New rider, new to the forum, w/ heated gear questions

[cmthmpsn]

Hello,

I've perused several threads here about heated gear and still have some questions.

First, let me introduce myself. I'm a fairly new rider, having bought my first bike only this past August when gas was too expensive to drive my car. I'm riding a 2008 Yamaha Majesty 395cc scooter. I had wanted an actual motorcycle, but after taking a motorcycle safety class, I learned I'm just not coordinated enough to shift (I can't drive a stick-shift car, either   ), but I want freeway capability, so I got this maxi-scooter. I'm almost always now riding instead of taking my car (unless there's a possibility of icy roads, rain, or I need to haul too much stuff for the bike). I work the graveyard shift, so I'm riding in cooler temperatures for much more of the year than daytime riders.

I have purchased the Synergy pants and gloves from my local Yamaha store and am overall satisfied with them. My thumbs seem to not receive any heat, and sometimes I still feel the cold from the handlebar penetrating the palms of the gloves, but I've discovered that a very thin, very cheap pair of glove liners seem to help distribute the heat more evenly. And I sometimes wish the Synergy pants were full pants instead of just chaps because the backs of my legs get cold, too. Now that I've bought leathers, instead of just GoreTex bicycle rain pants, to wear over the Synergy pants, even the backs of my legs aren't feeling cold anymore, either.

Here's where I have problems, though. Before I bought my leather jacket, I was wearing my ski jacket, and my arms and body core were nice and toasty. But the ski jacket doesn't give me any crash protection, and the leather jacket does. The leather jacket is warm enough down to 40F, is wind resistant, so I'm not feeling wind chill, etc., but the leather itself seems to conduct cold through to me when the temps hover near 30F, even when I'm wearing 3 layers beneath it: long underwear, long-sleeve t-shirt, and sweatshirt. I have a Polartec fleece jacket (issued by the US Army) that I thought I would try to wear under the jacket as a warmer layer, but the sleeves of the leather jacket are too snug to get over the fleece jacket unless I take out the elbow armor, which would defeat the purpose of wearing leathers for crash protection.

I'm looking at getting the Synergy (or some other brand) heated jacket liner, but I don't think my bike battery can handle the load of the full heated system. The specs for my bike say the battery has a capacity of 8.0 amps. The gloves use 2.1 amps, the pants are 3.8 amps, and the jacket is 6.7 amps. Unless I'm forgetting things from my college physics class, it's only simple addition to get the total current drawn from the battery, so the whole Synergy system would want to draw 12.6 amps, which is WAY more than the 8.0 amp output of my battery!! I'm sure they wouldn't market the whole head-to-toe heated system if there weren't any bikes capable of putting out that much amperage, but my bike isn't that big.

Is there a way to draw more amps from my battery? Can I put a bigger battery in my bike, maybe? Or would a bigger battery do bad things to the native electronics of the bike? Would a bigger battery even physically fit in my bike?

Should I just go back to wearing my ski jacket when it's really, really cold? Is there another solution? What about a heated jacket liner that uses its own rechargeable battery instead of running off the bike's power?

Thanks in advance for advice,
Christina

[Cricket1]

Christina:

Welcome to STN!

You are right to wear the leather with padding for crash protection, and heated gear is the way to go so you can stay comfy and not have to wear so many layers.

The battery's amperage is not really what you need to know, but the alternator's output is. Check your manual and see what it puts out, then see what the current drain is for your headlight, taillight, etc. The difference is what you have "left over" to run accessories. BMWs and many larger touring bikes have powerful alternators with lots of extra power. I am not sure but would bet that Yamaha didn't put an alternator any larger than necessary in your scooter.

Most likely you have enough current to the jacket liner and maybe the gloves, but not enough to run the chaps as well. Or maybe if you run all 3 on the lowest setting, it might work. Don't forget that if you are drawing more current than the system can handle, you will kill your rectifier ($$$) and battery, most likely leaving you stranded somewhere. The engine won't just quit on you, but it won't start back up later. Also, you can start it, and measure the amps at the battery and see how much it rises as you rev the engine into the middle rev range. (Can you do that, does a scooter have neutral?)

Good luck!

[cmthmpsn]

Cricket1,

Thanks for the help. I'm SOOO.... not a mechanic, and the only tools I have are basic wrenches, no special electrical diagnostic stuff. Can I put a bigger alternator in, then? I'm looking at Specs in the Owner's Manual and I don't see anything about what type or size of alternator it has. For the Electrical System, it says:

• Ignition system: Transistorized coil ignition (digital)
• Charging System: AC magneto

Then it lists the model of the battery along with its Voltage (12, obviously) and Capacity (8.0Ah)
The next page shows all the various bulbs, with their Voltages and Wattages, then all the fuses and their Amperages

BTW, a scooter doesn't technically have Neutral since it's a simple gas-and-go throttle with no gears. But, putting it up on the center stand, then revving the engine would have the same effect. But, since it's a maxi-scooter, it's huge: 467 lbs. (212 kg), and I can't get it up on the center stand. I've laid it down a couple of times, as you would expect a beginner to do, and I had to get help to pick it back up.  

