Future Uly with 1125 Motor?

[R Doug]

Of course we know the answer is yes.  But, check out what Buell's Director of Communications has to say about expanding the use of the 1125...

(go to the 6 min. mark)



Uly XT w/ the 1125 please.  Thank you.  

[Rogue]

Given the mission of the Uly, I don't understand why anyone would need the 1125R motor in it?

How many Uly owners will go faster than 120 mph?  

Honestly, the 1125R motor has similar torque as the Thunderstorm up until it hits about 8k RPM.  That's when it takes on a whole new dimension because the Helicon engine has the headroom and top end horsespower sportbikes are known for.  But in a Uly?  It doesn't make sense.  This is why BMW doesn't make a K1200GS, nor does Ducati make a Multistrada with the 1098 motor!  

In my opinion, the Thunderstorm needs a closer ratio 6-speed, maybe another 1k RPM, and maybe 10 more rwhp.  All this as long as it does NOT increase any maintenance on itself.  Why would you want the complexity of liquid cooling, valve inspection intervals, added weight & cost, when you will rarely use the extra RPM and top end power?    The Uly is already plenty fast for its mission.

[R Doug]

What's wrong with wanting a proper sport motor in a sport-touring bike?  And I should clarify, I'm talking about the Uly XT, not the X.  

Wanting the Rotax mill in the Uly has nothing to do with speed or horsepower for me.  Quite simply, it would be nice to have something that can spool up quickly and be able to easily match RPMs to the rear wheel speed during spirited rides.  I've tried blipping the throttle on a Thunderstorm during several test rides and the motor is too lethargic when accelerating and matching revs during downshifting.  I'm not saying it has to be the 1125 from the CR or the R, it should be a detuned version of that motor.  

And, with all due respect, comparring the Multi's 1100 w/ the Uly's Thunderstorm is not even fair.  There's nothing wrong with the 1100 in the Multi.  I'd take that twin any day of the week in a Uly.  The Thunderstrom is a narrow angle twin made for a cruiser, the 1100 is an L-twin made for a sportbike.  And it's not fair to compare a Uly XT to a GS, heck, even the X version doesn't really compare.  The XT is more like a Triumph Tiger (which has a proper sport motor).  Besides, BMW's boxer twin is still better than a Thunderstorm even if it isn't my cup of tea.  

When I'm ready to trade the Super Duke for something a little more grown up, it will be a Uly XT if they put the right motor in it.  It not, I'll have to venture up to Pittsburgh and pick up a Multi, or a Tiger.  Then again, there are rumors that KTM will be brining the touring version of the SM to the US.  I already know how much I love that motor.  

[goodhawk]

You're right, of course - Buell would be niftier with a different engine, I'm sure upper managem ( Eric ) toatally realizes that.  BUT, of course, $$$.

I' d prefer other than the Duc., just from maint. point of view. say a 750 version of the Rotax . . .

[Rincewind]

I would sit up and take notice if they put the Helicon in a Ulysses.  I've tested the Uly on a number of occasions and just can't gel with the motor.

[BobW]

Rogue, I think the interview answered that question (why not more 1125) very well when they said customers (like you and many others) like the current platform for a specific mission parameter(s), but Buell will add the new motor to more models.

In my never ceasing quest to find the one "do it all" bike (or as close as possible) your comments about the tranny illustrate a good example of the "wish list" we all have and then the pro/cons of each bike we compare to that list. I spoke with an 08 12X rider up in the mountains yesterday while we both met while enjoying a nice December ride. He loves his Buell, but had recently done the "9" gear swap for what he felt made the bike even better in the very tight twisty roads in our area. The rider he purchased it from had sold it to buy a new XT as he felt the lower height, etc., was a better fit. I think the bottom line for HD and any other company is to listen to what customers want and help them purchase like models and/or options from their OEM that make for more happy customers.... Your defending the model as you like it is admirable, but HD already owns all the parts/components, so they will gain more sales with a more competitive line as defined by new customers VS saying people shouldn't look elsewhere for other/different qualities their current models don't incorporate. Using only one persons standards will make for Comrad Rogue making us all buy Volgas    

[R Doug]

Rogue, I didn't mean to be so harsh on the Uly Thunderstorm.  I think Rincewind said it best by saying he wasn't able to gel w/ the motor.  That's my take too.  

