Future Uly with 1125 Motor?

[R Doug]

Of course we know the answer is yes.  But, check out what Buell's Director of Communications has to say about expanding the use of the 1125...

(go to the 6 min. mark)



Uly XT w/ the 1125 please.  Thank you.  

[Rogue]

Given the mission of the Uly, I don't understand why anyone would need the 1125R motor in it?

How many Uly owners will go faster than 120 mph?  

Honestly, the 1125R motor has similar torque as the Thunderstorm up until it hits about 8k RPM.  That's when it takes on a whole new dimension because the Helicon engine has the headroom and top end horsespower sportbikes are known for.  But in a Uly?  It doesn't make sense.  This is why BMW doesn't make a K1200GS, nor does Ducati make a Multistrada with the 1098 motor!  

In my opinion, the Thunderstorm needs a closer ratio 6-speed, maybe another 1k RPM, and maybe 10 more rwhp.  All this as long as it does NOT increase any maintenance on itself.  Why would you want the complexity of liquid cooling, valve inspection intervals, added weight & cost, when you will rarely use the extra RPM and top end power?    The Uly is already plenty fast for its mission.

[R Doug]

What's wrong with wanting a proper sport motor in a sport-touring bike?  And I should clarify, I'm talking about the Uly XT, not the X.  

Wanting the Rotax mill in the Uly has nothing to do with speed or horsepower for me.  Quite simply, it would be nice to have something that can spool up quickly and be able to easily match RPMs to the rear wheel speed during spirited rides.  I've tried blipping the throttle on a Thunderstorm during several test rides and the motor is too lethargic when accelerating and matching revs during downshifting.  I'm not saying it has to be the 1125 from the CR or the R, it should be a detuned version of that motor.  

And, with all due respect, comparring the Multi's 1100 w/ the Uly's Thunderstorm is not even fair.  There's nothing wrong with the 1100 in the Multi.  I'd take that twin any day of the week in a Uly.  The Thunderstrom is a narrow angle twin made for a cruiser, the 1100 is an L-twin made for a sportbike.  And it's not fair to compare a Uly XT to a GS, heck, even the X version doesn't really compare.  The XT is more like a Triumph Tiger (which has a proper sport motor).  Besides, BMW's boxer twin is still better than a Thunderstorm even if it isn't my cup of tea.  

When I'm ready to trade the Super Duke for something a little more grown up, it will be a Uly XT if they put the right motor in it.  It not, I'll have to venture up to Pittsburgh and pick up a Multi, or a Tiger.  Then again, there are rumors that KTM will be brining the touring version of the SM to the US.  I already know how much I love that motor.  

[goodhawk]

You're right, of course - Buell would be niftier with a different engine, I'm sure upper managem ( Eric ) toatally realizes that.  BUT, of course, $$$.

I' d prefer other than the Duc., just from maint. point of view. say a 750 version of the Rotax . . .

[Rincewind]

I would sit up and take notice if they put the Helicon in a Ulysses.  I've tested the Uly on a number of occasions and just can't gel with the motor.

[BobW]

Rogue, I think the interview answered that question (why not more 1125) very well when they said customers (like you and many others) like the current platform for a specific mission parameter(s), but Buell will add the new motor to more models.

In my never ceasing quest to find the one "do it all" bike (or as close as possible) your comments about the tranny illustrate a good example of the "wish list" we all have and then the pro/cons of each bike we compare to that list. I spoke with an 08 12X rider up in the mountains yesterday while we both met while enjoying a nice December ride. He loves his Buell, but had recently done the "9" gear swap for what he felt made the bike even better in the very tight twisty roads in our area. The rider he purchased it from had sold it to buy a new XT as he felt the lower height, etc., was a better fit. I think the bottom line for HD and any other company is to listen to what customers want and help them purchase like models and/or options from their OEM that make for more happy customers.... Your defending the model as you like it is admirable, but HD already owns all the parts/components, so they will gain more sales with a more competitive line as defined by new customers VS saying people shouldn't look elsewhere for other/different qualities their current models don't incorporate. Using only one persons standards will make for Comrad Rogue making us all buy Volgas    

[R Doug]

Rogue, I didn't mean to be so harsh on the Uly Thunderstorm.  I think Rincewind said it best by saying he wasn't able to gel w/ the motor.  That's my take too.  

I'm so passionate about it because I REALLY want to love own a Uly.  I don't have a local Duc or Triumph dealer, but I do have a local Buell dealer.  And, I really don't like buying bikes where I can't have them serviced in the immediate area.  I've tried it and it's not the ideal for me.  

If my riding style were different, I could totally see where the current Uly would be perfect for me.  But, I still get a very spirited riding burr up my arse when I'm out and I must have a sportier mill.  Perhapes the XT could get a rotax and the X can keep the Thunderstrom.  

[Rogue]

I understand what you all are saying.  Yes the XT may be a good recepient for the 1125R motor.  I was focused on the X.  

I like both the Thunderstorm and Helicon.  I think each one has their own strengths and weaknesses.  The Helicon is a great sportbike motor though and it on the 1125R is the Firebolt that everyone expected.  I guess you can call it the Firebolt, unleashed!  

Compared to the Ducati L-twin aircooled motor, the L-twin is smoother and has another 1k+ revs in it.  But it lags behind on power and torque to the Thunderstorm.  However, at revs, both engines are nearly as smooth.  At idle, it's obvious which one purrs.  But the Ducati penalizes its owner with 6k mile major service intervals.  To me, I prefer the Thunderstorm.  I think BMW got it right with their R1200S motor as fitted on the R1200S.  It's 4-valve head allows it to breath 122 bhp at over 8k RPM, matched to its close ratio 6-speed, this is where the Thunderstorm needs to be right now.  Even though the BMW motor requires 6k mile valve inspections, having the cylinders out on its sides makes it easier than most.  If Buell can get the Thunderstorm up to par, I think it would make one of the best engines overall in terms of power, simplicity, low weight, and cost.  

[R Doug]

But the Ducati penalizes its owner with 6k mile major service intervals.  

As a previous owner of an ST3, I know what you mean.  It was a labor (to my wallet) of love.  

