Some Harley owners still delusional about their bikes' value

[atadaskew]

So I've been browsing cycletrader.com, looking at street bobs.
The 2009 is listed at $13000.  There are more people than I can count who are trying to sell used 2006 models for up to $16500!  These aren't custom jobs, just the typical SE pipes, air cleaner etc mods. One dood wants $14K for one that he wrecked!
Hmm, lemme see...
I'm guessing they bought their bikes in 05 before the credit crunch, paid over sticker and somehow still think they're an investment..
This is not a bag on Harley's (as I'm lookin' hard at them), but on some of the douchebags out there who are detached from reality.  Kinda like the kids trying to sell a 250Ninja for $6K...

[black hills]

But sometimes they find someone even farther detached and it all works out great for them

[ruffcut]

  Somebody will come along sooner or later and see his dream machine and he`ll pay whatever to get it. There`s a butt for every seat. The seller may be thinking like a used car salesman by asking a lot more than he really expects to get so he has some room to drop in price. On the other hand he might be nuts.

[black hills]

Just remember P.T. Barnum was right

[Playinthestreet]

I'd hazard a guess that many of the overpriced used H-Ds were not only bought at the top of the market, but financed as well.  10% down, 72 month contracts.  Read in the WSJ 6-8 months ago that, by mortgage loan standards, nearly 30% of H-D finance paper would be classified as sub-prime.

[nomadmax]

How many members would HOG have if it took a clear title to join?  Not many I suspect.  For the first time in a long time some HD owners are upside down in bike loans so the price they're asking isn't really based on what they think the bike is worth, (not deep down when they see the price of a new one) it's based on what they owe.  For every guy who walks into an HD Shop and plunks down cash (and I mean cash he had laying around, not cash he got from a home equity loan) a hundred will come in an buy with a loan and very little financial wherewithal.

The trouble is, most of these folks trying to sell themselves out of an upside down loan are so broke dick they can't sell it for what it's really worth because they can't absorb the difference.  Most of the time they can only eat a grand or two and that usually doesn't make their price competitive.  So, the only options are to stop riding the bike to protect residual value and pay the payments or let them repo it.  I know this is off topic a bit but loans for any kind of motor vehicle, especially one that isn't used to transport household goods and family 365 days a year should be avoided.

[Geoff]

Some Harley owners are delusional about their bike's value because they're upside down in their loan; they're not aware that new bike supply has caught up with demand; or they think the bling they added contributes to high resale value.  

[M.Brane]

 From what I've seen perusing the local bike classifieds pretty much all brands are overvalued.

 The HDs have been dropping lately though.

[atadaskew]

 From what I've seen perusing the local bike classifieds pretty much all brands are overvalued.

 The HDs have been dropping lately though.

I'm seeing 06 Dynas where the owners are asking $16K with basically no mods apart from pipe, couple o aftermarket trinkets. And this is  not the exception but the majority.  KBB lists them retail (as from a dealer not private party) at $11k.  These guys are asking more for their 06 bikes than 09s off the dealership floor.  Which there are lots and lots of....

[M.Brane]

 Yeah that's what happens when you use your overvalued home to finance your overvalued bike, and then reality pulls the rug out from underneath you.

 The sportbikes are just as bad. $5-6K for a 10-year-old sportbike? You can keep it.

[chornbe]

They just have VFR envy.

Some bikes are disproportionately valued and some are perceived as worth something more after certain things are added or resolved.

But yeah... delusions remain strong and fevered in the Faithful camp. No argument.

Look, people can ask whatever they want. The nutjobs paying it, they're the ones with the issues. Yes, most sellers are delusional, but if I can get an extra $3-4k by keeping it for sale a little longer, knowing that one of the faithful will sell him mom's ashes to a coke dealer in Fresno just to get the exact mix of stuff I've got on mine because he's a fucked-out ADD bike freak and needs what he needs... I'm cool with that.

As for financing... I financed my Street Glide. It cost more than my car. It's also my primary vehicle. A lot of riders say that, but with me, it's actually true. *I* put 4000 miles on my Corolla last year (my wife and kid, that's another story!   ). I put >20k on my bikes (the entire stable). That's a 5:1 bike->car mile ratio. The Corolla could die a horrible, devastating death tomorrow, and I'd just get something else... probably for $1000 and let it sit until January when the snow and sub-20 temps come.

If the bike died tomorrow (well, it's under warranty, but you know...) I'd replace it before the sun set with something comparably-able and never think twice about it. In all fairness, I have likely purchased my first and last two Harleys. They're cool bikes. They're exceptionally nice bikes. They're well built and have excellent quality in every part. If I had to replace the Glide and the Sportster tomorrow with other Harley(s), I might just to get a Dyna with all the quick-release stuff and call it done. The Dyna with suspension mods and quick release tour appointments would do better what each of these does for me, for what I want them for. You have to look pretty far to find a better 2-up legal-speed luxo-tourer than the Electraglide series, but I ride it more like a mid-weight sportier-tourer, and I could do that way cleaner on a Dyna. And for solo, I do that on the Sportster.

