Riding on the edge

[14kmtnman]

A question or 2 for all of you. Excluding any hard parts scrapping, how do you know how close to the edge of the tire you are when cornering? What are some of the signs of getting close to/or being on the edge of the curved, road part of the tire? What happens if you go over that edge?

[Mr Sunshine]

Interesting question.

Until you have ridden and crossed over the edge for yourself...you won't actually know what it is like.  You aren't going to be able to sit there at the time and go "um...this and this and this is happening so I must be on the edge".

This is where seat time is critical.

As to what happens when you go over the edge...you crash.  Pretty simple actually.  Now if you go slightly over the edge slowly you can recover.  This is one reason why it is important to gently tap the edge instead of slamming into the wall.  



Edit:  Ok I need to stop scanning.  I didn't see the words "of the tire" in the original post.  That's what I get for looking at this stuff at work.  

[Windblown]

Riding off the edge of your tire is not very easy to do on the street unless a) You're pulling serious lean angles and not getting off the seat. B) have the wrong size tire on the rim.

What happens when you ride past the edge?  If only by a little, basically nothin but the further past the edge you go the less contact patch you have, so at some point you are going to loose traction but there are too many variables to make a concrete "It will happen here" type comment.

Watch your rear tire wear. If you start to see evidence that you're running past the edge (rounding of the edge) then it's time to fix your form, lighten-up on your corner speed, or get a different tire.  

[vguy]

After your pegs (stock) start scrapping, you still have a ways to go.
However, by the time you're over that far you should have the experience to know your limitations.

The street/back roads are very dangerous as they have oil, leaves, sand, trees and other vehicles coming at you. Not a place to ride to that extreme.

I rarely scrap my pegs on the street, but have torn off my gear shifter more than once on the track.

[JoelCool]

I can't get close to what my bike will do.  I'm too dang slow... way too slow.  I do wear the entire tire, but there's a lot more leanin' the bike will do before the traction goes away.

[Hotbrakes]

You stop turning is a good sign.  There will also be a sudden feeling of weightlessness.  Also known as sliding which can result in a crash.  

Think about the contact patch of the tire.  Sport tires are designed to have the most contact on the sides and are designed to flex (if inflated properly) to maintain this patch.  If you somehow exceed this you are crashing.  A few months ago I got my front tire to the edge (indicated by the wear marks or chicken strip), it was sliding at that point.  Luckily a quick bar input reaction plus the downhill part of the turn flattened out which allowed the front to regain traction and pull out.  For a split second I was not having fun anymore.

+1 on hanging off.  When you reach the edge of the tire and are trying to push past it a sequence of events takes place- tire flexes more; tire starts to give; rider reacts or not (crash), reaction can be straightening out slightly, ever so gently slowing down, increased body lean, or a combination of these; then crash.

Hope this answers your question.  Bottomline is that your absence at the corner exit will be a good sign you rode on the edge of the tire.

[Ramming Speed]

Learn the feel by riding in the dirt on a small, low power dual purpose bike.  Even better is to attend American Supercamp.

The cost of dumping a large street bike may well exceed the cost of said dual purpose bike.

The cost of dumping my 1982 XT200 on the lawn at jogging speed is nothing, the knowledge and skills gained is great.  

[dagor6]

It slides or tucks and requires an extremely quick move to get it back.

You don't ever want to get that close on the street, there's a normal limit to the tire, but long riding, heat cycling, who-knows-what PSI and random road conditions have huge effects on that stuff.

[JonS]

It is very unlikely that you can lean the bike past the tire edge, unless you are falling down. Personally, I use my shoulder as the leading edge when I am turning aggressively. My foot pegs rarely touch down, but I still get around at a brisk pace. It is also important to keep you weight as far forward as possible.

[county]

It is very unlikely that you can lean the bike past the tire edge, unless you are falling down.

Yeah, I don't think it can be done.

[Windblown]

Yeah, I don't think it can be done.

On many Sport-Touring rigs it can't.  With a single rider (170 lbs) and a fresh tire (before wear started to modify the profile) my FJR would start scrapping pegs just before it got to the edge of the rear tire.

[DmCole]

best advice is to go to a track school, use their equipment, It is a good place to push the limit
I have done 2, where I was starting to slide the tires though a (at about 80 mph) corners
I know from being there ,that I will never try to reach this on the street, to many hazard, with a different outcome if you crash(at the track, Ambulance is waiting)

well worth the cost

[Busy Little Whiner]

how do you know how close to the edge of the tire you are when cornering? What are some of the signs of getting close to/or being on the edge of the curved, road part of the tire? What happens if you go over that edge?

After a trackday the edge of my tire shows little triangles of wear from going over the edge... on the seat
of my pants it feels like little oscillations...

[Desmo Demon]

how do you know how close to the edge of the tire you are when cornering?  

Thousands and thousands of mountain twisty road riding. "Learning" ones bike is the key.

What are some of the signs of getting close to/or being on the edge of the curved, road part of the tire? What happens if you go over that edge?

Signs are a simple three-step process......

1) dragging a knee.....
2) dragging a hardpart......
3) then sliding down the road.

 

What I did/do quite often, especially when on a different tire that has a different profile, or I am on a bike I'm not used to, I keep an eye on my tires. If you have tires that are worn to the edge, or you want to check how you are riding that day while on older tires, you can get a silver or gold Sharpie permanent marker and color a small part on the edge of your tire. As you ride and you think you are leaning it over fairly well, monitor your progress as the coloring starts to get worn off.