[Hickey]

Having test ridden a Ulysses I would agree with the sentiment of liking the bike, but being put off by the motor.  I really do understand the appeal of the motor and why so many folks like it.  No valve adjustments and great economy!     But I just couldn't get into the Thunderstorm groove.

On the other hand, if Buell were to stuff the 1125 motor into a chassis that is something like the Ulysses, that would be something I'd be excited about.  However, that 1125 motor would need to be retuned to deliver better economy than it gets in the R or CR versions.  Perhaps a larger frame/tank too.

Would this be an adventure bike?  Nope.  I'm thinking something more along the lines of the latest Tiger or the Multistrada.  A big, tall, comfy, upright standard/sporty bike with some touring options.  This would be a pavement bike that can handle potholes with ease and perhaps venture down the occasional gravel road.  

For a big dual sport adventure bike, I think they ought to keep the Thunderstorm engine, but set up the chassis with more off road bias.  Perhaps giving it a 21" front wheel and 18" rear.  Basically make it into something like the GS1200, but with a Buell twist.

[Kootenanny]

OK, there must be something wrong with me...I LIKE the air-cooled Buell engine.  I can appreciate the Helicon, but I certainly have no desire to replace my XB9R Firebolt with an 1125R; I really like the XB12XT, and again I think I'd prefer it with the Thunderstorm engine.

Now, if they made, say, a 750cc version of the Helicon, with around the same power as my XB9R engine, and used that for an XB750R, say less than 350 lb, well...THAT would get my attention!  As it is, about the only bike I've seen (and I've yet to actually see one!) that interests me at all as a replacement for my 'Bolt is the 690 Duke...and that might well change if I ever get to ride one (or even see one, for that matter).

[Hickey]

OK, there must be something wrong with me...I LIKE the air-cooled Buell engine.  I can appreciate the Helicon, but I certainly have no desire to replace my XB9R Firebolt with an 1125R; I really like the XB12XT, and again I think I'd prefer it with the Thunderstorm engine.

Now, if they made, say, a 750cc version of the Helicon, with around the same power as my XB9R engine, and used that for an XB750R, say less than 350 lb, well...THAT would get my attention!  As it is, about the only bike I've seen (and I've yet to actually see one!) that interests me at all as a replacement for my 'Bolt is the 690 Duke...and that might well change if I ever get to ride one (or even see one, for that matter).

Ooo...  A 750-800cc version of the Helicon engine?  Now that you mention it, I really like that idea.  Truthfully I don't need the full power of the 1125 and I would like the (hopefully) improved fuel economy of a smaller motor.  

[mugwump58]

So what's the scheduled maintenance for the 1125?

[chornbe]

I think he made excellent points regarding ease of use, ease of maintenance and broad, consistent power delivery. I know I'm comparing grapefruits and clementines, but all of those points are what I love most about my Sportie. I think the XT is just fine with the air-cooled engine. OR... if they want to find a way to develop hydraulic valves into a water cooled engine... ya know, like *every* other manufacturer has some models with... then that would still keep that ideal in place. In any case, I think a big bore twin is the way to go for the Ulie... torque and long-stroke feel... water or air cooled is immaterial.

[Thunderbox]

Wake up and smell the roses people.  The Uly is already the best selling Buell ever.  Why would they want to fuck with that kind of success.  I doubt you will see a Uly with the Helicon engine with 146 HP.  Not needed and quite frankly I wouldn't think of buying a newer Uly if it had that engine.  There are many more like me I am sure.  Everything we hold important with the Uly would be gone, first off less torque, valve adjustment, more boken belts, less fuel range, more complicated a machine.  Who wants it.

[BobW]

Good points Thunderbox.

There are so many business facets to this, but I'll try not to stray too far. I guess I can't quite wrap my arms around guys being so worried that other people, as in new customers, may be interested in an additional/different offering from Buell. You and "many others" are good customers to be kept, but the raw numbers of overall sales are very small. I would think selling more product to more customers would be a good thing for the Motor Company. I think these motors also have possible applications in their recently purchased Italian brands as well. The air cooled motors (for all OEM's) will face even tougher emission/heat/noise mandates, so having new technology in house will be prudent IMO.

I have enjoyed riding so many great bikes for well over 40 years. Too many great brands are long gone because of "all the above" reasons, mostly not being able to adapt to remain solvent. Anyone ever think they'd see the "Big 3" licking the sweat off Congress' balls for $. HD is smart and can build anything as well as any OEM. With the Asian hoard making the UJM's look like a small marketing blip, I think they know they must play their A Game in every nook and crannies available to them. The Gravy Train won't carry that freight any more.

Cheers  

[Thunderbox]

Good points Thunderbox.

There are so many business facets to this, but I'll try not to stray too far. I guess I can't quite wrap my arms around guys being so worried that other people, as in new customers, may be interested in an additional/different offering from Buell. You and "many others" are good customers to be kept, but the raw numbers of overall sales are very small. I would think selling more product to more customers would be a good thing for the Motor Company. I think these motors also have possible applications in their recently purchased Italian brands as well. The air cooled motors (for all OEM's) will face even tougher emission/heat/noise mandates, so having new technology in house will be prudent IMO.

I have enjoyed riding so many great bikes for well over 40 years. Too many great brands are long gone because of "all the above" reasons, mostly not being able to adapt to remain solvent. Anyone ever think they'd see the "Big 3" licking the sweat off Congress' balls for $. HD is smart and can build anything as well as any OEM. With the Asian hoard making the UJM's look like a small marketing blip, I think they know they must play their A Game in every nook and crannies available to them. The Gravy Train won't carry that freight any more.

Cheers  

I couldn't agree with you more BobW but the last time I looked Buell was selling a bike with the New Engine in 2 different models.  Like I said the Uly is the best selling bike Buell has ever marketed.  I know if I were them, I wouldn't want to change it right now.  Having said that Buell is also among the few bike manufacturers to record an increase in sales this past year.  12.5% increase which is substantial.  I think they have a pretty good handle on the demographics of the Buell buyers.  I just want to go for a ride and enjoy but with temps in the -41.8 F yesterday I think I will have to pass.

