorcycle Touring & Travel I picked up at my grocery store had a comparison run of the R1200RT and the Norge. R1200RT won but both had issues. RT had easier luggage to use. Norge is locked every time you close it. Norge had a very reflective dash which makes it tough to view in sunlight. Norge had 6 gallons of gas and a range of 265 miles instead of the 311 miles of the RT. Norge centerstand drags easy. Norge not as good for taller riders. More passenger room on the RT the hard bags were in the way of the footpegs for your passenger. Bags on the Norge need two hands to open and close and have to lock every time. Norge doesn't have many optional accessories compared to the gizmos you can get on the RT.
They also sais the RT tops the Norge in overall useability, comfort, and performance.
They did say "the Norge costs less and offers more character and Pannache. Confused? Flip a coin."
http://www.roadrunner.travel

It was a trip trhought the Alps.

Interesting; my wife and I rented a BMW R1200RT and took it up the PCH.  She never complained about legroom or that the bags were in the way... however, she's 5'8" tall, so maybe that has something to do with it.

I liked the RT's power and comfort except for the windshield.  I'm short (5'5") - meaning when I raise the windshield, I have to look through it.  The amount the RT's windshield distorted my vision was terrible; it made me feel like I had tunnel vision.

The engine was smooth compared to my R1100S.  I didn't test the ABS.  Braking was adequate.  Handling was fine, but I didn't find it very confidence-inspiring for some reason (compared to, say, the ST1300) ... This could be the fact that I'd only ridden once this year before taking off on an all-day excursion on a new-to-me-bike...

I think we did 200 or 250 miles; I can't remember.

[Lon]

I dunno, I kinda like this one.

Ah, the S.  In DDP.  I'm a fan.

[tigertom1965]

OOPS!   I wanted to say that it was the Norge that had problems with the legroom of the passenger and the bags got in the way. My bad.

[Stixx]

Having just bought the RT and still lusting for the lines on the Guzzi Norge and the sound of the sweet engine, I went with the idea I would have better reliability and less hassle for parts on the Beemer knowing full well I'll pay for the privaledge either way.

The Guzzi is Italian what do you expect. It is sexier. it has more persona but it is second fiddle to the Rt in almost every real measure. I'm not sorry I made the RT decision and since I can not have both I made the right decision for me. Your decision is for you to make. Either way you can't lose both are great bikes.

Styling comments aside the Beemer is a love hate in styling. Kinda reminds me of a Tazmanian devil with so much mass up top and such short legs (wheels) But like it or hate it the thing is at least unique and no one will mistake it for a rice burner , that's for sure.

I am growing more and more in like with my choice of mount and as time goes on I will have only one regret and that is that I don't know if I can afford to keep piling on the miles with the cost of maintenance on these beast escalating so much. The warrranty BTW had a bit to do with the decision and parts . Ask any Guzi guy about parts availability.

Best of luck in your decisioin whichever way you go post pics and let us all marvel at the beauty of either beast.

[n16elc]

I think this reply may be a little late but I have replied because it seems I am the only person to have owned both bikes. Before the Rt 1200 I owned 2 Rt 1150's over about 4 or 5 years. I was disapointed with the Rt1200. It was more powerful than the 1150 but had lost a lot of midrange. The biggest problem I had was it was not as comfortable as the 1150. I replaced the Rt1200 with a Norge. I would say the Norge is a far nicer bike to own. The guzzi engines have an almost addictive power delivery whereas the BMW coughs and splutters. (they always have and i think always will). On paper the BMW is more powerfull but I think on the road you would be hard pushed to find the difference. I would say top speed between both bikes would also be about the same. On the ragged edge the BMW may handle a little better but on real road you would be hard pushed to feel any real difference. Quality. Well the Moto Guzzi is now showing BMW how to make reliable bikes. Since 2008 many parts on BMW have been sourced from China and countless riders have had many quality problems with BMW. Corrosion (myself included), bevel gear failures, oval hubs, dropped valves. That said BMW have been very good on warranty and are fixing all the faults. Unlike guzzis of the past (ive owned them) My Norge has been faultless and I think they have at last got it right. To summarise, I think the Norge is far nicer to own. Its more comfortable, better to ride, has better indicators switches. The BMW has a better screen and wind protection. Regards

[ABStrommer]

If you had posted last year, I may have decided differently.  I ended up going with a used '07 RT.  In the end, the warranty, weather protection, cruise control, etc. won out.  No complaints (over 15,000 km this summer) so far (except I think a new seat may be on my shopping list over the winter).