"Lower Maintenance" on Ducatis?

[Rogue]

Lately, Ducati has been spreading word that their bikes requires "less maintenance" than before.  I have even read somewhere that it is up to 50% less.  Heck!  So has anyone read the long term review of the Ducati 1098 in the latest Cycle World mag?

They just did the 7,500 mile service on the bike at a dealership in Socal:   $729 parts and labor!   

That service includes:
Valve inspection
Oil/filter change
Replace Spark plugs ($34 ea.)
Timing Belt Check
Re-set throttle Position Sensor

Labor rate is $90/hour.  Fairly standard in SoCal.  I had my car serviced at an independent shop and they charged the same rate.

I know Ducati's are sweet bikes but that ladies and gents is pretty fooking steep every 7,500 miles!  It would probably be easier to swallow every 15k miles but about twice a year?  It's a V-twin so shouldn't it be less?  Ouch!

I'm sure that my VFR would cost the same at 15k miles if I had the dealer do all the work.  Even then, I still think that is fooking ridiculous for a Honda!  And I can just hear some of you:  if you can't afford to pay, don't play.  I CAN afford to pay but that doesn't mean I'm that stupid!  In a day when we can get high performance automobiles that put out mega-horsepower yet don't pay that much every year in maintenance, they can make bikes that are similar!  For example, how about 50k miles spark plugs and coolant?  hydraulic roller-type valvetrains that don't go out of spec?  Self-resetting TPS sensors?  Why does Ducati insist on belt-driven cam drives that require constant checks and replacements?

[xbud]

  Maintenance on Ducati's is no more difficult than replacing brake pads on a Honda Civic.....Or A Chevy Truck. With the proper manual and some tools it is pretty easy to replace the Spark Plugs and Change the Oil. The valve clearance inspection takes a little more, but to check and see if they are within spec is not too bad, and if they are out of spec then take it to the dealer. But to take it to the dealer for every little thing will definately break the bank.

[Rogue]

Yes but why every 7,500 miles?  

Most japanese makes have moved on to every 15k or 26k miles (Yamaha).

[IvanJ]

I'm sure that my VFR would cost the same at 15k miles if I had the dealer do all the work.  Even then, I still think that is fooking ridiculous for a Honda!  And I can just hear some of you:  if you can't afford to pay, don't play.  I CAN afford to pay but that doesn't mean I'm that stupid!

I don't think owning a Ducati is stupid.  I do all the maintenance on my 2V Duc, with the exception of resetting the TPS, which takes all of about 10 minutes at the dealer.  I actually enjoy working on my Duc.  The 4V engine is more difficult, but its not impossible to DIY.  I'll find out for sure when I pick up a 4V track bike soon.

In a day when we can get high performance automobiles that put out mega-horsepower yet don't pay that much every year in maintenance, they can make bikes that are similar! 

BS... If the dealer did all the work, my modest BMW 330 coupe would cost way more in maintenance than my Duc.  Ever get a quote for an oil change from a BMW dealer?

For example, how about 50k miles spark plugs and coolant?  hydraulic roller-type valvetrains that don't go out of spec?  Self-resetting TPS sensors?  Why does Ducati insist on belt-driven cam drives that require constant checks and replacements?

I'll take the desmo valve system over anything else, with or without belt driven cams.  Constant checking and replacement???  Checking/setting belt tension takes about 10 minutes.  You only need to check the tension every 7500mi, and replace the belts every 15kmi or 2 years (replacement takes about 20 minutes).   Checking the valve clearances and changing shims is a bit more involved, but no more difficult than shim under bucket type valves.  You don't even need to pull the cams on the 2V engines.

Pick any bike... if you have the dealer do all of the servicing you better get ready to bend over.  This even applies to the dead simple Harleys.  The HD dealers get an obscene amount of money to perform routine maintenance.  Does this mean that all Harley owners are stupid???

[IvanJ]

Yes but why every 7,500 miles?  

To account for wear.  That is the price of entry for the highly efficient desmo valve train.

Most japanese makes have moved on to every 15k or 26k miles (Yamaha).

Most bikes don't use the desmo valve system.

[st ryder]

Lately, Ducati has been spreading word that their bikes requires "less maintenance" than before.  I have even read somewhere that it is up to 50% less.  Heck!  So has anyone read the long term review of the Ducati 1098 in the latest Cycle World mag?

They just did the 7,500 mile service on the bike at a dealership in Socal:   $729 parts and labor!   

That service includes:
Valve inspection
Oil/filter change
Replace Spark plugs ($34 ea.)
Timing Belt Check
Re-set throttle Position Sensor

Labor rate is $90/hour.  Fairly standard in SoCal.  I had my car serviced at an independent shop and they charged the same rate.

I know Ducati's are sweet bikes but that ladies and gents is pretty fooking steep every 7,500 miles!  It would probably be easier to swallow every 15k miles but about twice a year?  It's a V-twin so shouldn't it be less?  Ouch!

I'm sure that my VFR would cost the same at 15k miles if I had the dealer do all the work.  Even then, I still think that is fooking ridiculous for a Honda!  And I can just hear some of you:  if you can't afford to pay, don't play.  I CAN afford to pay but that doesn't mean I'm that stupid!  In a day when we can get high performance automobiles that put out mega-horsepower yet don't pay that much every year in maintenance, they can make bikes that are similar!  For example, how about 50k miles spark plugs and coolant?  hydraulic roller-type valvetrains that don't go out of spec?  Self-resetting TPS sensors?  Why does Ducati insist on belt-driven cam drives that require constant checks and replacements?

  Oh, here's something new.  

Enjoy your VFR, they are nice bikes.  

Only if you ever reach a point when you need something more from a motorcycle than your VFR can deliver will the answers to your questions become self-evident. Until then, nobody or no thing will convince you otherwise.  

  OWNING AND RIDING A DUCATI ROCKS!!!!

[Orson]

The magazines keep using the bland label when describing Hondas.

That's just so mean.  

[Rogue]

I don't think owning a Ducati is stupid.  BS... If the dealer did all the work, my modest BMW 330 coupe would cost way more in maintenance than my Duc.  Ever get a quote for an oil change from a BMW dealer?
Pick any bike... if you have the dealer do all of the servicing you better get ready to bend over.  This even applies to the dead simple Harleys.  The HD dealers get an obscene amount of money to perform routine maintenance.  Does this mean that all Harley owners are stupid???

I never said owning a Ducati is stupid.  Where the hell did you get that?  I said paying that much for maintenance every 7,500  miles is stupid!

BTW, BMW's are known to have exhorbitant maintance costs.  This is why they usually include all maintenance as part of the price at least for the first 36 or 48 months.  I thought the engines on those things come with Mobil 1 Synthetic and don't need frequent oil changes?  In any case, making service part of the price makes the maintenance costs transparent to the car's primary owners.  Later owners usually have the burden of the expensive maintenance.  You bought a 330i then I guess you prepared yourself to pay for all that maintenance.  You could have bought some other car that required less maintenance with similar performance but you didn't.  I'm not blaming you for that, nor do you have to justify that decision.    

Now if you want to compare Ducati maintenance to a H-D, you will loose all the time.  Today's modern H-D with the exception of the VR-engines require no more than an oil/filter change, spark plugs and air filters.  They don't even need primary chain inspections nor TPS sensor resets.  Also, H-D charges the standard $90/hour labor rate just like the Ducati.  I can assure you that the maintenance on a modern H-D do not come near $700 every 7,500 miles, not even at 15k miles.  Now on a Japanese bike, it may indeed approach $700 for the 15k/24k mile service if you have the dealer do everything.  Just not every 7,500 miles.  Japanese manufacturers have moved away from that number many years ago.  And that was my original point.  Why do Ducs require major maintenance every 7,500 miles?  And $34/spark plug?  You're kidding me!  Good thing there's only two!

[Rogue]

Only if you ever reach a point when you need something more from a motorcycle than your VFR can deliver will the answers to your questions become self-evident. Until then, nobody or no thing will convince you otherwise.  

  OWNING AND RIDING A DUCATI ROCKS!!!!

You're kidding right?  You sound like a very elitist Ducatisti by implying the Ducatis will deliver where the VFR cannot.  Shea right! 

Want to know the REAL truth?  Ducatis are nice bikes.  But the Japanese can make better bikes at half the price. 

C'mon, you know that's true.  Pick a market niche, any market niche and tell me which one does Ducati offer a superior product?  The only area where Ducati shines is in sportbikes.  They have the 1098 and the 798.  Both are excellent bikes in their own rights.  But Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki all make equivalent models that are just as good at half their prices and less maintenance.  So please don't tell me there's anything more than meets the eye when it comes to Ducati bikes.  I only drink two brands of Kool Aids:  Honda and Buell.   

[Orson]

A lot of Ducati owners pay more because of that intangible, ethereal feeling Italian bikes are capable of providing.

They appreciate that feeling.

Just like some people appreciate French impressionist paintings, while others only see squiggly lines. For those who don't appreciate impressionists, Honda provides a model range.