If brand was not an issue, I'd probably just get a Ulie-XT and a little Monster (or Shiver, or Mana, or SV or... or... or...) or maybe a 1200 Sportster Roadster (as a starting point).

I dunno.... see, this is why I'm not shopping bikes until it's actually time to replace them. I'll go nuts. Again.  

[scott-sts]

Yeah right.  Sport bikes are priced to sell.

[Geoff]

Asking and selling prices are two different birds, so don't be fooled by the classifieds. Here in northern Illinois we have a short riding season. There are lots of clean, used low mileage Harleys in the classifieds, especially 2003 anniversary bikes. Nice thing about buying used is you save on tax and there are no freight and prep charges.  

[atadaskew]

Asking and selling prices are two different birds, so don't be fooled by the classifieds.

I understand that, but when these turkeys are off by $5000 from dealer retail, you just don't want to bother.

[Playinthestreet]

I understand that, but when these turkeys are off by $5000 from dealer retail, you just don't want to bother.

I've got friends who have no qualms about offering sellers 1/2 the asking price but I just don't have it in me to do all that jerkin' around.  As an aside, I've been watching this bike for months and it's almost there...

http://www.califspeed.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/15697/subcatid/0/id/339430

[M.Brane]

I've got friends who have no qualms about offering sellers 1/2 the asking price but I just don't have it in me to do all that jerkin' around.

 +1

 I don't mind a little haggling, but I at least want to start with someone who's got a decent grasp on reality.

 Vintage bikes are a whole 'nother animal. I see there's an old XS on that page.

[Lon]

or they think the bling they added contributes to high resale value.

I've found this to be the case universally.  "I spent $1400 on a sweet pipe with no baffles, so that increases the value of my bike at least $900".

Try about $200.  Take it off and sell it; it's actually worth more off the bike than on.

[black hills]

 +1

 I don't mind a little haggling, but I at least want to start with someone who's got a decent grasp on reality.

 Vintage bikes are a whole 'nother animal. I see there's an old XS on that page.

I'm having this very problem right now... A fairly nice '88 hawk GT but the guy is sure it's worth $3400  

[photomd]

I ran into this when I decided to do a cafe bike. I thought a Sportster 1200 would do. Then I'd put an alloy tank, alloy bump stop seat and maybe a GSXR front end. I couldn't find a wrecked one for less than $5K. So now I'm doing it to a 30 year old Guzzi: works for me.  

[atadaskew]

 I don't mind a little haggling, but I at least want to start with someone who's got a decent grasp on reality.
 

Exactly!
True story.. there's a Jeep dealership in Thousand Oaks, CA called Shaver Jeep.  A few years ago, before oil was expensive and the economy tanked I was looking at Wranglers.  All the trucks in their lot had huge $5000 off signs on them.  Great, right?  So I take a look at them.  On the invoice it said in small print "dealer price adjustment $4500".  That meant they marked them $4500!  And then put on huge signs claiming $5000 off!  So it was only a $500 discount..  Salesman came over and the conversation went like this:
Salesman "Huge sale, $5000 off, an amazing deal"
Me         " But you have them marked up $4500"
Salesman "But we are giving you $5000 off!"
I walked away...
It's a complete waste of time if you have to haggle to just get it to the starting point.

[Playinthestreet]

Every guy in the world thinks a Hawk GT is worth $3500.  I think they're great bikes but $24-$2800 is the real world.  That 66 XLH on the site I linked to started at $10k 15 months ago.  

[black hills]

Every guy in the world thinks a Hawk GT is worth $3500.  I think they're great bikes but $24-$2800 is the real world.  That 66 XLH on the site I linked to started at $10k 15 months ago.  

Yea.. I'm gonna wait and see if it sells. If not I'll offer him less and see what happens. I think it would be perfect for the wife.

[4krysia]

Some Harley owners are delusional about their bike's value because they're upside down in their loan; they're not aware that new bike supply has caught up with demand; or they think the bling they added contributes to high resale value.  

the credit markets collapse (e.g. home equity lines of credit shrunken by da bank) is changing MANY Americans' discretionary spending.  Manufacturers / retailers selling things people 'want' rather than 'need' are in for an ugly year or two (Starbucks, Bennigans, Linens and things, etc. etc.).

heavy discounting of new toys WILL eventually squash down prices of used toys of every brand, its Economics 101.

[Bikenut]

I'm seeing 06 Dynas where the owners are asking $16K with basically no mods apart from pipe, couple o aftermarket trinkets. And this is  not the exception but the majority.  KBB lists them retail (as from a dealer not private party) at $11k.  These guys are asking more for their 06 bikes than 09s off the dealership floor.  Which there are lots and lots of....

Not only owners but dealers as well. I've seen 7 yr old Road Kings wearing a few trinkets with 50-60K on them and dealers asking $13K.

Look, people can ask whatever they want. The nutjobs paying it, they're the ones with the issues. Yes, most sellers are delusional, but if I can get an extra $3-4k by keeping it for sale a little longer, knowing that one of the faithful will sell him mom's ashes to a coke dealer in Fresno just to get the exact mix of stuff I've got on mine because he's a fucked-out ADD bike freak and needs what he needs... I'm cool with that.