[R Doug]

I just want to go for a ride and enjoy but with temps in the -41.8 F yesterday I think I will have to pass.

   I'd pass too.  That's COLD!

Here's something funny in regards to my previous post basing the current Uly motor...

The wife recently gave me blessing to start saving up for a third bike.  I want a touring bike and since I wouldn't have to replace the Super Duke, I would actually prefer to have the Thunderstorm motor in the Uly.  If I were replacing the Super Duke,  I would want something that gives me a little bit of what I would be missing in the KTM and add a better touring platform.  My frustration comes from trying to get one bike that would do everything for me.  Since I'll be able to keep the sporty 999cc in the Super Duke, I wouldn't need that in a touring bike.  


If Buell does add the Rotax to the Uly, it would be best if it kept both engines as choices somehow or use a smaller displacement Rotax.  

[BlueRidgeKat]

I would sit up and take notice if they put the Helicon in a Ulysses.  I've tested the Uly on a number of occasions and just can't gel with the motor.

Same here.

I wanted to like the Uly so much and the idea of having a American Buell. It was comfy, handled well, I like the look of it and it fit me well but ended up choosing the V-Strom. Not so much because of the Uly engine but the damn cooling of it. That stupid screaming cooling fan was just annoying. Even when you stop the engine the bitch will at times still be screaming. If thats the best Buell can do for cooling the rear cylinder or whatever it is supposed to be cooling, then I'll pass. It also seemed it was blowing alot of the heat on my leg or something, maybe you get used to it or maybe its just hot all the time.

Anyway to get back on the topic of the 1125 in a Uly. De-tune it and offer as a option or however they decide to use it and I'll give the Uly another try.

I'm sure Uly owners love them but it seems that everytime I have seen some comparison of the Uly with other somewhat similar bikes that the Uly always finishes last and its always because of the engine getting such low marks.  

[Thunderbox]

Same here.

I wanted to like the Uly so much and the idea of having a American Buell. It was comfy, handled well, I like the look of it and it fit me well but ended up choosing the V-Strom. Not so much because of the Uly engine but the damn cooling of it. That stupid screaming cooling fan was just annoying. Even when you stop the engine the bitch will at times still be screaming. If thats the best Buell can do for cooling the rear cylinder or whatever it is supposed to be cooling, then I'll pass. It also seemed it was blowing alot of the heat on my leg or something, maybe you get used to it or maybe its just hot all the time.

Anyway to get back on the topic of the 1125 in a Uly. De-tune it and offer as a option or however they decide to use it and I'll give the Uly another try.

I'm sure Uly owners love them but it seems that everytime I have seen some comparison of the Uly with other somewhat similar bikes that the Uly always finishes last and its always because of the engine getting such low marks.  

Your only complaint was the fan?  Give your head a shake, make the adjustment and forgetaboutit.  I didn't like the fan, thank god the priorities are in the correct order.  Forget it's a much better handling bike than others, forget it gets the best fuel economy in it's class, forget it has the best 2 up handling of any similar bike, forget it comes with a 2 year warranty new, forget it has one of the best seating position in the industry and who knows what else.  I just can't understand this constant whining about the Uly fan simply because it makes a sound when it is on.  I understand everyone has there own likes and dislikes but I can say with a certainty that the things the Uly does better than any other bike is well worth the sound that the fan generates.  It's different but it certainly is not a problem IMHO

[Rogue]

The Buell XB fans was put in there for a distinct purpose.   Buell found that rear cylinder temperatures get nighty high even after engine shutdown, resulting in reduced engine life because the rear cylinder fails first.  In order to equalize the lifespand of each cylinder Buell put the fan in there to evacuate stail, hot air.  The design of the perimeter frame surrounds the rear cylinder so heat becomes even worse in that area.  So I'm quite glad the fan is there to do a job.  It's loud because it moves a lot of air!  Even the 1125R has a similar fan when things get hot back there.  

[BlueRidgeKat]

Your only complaint was the fan?

Fan, heat, vibes and no where near the wind protection of the Strom or at least not for my size and riding position.

Just into quiet and smooth I guess. Dont even like aftermarket exhaust. Pulling up on a bike and stopping and it still has the fan whining and everyone looking at you like WTF is just not the kind of attention I care for. I expect a fan to make a sound but not that kind of one. Maybe the one I tried had a problem that made it louder than most.  

Yes, the bike has alot of +'s that you mention but again, in any comparison I have seen it is always last or near last and its always because of the engine. There must be reasons for that.

Like you said everyone likes what they like.

[Rogue]

Well, Buell sales have been steadily been going up since the introduction of the Ulysses.  For a while, they held steady at 10k units a year.  For a company with no more than 17 engineers, it's a flea in H-D's elephant.  But that is pretty darn amazing for the company's size.  Moto Guzzi for example would be hard pressed to sell 10k motorcycles this year. 

Some people just prefer certain things over others.  However, there are enough to keep the business growing at Buell and most of their bikes have the Thunderstorm engine.

BTW, Cycle World just did a quick review of the most updated Buell Lightning Long and they gave it good points. 

Bottom line is, the Thunderstorm is a different kind of engine that requires a different riding style. 

[Thunderbox]

Fan, heat, vibes and no where near the wind protection of the Strom or at least not for my size and riding position.

Just into quiet and smooth I guess. Dont even like aftermarket exhaust. Pulling up on a bike and stopping and it still has the fan whining and everyone looking at you like WTF is just not the kind of attention I care for. I expect a fan to make a sound but not that kind of one. Maybe the one I tried had a problem that made it louder than most.  

Yes, the bike has alot of +'s that you mention but again, in any comparison I have seen it is always last or near last and its always because of the engine. There must be reasons for that.

Like you said everyone likes what they like.

Unlike many people I don't purchase my bikes because some speed demon thinks it's fast enough for them.  I buy my bikes because I like them and they put a smile on my face.  Having said that I guess it would be accurate to say I bought my Uly for the engine not dispite it.  Those who look down on the Thunderstorm because it doesn't produce 150 hp are the same people who at one time questioned the need for 83 Hp when the Kawasaki Z1 first came out in 1972.  I don't really care that some staff person at Cycle World doesn't like the Thunderstorm.  

