New York State Police out in full force for Motorcycles

[BigBen]

If you intend to ride to upstate NY make sure all of your papers are in order, motorcycle licences, insurance, inspection, registration and a DOT approved helmet. I ran into one of the checkpoints on Sunday while heading to Marcus Dairy in Danbury CT on i84 east at the Rest Area located near exit 17 (lake Carmel, NY). They had at least three electronic billboards posted instructing all motorcycles to exit at the rest stop. I pulled in the rest stop and found at least 20 other bikes lined and waiting to be inspected by State Trooper and other officials from NYS DOT. In addition to the bikes in line, there were another six bike parked between two police vehicles and their owners seating by the roadside. My guess is that they did not pass the inspections. After waiting in line for about 10 minutes, they finally got to me and checked the bike from front to back, including using a flash light to check the serial number against what's listed on my registration. Needless to say, I passed and continued on to Marcus Dairy to join the festivities. According to one of the troopers this is going to be an ongoing operation for the duration of the summer. So if you are riding through New York State make sure all your documentation are solid or else the man will either fine you or impound your bike.

Ride Often Ride Safe!

Ben

[mygala]

Very cool.

I wish they'd do that around here a little more often.

...and include cars!

[billo]

Wow.  Did you get a sticker or something?  That is a serious inconvenience if you have to pull over every time.  

[Mrs. DantesDame]

Wow.  Did you get a sticker or something?  That is a serious inconvenience if you have to pull over every time.  

+1

[Scratch33]

Very cool.

I'm curious why you think this is a good thing.  Appears to me to be blatant, targeted harassment.

[J.R.]

Appears to me to be blatant, targeted harassment.

As a LEO, I agree completely.  I would have ridden right by that exit.  Motorcycles are not under the same laws as commercial vehicles, which are required to stop for inspections.

[Mrs. DantesDame]

I'm curious why you think this is a good thing.  Appears to me to be blatant, targeted harassment.

The only reason I'd consider it a good thing is if it took uninsured or unlicensed drivers off the road. But it would have to be for ALL vehicles, not just bikes

[desert_rider]

  Motorcycles are not under the same laws as commercial vehicles, which are required to stop for inspections.

That's what I was thinking.  What would the penalties be if you disregarded the signs and continued on?  

[squeezer]

The only reason I'd consider it a good thing is if it took uninsured or unlicensed drivers off the road. But it would have to be for ALL vehicles, not just bikes

+1 on both sentences.

[mugwump58]

I thought this all got sorted out last year.

[ctbandit]

+1 on huge inconvenience.  

[nnjhawk02]

I'm curious why you think this is a good thing.  Appears to me to be blatant, targeted harassment.

EXACTLY

Same thing happened last year on NY Thruway during Americade - Guess its time to get bike inspected

Oh & I will forward this to AMA

[Smoker]

AMA knows. It's in March's edition of American Motorcyclist. Legislator Jack Eddington is fighting the $25,500 grant for motorcycle checkpoints, on the grounds that it constitutes harassment. I'd recommend forwarding your support to him.

[Bravo12]

As a LEO, I agree completely.  I would have ridden right by that exit.  Motorcycles are not under the same laws as commercial vehicles, which are required to stop for inspections.

LEO here, too.  I agree that it's blatant profiling.  You never see them stopping every minivan, or (more importantly) every blacked-out Econoline van.  But, every time someplace's residents complain about motorcycles, every bike that rolls through town gets stopped.  It happens all summer long in New Hope, PA.  The only practical answer for us, as motorcyclists, is to just avoid those areas and not give them any of our business (by buying gas, food, etc), but unfortunately that's the result the locals want - for us to just go away.

I would suggest that any time anybody sees this kind of discrimination in action, they should take notes (when, where, what police agency, posted premise for the stop, etc) and write your congressman and the American Motorcyclist Association, as well as any other motorcycle advocacy groups in your area (or the area of the incident).  There are plenty of politicians and law-makers that ride, too, that wouldn't be too happy to hear about riders' freedom of movement being taken away by some local podunk police department who thinks their residents' tax dollars and revenue-generation via fines are more important than the U.S. Constitution.