The 300 Ducati world championships compared to Honda's 2 is only icing on the cake  

[atadaskew]

 Pick a market niche, any market niche and tell me which one does Ducati offer a superior product? 

Ok, I'll play.  When I was shopping for an St type bike I first test rode a Vtec VFR.  I found it heavy, bland, boring and slow with low end suspension with minimum adjustability.  There was absolutely no excitement in that bike for me.
I then test rode a St4s. Holy crap was that something.  Lighter, a dynamite motor that had power everywhere, much better suspension, better handling.  And forget about the sound and feel of the v-twin.  Guess which one I bought?
Yah Ducati dropped the sport tourers due to the fact that they are a small niche company and St bikes are an even smaller niche! So, focus where the money is.  Too bad.
Enjoy the Honda.

But, to your point of service costs. I'm not going to defend what the dealers charge.  It's nuts. But you can either do it yourself or go to an indie shop - there are some fantastic ones out there better than the dealers (I go to motoservizio in Signal Hill) that will do the service, better, for literally half the price.
Before I knew about this I was willing to eat the service costs because I was, and still am, absolutely obsessed by the bike.  5 years on and it still does it for me.  Every Honda that I have owned I have kept maybe 2 years tops before I became bored with it and sold it.  Now lets talk about costs, seeing the money I lost on those transactions!
$750 for a 7500 job is expensive.  But even if you were willing to pay for that just work it into your budget.  How much is a Starbucks run? $4?  Do that 5 times a week (as lots of peeps do) and you're looking at $80/month.  $400 in 5 months.  Stop doing that and your service cost works out to be $350 if you ride 7500 miles every 5 months.
It all comes down to what things are worth to you.  To me Ducatis are completely worth it.  You pays your money, you makes your choice.

[JoBu]

A lot of Ducati owners pay more because of that intangible, ethereal feeling Italian bikes are capable of providing.

They appreciate that feeling.

Just like some people appreciate French impressionist paintings, while others only see squiggly lines. For those who don't appreciate impressionists, Honda provides a model range.

+1 Well put, Orson.  I also had much the same experience as Atadaskew as well.  Lots of folks will dismiss those intangibles and claim that there is no true difference in "feeling" that a bike can give a ride, but then again, there are folks who buy The Lion King soundtrack.      Why do people sink thousands upon thousands of dollars into hi-end audio equipment while other folks are content so listen to music through a basic 5.1 surrounds system?  Because it makes them happy perhaps, on both counts?  Most likely so.  I really enjoy my R1 and it simply crushed my old '99 Duc 900SS on paper.  Yet, I would find myself grabbing the key for the Duc 4 out of 5 times (and no, I'm not a dentist).    And for the record, I feel my R1 makes all the VFRs I've ridden feel quite bland, so if I owned both, I'd be chaulking up a lot more miles on the R1 than the VFR.  But that's just me.  

Simply stated, it comes down to whether or not it really speaks to you or not.  If it does, you'll be willing to pay extra for the maintenance or try to find more affordable routes to get it done.  If not, well, buy something that makes you happy and let it be.  I guess I don't understand why the topic was even brought up.  Ducati owners as well as many non-Ducati owners are aware of the maintenance costs associated with the bikes.  And while you didn't come out and call Ducati Owners stupid, by association with the maintenance costs you posted, you implied as much.  And if not stupid...at least a little nuts...LOL  So don't be shocked if a few feathers get ruffled.    Hey, after all it is the internet, right?  

And for the record, I paid $1500 for 3 years free maintenance (unlimited mileage) for my ST4s (the dreaded 4-valve, liquid-cooled brick).    Hopefully I won't appear stupid in your eyes.  If I were to appear so, I don't know how I could go on...  (Hope you know I'm just kidding around).    

Cheers,

Joe

[Ghost Dog]

It's like owning a Ferrari over a Corvette or a Stealth. Respective owners can argue stats and featues ad-nauseum, but the biggest difference is intangible. Anyone who cannot understand, can (and probaboy does):

Drink wine out of a box.

Buy their clothes at Walmart.

Play a Squier guitar.

Celebrate something by having a Steakhouse Burger.

Wear a Sears suit to an important job interview.

[marc11]

Can someone tell me what the point of his post is?  His point seems to be that motorcycles, all except HD are maintenance intensive, some more than others, DUH, WELCOME TO NOW.  What is the difference between a bike requiring 7500 mile valve checks and 15k valve checks, when, if in your comparison, cars and HD bikes do not require them?  All bikes that require ANY maintenance over a car, using your logic is inefficient and stupid, no?  Why not pick on tires that only last 4k miles?

And since when is having a v-twin cheaper than any other number of cylinders, do you think dealers charge by the cylinder?  Just ask Buell 1125 owners who need to drop the engine to change the front plug.  It is only one plug, shouldn't it be cheaper than changing the two in my Versys?

Listen, the only mystery about Ducati maintenance is the fact that A) There is no mystery! If you buy a Duc and then are surprised by the maintenance schedule and costs, you are indeed an idiot, B) most maintenance can be done at home, if you can change the oil in a VFR you can change it just the same in a Ducati, D) Paying $90 an hour when there are more than qualified ind shops out there that charge actual work hours at a reasonable rate instead of the "book" rate, is just silly and finally E) It is a known fact, if set up correctly valves do not have to be checked nearly as often and belts changed nearly as often as Ducati recommends.

Finally, had they changed the oil and filter and ignored the TPS (doesn't usually need checking) and take out TAX (this is a big factor and should always be removed when comparing apples to apples costs since tax rates and tax able items vary) I am willing to bet the cost for the valve check and belt check was less than $600, which isn't that bad considering the labor rate.  Take it to an independent shop and I bet that cost drops below $500.

[Brad1445]

I don't pay much more for maintenance on my Duc than my Busa, and I love my Duc.

PS:  I purchased unlimited 3 year maintenance on both bikes,

[scratch]

...Pick a market niche, any market niche and tell me (in) which one does Ducati offer a superior product? 

Answer: the Ducati niche.  

[atadaskew]

Answer: the Ducati niche.  

Hmm, the RC51 and SuperHawk used to try to reside in that too....

[IvanJ]

I never said owning a Ducati is stupid.  Where the hell did you get that?  I said paying that much for maintenance every 7,500  miles is stupid!

So by implication, anyone that owns a Duc and pays the going rate to have it serviced must be stupid....  that is very narrow minded.  Given how slowly I work, it would be more cost effective to have the dealer do my valve adjustments.  I only choose to do it myself because I want the clearances set to my satisfaction, and I enjoy doing it.

BTW, BMW's are known to have exhorbitant maintance costs.  This is why they usually include all maintenance as part of the price at least for the first 36 or 48 months.  I thought the engines on those things come with Mobil 1 Synthetic and don't need frequent oil changes?  In any case, making service part of the price makes the maintenance costs transparent to the car's primary owners.  Later owners usually have the burden of the expensive maintenance.  You bought a 330i then I guess you prepared yourself to pay for all that maintenance.  You could have bought some other car that required less maintenance with similar performance but you didn't.  I'm not blaming you for that, nor do you have to justify that decision.    

As a long time owner, you're not telling me something I don't already know.  Besides, its all irrelevant.  The point I was making is that if you take ANYTHING to a dealership (BMW, HD, even a boring Honda), you are going to get raped.  Why should a Duc be any different?

Now if you want to compare Ducati maintenance to a H-D, you will loose all the time.  Today's modern H-D with the exception of the VR-engines require no more than an oil/filter change, spark plugs and air filters.  They don't even need primary chain inspections nor TPS sensor resets.  Also, H-D charges the standard $90/hour labor rate just like the Ducati.  I can assure you that the maintenance on a modern H-D do not come near $700 every 7,500 miles, not even at 15k miles.

Nowhere did I say that the cost of maintaining an HD was comparable to a Duc.  I said that the dealers get an obscene amount of money for performing simple maintenance like an oil change.  Same point as above, just a different example.  BTW, I used to own an HD, and you do need to adjust the primary chain something like every 7500mi, not that its difficult or anything.

 Now on a Japanese bike, it may indeed approach $700 for the 15k/24k mile service if you have the dealer do everything.

OK, so now you're getting it, you seem to realize how pointless your original post is.


Enjoy your VFR; having ridden one once, I know that I would not be satisfied even if it came with free maintenance for life.

[Baz]

 

[st ryder]

...You're kidding right?  You sound like a very elitist Ducatisti by implying the Ducatis will deliver where the VFR cannot.  Shea right! 

  ROTFLMAO!!  

Okay, let me see if I get your double standard right: I'm a Ducati elitist for loving owning and riding my Ducati because I both desire and appreciate those things that your VFR can never deliver, but you, who drinks Buell and Honda Kool Aid before he goes trolling for no good reason is *not* an elitist?  

Like I said above, until you are tired of owning Japanese bikes because they leave you wanting more after a ride, you *cannot* "get it." Ducati owners don't begrudge the expenses of owning a Ducati because they exchange their money for the joy that their Ducatis give them.