I'm so passionate about it because I REALLY want to love own a Uly.  I don't have a local Duc or Triumph dealer, but I do have a local Buell dealer.  And, I really don't like buying bikes where I can't have them serviced in the immediate area.  I've tried it and it's not the ideal for me.  

If my riding style were different, I could totally see where the current Uly would be perfect for me.  But, I still get a very spirited riding burr up my arse when I'm out and I must have a sportier mill.  Perhapes the XT could get a rotax and the X can keep the Thunderstrom.  

[Rogue]

I understand what you all are saying.  Yes the XT may be a good recepient for the 1125R motor.  I was focused on the X.  

I like both the Thunderstorm and Helicon.  I think each one has their own strengths and weaknesses.  The Helicon is a great sportbike motor though and it on the 1125R is the Firebolt that everyone expected.  I guess you can call it the Firebolt, unleashed!  

Compared to the Ducati L-twin aircooled motor, the L-twin is smoother and has another 1k+ revs in it.  But it lags behind on power and torque to the Thunderstorm.  However, at revs, both engines are nearly as smooth.  At idle, it's obvious which one purrs.  But the Ducati penalizes its owner with 6k mile major service intervals.  To me, I prefer the Thunderstorm.  I think BMW got it right with their R1200S motor as fitted on the R1200S.  It's 4-valve head allows it to breath 122 bhp at over 8k RPM, matched to its close ratio 6-speed, this is where the Thunderstorm needs to be right now.  Even though the BMW motor requires 6k mile valve inspections, having the cylinders out on its sides makes it easier than most.  If Buell can get the Thunderstorm up to par, I think it would make one of the best engines overall in terms of power, simplicity, low weight, and cost.  

[R Doug]

But the Ducati penalizes its owner with 6k mile major service intervals.  

As a previous owner of an ST3, I know what you mean.  It was a labor (to my wallet) of love.  

[Hickey]

Having test ridden a Ulysses I would agree with the sentiment of liking the bike, but being put off by the motor.  I really do understand the appeal of the motor and why so many folks like it.  No valve adjustments and great economy!     But I just couldn't get into the Thunderstorm groove.

On the other hand, if Buell were to stuff the 1125 motor into a chassis that is something like the Ulysses, that would be something I'd be excited about.  However, that 1125 motor would need to be retuned to deliver better economy than it gets in the R or CR versions.  Perhaps a larger frame/tank too.

Would this be an adventure bike?  Nope.  I'm thinking something more along the lines of the latest Tiger or the Multistrada.  A big, tall, comfy, upright standard/sporty bike with some touring options.  This would be a pavement bike that can handle potholes with ease and perhaps venture down the occasional gravel road.  

For a big dual sport adventure bike, I think they ought to keep the Thunderstorm engine, but set up the chassis with more off road bias.  Perhaps giving it a 21" front wheel and 18" rear.  Basically make it into something like the GS1200, but with a Buell twist.

[Kootenanny]

OK, there must be something wrong with me...I LIKE the air-cooled Buell engine.  I can appreciate the Helicon, but I certainly have no desire to replace my XB9R Firebolt with an 1125R; I really like the XB12XT, and again I think I'd prefer it with the Thunderstorm engine.

Now, if they made, say, a 750cc version of the Helicon, with around the same power as my XB9R engine, and used that for an XB750R, say less than 350 lb, well...THAT would get my attention!  As it is, about the only bike I've seen (and I've yet to actually see one!) that interests me at all as a replacement for my 'Bolt is the 690 Duke...and that might well change if I ever get to ride one (or even see one, for that matter).