[nnjhawk02]

AMA knows. It's in March's edition of American Motorcyclist. Legislator Jack Eddington is fighting the $25,500 grant for motorcycle checkpoints, on the grounds that it constitutes harassment. I'd recommend forwarding your support to him.

Done & thanks

To all NYers - write your Gov & State PoPo

http://161.11.121.121/govemail

http://www.troopers.state.ny.us/Contact_Us/Compliments_or_Complaints/Pro-ConEmail.cfm

[desert_rider]

So, I'll ask again - specifically to the LEO's on the board. What happens if I don't stop?  I'm not a commericial vechicial, why do I have to stop and be detained?

[Stormcrow]

So, I'll ask again - specifically to the LEO's on the board. What happens if I don't stop?  I'm not a commericial vechicial, why do I have to stop and be detained?

NYS Vehicle and Traffic Law:
1102. Obedience to police officers and flagpersons. No person shall
fail or refuse to comply with any lawful order or direction of any
police officer or flagperson or other person duly empowered to regulate
traffic.

[thatguy]

Well that kills me going to New England this summer.

[cgsshorty]

NYS Vehicle and Traffic Law:
1102. Obedience to police officers and flagpersons. No person shall
fail or refuse to comply with any lawful order or direction of any
police officer or flagperson or other person duly empowered to regulate
traffic.

That doesn't apply here.  That refers to a LEO or construction flagperson standing in the road attempting to regulate traffic.  I am a cop 15 years and have never heard of this tactic.  I honestly don't know the answer.  I'd like to say I would ride right by but I think I would stop as a matter of respect for the Troopers manning the checkpoint.  Trust me when I say this is not their idea of law enforcement, they would much rather be out harassing speeders.

[DrD]

NYS Vehicle and Traffic Law:
1102. Obedience to police officers and flagpersons. No person shall
fail or refuse to comply with any lawful order or direction of any
police officer or flagperson or other person duly empowered to regulate
traffic.

The law says to obey police officers and flagpersons.  Doesn't say anything about electronic bulletin boards.  I would have ignored it.  If pulled over, "Bikes?  I thought it was a typo and it was supposed to say busses."

[Ack535]

LEO Here: Michigan's Supreme Court in 1986 found check-lanes of any type to be unconstitutional. Also, a speeding citation or any citation for that matter must be personally served on you. That is why Michigan does not allow photo-speed traps and red light cameras...

Currently, there isn't a whole lot of good reasons to live here, but at least at least we got that going for us! Best of luck in NY!

[Blunder]

Here in CA they have have DUI checkpoints where they also want to see your license, registration and proof of insurance. It is illegal to take any action to avoid a checkpoint so anyone that makes a u-turn is quickly chased down, usually by motorcycle cops.

[scottzilla]

Marcus Dairy-nuff said.

[Bravo12]

NYS Vehicle and Traffic Law:
1102. Obedience to police officers and flagpersons. No person shall
fail or refuse to comply with any lawful order or direction of any
police officer or flagperson or other person duly empowered to regulate
traffic.

Here's the part where the charges get dropped if the entire project is eventually deemed to be harrassment, profiling, or otherwise unconstitutional - that kind of finding would make the initial stop an unlawful order.  This is also the defense for any other charges stemming from the stop/check.  My advice is to stop, otherwise you could be further ticketed and/or arrested, depending on the mood/empathy/understanding of the officer(s) involved.  Just like you cannot resist arrest, even if you know it's wrong, fighting this kind of harassment is best done in a courtroom - you will lose on the street, and just get yourself into more trouble for which you have no defense.  Besides, they usually do these where there are no side-streets to turn on (or they block them off) and u-turns are illegal (so if you bust a U-turn, they got you anyway).