If I'm a Ducati elitist, then you are a Honda conformist for owning just another motorised recreational product made by a company that seems to have lost its passion for motorcycles years ago. Oh, but I forgot, you also own a Buell, so that makes you a person who according to you appreciates bikes that are different, not main stream, but somehow you fail to see this exact similar quality in Ducati motorcycles. It seems that Kool Aid you're drinking makes you as big a hypocrite as you are a troll.  

[jsanford]

Yes but why every 7,500 miles?  

Most japanese makes have moved on to every 15k or 26k miles (Yamaha).

26k between valve checks?  Good luck with that.

*clicks the ignore button*

[JoBu]

26k between valve checks?  Good luck with that.

*clicks the ignore button*

Ummmm...actually, that's true.    My R1 valve checks are only once every 26K.  I'm at 16K on it and everything is still ducky (couldn't resist).    The interval is pretty high on my FJR as well, but I can't recall the actual number off the top of my head.  But, I think these are still the exceptions.  Most bikes are around the 12K mark (I think).  

Cheers,

Joe

[Dave the slave]

Okay back to the original topic:

I am contemplating an 848, it's one of just a few bikes that really turn my crank (pun intended!) but I have never owned a non Japanese sport bike (in fact the ONLY non Jap bike I owned was a 1996 Buell M2, and that was a nightmare)  

I have to admit I'm pretty nervous about the potential expense and/or down time of a Ducati.  I know I can afford the bike cause it's only a bit more than a new Liter bike, but can I afford to maintain it properly?  If I were to ride *about* 10,000 miles a year what would this likely cost me?

[Orson]

I have to admit I'm pretty nervous about the potential expense and/or down time of a Ducati.  I know I can afford the bike cause it's only a bit more than a new Liter bike, but can I afford to maintain it properly?  If I were to ride *about* 10,000 miles a year what would this likely cost me?

I rode my first Ducati in 1983, a '78 Ducati Darmah.

It was a total revelation after being on Japanese bikes. It was rough, it took Popeye forearms to pull in the clutch. But it was the raw, mechanical vibe that overwhelmed all other sensations. It snorted and roared. I felt as if I was on a one off prototype racer.

I was never the same afterwards.

I had an '84 FJ-1100 at the same time. Nice bike. A comfy, all day sport touring bike. No complaints.

But the ducati was alive.  

I find it a bit sad that some would rob themselves of knowing this feeling for fear of breaking down or costs.

It's about more than that.  

[Desmo Demon]

I just completed a valve adjustment, timing belt change, and full-synthetic oil change with filter on my wife's '01 Monster 900ie. Total cost was.....$93.00 and a casual six hours of my time.  

[Mr. Whippy]

I'm currently doing a MAJOR service at 17,000 miles on my Mulitstrada.  Valves:  vertical exhaust a little tight. Some light sanding and I'm good to go.  Air filter done.  Oil and filter change, done.  Still have the chain and sprockets to do, brake pads, fuel filter and fork oil.  I'm also swapping out the fuel level sender to a new (and presumably more accurate) version.

When I'm done, I'll have $400 in parts.  Plus my time.  It's been easier to work on than my R1100S (except for the valves, but BMWs are ridiculously easy valves).

[scott-sts]

I think Rogue made some valid points.  Ducatis are clearly more maint intensive than Japanese bikes.  Not sure how you can argue this fact.
Ducati chose to take the "50% less maint" angle in their advertising because they viewed this as a weak point in their ability to sell more motorcycles.  Otherwise, why even mention it?
Drink Ducati's Kool-Aid all you want.  Bottom line is they require more maint than similar Japanese bikes.

[atadaskew]

I just completed a valve adjustment, timing belt change, and full-synthetic oil change with filter on my wife's '01 Monster 900ie. Total cost was.....$93.00 and a casual six hours of my time.  

You overcharged yourself.  Freakin' rip off owners...

[mike goodwin]

I just completed a valve adjustment, timing belt change, and full-synthetic oil change with filter on my wife's '01 Monster 900ie. Total cost was.....$93.00 and a casual six hours of my time.  

Although i have no desire to own a Ducati i truely wonder if someone in their own garage could do a valve adjustment on a V-Tec VFR in six hours??

[Orson]

I think Rogue made some valid points.  Ducatis are clearly more maint intensive than Japanese bikes.  Not sure how you can argue this fact.
Ducati chose to take the "50% less maint" angle in their advertising because they viewed this as a weak point in their ability to sell more motorcycles.  Otherwise, why even mention it?
Drink Ducati's Kool-Aid all you want.  Bottom line is they require more maint than similar Japanese bikes.

lets see you do a valve job on a VFR  

[atadaskew]

I think Rogue made some valid points.  Ducatis are clearly more maint intensive than Japanese bikes.  Not sure how you can argue this fact.

Yes, they do cost a bit more.  But how is this news and the start of a thread?  We just pointed out all the things you can do to minimize the costs so you don't need to spend your life in Honda monotony where the only excitement is wondering when your R/R is going to fail and dreaming about the mythical updated VFR.

[Orson]

so you don't need to spend your life in Honda monotony where the only excitement is wondering when your R/R is going to fail and dreaming about the mythical updated VFR.

that was harsh.

They do have Repsol paint jobs.

[Desmo Demon]

You overcharged yourself.  Freakin' rip off owners...

Actually, I probably should have charged myself more. Appearantly, the previous owners never did the valves on it, so at 12k, I had to change 7 of the 8 shims. If it weren't for that, it would have taken a lot less and been less time consuming. Since I do not know the engine's history ont he Monster, I'll check the valves again at 18k, and if they don't stray much, I'll only check the valves every 12k miles like I do with my ST2, now.

[st ryder]

...Bottom line is they require more maint than similar Japanese bikes.

Who doesn't know that, especially among Ducati owners who freely chose Ducati knowing they cost more to service? A valid point cannot be made out of an emphatic reiteration of the painfully obvious and universally known facts can it?

No, it was a troll me thinks, but that's okay because I interpret it as a "cry for help" as it were, from a "Honda" person struggling with the secret desire to own a Ducati, but not yet able to get past the preconceptions and let go of the fears before taking the plunge. How can one explain his feelings to his VFR crew without fear of being shunned?   Let go of the fears, and chances are one will be more than pleasantly surprised by the Ducati ownership experience, which cannot be appreciated let alone understood by thowing stones from the outside at the object of one's secret desire, as a coping mechanism to help deal with the feelings of traitorous guilt that the dyed in the wool Japanese but "Ducati curious" motorcycle rider goes through after bashing Ducati for decades, and then suddently realising he has a boner for one. What to do? Bash some more!!! Bash those feelings down all one wants, but they don't go away. It just makes that slice of humble pie harder to get down once one gets the courage to let go completely and buy a Ducati.

It's okay to let go of the pre-purchase apprehensions and allow your horizons to broaden, and to finally admit you were wrong about something you formed an opinion on based soley on what others with no more ownership experience than you said, and to free yourself from the self-limiting preconceptions that are no longer able to restrain your lust for a Ducati, and your need to grow as a motorcyclist.  

"I was once as you are now,..." Ducatis ROCK!!!

[scratch]

.                                 Well, I'd just like to say: Go Team Red!  

[TheCloser]

What value do you place on what makes you happy?  If a Ducati is the answer to your passion and you can afford it, then do so.  If someone else, and who probably doesn't own a Ducati, wants to complain about the maintenance costs, then it just might be envy on their part.  

Me?  I took one look at the new 2009 Ducati Streetfighter S and fell in immediate lust!  
Actually being able to afford one is something I have to work on.

[scott-sts]

Who doesn't know that, especially among Ducati owners who freely chose Ducati knowing they cost more to service? A valid point cannot be made out of an emphatic reiteration of the painfully obvious and universally known facts can it?

No, it was a troll me thinks, but that's okay because I interpret it as a "cry for help" as it were, from a "Honda" person struggling with the secret desire to own a Ducati, but not yet able to get past the preconceptions and let go of the fears before taking the plunge. How can one explain his feelings to his VFR crew without fear of being shunned?   Let go of the fears, and chances are one will be more than pleasantly surprised by the Ducati ownership experience, which cannot be appreciated let alone understood by thowing stones from the outside at the object of one's secret desire, as a coping mechanism to help deal with the feelings of traitorous guilt that the dyed in the wool Japanese but "Ducati curious" motorcycle rider goes through after bashing Ducati for decades, and then suddently realising he has a boner for one. What to do? Bash some more!!! Bash those feelings down all one wants, but they don't go away. It just makes that slice of humble pie harder to get down once one gets the courage to let go completely and buy a Ducati.

It's okay to let go of the pre-purchase apprehensions and allow your horizons to broaden, and to finally admit you were wrong about something you formed an opinion on based soley on what others with no more ownership experience than you said, and to free yourself from the self-limiting preconceptions that are no longer able to restrain your lust for a Ducati, and your need to grow as a motorcyclist.  

"I was once as you are now,..." Ducatis ROCK!!!