Here is a quote I use often because it says it all as far as I'm concerned.

Relatively few riders are lucky enough to discover that there is a lot more to a lifetime of motorcycling enjoyment than just going fast. Those who do... become "motorcyclists".  The rest just happen to be riding a motorcycle.

Nuff Said

[chornbe]

Unlike many people I don't purchase my bikes because some speed demon thinks it's fast enough for them.  I buy my bikes because I like them and they put a smile on my face.  Having said that I guess it would be accurate to say I bought my Uly for the engine not dispite it.  Those who look down on the Thunderstorm because it doesn't produce 150 hp are the same people who at one time questioned the need for 83 Hp when the Kawasaki Z1 first came out in 1972.  I don't really care that some staff person at Cycle World doesn't like the Thunderstorm.  

Here is a quote I use often because it says it all as far as I'm concerned.

Relatively few riders are lucky enough to discover that there is a lot more to a lifetime of motorcycling enjoyment than just going fast. Those who do... become "motorcyclists".  The rest just happen to be riding a motorcycle.

Nuff Said

 

 

[R Doug]

IMHO, I'm not reading that people don't like the Thunderstorm because they can't ride fast with it.  It's fast enough for me, I can ride at "the pace" and even above it w/ that motor.  

As previously stated, it has nothing to do with power (or speed). I just don't like the way the motor accelerates (and I don't mean drag racing, just accelerate), idles, and goes through the gears when in the twisties at a pace (not hair on fire).  

I'm not meaning to offend anyone who likes the motor at all.  I can see where someone would like it.  All I'm saying is it's not the ideal motor for me.  

[chornbe]

Pretty insulting post, Doug. No wonder you have 6 ignores!  

[R Doug]

It wasn't intended to be insulting (seriously).  I'm just trying to point out that everyone has different tastes in bikes (and in this case, the motors).  

Regarding the ignores, I think it takes one to know one.  

[chornbe]

It wasn't intended to be insulting (seriously).

Wait... I *hope* you realize I was kidding.

[R Doug]

Wait... I *hope* you realize I was kidding.

I thought you were.  

BTW... I have 6 ignores because I was in a thread whining about having one.  So, out of spite, some STN pranksters added a few more to my profile.  You on the other hand...    

[chornbe]

You on the other hand...    

Right... I legitimately piss people off (apparently).  

[R Doug]

Na, some people are too thin skinned.  

[Bueller]

I have nothing against the Helicon motor, it is just that I can't see it as practical in an "Adventure" bike.  An issue that ends all issues is the size of the pods.  They protect the cooling system from stones and stuff unlike front mounted radiators, but you still need to get between trees

Those who are passionate about their adventure bikes will disagree when I say that the the best off road touring bikes in the world are air cooled.  The Uly is on the fringe of that because it is still a road configuration tourer, it is the Buell definition of an an Adventure bike.

I haven't ridden an 1125R since the last re-flash, but those I have ridden have not matched the pull of the XB in the 2,500 to 4,000 rpm rev range.  An off road bike needs torque without revs, and the Uly as an adventure bike does as well. An off-road bike that revs to 10,000 RPM is not something that appeals to me.

I like a sport tourer and the Firebolt is great.  My next bike may be an 1125R because it is a logical next step.  If my passion were the Uly, I would want the Thunderstorm motor.

 

[st ryder]

...Those who are passionate about their adventure bikes will disagree when I say that the the best off road touring bikes in the world are air cooled. ...

Only the adventure bike poseurs would agree. *Real* adventure bike riders put only water in their rads in case they break down or become disabled otherwise while trashing up and polluting the *real* backwoods/desserted areas, and have to drink it to survive.     (JK, JK)

[BlueRidgeKat]

I'm not meaning to offend anyone who likes the motor at all.  I can see where someone would like it.  All I'm saying is it's not the ideal motor for me.  

Same here. I have tried out two of them (Lightning & Uly) and they just didnt seem to be for me.

Honestly, I wish Buell all the success in the world. I would love to see a time come when they out sell all the big four Jap brands combined, not sure that would ever happen but I'd love to see it. Hell I have even bought a Buell T-shirt "Buell American Motorcycles". I hope one day to find the right Buell for me to go with it.

[surfsup]

i like the t'storm mil just fine - i decided against the ullyXT because of lack of weather protection - otherwise it was about near perfect for an A/ST bike as you will find today.

[2DFlyer]

I bought my Uly for the engine not dispite it.

AMEN brother.  AMEN.  Different stokes - I just happen to prefer mine under square.

[Kootenanny]

Honestly, I wish Buell all the success in the world. I would love to see a time come when they out sell all the big four Jap brands combined, not sure that would ever happen but I'd love to see it. Hell I have even bought a Buell T-shirt "Buell American Motorcycles". I hope one day to find the right Buell for me to go with it.

Hah!  I have a Buell motorcycle, but no T-shirt!  (although I know the one I want, sadly no longer printed--see below.)

Actually, I kinda prefer that Buell remain the size it is.  Currently, Buell sells every bike they make.  Grow much bigger than they are, and they'd have to "tool up" multiple production lines and introduce more automation, and move closer to the industrial conglomerates that rule the bike world.  Plus, on a more selfish note, I kinda like the exclusivity I get from riding what is pretty much the ONLY Buell in my area; the rarity makes it an exotic.  And hey, who would I have to argue with on riding forums if everyone had a Buell?

[nanbil]

And hey, who would I have to argue with on riding forums if everyone had a Buell?

I don't think you'll have to worry about this anytime soon...

[atypical1]

Relatively few riders are lucky enough to discover that there is a lot more to a lifetime of motorcycling enjoyment than just going fast. Those who do... become "motorcyclists".  The rest just happen to be riding a motorcycle.

That's a pretty fucking elitist post there isn't it? Just because someone doesn't like the T'storm motor we are less of a motorcyclist than you are? I hate that motor too but that doesn't really matter does it? I mean there's a bike for everyone and we all prefer something different. Beside that, it isn't about whether or not the motor is fast enough because it is. I just don't like the "feel" of it. But, again, we all have preferences.