[Hickey]

OK, there must be something wrong with me...I LIKE the air-cooled Buell engine.  I can appreciate the Helicon, but I certainly have no desire to replace my XB9R Firebolt with an 1125R; I really like the XB12XT, and again I think I'd prefer it with the Thunderstorm engine.

Now, if they made, say, a 750cc version of the Helicon, with around the same power as my XB9R engine, and used that for an XB750R, say less than 350 lb, well...THAT would get my attention!  As it is, about the only bike I've seen (and I've yet to actually see one!) that interests me at all as a replacement for my 'Bolt is the 690 Duke...and that might well change if I ever get to ride one (or even see one, for that matter).

Ooo...  A 750-800cc version of the Helicon engine?  Now that you mention it, I really like that idea.  Truthfully I don't need the full power of the 1125 and I would like the (hopefully) improved fuel economy of a smaller motor.  

[mugwump58]

So what's the scheduled maintenance for the 1125?

[chornbe]

I think he made excellent points regarding ease of use, ease of maintenance and broad, consistent power delivery. I know I'm comparing grapefruits and clementines, but all of those points are what I love most about my Sportie. I think the XT is just fine with the air-cooled engine. OR... if they want to find a way to develop hydraulic valves into a water cooled engine... ya know, like *every* other manufacturer has some models with... then that would still keep that ideal in place. In any case, I think a big bore twin is the way to go for the Ulie... torque and long-stroke feel... water or air cooled is immaterial.

[Thunderbox]

Wake up and smell the roses people.  The Uly is already the best selling Buell ever.  Why would they want to fuck with that kind of success.  I doubt you will see a Uly with the Helicon engine with 146 HP.  Not needed and quite frankly I wouldn't think of buying a newer Uly if it had that engine.  There are many more like me I am sure.  Everything we hold important with the Uly would be gone, first off less torque, valve adjustment, more boken belts, less fuel range, more complicated a machine.  Who wants it.

[BobW]

Good points Thunderbox.

There are so many business facets to this, but I'll try not to stray too far. I guess I can't quite wrap my arms around guys being so worried that other people, as in new customers, may be interested in an additional/different offering from Buell. You and "many others" are good customers to be kept, but the raw numbers of overall sales are very small. I would think selling more product to more customers would be a good thing for the Motor Company. I think these motors also have possible applications in their recently purchased Italian brands as well. The air cooled motors (for all OEM's) will face even tougher emission/heat/noise mandates, so having new technology in house will be prudent IMO.

I have enjoyed riding so many great bikes for well over 40 years. Too many great brands are long gone because of "all the above" reasons, mostly not being able to adapt to remain solvent. Anyone ever think they'd see the "Big 3" licking the sweat off Congress' balls for $. HD is smart and can build anything as well as any OEM. With the Asian hoard making the UJM's look like a small marketing blip, I think they know they must play their A Game in every nook and crannies available to them. The Gravy Train won't carry that freight any more.

Cheers  

[Thunderbox]

Good points Thunderbox.

There are so many business facets to this, but I'll try not to stray too far. I guess I can't quite wrap my arms around guys being so worried that other people, as in new customers, may be interested in an additional/different offering from Buell. You and "many others" are good customers to be kept, but the raw numbers of overall sales are very small. I would think selling more product to more customers would be a good thing for the Motor Company. I think these motors also have possible applications in their recently purchased Italian brands as well. The air cooled motors (for all OEM's) will face even tougher emission/heat/noise mandates, so having new technology in house will be prudent IMO.

I have enjoyed riding so many great bikes for well over 40 years. Too many great brands are long gone because of "all the above" reasons, mostly not being able to adapt to remain solvent. Anyone ever think they'd see the "Big 3" licking the sweat off Congress' balls for $. HD is smart and can build anything as well as any OEM. With the Asian hoard making the UJM's look like a small marketing blip, I think they know they must play their A Game in every nook and crannies available to them. The Gravy Train won't carry that freight any more.