This is so obviously BS, that any phonebook-listed attorney should be able to get you out of anything resulting from this kind of stop/check.  Like I said earlier, they're just hoping it makes bikers go away and not come back.

[Stormcrow]

That doesn't apply here.  That refers to a LEO or construction flagperson standing in the road attempting to regulate traffic.  

While the courts have been very quick to overturn convictions in cases where this charge has been used and the officer was obviously not involved in the regulation of traffic at the time the citation was issued, they have also been somewhat broad in their definition of what does constitute the regulation of traffic. I believe an argument could be made that this activity would constitute such a regulation of traffic. I do not necessarily agree with this, but only bring it up because it would be almost guaranteed that an individual trying to avoid the check point would be charged as such.
That being said....I do not agree with this type of deployment, and firmly believe that it is far too narrow in it's scope and would be easily challenged on those grounds. It should also be understood that, as cgsshorty stated, the Troopers involved are not conducting these types of checkpoints because that is their idea of quality law enforcement work. Someone higher up has directed that detail be conducted. I would even go so far to say that someone with some clout, influence, pull, what have you has convinced the Troop Captain (or higher) that this is important and necessary. Why? We need look no farther that some of the elements within our own community.... pipes that shake windows from their frames, revving to the redline and dumping the clutch to see who can do the best burnout, etc., etc. , etc.
It has been said many times that we (of course the wonderful, law abiding folks here at ST.N excepted) can be our own worst enemies. And, because law enforcement can be so reactive, we end up with just such scenarios.
I think I've exceeded my single post word limit. I need a drink.

[J.R.]

Here in CA they have have DUI checkpoints where they also want to see your license, registration and proof of insurance. It is illegal to take any action to avoid a checkpoint so anyone that makes a u-turn is quickly chased down, usually by motorcycle cops.

This is different because EVERY vehicle is stopped.  Not only motorcycles, not only dark tinted caddies, not only VW busses with smoke pouring out the windows.  

The NY tactic would not be legal because they are targeting a specific group, IE harassment.  There is no perceived danger to the public because you're riding a motorcycle.  As far as being charged with something, I highly doubt you could.  There is no law in VA that I can think of you could be charged with for failing to exit.  

[njcaponut]

Marcus Dairy-nuff said.

Agreed.....Last time I went was about 6 years ago and they were pulling this sh** up there (NY and CT)...... Havent gone since.
OTOH, I've been going to Americade for about 10 years and never had a problem.

[cjgauthier]

         
           If your legally licensed, insured, and registered, what is the penalty is for not having travel papers in order?

[Scratch33]

Ihre Ausweis sind nicht richtig!

[scottzilla]

Would like to point out that in addition to calling/writing your congressperson, a simpler, more effective step would be to file a complaint directly with the NY State Police.  Someone up in the chain made the decision to pull this bs and one thing cops can't stand is a blemish on their record.  

[marc11]

I've contacted the AMA, I suggest each and every person do the same:

http://www.amadirectlink.com/email.asp

This is just unacceptable.  Stop all vehicles, fine by me.  Stop a bike speeding, loud pipes, hidden plate, no problem, stopping just bikes, just because?  BS.  What if the sign read "Honda Cars Stop Here" or "African American Males Under 25 Must Exit" how well would that fly?  It wouldn't, and stopping just bikes with no just cause is total BS and illegal IMHO.

[Rebeltown]

If you know it's coming far enough in advance, find yourself a nice 18 wheeler or bus and put him between you and the checkpoint.  I've done it and gotten away with it on a 4 laner...  Not that I wasn't legal but because I was in a hurry!

[Thelazyone]

I guess have your shit in order and don't worry about the what if.

[STNY]

I guess have your shit in order and don't worry about the what if.

+1 with having your shit in order!

I thought last year was the final Marcus Dairy gathering?

[scottzilla]

+1 with having your shit in order!

I thought last year was the final Marcus Dairy gathering?

I think they are celebrating their 10 year final gathering anniversary.