The same arguments that you're discussing here with the Uly are being discussed over on the Duc forums regarding putting the water cooled motor in the Multistrada when it gets a redesign too. What's nice about the 1125 motor is that it gives people another option to choose from if you don't like the T'storm motor.

james

[Kootenanny]

That's a pretty fucking elitist post there isn't it? Just because someone doesn't like the T'storm motor we are less of a motorcyclist than you are?

James, read what the guy said: "Relatively few riders are lucky enough to discover that there is a lot more to a lifetime of motorcycling enjoyment than just going fast."  

Nothing about engines there, or motorcycles for that matter.  I understand what he's saying, and I agree.  It would apply to riders of any motorcycles, no matter what engine size or brand.  He is simply decrying the obsession so many riders seem to have with powerful motorcycles--often, it would seem, to the detriment of their enjoyment of the sport.

[atypical1]

James, read what the guy said: "Relatively few riders are lucky enough to discover that there is a lot more to a lifetime of motorcycling enjoyment than just going fast."  

Nothing about engines there, or motorcycles for that matter.  I understand what he's saying, and I agree.  It would apply to riders of any motorcycles, no matter what engine size or brand.  He is simply decrying the obsession so many riders seem to have with powerful motorcycles--often, it would seem, to the detriment of their enjoyment of the sport.

Well he did say:

Unlike many people I don't purchase my bikes because some speed demon thinks it's fast enough for them.  I buy my bikes because I like them and they put a smile on my face.  Having said that I guess it would be accurate to say I bought my Uly for the engine not dispite it.  Those who look down on the Thunderstorm because it doesn't produce 150 hp are the same people who at one time questioned the need for 83 Hp when the Kawasaki Z1 first came out in 1972.  I don't really care that some staff person at Cycle World doesn't like the Thunderstorm.  

which is directly about the motor and defending it.

Look, I'm not at all about total HP (I ride a boxer) but I would never say that I am more of a motorcyclist or that anyone is any less because they prefer to have more power. That's just as elitist as saying "People who don't like a lot of HP just don't know how to handle it". Neither statement is necessarily true.

james

[BlueRidgeKat]

Relatively few riders are lucky enough to discover that there is a lot more to a lifetime of motorcycling enjoyment than just going fast. Those who do... become "motorcyclists".  The rest just happen to be riding a motorcycle.

Nuff Said

I tend to ride the 650 a little to "fast" at times I admit and I'm sure there are few people if any who own a motorcycle that doesnt break the speed limit from time to time. I sold a awesome "fast" ZZR1200 year before last and purchased a little XT225 that tries its best to do 60mph on a highway just to keep up with most traffic but the things a blast on old country roads or gravel roads, so I certainly dont have to have the "fastest" thing currently on the market. In 34 years of riding I have had slow bikes, fast bikes and most everything in between and have enjoyed them all. There has been a number I have test rode and didnt like as well, sorry to say the Uly was one of them. As stated before, everyone is different, some bikes feel or fit them better than others plus everyone likes what they like.

I dont care if the Uly would do 180 in first gear I would not purchase one in its present form. Again, I'm happy for Buell that the Uly is its best seller, Its just not for me. I also have the opinion which may be wrong that if the Uly had a different engine with less vibes and water cooled that they would have probably sold double the Uly's than what they already have. And if they do someday have a option for some type of de-tuned 1125 in the Uly I'll take another look.

As far as the "motorcyclist" comment. I have never considered myself a biker or a motorcyclist but instead use the term "rider". I commute year round in all types of weather, take day trips, weekend trips or week long trips or enjoy just going around the block.

Ride what you like and enjoy it.
  

[Oilhed]

I wish I could get a new 1200 motor in an old Tube frame.  I think they both look cool.  I test rode a Uly and loved it.  I just wish the 1125 motor hid the radiator a little better.  I don't need any motor over 99 hp!

[BobW]

Ya Hooligan!!! I only need 98

[Bueller]

I wish I could get a new 1200 motor in an old Tube frame.  I think they both look cool.  I test rode a Uly and loved it.  I just wish the 1125 motor hid the radiator a little better.  I don't need any motor over 99 hp!

Buell have taken out a patent on an under-seat radiator.  There is an  article stating that the Gen III 1125 will have this.

The Britten and the Benelli Tornado have both done similar.  You won't believe this, but I suggested to Mr Buell that they should put the radiator under the seat when he was in Australia for the launch of the 1125R last May.

[chornbe]

You're right, I don't believe it. He prefers "Hey, Erik!"  

[Bueller]

I can prove opportunity even if I didn't record the conversation.  These are pictures of Erik and the Buell Riders Australia Club (BRCA)

It may be that a rear radiator was under investigation even then.  What he said when I suggested it was that things which could be done with a race bike may not necessarily work on a road bike.

[chornbe]

that was a joke, actually

[st ryder]

Buell have taken out a patent on an under-seat radiator.  There is an  article stating that the Gen III 1125 will have this.

The Britten and the Benelli Tornado have both done similar.  You won't believe this, but I suggested to Mr Buell that they should put the radiator under the seat when he was in Australia for the launch of the 1125R last May.

Don't know about the Britten, but the Nellie is know to have seat/engine heat problems with the rad there due to lack of circulating/flow through air. Also, as I've mentioned in previous threads about so called "mass centralisation" where I mentioned specifically the Tornado, there are other opinions on what's best re weight placement. I hope "Eric", if I can call him that, will walk away from his "design trinity" and just build bikes the best way they should be built to maximise their function/utility and looks, rather than stick to design principles that result in products that continue to alienate potential buyers.  

[Bueller]

that was a joke, actually

I took it as a joke, and a photo opportunity  

[2DFlyer]

I can prove opportunity even if I didn't record the conversation.  These are pictures of Erik and the Buell Riders Australia Club (BRCA)

It may be that a rear radiator was under investigation even then.  What he said when I suggested it was that things which could be done with a race bike may not necessarily work on a road bike.

So which one of you is you?