Cheers  

I couldn't agree with you more BobW but the last time I looked Buell was selling a bike with the New Engine in 2 different models.  Like I said the Uly is the best selling bike Buell has ever marketed.  I know if I were them, I wouldn't want to change it right now.  Having said that Buell is also among the few bike manufacturers to record an increase in sales this past year.  12.5% increase which is substantial.  I think they have a pretty good handle on the demographics of the Buell buyers.  I just want to go for a ride and enjoy but with temps in the -41.8 F yesterday I think I will have to pass.

[R Doug]

I just want to go for a ride and enjoy but with temps in the -41.8 F yesterday I think I will have to pass.

   I'd pass too.  That's COLD!

Here's something funny in regards to my previous post basing the current Uly motor...

The wife recently gave me blessing to start saving up for a third bike.  I want a touring bike and since I wouldn't have to replace the Super Duke, I would actually prefer to have the Thunderstorm motor in the Uly.  If I were replacing the Super Duke,  I would want something that gives me a little bit of what I would be missing in the KTM and add a better touring platform.  My frustration comes from trying to get one bike that would do everything for me.  Since I'll be able to keep the sporty 999cc in the Super Duke, I wouldn't need that in a touring bike.  


If Buell does add the Rotax to the Uly, it would be best if it kept both engines as choices somehow or use a smaller displacement Rotax.  

[BlueRidgeKat]

I would sit up and take notice if they put the Helicon in a Ulysses.  I've tested the Uly on a number of occasions and just can't gel with the motor.

Same here.

I wanted to like the Uly so much and the idea of having a American Buell. It was comfy, handled well, I like the look of it and it fit me well but ended up choosing the V-Strom. Not so much because of the Uly engine but the damn cooling of it. That stupid screaming cooling fan was just annoying. Even when you stop the engine the bitch will at times still be screaming. If thats the best Buell can do for cooling the rear cylinder or whatever it is supposed to be cooling, then I'll pass. It also seemed it was blowing alot of the heat on my leg or something, maybe you get used to it or maybe its just hot all the time.

Anyway to get back on the topic of the 1125 in a Uly. De-tune it and offer as a option or however they decide to use it and I'll give the Uly another try.

I'm sure Uly owners love them but it seems that everytime I have seen some comparison of the Uly with other somewhat similar bikes that the Uly always finishes last and its always because of the engine getting such low marks.  

[Thunderbox]

Same here.

I wanted to like the Uly so much and the idea of having a American Buell. It was comfy, handled well, I like the look of it and it fit me well but ended up choosing the V-Strom. Not so much because of the Uly engine but the damn cooling of it. That stupid screaming cooling fan was just annoying. Even when you stop the engine the bitch will at times still be screaming. If thats the best Buell can do for cooling the rear cylinder or whatever it is supposed to be cooling, then I'll pass. It also seemed it was blowing alot of the heat on my leg or something, maybe you get used to it or maybe its just hot all the time.

Anyway to get back on the topic of the 1125 in a Uly. De-tune it and offer as a option or however they decide to use it and I'll give the Uly another try.

I'm sure Uly owners love them but it seems that everytime I have seen some comparison of the Uly with other somewhat similar bikes that the Uly always finishes last and its always because of the engine getting such low marks.  

Your only complaint was the fan?  Give your head a shake, make the adjustment and forgetaboutit.  I didn't like the fan, thank god the priorities are in the correct order.  Forget it's a much better handling bike than others, forget it gets the best fuel economy in it's class, forget it has the best 2 up handling of any similar bike, forget it comes with a 2 year warranty new, forget it has one of the best seating position in the industry and who knows what else.  I just can't understand this constant whining about the Uly fan simply because it makes a sound when it is on.  I understand everyone has there own likes and dislikes but I can say with a certainty that the things the Uly does better than any other bike is well worth the sound that the fan generates.  It's different but it certainly is not a problem IMHO

[Rogue]

The Buell XB fans was put in there for a distinct purpose.   Buell found that rear cylinder temperatures get nighty high even after engine shutdown, resulting in reduced engine life because the rear cylinder fails first.  In order to equalize the lifespand of each cylinder Buell put the fan in there to evacuate stail, hot air.  The design of the perimeter frame surrounds the rear cylinder so heat becomes even worse in that area.  So I'm quite glad the fan is there to do a job.  It's loud because it moves a lot of air!  Even the 1125R has a similar fan when things get hot back there.  

