How do you know when you're not using the clutch?

[SWriverstone]

I know, the subject line was dumb...let me explain...

When I first started riding, I pulled the clutch all the way in with each shift.

Then, over time, my "clutch travel" distance gradually became less and less, as I quickly discovered that pulling in the clutch less meant smoother, faster shifts...

...until now, I find on the Wee-Strom that I barely move the clutch at all—I might be pulling it in a half-inch, even if that. I basically just "bump" it for shifts.

So I started wondering this morning...am I even using the clutch?   Or are my tiny clutch bumps not really doing anything and I'm really just shifting without the clutch? (There's very little play in my clutch BTW...I recently adjusted it and there's maybe 1/8-1/4" of play at most).

Whatever I'm doing, the bike doesn't seem to mind as my shifts are smooth, fast, and precise. I'm just wondering if I'm doing any harm?

Scott

PS - I also realized today that I don't have a clue how a clutch even works...so I plan to study up on that!

[zuke scoot]

You won't have a problem shifting without the clutch if you do it correctly.  i.e.--let off the gas then upshift.  This works best when shifting at higher RPMs.  Most of my riding is around town commuting, so there is no reason for me to wind it out, so I just short shift at low RPMs while using the clutch.  

[jeremy556]

If you are rolling off the throttle, you may not be using the clutch to shift. Try doing this when you want to upshift:

Put light pressure on the shifter, then while still applying light pressure, roll of the throttle, and the transmission will shift. Think of it as shifting with the throttle, not the pedal, do not kick it into gear.

When you are first trying it, do it gears 3 and up, do it while going in a straight line under relatively small amounts of throttle. This will make it easier to get a feel for it.

[SWriverstone]

Okay---good suggestions! I'll try that. I've known about clutchless (throttle) shifting, but never really tried it. I do, however, normally preload the shifter a bit---just enough so I feel like I've "taken the slack out of it" before shifting. But I've never flat-out tried to shift without the clutch at all.

Seems like I might have heard some controversy regarding whether or not clutchless shifting does any harm...any opinions on that? (Or do I not want to go there?  ) Or maybe it's one of those things where if you do it *right* it doesn't do any harm?

Scott

[roadrunner]

I might be pulling it in a half-inch, even if that. I basically just "bump" it for shifts.

So I started wondering this morning...am I even using the clutch?  

When standing still with the bike in first gear and the clutch at the distance described above does the bike want to move at all?  Thats the easiest way to tell how much of the clutch your using.

[SWriverstone]

When standing still with the bike in first gear and the clutch at the distance described above does the bike want to move at all?  Thats the easiest way to tell how much of the clutch your using.

Hmm...good idea. (Why didn't I think of that?) I don't know, but I'll try that. From pulled all the way in, the clutch on the Wee-Strom engages pretty early...so I'm guessing that yeah, the bike would definitely be moving with the clutch in just a half-inch!

Scott

[motoguy128]

Harm?

Well the tranny on my '01 CBR600F4i started jumping out of 3rd gear under load after I began clutchless upshiftin most of ht time.  It only had around 25,000 miles on it, but almost 200 were on the racetrack, the last 1200 or so I was upshifting almsot exclusively clutchless.  On the street I did clutchlees upsifts abotu 50% of the time over about the last 8-10k miles.

Coincidence...maybe, but i think constantly preloading the lever makes the shift forks wear out prematurely.  That was the main reason I had problems.  Shift forks were badly work and the gear dogs were rounded off pretty bad too.  

Maybe I wasn't lifting off the throttle enough  or my timing was bad, but I just assume use the clutch these days and not take my chances.

[akrobatx]

When you down shift do you use the full amount of clutch lever travel or just "bump" it like on the up shift?  If the clutch is not disengaging enough it should be evident on the sudden, lurching shift to a lower gear.

[county]

There's a lotta stuff on a bike that you don't hafta use, rear (or front) brake, turn signals, clutch, for example and then there's stuff you can modify and not use like the headlite and emission controls.

Me, I figure they put that stuff on for a reason.  I paid for it, I might as well use it.

[bomber]

clutchless upshifting won't harm a thing -- specially if by "preloading" the shifter, you do not mean putting a great deal of pressure on it (some shifter forks seem to be made of potmetal -- none are forged steel) -- with some forks (the aforementioned nasty ones) you could wear them by leaning a lil hard on the shifter

if you shift quickly enough to engage the dogs on teh side of the gears, you'll be fine -- if you're NOT shifting fast enough, you'll be reward by the sound of the dogs grinding against each other before engaging

there are many controls and features on motorcycles, all of which do serve a purpose -- next time I see a bike going straight down teh street with the blinkers on and the horn blaring, straining against both activated brakes -- I'll know its county

[Andrew]

There's a lotta stuff on a bike that you don't hafta use, rear (or front) brake, turn signals, clutch, for example and then there's stuff you can modify and not use like the headlite and emission controls.

Me, I figure they put that stuff on for a reason.  I paid for it, I might as well use it.