Pre-purchase apprehensions is what you seem to be missing.  Ducati on the other hand is certainly not missing this.  They are making it a point to advertise that they now require less maint than before,  I believe they are doing this to sell more motorcycles, particularly to those that may be on the fence about actually owning one.
It's not a bash or troll.  Maybe a "Honda person" is indeed truly considering purchasing a Ducati but is put off by the perceived expense and extra maint involved??
This is 'Throwing stones"?
 

[Rogue]

Who doesn't know that, especially among Ducati owners who freely chose Ducati knowing they cost more to service? A valid point cannot be made out of an emphatic reiteration of the painfully obvious and universally known facts can it?

No, it was a troll me thinks, but that's okay because I interpret it as a "cry for help" as it were, from a "Honda" person struggling with the secret desire to own a Ducati, but not yet able to get past the preconceptions and let go of the fears before taking the plunge.

OMFG! You truelly are a Ducati elitist.  

A cry for help?  More like shock at that exhorbitant cost.  But hey, if you are willing to take that big pill, go for it.  

A secret desire to own a Ducati?  PULEEZE!  To me Ducati's do not offer anything better other than exclusivity while charging more for everything.  

Since you mentioned it, why did Ducati drop the ST3/4?  Meanwhile, Honda and Triumph are able to continue to market their equivalents.  Even BMW is able to joint the frey with their F800ST.  Kind of blows away your theory that the ST3/4 is too much of a niche market for Ducati to play in.  Maybe they should ask Triumph!  I think Ducati dropped the ST3/4 because they were NOT competitive.    

[Rogue]

  Maybe a "Honda person" is indeed truly considering purchasing a Ducati but is put off by the perceived expense and extra maint involved??
This is 'Throwing stones"?
 

It is if you are a Ducati owner.  Because it is indeed difficult to justify the extra expense at maintaining Ducati's.

[Rogue]

Yes, they do cost a bit more.  But how is this news and the start of a thread?  We just pointed out all the things you can do to minimize the costs so you don't need to spend your life in Honda monotony where the only excitement is wondering when your R/R is going to fail and dreaming about the mythical updated VFR.

Honda monotony....     


Tell me how monotonous a Honda CBR1000RR would be like to ride:
154 rwhp
440 lbs. fully fuelled
All for $11,500 with nothing more to worry about than wondering if the next model will make this bike obsolete in two years! 

Also, at least we Honda guys can dream about an updated VFR because there still is a VFR to dream about!   

[Rogue]

You Ducati guys are too easy!   

All I did was point out the Cycle World long termer 1098 service, which even the magazine was a bit irritated by, and most of you got all hurt.

Now you know what it's like to defend Buell.   

I'm still waiting for people with the white masks holding torches and a rope to come to my door!   

[atadaskew]

All for $11,500 with nothing more to worry about than wondering if the next model will make this bike obsolete in two years! 

And that right there is the most damning thing you could have said!
 

Man, must really suck to feel that way while Ducati riders are just loving the bikes they're on!

[atadaskew]

Also, at least we Honda guys can dream about an updated VFR because there still is a VFR to dream about!   

No, the dream died in 2002.

[Rogue]

The current VFR is still very competitive.  Look who's in this field and you will agree.  Also, the VFR doesn't have the 2-year lifecycle issue.  

[atadaskew]

Ah Rogue, the VFR is a sweet piece. I'm messing wid ya cuz you stepped in the Duc den!

[st ryder]

.                                 Well, I'd just like to say: Go Team Red!  

Hmm, Honda calls its red "Italian Red" IIRC.  

[st ryder]

What value do you place on what makes you happy?  If a Ducati is the answer to your passion and you can afford it, then do so.  If someone else, and who probably doesn't own a Ducati, wants to complain about the maintenance costs, then it just might be envy on their part.  

Ding-ding-ding-ding...we have a winner.  
 

[st ryder]

OMFG! You truelly are a Ducati elitist.  

A cry for help?  More like shock at that exhorbitant cost.  But hey, if you are willing to take that big pill, go for it.  

A secret desire to own a Ducati?  PULEEZE!  To me Ducati's do not offer anything better other than exclusivity while charging more for everything.  

Since you mentioned it, why did Ducati drop the ST3/4?  Meanwhile, Honda and Triumph are able to continue to market their equivalents.  Even BMW is able to joint the frey with their F800ST.  Kind of blows away your theory that the ST3/4 is too much of a niche market for Ducati to play in.  Maybe they should ask Triumph!  I think Ducati dropped the ST3/4 because they were NOT competitive.    

Please describe a Ducati elitist? Is it one who feels the bike he has is the best for him, or anybody who happens to own one? The fact that you have no actual Ducati ownership experience lets us understand why you feel Ducati has nothing to offer but exclusivity, as though that were a bad thing, while charging more for everything, which are plainly not the facts for those of us who actually enjoy owning one.

Ducati dropped the ST line because they were not a big money maker/seller for them, in favour of models that made Ducati famous, ie they were never known for ST bikes, namely Superbikes, Monsters and the "classics", since they can only produce so many units a year. The ST3 was a very successfully selling model, for Ducati ST models, but too little too late. I'm not one to pay too much attention to comparos, but I'm pretty sure there was at least one that put it *above* the VFR/TRST.   The Multistrada model sells very well and most owners are completely enamoured with it, and word has it a new, GS challenging "Strada Aperta" model is not far away.

I fail to see how anybody who knows anything about Ducati ST models could say the Ducati ST models were not competitive in comparison to the VFR, TRST, and especially the F800st. The Ducati ST4s is a 160mph, 996cc superbike with side cases. That's not competitive? And besides, this takes us back to "square 1" *again*, because you have no ownership experience, and therefore you cannot understand that which Ducati has to offer, and that which those other bikes simply cannot compete with, ie style, class, and soul, which makes paying a little extra sometimes for service worth it.   Oh, excuse me, my elitist attitude is surfacing again.

Actually, I like VFRs, the 3rd version IIRC, (how many versions are there, 5?) but have held back based on the reported high costs of a valve adjustment since the engine has to be rotated in the frame to get to the rear heads, and the ongoing saga of the frying regulator rectifiers, don't traditionally have factory side cases (but are a ST bikes  ) and really, what mature gentleman wants to ride an "interceptor."  What/who am I going to intercept, and for what reason?   But at least I could get one in Italian Red.  

[st ryder]

Pre-purchase apprehensions is what you seem to be missing.  Ducati on the other hand is certainly not missing this.  They are making it a point to advertise that they now require less maint than before,  I believe they are doing this to sell more motorcycles, particularly to those that may be on the fence about actually owning one.
It's not a bash or troll.  Maybe a "Honda person" is indeed truly considering purchasing a Ducati but is put off by the perceived expense and extra maint involved??
This is 'Throwing stones"?
 

Oh I think I mentioned pre-purchase apprehensions a few times, and my advice on dealing with it if you're interested in a Ducati? Let it go man, let it go. Take a leap of faith there "Thomas" and chances are you won't regret it. That's what I did when I bought my old Harley, and my current Ducati: best ownership experiences I've had with motorcycles, yet both were *much* maligned by the Japanese bike owning,  fear mongering sheep; misery loves company don't you know.  

Oh, and a troll it was, pure and simple, unless of course, he is struggling at an intellectual level with his Ducati lust as I suspect.
 

[Dave the slave]

Orson, Desmo Demon and Mr Whippy -


Thank you... your responses were helpful and constructive!  I really appreciate it, I guess I do have the winter to save up and think about my next bike.  I think it's going to be my first Non-Japanese sportbike...  the contenders are Ducati, KTM, Aprilia, MV and BMW (maybe, we'll see about this new beemer)  Hopefully I find something that I love for under $20K... otherwise it's just a dream and I'll buy a ZX-14

I'm just ready for something new and different  

[Brad1445]

Congrats, personality cost money but pays back huge dividends.

[Orson]

Orson, Desmo Demon and Mr Whippy -

Thank you... your responses were helpful and constructive!  I really appreciate it, I guess I do have the winter to save up and think about my next bike.  I think it's going to be my first Non-Japanese sportbike...  the contenders are Ducati, KTM, Aprilia, MV and BMW (maybe, we'll see about this new beemer)  Hopefully I find something that I love for under $20K... otherwise it's just a dream and I'll buy a ZX-14

I'm just ready for something new and different  

Japanese bikes are easy...just put in the key & turn.

that's also where they begin to lose your attention. Something so perfect hardly requires any involvement from your part and your mind drifts elsewhere.

An Italian bike, with it's quirks and foibles demands your attention. You are forced to spend more time with it. Fixing...adjusting...cursing...loving.

They may not be as easy...but they will be more involving.

[JoBu]

Japanese bikes are easy...just put in the key & turn.

that's also where they begin to lose your attention. Something so perfect hardly requires any involvement from your part and your mind drifts elsewhere.

An Italian bike, with it's quirks and foibles demands your attention. You are forced to spend more time with it. Fixing...adjusting...cursing...loving.

They may not be as easy...but they will be more involving.