And why wouldn't we believe that you and Erik think alike?  

[Bueller]

I'm up the back.  Grey goatee, bit of a height advantage from the ramp up to the door. Behind Denise. (That should make it easy)

Thinking alike.  I can't be immodest and let that pass.  He is really switched on.  Fascinating to talk to, and what he has done with the bikes are just so smart.  He also was just so natural with all he talked to.  He is someone worth meeting.

My only claim is that I like to ride.

[2DFlyer]

I'm up the back.  Grey goatee, bit of a height advantage from the ramp up to the door. Behind Denise. (That should make it easy)

Thinking alike.  I can't be immodest and let that pass.  He is really switched on.  Fascinating to talk to, and what he has done with the bikes are just so smart.  He also was just so natural with all he talked to.  He is someone worth meeting.

My only claim is that I like to ride.

I don't know Denise but she was easy to spot.

Everyone I've read who has talked to him has said the same thing, unassuming, accessible, every day kinda guy.  One of a kind.  How are Buell's perceived in Australia?  I understand they're more popular and given much greater respect in Europe than the US.  Not to compare Australia to Europe, but how well received is the Buell down under?

[Bueller]

They generate a lot of interest here.  

The Harley riders all know them and quite a few buy them as a second bike and use them as a first.

Not all riders know them and are usually interested.  I kinda like the "what's that factor".  

Riders who do know them are also up for a chat.

They are addictive.  Friends and the riders on the Buell forums here who switch to other bikes usually come back pretty quickly.

Until the end of '07 I'd say every Buell that arrived here sold pretty quickly.  Then we had many months with no stock, and now either the sales momentum has dropped off a bit or they've imported many more than previously.  Either way the result is that you see quite a few on shop floors at the moment.  Some dealers help us promote the club, and we are getting quite a few new memberships coming through so new bikes are selling.

[Kootenanny]

I understand they're more popular and given much greater respect in Europe than the US.

Yeah, I've heard this too, and it's interesting.  I think that in Europe, Buells aren't "tainted" by their relationship with H-D, the way they are in the US--for one thing, I understand they aren't as tied to the H-D dealer network, and are often sold in sportbike shops right alongside Ducatis, Triumphs, Aprilias, etc.  Here in North America, many sportbike riders won't even consider a Buell because they see it as just a weird-looking Harley.  One friend told me, when he first saw my bike, that he was relieved--he thought I'd bought some kind of Harley cruiser.

[st ryder]

Yeah, I've heard this too, and it's interesting.  I think that in Europe, Buells aren't "tainted" by their relationship with H-D, the way they are in the US--for one thing, I understand they aren't as tied to the H-D dealer network, and are often sold in sportbike shops right alongside Ducatis, Triumphs, Aprilias, etc.  Here in North America, many sportbike riders won't even consider a Buell because they see it as just a weird-looking Harley.  One friend told me, when he first saw my bike, that he was relieved--he thought I'd bought some kind of Harley cruiser.

So, MV Augusta will soon be tainted as well because they are now owned by HD? I seriously doubt it. If Buell is tainted, it's not because of HD; it's because of itself.

[Kootenanny]

So, MV Augusta will soon be tainted as well because they are now owned by HD?

Already happening:


Got the pic from this thread in which most posters were joking, but some seem genuinely worried about H-D changing MV for trhe worse.  American riders have a love/hate relationship with Harley that colours anything H-D touches.

(sorry about the threadjackiing...)

[Rogue]

So, MV Augusta will soon be tainted as well because they are now owned by HD? I seriously doubt it. If Buell is tainted, it's not because of HD; it's because of itself.

Spoken like a true Ducati elitist.  

As usual you drop in to give your negative thoughts.  

[mugwump58]

"... them negative thought waves Moriority, woof, woof.".

[st ryder]

Spoken like a true Ducati elitist.  

Spoken like a true Buell apologist.  

If Buells don't sell well, don't blame HD. Blame Buell.

[st ryder]

 

[Oilhed]

If Buells don't sell well, don't blame HD. Blame Buell.

Blame the dealer!  Buells should be sold with the European brands.

[BobW]

Why would you blame the dealer other than the ones that carry them, but do not fully support Buell? HD fully owns Buell so it's not like there are two bickering companies making a Ford VS Chevy marketing plan. It would be interesting to see them allow Buell to go in a non Harley store. As the posts in this thread show, motorcycles are as much about emotion as they are the hard parts and with the Buell maybe more so due to it's unique design, history and limited offerings to a wide(r) demographic. There are real bottom lines that have to be met to keep the doors open and I hope all the gains in recent years by Buell, KTM, Ducati, Guzzi, et al, can survive this economic debacle and keep the variety of so many cool bikes alive. Ride what you like and go easy on the Kool Aid.

Cheers

[Kootenanny]

I like what you're sayin', Bob.

And it's very true, being part of the Harley dealer network is both a blessing and a curse for Buell.  On the one hand, it gives Buell access to a very broad and deep network of dealers in the US; on the other hand, those dealers are Harley dealers.  Many American sportbike riders wouldn't be caught dead in a Harley boutique (maybe they're afraid their friends might find out, I dunno), and those who do enter to look at Buells are often treated, well, poorly ("You don't want that plastic-covered torture rack--here, let me show you this nice FatBoy...").

[Rogue]

Spoken like a true Buell apologist.  

If Buells don't sell well, don't blame HD. Blame Buell.

Buell sales have been increasing since the introduction of the XB models. 

What's the matter?  You're not into any flame war at any of the other sites so you come in here baiting and spewing forth Buell hate?  Too much snow up north for you to actually ride your high maintenance, elitist Ducati ST2 that didn't sell well so is now discontinued? 

Please just go outside and make some snow angels on the ground or something. 

[2DFlyer]

I like what you're sayin', Bob.
 Buells are often treated, well, poorly ("You don't want that plastic-covered torture rack--here, let me show you this nice FatBoy...").

Not so in Raleigh - at least more recently.  Buell's are still relegated to the back of the store but they now have a whole corner of the store, with merchandise, a decent selection of new and used and a guy named Jordan who not only knows em but also races both 1125R and XB12R.  I still can't afford the one I'd like but I don't have to worry about knowing more than the sales guy when I go put on some showroom miles.