[tjhess74]

christina, first, as far as getting the exact numbers for your output, i would contact the dealer/mechanic.  if they dont have the info (which is possible), contact yamaha.  chances are youre not going to have much electricity to play with.  a good quality textile jacket with armor would probably be a better bet.  mine is water/wind proof and very toasty with the liner installed.  i use ski bibs for the lowers and have not problems down to single digits.  that way you can focus on heated gloves.

second, i would highly recommend taking a basic riders course to help hone some basic skills.  also, with someone to help, i would set down a blanket and purposfully set your scoot on the side so you can learn to pick it up on your own.  you may not always have someone around to help and it may not be safe to wait for one.  its all about leverage.  if you face away from the scoot (on the seat side), squat down by bending your legs, reach behind you.  with one hand you grab something solid on the rear of the bike (grabrail, frame, etc) and the other hand grabs onto the handlebar grip (the one closest to the ground).  get your buttocks into the seat and use your legs to lift.  that way your using the biggest muscles in your body and not straining your back.   lifting up a machine while facing it is dangerous for your body. once its upright, dont keep lifting cause it will fall over to the other side!

you should be able to google/youtube 'proper motorcycle lifting techniques' or something like that to see a demo on how to do it.  the same goes for finding a way to get it on the center stand.  again, if necessary, have your dealer help you.  if youre cute, theyll probably be willing to spend all day with you.

just for trivia purposes, is your middle name marie?!

[cmthmpsn]

I have taken, and passed, a basic motorcycle safety class.

I'll have to try your method for lifting the bike. It looks like it will be more successful than the way I lift it.

And, yes, my middle name is Marie. There's a lot of us around with the same first/middle/last name combination. I know there's about 6 of us who have been issued Army e-mail addresses.  

[MK96xj]

I would be very surprised that the scooters alternator would have enough to run a full set of heated gear. I would however confirm this with Yamaha.

The company that I know of but have no experience with on battery opperated heated gear is EXO 2.
The following link has some of their products. Not cheap though.
http://www.adventuremotogear.com/heated-clothing-by-exo-c-27.html

I prefer the textile route for winter riding. Although it has been debated to death that leather is more abrasion resistant, I beleive the latest technical textiles are just as protective and provide more functionality.

[atypical1]

I would definitely not wear the ski jacket or anything else that's not abrasion resistant. I prefer leather but understand that it's not always as convenient. I have BMW textile gear and find it really, really warm when I put the liner in the jacket. But there are other brands out there that are probably just as warm.

I just bought a heated vest and have the Exo and really like it. They do have a battery version too and since you're commuting it's probably not a bad option to try out. It keeps you from having to fiddle with the electrics of your bike. You also might try buying a rain suit to wear over your gear. Often just getting the wind off of you will work wonders.

james

[Scratch33]

If alternator output's a problem, I'd suggest wearing a heated jacket or vest as opposed to heated pants.  Keep your core warm and your body will be less inclined to draw  blood from the extremities in its attempt to protect your internal organs.  

If you insist on wearing leather rather than textile for cold weather riding, I'd suggest adding something windproof to your layers.  In exteme cold-below freezing-I wear a lined textile jacket(Olympia AST) over a windproof jacket (Mountain Hardwear) over a Gerbing's heated jacket liner.  For maximum benefit the heated gear should be the closest layer to your street clothes.

[cmthmpsn]

I've got my wind/waterproof GoreTex bicycle rain jacket that is thin enough to go under my leathers. I'll try it for now.

I also found a website called http://www.CozyWinters.com/, and they have a battery-powered jacket liner that I ordered. Now the only thing I won't have is heated socks, but I haven't had too many issues with cold toes. I have to wear thick wool socks over my regular socks to make my GoreTex Winter hiking boots (I haven't bought motorcycle boots yet) fit my very narrow feet anyway, so that helps keep me warm in the process.

I've been looking at the Gerbing website, and I see they use coax connectors, like the Synergy gear does. I'm wondering if Gerbing and Synergy gear is compatible? If it is, I might buy some of Gerbing's 12v Lithium Ion batteries to run the Synergy gear I already have and reduce the load on my bike. My mileage has gone down from 59 MPG in the Summer to 50 MPG now that I'm running the heated gear off the bike battery.

[McRider]

I don't think the heated gear is to blame for the reduced gas mileage.  Winter blend gas plus colder starting temps with more choke time are the cause.  

[SLK50]

  OK, first I must admit that I did NOT sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night so I may be under qualified.
  According to Yamaha's shop manual, maximum alternator output for the Majesty is 27.5 amps or approximately 330 watts at 5,000 rpms. The op's total combined electrical demand for her heated gear is 12.6 amps or about 150 watts. I wouldn't think the total electrical demand for just running the Majesty to be more than about 10 amps. In my estimation ( unless someone can show me otherwise ) this should leave a "surplus" of about 5 amps. This should be adequate unless some additional demand like heated grips is introduced. The inclusion of Heat-trollers to regulate temperature would further reduce demand by keeping the heated gear from drawing at "max" all the time.
  In conclusion, I would go ahead with use of the heated gear run off the Majesty.