I agree, but only to a point.  I think the quality control has really made great strides in Italian bikes.  While I realize there are still stories of people experiencing trouble or acquiring a "lemon", there are more stories of folks who have had great luck with their bikes (or possibly less stories of people experiencing troubles).  I put on 25,000 trouble-free miles on my '99 Ducati 900SS and have yet to experience a single glitch with my '03 ST4s.  

The only advice I'd pass on is the same given to me prior to my first (very apprehensive) purchase of my Ducati.  Stick to the maintenance schedule.  He did say that with a Japanese bike, you normally had some "wiggle room" regarding adhering to preventative maintenance but if I let my scheduled maintenance slip on the Duc, I could be facing some might big repair costs.  

Best of luck with your decision, Dave.

Cheers,

Joe

PS.  I'm not sure I'd qualify some/most of the Duc owners on here as elitist...I think they are more like enthusiasts.  Just my $.02.  

[Orson]

I agree, but only to a point.  I think the quality control has really made great strides in Italian bikes.  While I realize there are still stories of people experiencing trouble or acquiring a "lemon", there are more stories of folks who have had great luck with their bikes (or possibly less stories of people experiencing troubles).  I put on 25,000 trouble-free miles on my '99 Ducati 900SS and have yet to experience a single glitch with my '03 ST4s.  

true...I've had amazingly good luck with my Guzzi. 40,000 miles before a coil broke. That could happen on any bike.

Still my Guzzi has loveable quirks, like the tachometer fogging up on humid days  

Depends on the customer really. Some get irked by the quirks and want everything to work perfectly. Me? meh. It's part of the charm  

[Desmo Demon]

An Italian bike, with it's quirks and foibles demands your attention. You are forced to spend more time with it. Fixing...adjusting...cursing...loving.

Other than a one-year electrical design on my '98 ST2 which the factory changed in '99, my ST2 has pretty much been flawless for 38k miles except for a loose clutch hub nut....which I was able to repair in a McDonald's parking lot, nearly 200 miles from home. This bike isn't babied, either.  

The 748 has 18k miles on it, and other than a couple of inherent rocker issues at the 6000-mile service, it's treated me pretty well, also.

I think the largest issues with the Ducatis, especially those with dry clutches, is that the bikes are pretty much not designed to be maintenance free. The valves are like running solid lifters in a 60's big-block Chevy.....as they wear, you need to adjust them. It's just the nature of the beast and the desmodromics seem to be one of the attractions to Ducati's bikes. The valve system was not a reason for me to buy the bike, but the more I tinker on the Ducati engines, the more I really like the mechanics of them and the principles on how they work. It's the mechanical engineer, shade-tree mechanic in me that loves this part of the bike.

Another thing are the dry clutches. Simply by design, they are supposed to wear faster and give some issues like glazed plates and squawking and squealing if you do a few hard starts or ride the clutch too much. Again, though, the shade-tree mechanic in me really likes this feature of the Ducati. I really like the idea of keeping all the clutch plate dust and particles out of my engine oil. I also like being able to do clutch maintanence or preventative maintanence without making an oily mess...heck, I don't even need to buy a gasket to do a complete clutch swap.

I like all bikes, though......it's just that the Ducati motorcycles have a weird grip on me. Don't ask me why, because I simply cannot explain it.

[st ryder]

I'm just ready for something new and different  

Some riders never reach that point, and that's cool. I did in 1998 buying my first non-Yamaha bike, a '87 BMW K75, and have never looked back at Japanese bikes since trading my 2002 FJR on a HD. I traded the HD on my ST3 and still have the  BMW. I see a Guzzi in my future, (and possibly a Buell) but it has to be the "right one" and they're tough to find here in the great white north. In the mean time, my ST3 continues to satisfy. My only regret is letting fear run my purchase decisions for as long as I let it before making "the switch." YMMV.

[canyonchaser]

I do all my own maintenance. Pretty much always have since college and working out of a tatty old motorcycle shop taught me how easy it is to do most things.

For those who think Ducati's are unreliable or require too much maintanance/service to be practical - clearly you are unable (most likely afraid) to perform any maintenance more complex than changing the oil or removing a tire.

I've owned all brands - every one, and most for over 30k miles.  I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, the most problematic bikes I've owned have always been Honda's.

While you may need to adjust the valves on a Ducati every 6000-7500 miles, that task is so surprisingly easy - probably one of the easiest valves on the planet to adjust.  Why?  Because Ducati engineered the bike to be worked on.  Adjusting the valves on a my old SuperHawk or even worse, my SV650 is a miserable chore that requires disassembling half the motorcycle.    Adjusting the valves on my old SuperSport takes about two hours - and that includes changing the belts, plugs etc.  

So if I were to take all the hours spent adjusting valves, performing regular service, on my Ducatis, and all the hours spent on an equivalent Japanese bike - say a SuperHawk for arguments sake - then I spend half as many hours working on the Ducati - making my Ducati less service oriented.

The only thing with Ducati's is that you really need to stay on top of maintenance schedules.  But on the flip side its easy - and most of the time its enjoyable.  Its how I stay active in motorcycles over the winter.  I do a full service on all my bikes every winter - regardless of mileage.

dp

[st ryder]

I do all my own maintenance. Pretty much always have since college and working out of a tatty old motorcycle shop taught me how easy it is to do most things.

For those who think Ducati's are unreliable or require too much maintanance/service to be practical - clearly you are unable (most likely afraid) to perform any maintenance more complex than changing the oil or removing a tire.

I've owned all brands - every one, and most for over 30k miles.  I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, the most problematic bikes I've owned have always been Honda's.

While you may need to adjust the valves on a Ducati every 6000-7500 miles, that task is so surprisingly easy - probably one of the easiest valves on the planet to adjust.  Why?  Because Ducati engineered the bike to be worked on.  Adjusting the valves on a my old SuperHawk or even worse, my SV650 is a miserable chore that requires disassembling half the motorcycle.    Adjusting the valves on my old SuperSport takes about two hours - and that includes changing the belts, plugs etc.  

So if I were to take all the hours spent adjusting valves, performing regular service, on my Ducatis, and all the hours spent on an equivalent Japanese bike - say a SuperHawk for arguments sake - then I spend half as many hours working on the Ducati - making my Ducati less service oriented.

The only thing with Ducati's is that you really need to stay on top of maintenance schedules.  But on the flip side its easy - and most of the time its enjoyable.  Its how I stay active in motorcycles over the winter.  I do a full service on all my bikes every winter - regardless of mileage.

dp

It really is amazing how much attention is focused on Ducati service intervals, when other bikes have much the same, using poppet valves, and they're none too cheap either. Like KTM for example. 7500 & 15K mile service intervals at 4 - 6 hours labour at a dealer for some of them. No desmos or belts AFAIK. Aprillia service ain't none too cheap nor widely spread either, some even requiring new forks seals at 6K.  Boxers require valve lash adjustment every 6k.   But everybody loves to rag on about Ducati. Go figure.    

[JoBu]

true...I've had amazingly good luck with my Guzzi. 40,000 miles before a coil broke. That could happen on any bike.

Still my Guzzi has loveable quirks, like the tachometer fogging up on humid days  

Depends on the customer really. Some get irked by the quirks and want everything to work perfectly. Me? meh. It's part of the charm  

I love to read things like that, Orson.  I honestly think that I'm going to end up with a Guzzi in the not too distant future and you, my friend, are the sole reason why I may do so.  I supposed thanks are in order, but I'm not really sure why...  

You know...the talk about "soul" and "quirks" leads me to a spin on a somewhat famous saying, "It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow".  Along those lines, for me personally, it is more fun to simply putter around on a bike with quirks, personality, etc (call it what you will) than to do so on an ultra smooth bike.  And it is equally, if not more rewarding to wick up the throttles on those same bikes.  I rode a couple of Blackbirds (fantastic bike and ultra smooth) but that ultra smooth character is what turned me away.  I know...doesn't make a lot of sense on paper.  But the visceral and aural sensations I get from triples, L-twins, V-twins, etc is what truly blows my skirt up (figure of speech - before some of you wackos get any ideas    ).  But it is those intangibles that makes riding motorcycles so enjoyable for me.  Still, I'm the first to admit that this is all quite subjective.  So...let's all just get out there and ride what makes us happy.

Cheers,

Joe

[Desmo Demon]

It really is amazing how much attention is focused on Ducati service intervals,

I think the largest difference with Ducati owners is that they seem to cheerish their bikes and WANT to take care of them. The majority of them seem overly anal about the service intervals, and I think because of this, non-Ducati owners like to harp on the intervals as a major drawback to the brand....On the other hand, I know a guy who went from a VFR to a Ducati 998 and he went 22k miles without checking his valves. He didn't change the belts or even check the belt tension, either! I had an on-going joke with him that if he didn't get at least the belts changed, I wanted first dibs on the suspension and Marchesini wheels when one of the belts broke.  