[Kootenanny]

I still can't afford the one I'd like but I don't have to worry about knowing more than the sales guy when I go put on some showroom miles.

Good to hear.  When I bought my 'Bolt, I knew a LOT more about the bike than the sales dude, just from my research; I should have charged a fee for the instruction I gave the guy.

On the rare occasion I take the bike in for service (eg. warranty work), I take it to a different dealer, even though it's farther away--they field a race team, and have dedicated Buell techs.  They also have (or had) at least one salesman who used to sell Big Four sportbikes, and is therefore very familiar with sport riders--he's enthusiastic about Buells, but he'll also discuss sportbikes in general and won't diss the Japanese brands.  I didn't see  him last time I was there, though.

[st ryder]

Buell sales have been increasing since the introduction of the XB models. 

What's the matter?  You're not into any flame war at any of the other sites so you come in here baiting and spewing forth Buell hate?  Too much snow up north for you to actually ride your high maintenance, elitist Ducati ST2 that didn't sell well so is now discontinued? 

Please just go outside and make some snow angels on the ground or something. 

My point is simple. If Buells were more desirable, people would seek them out regardless of where they're placed. I don't buy into the thinking that many people who want Buells don't buy them because they have to go to a HD dealership rather than any other dealership. Stop making excuses for low sales; it's the product, not the marketing, which I might add, is what you continuously harp on about; that Buells appeal to a certain type of person, and are not mainstream bikes. If that's the market they purposely wanted, ie not mainstream, well they got it, so why point the finger at HD and say they're at fault for low sales?

My local HD shop had 1 and only 1 1125r sit for more than 1 year in their old showroom. The thing is, they also sold all the big four Japanese brands at the same location durng that time before they finally opened up an exclusive HD shop. AFAIK, it's sitting in the new showroom.

Oh by the way, I ride a ST3, (the beautiful red one in my avatar  ) which my sig line has declared since 2005. Guess you're not one to actually read before you write.  

[Brad1445]

SD Rider is right as far as Im concerned.  I don'y Like Harley, but would jump any wall, pay any price to get my Buells in the past.  I have bought 5 new ones.  Buell attire, Bumber sticker on my truck I did it all because I thought they were the product.  I bragged and bragged and even sold a few to others.

Then the 1125.  Same Company, but I think the bungled the product no bad I don't care if they go out of business.  How can you screw up the holy grail, a ROTAX engine.  Well they did.  The frankenstein bike is a insult. Buell Sales were up in 2008 because so many people wanted one before but wanted a water cooled bike, and Buell blew it.

It's the product, pure and simple.

[Kootenanny]

My point is simple. If Buells were more desirable, people would seek them out regardless of where they're placed. I don't buy into the thinking that many people who want Buells don't buy them because they have to go to a HD dealership rather than any other dealership

No, I think a lot of sport riders simply diss Buell because they know they're associated with H-D.  I've heard and read lots of negative comments from people who've never ridden a Buell, based simply on a perception that they're "antiquated" and "slow."

And what sells sportbikes is perception.  No less than the "Pirate" crowd, sportbike riders want to be seen riding powerful, dangerous bikes.  What possible requirement is there for a ZX-10R or GSX-R1000 on public roads?  

It's true that Buell sales are small in comparison; that's fine, they're a small company.  And I understand they aren't for everyone.  Personally, I think the Rotax engine was the wrong direction for Buell to go--I see it as pure reaction to the public perception that Buells are antiquated.  That said, I don't think they botched it as Brad suggests (he just can't see past the scoops...); I just don't see the advantage of trying to compete in that particular market.  But interest has certainly grown in Buell, so likely I'm wrong.  (and of course, I'm looking at it from the point of view that power is secondary, which seems to put me in a very small minority.)

[2DFlyer]

 which seems to put me in a very small minority.)

I've spent my life in a minority subset of the majority so I'm with ya. Maybe that's part of what attracts me to Buells.  But you know what?  After awhile it's like repeating the same ole crap to my kids.  You just get tired of saying the same old things over and over again.  To me this argument about Buell vs anyone else is like one guy calling the sky blue while the other guy cries BS, the grass is green!  Erik's uncompromising, single minded mission serves a passionate niche market.  I doesn't matter to me where Buell sells their bikes but I will tell you one thing.  The local HD/Buell dealer has 3 liter bikes they took in as trades on XB's and 1125R's.

[Oilhed]

I've always liked Buell.  I test rode the M2 Cyclone back in 2000 and liked it.  Didn't get one because of the scarey rumors and having to deal with a HD dealer.  I bought a BMW.  I've since sold the BMW and got a Ducati.  My fears of another Italian bike were put to rest by a network of multi brand European dealers.  I test rode the new Uly and loved it.  No rumors this time.  Still don't want to deal with the HD dealer.  Black sheep, in the corner status with one salesman and one tech while still paying HD premuim prices is just just wrong for this brand.  The 1125 is very sexy but the BIG air scoops are a deal killer for me.  I'd still like a Uly or XT.  Is my Euro-dealer sold them and took trades I might be there now.

[Thunderbox]

Spoken like a true Buell apologist.  

If Buells don't sell well, don't blame HD. Blame Buell.

The hard truth is Buell is not a belly button motorcycle company.  Everyone has a belly button.  Buells on the other hand are not for everyone and you may argue not for anyone.  But we who chose Buells did so because of the things they do differently that make them unique.  We thrive on the uniqueness of the mark.  The very essence of why we love these bikes. Most of us may not listen to the top 20 hits either.  I hope Buell remains in business for a long time and and continue to resist the ever present pressure to go the other way.  It's like owning a Chev or a Volvo.  Both good cars but one of those is not what one would discribe as mainstream.  I don't really get the point of coming on line and complaining about Buells or the way they are made or who owns the company.  If you have a Buell you are not happy with, trade it sell it or burn the thing.  But please quite telling us who love them that we have some genetic fault and need to change our opinion of the brand.  Here's the hard fact.  Some people are Buell riders.   Get over it.  Because we can't

[goodhawk]

I think the main point is , with a not very significant change there would be a bigger market.  would that lead to a solider Buell company ?

myself, I'd like an 1125 with 3 " longer frame - more gas in tank , standard rad. placement, better  Sport - Tourer.  the Lightning Long is very interesting in that catagory.