Also.....if you sit upright in the seat and have no chicken strips or are grinding away hardparts, start leaning off your seat and watch your chicken strip reappear.....eventhough you may actually be riding FASTER than you were when dragging hardpart.  

[scottzilla]

A question or 2 for all of you. Excluding any hard parts scrapping, how do you know how close to the edge of the tire you are when cornering? What are some of the signs of getting close to/or being on the edge of the curved, road part of the tire? What happens if you go over that edge?

I think there are so many variables that come in to play prior to riding past the edge of a tire that frankly, you will not get there!  You are more likely to lose traction before actually riding past the edge.  
If you rode through a corner at the same speed, same steady throttle, etc.-over and over-each time leaning more & more, eventually you will step right over the edge.  However, increase speed by 10mph and you could overwhelm available traction and lose traction before reaching the absolute edge of the tires.  
Another example would be a good racer getting in to a corner a bit too hot.  In order to maintain corner speed while not killing exit speed, more lean angle can allow the racer to sit on the correct line long enough maintain exit drive, rather than running wide, for example.  Of course, this is risky!

In simple terms, when you crash mid corner you are, for a very brief moment, riding past the edge of the tires.

[motoguy128]

Riding past the edge of traction isn't a great idea on the street because varying conditions make it a moving target.  One moment your AT the limit, the next you could be PAST.  

On the track however, the tires at the limits of traction will begin to slide.  If managed properly you can ride a 2 wheel drift.  But go past the limits, and your'e sliding on the ground.  As mentioned above, the actual limits can be limited by ground clearance (which is why you lean off) and/or limited by the tires, bike and set-up.

Finiding those limits is exciting and a rewarding experience... but can certianly have it's pitfalls.  I know one of the best expereinces I've had is riding in rainy conditons during a trackday.  Feeling the sensation of hydroplaning at triple digit speeds and letting the bike dance around in the puddles helped build confidence.


The best way to safely get a feel for controlling a bike at the limits of traction is to ride off road.  Get a dual sport and explore the gravel backroads.  Whack the throttle on corner exits and let it slide around, use some rear brake to back it into the turn.  It's all good fun.  If your a little intimidated, start out with a bicycle and use the rear brake liberally on grass to get a feel for controlling a slide on 2 wheels.

[ajf]

Lots of good advice in this thread regarding riding in the dirt or spending time on the track.

I disagree that it's a good idea to depend on some mechanical indicator of traction, such as dragging footpegs or width of chicken strips.  Conditions on the street are variable, and what gives you a big margin on one day in one corner might have you sliding on another.

I read traction continuously while riding the twisties, using the throttle on corner exits.  While still fully leaned over, I roll on the gas smoothly and gradually, feeling for the point where the rear begins to slip.  If the tire can take a fair bit of power without spinning, my speed at mid-corner must have been well below the traction limit (which is where I want to be).  If I get a hint of the rear end stepping out, I back off my speed on the next corner.  This is low risk - the road is straightening out and I'm starting to lift the bike out of full lean by the time any slide appears, so recovery is straightforward as long as you know not to snap off the throttle.  If I can add a lot of gas, it means I can safely raise my corner entry speed.

[2RR2NV]

After your pegs (stock) start scrapping, you still have a ways to go.
However, by the time you're over that far you should have the experience to know your limitations.

The street/back roads are very dangerous as they have oil, leaves, sand, trees and other vehicles coming at you. Not a place to ride to that extreme.

I rarely scrap my pegs on the street, but have torn off my gear shifter more than once on the track.

hmmm, i'd have to add .. every bike is different. why do i say that?  cause of my busa...  i had it scrape the front fairing and muffler at road america, but my peg never touched. hmmm... i checked it a few times cause i had different people think that it should of touched and i had to show em. yep, clean as a whistle.

[dagor6]

After a trackday the edge of my tire shows little triangles of wear from going over the edge... on the seat
of my pants it feels like little oscillations...

WTF? I've never seen that before in my life, that looks scary as hell. It also looks by the spread that it's rebound based, my guess is you're cranking the bike way over on semi-track tires and then you're getting a rebound bounce that's unloading the tire a little and causing it to slip and catch.

Scary.

[2RR2NV]

Signs are a simple three-step process......

1) dragging a knee.....
2) dragging a hardpart......
3) then sliding down the road.

 

dang it.  i missed that step on my 750. now i gotta go back and try again. oh  wait...nm. i'd rather keep my broken ankle somewhat healed up.  

[Busy Little Whiner]

WTF? I've never seen that before in my life, that looks scary as hell. It also looks by the spread that it's rebound based, my guess is you're cranking the bike way over on semi-track tires and then you're getting a rebound bounce that's unloading the tire a little and causing it to slip and catch.

Scary.

It looks scary but doesn't feel scary... but this was scary... my RS3 Rennsport cold tire slide on the perverted pavement...

[dagor6]

That's a pretty standard cold tire slide there, on the front I'd figure you'd be sliding down the pavement.

You sure collect these things!

[Busy Little Whiner]

That's a pretty standard cold tire slide there, on the front I'd figure you'd be sliding down the pavement.

You sure collect these things!

Slide occurred post apex which is impossible to slide the front... in fact you can lift the front in a wheelie
and still stay on the gas leaned over...

[Hotbrakes]

BLS- Is that a Duc wheel on a Honda swingarm?

[scottzilla]

BLS- Is that a Duc wheel on a Honda swingarm?

The RC45 has a single sided swingarm, like the Duc.

[Busy Little Whiner]

BLS- Is that a Duc wheel on a Honda swingarm?

Nope... 3 spoke Brembo Duc wheel won't fit Honda axle... thats a magnesium Marchesini specially for the RC45...