[Rogue]

I fail to see how anybody who knows anything about Ducati ST models could say the Ducati ST models were not competitive in comparison to the VFR, TRST, and especially the F800st. The Ducati ST4s is a 160mph, 996cc superbike with side cases. That's not competitive? And besides, this takes us back to "square 1" *again*, because you have no ownership experience, and therefore you cannot understand that which Ducati has to offer, and that which those other bikes simply cannot compete with, ie style, class, and soul, which makes paying a little extra sometimes for service worth it.   Oh, excuse me, my elitist attitude is surfacing again.

YOU are a Ducati elitist.  Just read up on what you're saying.  You sound like no other bikes compare to your precious Ducati.  I respect and admire the loyalty and dedication of Ducati owners.  But just because you think your bike is the best, doesn't mean others will.  And just because others do not think they way you do, doesn't mean they know nothing and are missing it.  

BTW, being competitive in the market place isn't just about performance.  It is, but then if you price yourself out of the market, hardly anybody will buy your product.  As is the case of the ST4.  The bike was too expensive.  Even when they left it up to the ST3, which they expected buyers to give up the performance of the ST4, yet still pay more for the bike than say, a Triumph Sprint ST or a VFR.  It was still too expensive and maintenance intensive compared to the competition.  That's why Ducati dropped the model because it wasn't selling well at all.  Nobody in their right mind would drop a model that is still selling well!  

   Really St Ryder.  People who ride other bikes do have as much fun as those who ride Ducati's.  Believe it or not, they are very happy, especially when it comes time to pony up the $$.  

[Rogue]

For those who think Ducati's are unreliable or require too much maintanance/service to be practical - clearly you are unable (most likely afraid) to perform any maintenance more complex than changing the oil or removing a tire.
dp

You know, not EVERYONE has the time, the tools, nor the willingness to maintain their own bikes.  You make it sound like if you don't do your own work, then you're not worthy of Ducati ownership.  

Most Japanese bikes have moved away from the major service at 7,500 miles.  I think that's a step in the right direction.  And you know what, with todays modern materials, manufacturing techniques, I would think think that major manufacturers of motorcycles can easily build bikes that do not require intensive maintenance.  The fact remains, Ducati's require twice as much maintenance as Japanese bikes.  And many already have mentioned, they are not foregiving of neglect either.  So it shouldn't be any surprise that many see this as a negative to Ducati ownership.  

[st ryder]

..You sound like no other bikes compare to your precious Ducati...

That's why I own one, so tell me, what part about owning the bike that's best for me is elitist? If I wanted another bike, I'd have bought that one, then what? I'm a Yamaha elitist, a Honda elitist? The thing is you are stereotyping me with the elitist label because Ducatis are are perceived as being expensive. If I was as exuberant about owning and riding a Hyosung as I am about my Ducati, would the term elitist even be raised, or would I be perceived as a know nothing peasant? I'm not elitist, just selective. I chose Ducati above the rest after considering all the pros and cons that come with Ducati ownership. Can you deal with that less pejoratively, or are you so threatened by the Ducati brand that you feel you must defend yourself by criticising Ducati service costs and labelling owners?      

 Really St Ryder.  People who ride other bikes do have as much fun as those who ride Ducati's.  Believe it or not, they are very happy, especially when it comes time to pony up the $$.  

And some people have always enjoyed eating hot dogs to save a few pennies over the price of steak. I mean hey, both are meat products, both fill the stomach, right, so why spend more on steak? Of course I feel that their happiness is based in the bliss of never having a steak, otherwise, I can't see how they'd be happy eating hot dogs after having a steak, by consoling themselves with the savings.

I can enjoy having a "steak" of motorcycles because motorcycling is one of my few guilty pleasures: I don't drink booze, I don't smoke anything, I don't golf, bowl, my wardrob is in constant need of renewal, and I own a Tercel. Ya, I'm a real elitist because I own a Ducati and feel it's the best bike for me.  No, I'm only an elitist in your eyes because of your negative preconceptions, which is what this whole thread is about.

Just go and buy one man, stop torturing yourself.

[atadaskew]

can we replace this with an oil thread?

[Orson]

just as fighter pilots are the military elite, motorcycling has their elite.

grunts need to accept it as a fact of life  

[Rogue]

No, I'm only an elitist in your eyes because of your negative preconceptions, which is what this whole thread is about.

Just go and buy one man, stop torturing yourself.

This thread was all about the ridiculously high price of maintenance Cycle World paid for their 1098, which even they agreed was steep.  You then turned it into a Ducati is better and those who don't own one don't know any better.  Well, that's about what I expected and you made that come true.  

If Ducati made a bike I like, I would consider it.  But they don't.  Unfortunately for Ducati, there are other makers who make bikes that are just as good or better for less.  And it's funny that you made the Ducati analogy by comparing a steak to a hotdog.  I think that is a perfect example of your elitism.  There are plenty of bikes that is the equal or superior to Ducatis products so your analogy is a poor one.  You definitely fit the stereotype of a blind Ducati owner.  

[rockinjc]

Man my rear tire sure needs replacing... Damn Ducs!

[canyonchaser]

You know, not EVERYONE has the time, the tools, nor the willingness to maintain their own bikes.  You make it sound like if you don't do your own work, then you're not worthy of Ducati ownership.  

Most Japanese bikes have moved away from the major service at 7,500 miles.  I think that's a step in the right direction.  And you know what, with todays modern materials, manufacturing techniques, I would think think that major manufacturers of motorcycles can easily build bikes that do not require intensive maintenance.  The fact remains, Ducati's require twice as much maintenance as Japanese bikes.  And many already have mentioned, they are not foregiving of neglect either.  So it shouldn't be any surprise that many see this as a negative to Ducati ownership.  

You know what, Harleys don't need any valve adjustments, have no belts, no coolant to replace, not even a chain to lube, or shaft to change the oil in.  By your argument, they would be the best motorcycle!  Perhaps they would be the best motorcycle for you.

I get tired of people telling me that Ducati's are junk because they require a bit of maintenance.  I believe that Ducati (as most European bikes, particularly Italian brands) are riders bikes.  They come with better suspension, better brakes and more usable power. Which is okay,  most Americans buy their hamburger based on how big it is for the lowest price, and most American motorcyclists buy motorcycles based on the numbers in the spec sheet - regardless of how that burger may taste, or how those numbers equate to actual riding.

dp

[Rogue]

You know what, Harleys don't need any valve adjustments, have no belts, no coolant to replace, not even a chain to lube, or shaft to change the oil in.  By your argument, they would be the best motorcycle!  Perhaps they would be the best motorcycle for you.

I never said the best motorcycle needed no maintenance.  In fact, I never defined the best motorcycle.  So I have no clue where you pulled that from. 

I get tired of people telling me that Ducati's are junk because they require a bit of maintenance.  I believe that Ducati (as most European bikes, particularly Italian brands) are riders bikes.  They come with better suspension, better brakes and more usable power. Which is okay,  most Americans buy their hamburger based on how big it is for the lowest price, and most American motorcyclists buy motorcycles based on the numbers in the spec sheet - regardless of how that burger may taste, or how those numbers equate to actual riding.
dp

Nobody here said Ducati's are junk because they require maintenance. 

And if you believe that most European bikes and particularly Italian brands are rider's bikes because they have better suspension/brakes/more useable power, you are dreaming.  Take the standard models and compare them to their Japanese brands and they all come with similar levels of equipment.  In fact, if  you were to take entry level bikes from Ducati, they will come with entry level equipment as well, just like their Japanese counterparts.

"Rider's bikes".......      Us poor folks riding around in Japanese bikes don't know jack-shit about riding.  We don't really enjoy all the riding we do because our machines are so inferior. 

My goodness!  The elitism here is shocking.  I always thought it was a myth but you guys are making it all true. 

[swimmer]

26k between valve checks?  Good luck with that.

*clicks the ignore button*

The engine in the Kaw 650R and Versys is also rated at 26k mile valve inspection intervals for the Euro models.  The US model is 15k (or 12k). Not sure why the difference but its true.  I did my first inspection (myself) at 15k and I am not planning on doing the next one at 30k miles.  That's nearly once a year at the recommended interval and that's not going to happen.

[Orson]

 

My goodness!  The elitism here is shocking.  I always thought it was a myth but you guys are making it all true. 

you make elitism sound like a bad thing  

trust us. It's great to be elite  

[Rincewind]

The engine in the Kaw 650R and Versys is also rated at 26k mile valve inspection intervals for the Euro models.  The US model is 15k (or 12k). Not sure why the difference but its true.

Probably cause they measure in km's instead of miles.  26,000 kilometers = 16,156 miles  

Really enjoying this thread, btw, particularly canyonchasers comments on ease of maintenance on the Duc's.  Someday maybe I will own more than just a Ducati shirt.  

[atadaskew]

Like I mentioned earlier, when I bought my St4s I shopped the VFR.
I paid much less than the $15k msrp due to year end sales.  But let's see the difference it has compared to the VFR.  Ohlins rear shock, fully adjustable front forks.  Brembo brakes. Marchesini wheels. SS brake lines. Ride height adjuster. Luggage.
Add all that stuff to a VFR and you'd be waay over the price of the Duc (let alone what I paid for it).
And on top of that, you'd still have a fatter and slower bike!  
Yah, they don't make em anymore as Ducati's business plan changed to make just sportbikes, monsters and sportclassics. So just pick one up used and see what you're missing.  Hint, it's not wondering when your RR is going to puke.