[Thunderbox]

I think the main point is , with a not very significant change there would be a bigger market.  would that lead to a solider Buell company ?

myself, I'd like an 1125 with 3 " longer frame - more gas in tank , standard rad. placement, better  Sport - Tourer.  the Lightning Long is very interesting in that catagory.

I think you have helped me with the main point.  If you want a motorcycle as you are saying why are you looking at the Buell because it ain't doing it for you.  They could build Honda clones which may or maynot sell more bikes  but thats not what Buells are about.  If they did that it would be the end of the Buell Motorcycle Company in very short order.  I don't see that as being more solid.  They have taken a different drum beat and we like it.  If you don't we totally understand.  You can buy anything you want but the real reason you don't buy a Buell based on it's merit is your friends won't understand why you are doing this.  You need to justify your purchase with HP and RPM figures from a spec sheet.  We do it totaly with a big sh t eating grin because that's what the Buell is about.  Quit worrying about the belly button bikes and the peer pressure and love em or leave em.  Get with it and welcome to the exclusive club of Buell riders.

[BobW]

It is amazing that goodhawks non "anti buell" synopsis could result in such a BS reply. Buell is fully owned by HD and that makes it far from some back yard garage built baby brand. It's not bashing Buell nor their current owners to comment on a wish list to make a desired future bike model. Nice to be able to read adult posts on the pro/cons and what if's. Group Think Mentality.

Cheers and safe travels.

[Thunderbox]

You may consider it a BS reply and I couldn't care less.  I was simply saying how sick and tired I am of people wishing Buells were something else.  If you want something else fine go buy one.  To say Buells are not a limited production motorcycle is like saying becuase GM is a big company and the small group of Corvette owners are nothing special is pretty lame.  Yes the Buell is an exclusive little toy.  I have never infered that this was in responce to Buell Bashing either.  

[Brad1445]

I think you have helped me with the main point.  If you want a motorcycle as you are saying why are you looking at the Buell because it ain't doing it for you.  They could build Honda clones which may or maynot sell more bikes  but thats not what Buells are about.  If they did that it would be the end of the Buell Motorcycle Company in very short order.  I don't see that as being more solid.  They have taken a different drum beat and we like it.  If you don't we totally understand.  You can buy anything you want but the real reason you don't buy a Buell based on it's merit is your friends won't understand why you are doing this.  You need to justify your purchase with HP and RPM figures from a spec sheet.  We do it totaly with a big sh t eating grin because that's what the Buell is about.  Quit worrying about the belly button bikes and the peer pressure and love em or leave em.  Get with it and welcome to the exclusive club of Buell riders.

I have bought 5 new Buells in my life so I think I have earned a voice.  I think much of what you said 'USED' to be true about Buell/  Bikes that worked in their own way I loved them.

BUt recent criticism of Buell is earned and I think many hold back their true honest feelings.

Buell has lost their way.  A rotax engine is a wonderful thing yet even with that gift from God messed up their bike line.

IF the bike was rushed, or done on the cheep whatever the reason it is no longer a well thought out package.  Its a Frankenbike that has way too many issues and I'm not talking personality.  Wether it's stupidity or laziness I think its a clear demonstration why Americans don't manufacture things any more.  I think it's sad that people don't take pride in their work are stand up to the boss when they see them leading the company into oblivion.  I have always bought American products religiously.  Buell has taken this small group for granted that they would buy anything they make.  Brand Loyalty can only go so far so I have even removed the Buell stickers off my truck and no longer where my Buell apparel.  They are an embarrassment. The Edsel danced to it's own beat too.

The Buell club was once cool, now its a rolling testimony to greed and laziness.  Where is the pride in that.

[Kootenanny]

BUt recent criticism of Buell is earned and I think many hold back their true honest feelings.

Buell has lost their way.  A rotax engine is a wonderful thing yet even with that gift from God messed up their bike line.

...Brand Loyalty can only go so far so I have even removed the Buell stickers off my truck and no longer where my Buell apparel.  They are an embarrassment. The Edsel danced to it's own beat too.

Wow, you really don't like those pods!

[Thunderbox]

I am with you on that score Brad.  I was not defending the 1125 Helicon.  It looses much of what the Buell concept was.  Simplicity, ease of maintenance and great fuel economy to mention a few.  It is those who have influenced Buell into going with the new engine making it into a more, if you can forgive the expression, mainsteam bike.  They now have there "real true sportbike" but have lost much in the process.  I am still wearing my Buell clothes and will for the time being.

If Buell continues to sell quantities of the XB engined bikes they will continue to sell them long into the future.  So get out there people and buy an XB of some type.

[Brad1445]

Wow, you really don't like those pods!

Don't you think they could have tried just a little?  That engine deserved a design equal to it not a parts bin scrap pile approach.

The XB Buells did rock because they were a comprehensive design.   I don't think the pods would be a point of discussion if they were part of an overall design and not tacked on to a 5 year old frame and tail.  Lets not even talk about the bobble head fairing comically large to compensate for the tacked on pods.

I call do over, and i'll buy one!

[st ryder]

...I am still wearing my Buell clothes and will for the time being....

Boutiquey elitist!!

[Thunderbox]

Boutiquey elitist!!

Okay so it's really just gloves and a t-shirt lol

[Bueller]

This may interest you Brad

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20080314671

If you get in good with your dealer you may get the first on offer.

[mugwump58]

Will Cagiva be first?

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/20february09_cagiva_elefant.htm

[Brad1445]

This may interest you Brad

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20080314671

If you get in good with your dealer you may get the first on offer.

That will be interesting to see for sure.  And that Cagiva is bad ass too.

I would love to see a bike from America knock the world back with a winner in every way.  That don't mean making a boring bike as some fear, Ducati makes bikes that large numbers of people love yet keeps them exclusive through price and high levels of features and technology.