[cmthmpsn]

Well, that's interesting that the maximum alternator output is so high when the battery capacity is supposedly only 8.0 amps. I know next to nothing about how everything works together in engines, and only a little about how a few (not all) of the engine components work separately. If you're a mechanic, I may take your word for it that it might work. I think I'll contact my shop to verify it before I try it, though, because I'd hate to get stranded somewhere. OTOH, I would prefer to know that I won't run out of battery power in my heated gear out on the road, too, so if I can plug it in, I think that would be best.

[bugeyed]

Your battery rating is 8 Ah. That means the battery can discharge at a rate of 8 amps for 1 hour. In reality, with a short circuit, your battery will discharge hundreds of amps for a very brief period before smoke and flames erupt. The important number here is the output rating of the alternator / generator. 330 watts is 27.5 amps at 12 volts (most vehicles actually produce over 13 Volts). Now you have to figure out what the current draw is for all the lights and ignition stuff is as well as you heated gear. If you come in under the magical number of 27.5 amps, you will be OK. Keep in mind that if you are running at the upper end of the current (amps) produced by your alternator, your battery may not be charging, and if you do indeed exceed the rating, your battery will discharge to make up the difference leaving you with a dead battery.

Oh, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express either, but I am an electronics tech

[doodah man]

The battery capacity is 8 A-h, as in 8 ampere-hours.  This theoretically means that your battery can supply 8 amperes for one hour before voltage falls below usable, or 16 amperes for 30 minutes, or 32 amperes for 15 minutes.  It is a measure of energy storage capacity, not ultimate current capability.  Your alternator is the limiting factor, not the battery.

[cmthmpsn]

Ah, OK, that clears up a lot of things. So, I need to add up everything -- in Watts, not Amps -- that already draws power from the alternator -- not the battery -- and see if I have enough power to spare for the full heated suit. I just added up all the various bulbs, and they draw a total of 219.2 watts, but they're never all on simultaneously. Only one turn signal is ever on, not both, and most of the time, neither turn signal is on; and console indicator lights are only on as needed. So if I subtract out one side of turn signals (assuming all the console lights are on and I'm signaling a turn), I'm down to 177.2 watts. Most of the time, though, I would draw even less power than that. Then I add in 76 watts for the jacket, 43 watts for the pants and 24 watts for the gloves, I'm up to 320.2 total watts. That only would give me 9.8 watts for other power things not listed, like the LED brake light, on-board computer, fuel injector, etc. I'm thinking that's a very slim margin for other unlisted components. What do you all think? Looking at the wattage needed, not the amps, does it look like it would work to add in the jacket?

[bugeyed]

Yep, you got it. You are cutting it kinda close, keep in mind that the alternator output rating is peak output. That means if you don't get your engine up to the proper rpm's, your alternator won't be putting out 330 Watts. Your battery will absorb the load while not in the peak range, that's what draws the battery down. I know it all sounds like doom and gloom, but I'm pretty sure you will be OK as long as your up to speed. When you come to a stop, you might notice the heat output drop off. Have you considered just going with the heated vest? I have one and I love it. I think if you can keep your core warm, your arms won't be too bad off. They draw 52 watts.

[cmthmpsn]

I've thought about just the vest, and I suppose I could try it. But I'm on the thin side of the weight scale, and I'm always a bit colder than the average person due to my lack of natural insulation. I always have to wear long sleeves, especially in the summer to defend against excessive air conditioning. So, I don't really know if only keeping my core warm will be enough.

[bajajoaquin]

I'd go ahead and try with just the jacket first. Make sure you give it the best chance of heating: put it as close to your body as you can. You can't put under work clothes, of course, but you can put any additional layers above it. Also, if your windbreaker layer will fit over the leather, you might try that.

The closer you can get the heating elements to your skin, and the more layers on top of them, the warmer you'll be.

[cmthmpsn]

I've gotten the 12v, 8Ah LIon battery from Gerbing, so next time I ride, I'll pull my gloves off the system and run them from the portable battery. The coax connection fits, so it should work. The jacket hasn't arrived yet, I need to check the UPS website and see when it's supposed to arrive. But I won't be riding for a few days, anyway as there's a couple of inches of snow on the ground here.

[cmthmpsn]

I've not been up here in a while. In fact, I've been on two 1-year National Guard tours to Iraq since I was last up here. I'm getting ready to do a 420-mile (one way) ride to my sister's baby shower and back this coming weekend. I'll be crossing at least one mountain pass and I'm hoping I won't need my heated gear, but I'll have it with me. I think I will upgrade to the heated full pants liner, not just the chaps-style liners I currently have. I remember my backside getting chilled as the chaps don't cover them. Wish me luck on my ride.  

[Mrs. DantesDame]

I've not been up here in a while.

Welcome back!  

I remember my backside getting chilled as the chaps don't cover them. Wish me luck on my ride.  

Textile pants to go with a textile jacket?  

[playinatwork]

Good luck on your ride and THANKS FOR YOUR SERVICE.