[vnsfxr]

My Ducati has lower yearly maintenance costs because I have a vanilla V-4, (ST1300), as my mile muncher.

Riding either bike puts me in the elitist category in my mind  

[JoBu]

Riding either bike puts me in the elitist category in my mind  

   No doubt...I'm an "Elitist Hooligan" everytime I swing a leg over my Speed Triple.  

Cheers,

Joe

[TheCloser]

What surprises me a great deal is the one word that no I do not think has been mentioned in this thread and that is PASSION!   As a Buell Lightning owner, I check the oil level, adjust the tire pressure and ride vigorously.  Very simple, very enjoyable, and very, very fun.

However, my heart beats to the Ducati Drum and I am proud to be a Ducati aficionado!   I love the brand, their bikes, their gear, the whole thing.  The 2009 Streetfighter S rocks my world in a way that is definitely not suitable for a family website!  Does this make me elitist?  Does this make me foolish because I will one day pay more for a Ducati than for a brand from either Japan, Germany, or America?  Absolutely NOT, because Ducati stirs my passion and that's more than enough for me.  There are many great bikes and some pretty crappy ones out there, but motocycling is passion and not transportation for me, so choosing the brand (Ducati) that stirs my soul is more than enough reason for me to lay out my hard earned cash regardless of the quantity.

[Brad1445]

Nice Post

[swimmer]

Probably cause they measure in km's instead of miles.  26,000 kilometers = 16,156 miles  

Really enjoying this thread, btw, particularly canyonchasers comments on ease of maintenance on the Duc's.  Someday maybe I will own more than just a Ducati shirt.  

Nope the interval they use is = 26k miles in the instances where they use km.

[JoBu]

However, my heart beats to the Ducati Drum and I am proud to be a Ducati aficionado!   I love the brand, their bikes, their gear, the whole thing.  The 2009 Streetfighter S rocks my world in a way that is definitely not suitable for a family website!  Does this make me elitist?  Does this make me foolish because I will one day pay more for a Ducati than for a brand from either Japan, Germany, or America?  Absolutely NOT, because Ducati stirs my passion and that's more than enough for me.  There are many great bikes and some pretty crappy ones out there, but motocycling is passion and not transportation for me, so choosing the brand (Ducati) that stirs my soul is more than enough reason for me to lay out my hard earned cash regardless of the quantity.

   Passion describes very well...nice post.

Cheers,

Joe

[st ryder]

This thread was all about the ridiculously high price of maintenance Cycle World paid for their 1098, which even they agreed was steep.  You then turned it into a Ducati is better and those who don't own one don't know any better.  Well, that's about what I expected and you made that come true.  

If Ducati made a bike I like, I would consider it.  But they don't.  Unfortunately for Ducati, there are other makers who make bikes that are just as good or better for less.  And it's funny that you made the Ducati analogy by comparing a steak to a hotdog.  I think that is a perfect example of your elitism.  There are plenty of bikes that is the equal or superior to Ducatis products so your analogy is a poor one.  You definitely fit the stereotype of a blind Ducati owner.  

This thread started with you trying to discredit Ducati whom you infer is being misleading, Ducati owners whom you infer are stupid, and Ducati engineering which you infer is inadequate, and then you end-up calling me names because I happen to disagree with you. Reread your OP below:

Lately, Ducati has been spreading word that their bikes requires "less maintenance" than before.  I have even read somewhere that it is up to 50% less.  Heck!  So has anyone read the long term review of the Ducati 1098 in the latest Cycle World mag?

They just did the 7,500 mile service on the bike at a dealership in Socal:   $729 parts and labor!  

That service includes:
Valve inspection
Oil/filter change
Replace Spark plugs ($34 ea.)
Timing Belt Check
Re-set throttle Position Sensor

Labor rate is $90/hour.  Fairly standard in SoCal.  I had my car serviced at an independent shop and they charged the same rate.

I know Ducati's are sweet bikes but that ladies and gents is pretty fooking steep every 7,500 miles!  It would probably be easier to swallow every 15k miles but about twice a year?  It's a V-twin so shouldn't it be less?  Ouch!

I'm sure that my VFR would cost the same at 15k miles if I had the dealer do all the work.  Even then, I still think that is fooking ridiculous for a Honda!  And I can just hear some of you:  if you can't afford to pay, don't play.  I CAN afford to pay but that doesn't mean I'm that stupid!  In a day when we can get high performance automobiles that put out mega-horsepower yet don't pay that much every year in maintenance, they can make bikes that are similar!  For example, how about 50k miles spark plugs and coolant?  hydraulic roller-type valvetrains that don't go out of spec?  Self-resetting TPS sensors?  Why does Ducati insist on belt-driven cam drives that require constant checks and replacements?

You really need to buy one bro.   I mean, hey, if Ducati gets this much of your attention and energy just by you looking at them and reading about them, imagine how enthralled you'll be by actually owning one.  

[st ryder]

What surprises me a great deal is the one word that no I do not think has been mentioned in this thread and that is PASSION!   As a Buell Lightning owner, I check the oil level, adjust the tire pressure and ride vigorously.  Very simple, very enjoyable, and very, very fun.

However, my heart beats to the Ducati Drum and I am proud to be a Ducati aficionado!   I love the brand, their bikes, their gear, the whole thing.  The 2009 Streetfighter S rocks my world in a way that is definitely not suitable for a family website!  Does this make me elitist?  Does this make me foolish because I will one day pay more for a Ducati than for a brand from either Japan, Germany, or America?  Absolutely NOT, because Ducati stirs my passion and that's more than enough for me.  There are many great bikes and some pretty crappy ones out there, but motocycling is passion and not transportation for me, so choosing the brand (Ducati) that stirs my soul is more than enough reason for me to lay out my hard earned cash regardless of the quantity.

Elitist!  

[Orson]

Elitist!  

Not that there's anything wrong with that!

[dagor6]

It's like owning a Ferrari over a Corvette or a Stealth. Respective owners can argue stats and featues ad-nauseum, but the biggest difference is intangible. Anyone who cannot understand, can (and probaboy does):

Drink wine out of a box.

Buy their clothes at Walmart.

Play a Squier guitar.

Celebrate something by having a Steakhouse Burger.

Wear a Sears suit to an important job interview.

I hate that kind of thinking, I buy Ducati's because they're better. It's the kind of thinking that kept ducati making 749/999 POS's for so long, thinking it was "good enough" for a ferrari. Sorry, only one ducati I've ever owned reminds me of a ferrari, and it's not intangible. It's kick-you-in-the-nuts and come-to-jesus tangible. It's wanting to give the bike a hug and a kiss every time you get off of it.

First of all, that bill seems high, google and there's a great article by someone as to the correct prices and what dealers try to deviate. 90/hr is reasonable for good work, it's high because they do so little volume and have such poor parts margins that they're barely in business.

The valves are a work of art and vastly superior to Japanese valves in terms of high-speed performance when perfectly adjusted, see: MotoGP. For the street they are only a liability. The belt drive systems sucks and the valves constantly get out of alignment, which causes the bike to run rough and/or stall. It's pretty time consuming to shim the valves and if you do it wrong, well god help you.

My advice is this, air cooled 2v head, ride it 10K miles minimum between adjustments, don't hit the rev-limiter (the surge worsens the valve shims). You can probably go 12,500 to 15,000 between intervals and pay 300 for the service. Water cooled 4V superbike engines, follow the book or push to 10K. Be sensitive to running rough as being valves out of alignment.

Ducati makes great bikes that are vastly superior to Jap bikes, let me know when the Japanese factories build a monster or a hypermotard or a multistrada. In general the Jap bikes are made better, nicer, cheaper. But they won't build a lot of the great bikes Ducati will. It's reasonable to say a GSX-R1000 is a better bike than a 1098. But what compares to a monster that's even close? All that Suzuki crap doesn't even come close.

[ducatist2]

well, i will opine on this.

have a 98 ducati st2 and a 2005 hayabusa.

with re: to ducati maintenance hassles the most tedious part of it is getting the fairing off and back on.

truth is if you run synthetic oil (i run mobil1 car oil in all my things) and don't beat the engine too hard the valves will stay in spec to maybe 40K miles after the first adjustment. (i change oil on bikes every 2000-2500mi, with new filter every 3rd oil change)

the belts are easy to change and i think i've got about 15k on mine now (i have 35k on the ducati now).

the only problems i've had with the ducati is i had to update the charging system and changed the clutch slave cylinder to aftermarket, and changed to updated cs sprocket keeper.

put brake pads on it recently, a set of plugs, and another set of tires. it doesn't use oil, starts and runs good, and is just as reliable as a jap bike.

but it is a slow, boutique poser type bike. it is no way near as well engineered as my hayabusa which has been totally maintenance free other than changing oil. and there is no comparison in terms of performance.

i would say a duc is for someone who is interested in the mechanical aspects of riding bikes and enjoys fiddling with them. if you don't the duc is probably not the best bike to own. this is my 2nd ducati, you do have to monkey around with them to keep them running good.