[BlueRidgeKat]

Your only complaint was the fan?

Fan, heat, vibes and no where near the wind protection of the Strom or at least not for my size and riding position.

Just into quiet and smooth I guess. Dont even like aftermarket exhaust. Pulling up on a bike and stopping and it still has the fan whining and everyone looking at you like WTF is just not the kind of attention I care for. I expect a fan to make a sound but not that kind of one. Maybe the one I tried had a problem that made it louder than most.  

Yes, the bike has alot of +'s that you mention but again, in any comparison I have seen it is always last or near last and its always because of the engine. There must be reasons for that.

Like you said everyone likes what they like.

[Rogue]

Well, Buell sales have been steadily been going up since the introduction of the Ulysses.  For a while, they held steady at 10k units a year.  For a company with no more than 17 engineers, it's a flea in H-D's elephant.  But that is pretty darn amazing for the company's size.  Moto Guzzi for example would be hard pressed to sell 10k motorcycles this year. 

Some people just prefer certain things over others.  However, there are enough to keep the business growing at Buell and most of their bikes have the Thunderstorm engine.

BTW, Cycle World just did a quick review of the most updated Buell Lightning Long and they gave it good points. 

Bottom line is, the Thunderstorm is a different kind of engine that requires a different riding style. 

[Thunderbox]

Fan, heat, vibes and no where near the wind protection of the Strom or at least not for my size and riding position.

Just into quiet and smooth I guess. Dont even like aftermarket exhaust. Pulling up on a bike and stopping and it still has the fan whining and everyone looking at you like WTF is just not the kind of attention I care for. I expect a fan to make a sound but not that kind of one. Maybe the one I tried had a problem that made it louder than most.  

Yes, the bike has alot of +'s that you mention but again, in any comparison I have seen it is always last or near last and its always because of the engine. There must be reasons for that.

Like you said everyone likes what they like.

Unlike many people I don't purchase my bikes because some speed demon thinks it's fast enough for them.  I buy my bikes because I like them and they put a smile on my face.  Having said that I guess it would be accurate to say I bought my Uly for the engine not dispite it.  Those who look down on the Thunderstorm because it doesn't produce 150 hp are the same people who at one time questioned the need for 83 Hp when the Kawasaki Z1 first came out in 1972.  I don't really care that some staff person at Cycle World doesn't like the Thunderstorm.  

Here is a quote I use often because it says it all as far as I'm concerned.

Relatively few riders are lucky enough to discover that there is a lot more to a lifetime of motorcycling enjoyment than just going fast. Those who do... become "motorcyclists".  The rest just happen to be riding a motorcycle.

Nuff Said

[chornbe]

Unlike many people I don't purchase my bikes because some speed demon thinks it's fast enough for them.  I buy my bikes because I like them and they put a smile on my face.  Having said that I guess it would be accurate to say I bought my Uly for the engine not dispite it.  Those who look down on the Thunderstorm because it doesn't produce 150 hp are the same people who at one time questioned the need for 83 Hp when the Kawasaki Z1 first came out in 1972.  I don't really care that some staff person at Cycle World doesn't like the Thunderstorm.  

Here is a quote I use often because it says it all as far as I'm concerned.

Relatively few riders are lucky enough to discover that there is a lot more to a lifetime of motorcycling enjoyment than just going fast. Those who do... become "motorcyclists".  The rest just happen to be riding a motorcycle.

Nuff Said