Add me on that list. I figure that stuff is there for a reason and if using the clutch helps me avoid repairs than I will keep using it.

[jeremy556]

Add me on that list. I figure that stuff is there for a reason and if using the clutch helps me avoid repairs than I will keep using it.

Still use the clutch to get moving and to downshift when you use clutchless shifting. Using the clutch, rolling off the throttle, or an ignition interrupt on a speed shifter all do the same thing, just in different ways. Use whichever you prefer.

[R.Markus]

Get a Rekluse and be done with the clutch lever all together.  

[photomd]

On a tranny like yours, the dogs have to engage between the gears. In order for that to happen smoothly, the shaft on the engine side needs to be turning close to the same speed as the other shafts. There is usually three shafts: an input intermediate and output shaft. So you can either pull the clutch (however) slightly to engage those gears or do it with the throttle.

IMHO, I've watched people do clutchless shifts at the MX track  and talk about how much faster they are. Then they have to have their trannies rebuilt in 1-2 years. I don't understand how you can be precise enough with the throttle to shift without banging gears (usually dogs, in the case of most jap trannies). Banging causes wear. Pulling in the clutch removes the engine input so it'll slide in easier. Then the clutch is used to match the speed of the two shafts. IMHO, I'd rather replace a clutch than fix a tranny.

[sagerat]

The bike stalls.  

[Twistedpinion]

I learned how to and occasionally practice shifting up/down without the clutch, but day to day it's less stress on the trans to use the clutch.

[HipGnosis]

I've done clutchless, 'throttle' up and down shifting for years on multiple bikes.
Started w/ a GPZ750; great tranny.  35+K w/o problems.
The wifes Virago didn't like to do it (so I didn't).
Forgot how many miles on the 650 Nighhawk and Yammy FZ.
50+K on the Sprint RS w/o problems.
25K so far on the K12RS.
No 'banging',  No stress, when done right.

[atypical1]

Half an inch is probably plenty to disengage the clutch.

Why not practice at a stop and seeing how far you have to let the clutch out before it engages? That will tell you if you are disengaging the clutch or not.

Scott, no offense but you need to sit down and so some reading. Try "Proficient Motorcycling" for a start as this gets into some of the physics of why the bike acts the way it does. Also a  basic maintenance manual will help unlock some of the mysteries of your bike.

james

[Kootenanny]

PS - I also realized today that I don't have a clue how a clutch even works...so I plan to study up on that!

A clutch is actually very simple.  Basically, you have one set of discs which are splined on the inside, and another set splined on the outside.  One of these sets have friction material (much like brake pads) on them, the other set is straight steel.  These two sets are stacked, alternating the "friction discs" with the plain discs, and set into a "basket," which has an inside ring which fits the inner splines on the one set of discs, and the outer case splines to the other set of discs.   The inner ring is connected to the transmission input shaft, and the outer case is turned by the engine.  When there is no pressure on the stack of discs, the outer case of the basket can turn, turning the discs splined to it, but the discs splined to the inner ring can sit still; apply pressure to the stack, though, and the friction discs and plain discs are forced together, which forces the inner ring to spin along with the outer case.

The pressure is applied by springs; pulling the clutch lever pulls the pressure plate away from the stack against the spring pressure.

There, clear as mud now?  Pull one apart sometime...it becomes obvious how it works...

[denydog]

I know I'm not using the clutch when I'm shifting while waving at other motorcyclists.

[Bodhi]

I have to admit I don't understand the mechanics, but I have this psychological thing that makes me feel I should pull in the clutch a little when upshifting for some reason - certainly not as much as when I first started riding - but I do have a mental aversion to clutchless shifts. I learned early on that the gear changes were much smoother and quicker with just a litttle clutch work (as opposed to fully disengaging). I still sometimes have to remind myself to ease the clutch back out to avoid jerky shifts. Especially in hairy commuting traffic.

[SWriverstone]

Thanks for the description Kootenanny. There's another excellent description here, the Patman's Rekluse Clutch review on KLRWorld.com:
http://www.klrworld.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=156

(Scroll about halfway down the article for a section on how clutches work.)

The Rekluse clutch is pretty amazing; the way it works is via steel ball bearings that sit in grooves that are deep toward the center of the disk and shallower toward the edge.

As the plates spin up, the ball bearings roll out/up (into the shallower part of the grooves) from centripetal force, forcing the plates together. Pretty ingenious!   I'm still thinking of getting one of these. As the Patman says, the Rekluse controls the clutch better than any human ever could.  

Scott

[thatguy]

 

Oh well I guess people that can't ride gotta have fun too.

[chornbe]

Wait... you're supposed to use the clutch once you're moving...?

 

[RedCBRRider]

 

[stasch]

You can check real quick if you're actually disengaging the clutch or not.

While cruising at a steady speed, pull your clutch lever the same small amount that you have been for your normal shifting.  

Whether or not the engine increases rpm suddenly, will give you the answer.