[Desmo Demon]

but it is a slow, boutique poser type bike. it is no way near as well engineered as my hayabusa which has been totally maintenance free other than changing oil. and there is no comparison in terms of performance.

I'm guessing you must be talking about straight line performance.....

[st ryder]

...but it is a slow, boutique poser type bike. it is no way near as well engineered as my hayabusa which has been totally maintenance free other than changing oil. and there is no comparison in terms of performance....

Apples and oranges comparo, but tell me, why isn't the Busa a poser bike?  

[atadaskew]

The St2 is a slow bike compared to an St3/St4/St4s.

Unless you pump it up like some have done....

[Desmo Demon]

The St2 is a slow bike compared to an St3/St4/St4s.

Unless you pump it up like some have done....

The 3's and 4's may have more get-up-and-go in a straight line, but that extra power doesn't really help in a curve. That is where, comparing stock-to-stock, the suspension of the ST4s really shines.....and even the early ST2's with more tunable suspensions do better than the 4's without adjustable suspension.

Usually, it's all about the rider, not the bike.

[atadaskew]

I agree with you on all points.

[Rogue]

 Absolutely NOT, because Ducati stirs my passion and that's more than enough for me.  There are many great bikes and some pretty crappy ones out there, but motocycling is passion and not transportation for me, so choosing the brand (Ducati) that stirs my soul is more than enough reason for me to lay out my hard earned cash regardless of the quantity.

Yet you have not plunked ANY of your hard earned cash on a Ducati have you?  

I'm waiting with anticipation because you keep talking the talk but haven't really walked the walk.  

[Rogue]

You really need to buy one bro.   I mean, hey, if Ducati gets this much of your attention and energy just by you looking at them and reading about them, imagine how enthralled you'll be by actually owning one.  

I much prefer Aprilia over Ducati.  Their owners are not so blinded yet their motorcycles are very innovative and reasonably prices in the US.    

[IvanJ]

I much prefer Aprilia over Ducati.  Their owners are not so blinded yet their motorcycles are very innovative and reasonably prices in the US.    

I own an Aprilia and a Duc.  The Duc is much more of a thoroughbred.  The Aprilia is like the Italian version of a Honda.... its very comfortable, requires less maintenance, its heavier, it provides less precise handling, the engine is not as responsive, and its not as exciting to ride.

[atypical1]

I much prefer Aprilia over Ducati.  Their owners are not so blinded yet their motorcycles are very innovative and reasonably prices in the US.    

Reminds me of Buell and VFR owners. We all drink some flavor of kool aid.

james

[burnergold2B]

The 3's and 4's may have more get-up-and-go in a straight line, but that extra power doesn't really help in a curve. That is where, comparing stock-to-stock, the suspension of the ST4s really shines.....and even the early ST2's with more tunable suspensions do better than the 4's without adjustable suspension.

Usually, it's all about the rider, not the bike.

Dude, nice stable.

[Rogue]

We all drink some flavor of kool aid.

james

Absolutely.  Case in point is this thread right here.  

[atadaskew]

I much prefer Aprilia over Ducati.  

No you don't.

[Desmo Demon]

Dude, nice stable.

Thanks.....for my wife and me, there is no "one" bike for us. We value variety because each day our mood or our desintation (or lack of one) may differ. If I had to choose one bike to keep and the others had to go, I'd keep the Ducati ST2. It is a bike that does everything for me quite well.

[Rogue]

No you don't.

And you know this because....

[burnergold2B]

Thanks.....for my wife and me, there is no "one" bike for us. We value variety because each day our mood or our desintation (or lack of one) may differ. If I had to choose one bike to keep and the others had to go, I'd keep the Ducati ST2. It is a bike that does everything for me quite well.

Right on, we're nearly in the same boat, stable-wise. Very cool.

[atadaskew]

And you know this because....

It's inconceivable!
 

[Rogue]

Get outta here!  Seriously, I do prefer Aprilia over Ducati with or without the conceited Ducait owners.  

[burnergold2B]

 with or without the conceited Ducait owners.  

Bahh, you're just jealous you never had any style!?  

[atadaskew]

Get outta here!  Seriously, I do prefer Aprilia over Ducati with or without the conceited Ducait owners.  

No you don't.

[prince_ruben]

I read a few posts and....

I think the valve service schedule for Ducati desmodromic valve train is over exaggerated. I've owned 2 Ducatis'; both averaging 10k miles/year.
I've performed valve checks on two bikes covering a total of 39k miles and once each the valves were out of spec.

Another interesting point is that I recently took valve clearance measurements, found they were out of "Ducatis' spec" and dropped it off at a dealer (withholding that I took measurements AND triple checked). They returned the bike to me and told me the valves were within spec! I asked what the valve clearances were and he couldn't remember!

I've also accumulated 20k miles on an timing belts and replaced them only because they had signs of wear. In the end, It'd be wise to learn to service your motorcycle yourself. Become familiar with your bike so you don't have to run to a dealer when little things happen. Besides, learning things yourself increases confidence and instills within one that your personal time is worth the $90/hour some shops bill.

Besides, you need to save your dough for all the interesting aftermarket bits available!

R.



"check" valves

[ZED]

Some good points, but the moral of that story is you took it to a crappy dealer that wasn't ethical.  Either that or your mechanical skills aren't what you think they are, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as many dealers have really crappy service departments. 

I don't actually subscribe to a particular interval for a number of things.  It's all about how the bike is running.  I also have a really good dealer which I trust, so when it's not running right, it goes in.  When it comes back, it's exactly how it should be.

Now, we do have a fleet of 7 motorcycles plus other antiques so any maintenance that we can have someone else reliably do is a bonus!


Welcome aboard by the way.  What color is your monster?  I really like the tri-color ones.  My wife's is silver, but it's getting changed soon.

[prince_ruben]

Some good points, but the moral of that story is you took it to a crappy dealer that wasn't ethical.  Either that or your mechanical skills aren't what you think they are, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as many dealers have really crappy service departments. 

I don't actually subscribe to a particular interval for a number of things.  It's all about how the bike is running.  I also have a really good dealer which I trust, so when it's not running right, it goes in.  When it comes back, it's exactly how it should be.

Now, we do have a fleet of 7 motorcycles plus other antiques so any maintenance that we can have someone else reliably do is a bonus!


Welcome aboard by the way.  What color is your monster?  I really like the tri-color ones.  My wife's is silver, but it's getting changed soon.

I'm not buying into the "scheduled" maintenance any longer either.
Here's my S4. Modified to hell and still under construction.

[canyonchaser]

I don't actually subscribe to a particular interval for a number of things.  It's all about how the bike is running.  I also have a really good dealer which I trust, so when it's not running right, it goes in.  When it comes back, it's exactly how it should be.

When it comes to valve adjustments thats playing with fire.  Even when out of "spec" they'll run fine, for quite some time even. But when valves are tight, they are not closing all the way, allowing hot gasses/exploding fuel past the valve - eroding the valve seat and damaging the valve seal.  The longer the valve is left tight, the more irreparable damage you are doing to your head.

I've seen a Ducati that went over 50k miles without a single bit of maintenance - he only brought it in because one of the belts broke. The bike still ran fine, but I can't imagine it would have for much longer.  The valve seats and valve face was most completely eroded away and its amazing that the valve guide seals were sealing as well as they were.

dp

[ZED]

I was meaning to imply that just because they say you can go x before such and such servicing, doesn't mean you should.  Maybe I wasn't obvious enough.  Sorry for the confusion

Just because my WRX has valve check intervals of 26,000miles doesn't mean I'm going to wait that long.  My Ducati tends to go in about every 10,000km or so.  Does it need it then?  Yes it does, I can feel the differences.  Do I know when the valves or doohickey are out on my KLR?  Yes I do and the adjustment makes a difference.  My Z1000 is in with an independent mechanic that I trust (I'm too busy to deal with it myself right at the moment).  I expect that I have a tight exhaust valve.

If you listen your machinery, you can come to learn their language.  They will tell you what is happening.  It comes in the form of noise, feel, temperament, exhaust, milage, etc.  That is why I think it is best in general to do ones own maintenance such as valve checks.  It helps learn the language.  As John Muir said; "Come kindly to terms with your ass, for it bears you.  However, if a person has no feel for the machine, or patience to learn it, then a person should likely take it in somewhere very often.  If a person can't 'hear' what the machine is telling them, then they will have no warning and issues can certainly creep up before their 'scheduled' maintenance interval.

[prince_ruben]

If you listen your machinery, you can come to learn their language.  They will tell you what is happening.  It comes in the form of noise, feel, temperament, exhaust, milage, etc.  That is why I think it is best in general to do ones own maintenance such as valve checks.  

+1