.... see, this is why I'm not shopping bikes until it's actually time to replace them. I'll go nuts. Again.  

   Guilty, well, of being a nutjob bike freak with issues that knows what he needs anyway. I get new bike itch every couple years and sometimes it passes and other times I just hafta scratch it. This time it was a cruiser/tourer. It's always a _____/tourer. At first appearance I paid more than I should have for the Road King BUT, 1st, I paid cash, and 2nd, it was exactly the vision I had in my head. I mean exactly, right down to the custom paint. Saved me a metric ton of work and time. Now I could have waited and picked up a similar year/miles/condition bike for a better price but there's no way I could duplicate it for the same $$. I was actually looking at a NEW '07 Yamaha Stratoliner S for $11.2K. That's $5500 off list. But even at that I couldn't farkle/paint/mod it comparable to the HD. I actually made 2 lists with prices and cross referenced them. The HD ended up on top by having things that just could not be reasonably obtained on the Strat. A larger tank, 6 speed, factory tour pack, and paint with the 50's look (couldn't find wide whitewalls for the Strat), not to mention the support network and parts availability to go with it. Everything else could be duplicated but the $$ figure was very large.

    There's a saying about "an ass for every seat."... sarcasm optional. But if you figure in the mods you'll put on and they're the mods you want, it adds up. Otherwise, forget it.
    I have 2 friends that bought HD's recently. One was on a trip we took, I stopped in a shop for new grips (full chrome grips suck even worse than it sounds, I bought used remember) and he left with a new '08 Ultra, talk about impulse After haggling price down to $6k + his nicely apportioned Street Glide he then drops another $3K on "personalizing it". The other friend was all proud he got a bike for $12K, then immediately spent another $5K on it making it pretty much exactly what he could've bought new off the floor. The good deal seems to evaporate pretty quickly IMHO.
 
   I talked to a guy at a demo day last week who has a '03 anniversary Electra Glide with 26 miles on it. Cant sell it. Thinks it's a "collectable". Maybe if it still has 26 miles 20 years from now. These are the delusional ones.
   Another friend has a nice Ducati 900 monster sitting in his spare bedroom. Got it for $2k off as a late season leftover. Then lost his license in the spring, don't ask. He thinks it's still worth what he paid because it only has 700 miles on it. Duh. its 7 yrs old.


As for shopping bikes, I never stop. Doesn't hurt to look....usually.

[Baz]

You guys should see what went on up here.

Of course everyone wanted a collector edition 2003, 100th anniversary HD. The problem was that the Canadian dollar was at a all time low against the US greenback so there was a huge currency exchange markup attached to the already very rare 2003 collector edition.

I have a client who put in his order on an Ultra Classic and ended up settling for a 2002 model as the Dealer jerked him around on delivery on the 2003 he ordered. Anyway, he told me a while ago that he could buy an identical 2008 Ultra Classic for $12,000.00 less than he paid for his.   (If I can recall, he slapped down over $30,000.00 for his bike at the time, but I am not positive)

He was thinking of purchasing a new bike as he is very close to retiring, but he tells me he can't afford to trade his in.

I can tell you that locally, there are many HD riders who still feel that their bike is worth more than they paid new for it. For some reason the classifieds are full of H.D.'s.

Lots of the (ahem) "rare" 100th anniversary specials for sale.

[chornbe]

   Guilty, well, of being a nutjob bike freak with issues that knows what he needs anyway.

Ditto that, my man. ditto that. (Un)Fortunately I buy myself something new every 12-18 months. I gotta stop!

[Geoff]

 From what I've seen perusing the local bike classifieds pretty much all brands are overvalued.

 The HDs have been dropping lately though.

I call this market correction.

[Lon]

Ditto that, my man. ditto that. (Un)Fortunately I buy myself something new every 12-18 months. I gotta stop!

I think it's a disease.  I have the same problem.

[Bikenut]

It is, and sorry to say it is incurable. However it is treatable with the application of a new motorcycle at approximately 2 year intervals. Which themselves can be extended by large periodic influx of modifications, supplemented by accessories and farkles for the greatest effect.

 

[weaselope]

another bubble economy...the harley bubble...we need to take this serious folks.  If that bubble bursts, tons of bike hauling trailers, ford harley pick up trucks, bad tatoos and stuffed bears will go unsold.  People may even start dressing preppy again.  The effects could be widespread.

and I actually like harleys...

[Baz]

You mean my ex brother in law will not show up anymore wearing a scull cap & flip flops in -30 degree weather?

Of course him dressing as a yuppie may make for some pretty cruel jokes also.

[Geoff]

another bubble economy...the harley bubble...we need to take this serious folks.  If that bubble bursts, tons of bike hauling trailers, ford harley pick up trucks, bad tatoos and stuffed bears will go unsold.  People may even start dressing preppy again.  The effects could be widespread.

and I actually like harleys...

Good point. I never thought about all those Sturgis Specials (trailers) coming on the market.