[mwt]

I guess have your shit in order and don't worry about the what if.

  +2

    A group of us riding got "detained" a few years ago in New York during a similar exercise....A quick check for proper registration and state inspection and we were off. Didn't hold us up for very long. All of us at the time had aftermarket slipons, but they're not that loud especially when idling or "normal" speeds.

[marc11]

Having your shit in order is not the point.  You shouldn't be riding or driving without your shit in order, period.  The point is, we, as a group, should not accept being singled out.

[spd2918]

It's clearly unconstitutional.  You can't stop everyone just to see if they are breaking the law (except for a Terry Stop, which requires specific reasonable suspicion).

When some departments order their officers to do stupid stuff like this it makes us all look bad.

States sometimes do things deemed constitutionally questionable until a court case goes to the feds.  Then they will be smacked down.  For instance, some states don't allow concealed carry for out of state police officers.  Since there is a federal law that allows it, I disregard the state law.

[thatguy]

Could you explain the "Terry Stop"?

[spd2918]

I'd rather, but I will.

An officer can stop someone if he reasonably believes that person:

1.  Has just committed a crime
2.  Is committing a crime
3.  Is about to commit a crime

Stopping everyone on a motorcycle is not a Terry Stop because it is not specific to the individual, the infractions listed are not crimes, and the officer can not reasonably believe everyone on a motorcycle is / was / is about to commit a crime.  If the cops were on the lookout for a bank robber riding a silver Honda ST1300 wearing a white helmet and the officer sees such a rider within the area and time frame of the robbery, then a Terry Stop can legally occur (ie, they can stop you for just matching the description).

Google it.

[thatguy]

Not questioning you,just curious as I'd never heard that before.

[802er]

Article on the subject from 2008:  
http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=1536&issue_id=72008

State troopers, along with officers from the Dutchess County Sheriff’s Office and the East Fishkill and Kent Police Departments, conducted a motorcycle checkpoint at a rest area 17 miles west of the Connecticut state line. The checkpoint was conducted concurrently with an annual motorcycle event held approximately 25 miles to the east in Connecticut. This ensured a sufficient volume of motorcycle traffic to justify the substantial number of resources involved. Also participating in the checkpoint were investigators from the State Police Special Investigations Unit (SP-SIU) and the Department of Motor Vehicles Division of Field Investigations Unit (DMV-FIU), both of which specialize in stolen motorcycles.

All motorcyclists were directed by three portable variable message signs (VMSs) to exit the Interstate into the rest area. Once in the rest area, riders were directed to a coned-off area, where they were inspected by members of the State Police Motorcycle Unit, SP-SIU, and DMV-FIU. Traffic tickets were subsequently written by troopers and other law enforcement officers. Safety violations, such as illegal helmets and unlicensed operation, were the primary focus of officers, although riders were cited for other violations as well, including illegal exhaust systems, for example. Investigators inspected selected bikes for suspected vehicle identification number (VIN) issues. Public information and educational materials were distributed to all riders and passengers. In fact, the safety and education aspect was stressed at a preoperation briefing, where all aspects of the detail were discussed.

The NYSP took great care to plan for fleeing motorcyclists and in fact fully expected flights to happen. In an effort to apprehend any such fleeing riders, an NYSP Chevrolet Camaro (a designated chase car) was positioned near the entrance to the rest area. Another patrol vehicle with a license plate reader unit was also positioned near the entrance. At the first exit down the road from the motorcycle checkpoint, the NYSP set up a seat belt checkpoint both to apprehend any fleeing bikers who attempted to jump off at the next available exit and to make use of the personnel waiting for them at that site. Finally, an aerial speed enforcement detail was conducted approximately five miles down the road from the motorcycle checkpoint, both to have aircraft already in the air in the event of a pursuit and to use the aircraft for additional speed enforcement.

"The checkpoint was conducted concurrently with an annual motorcycle event held approximately 25 miles to the east in Connecticut. This ensured a sufficient volume of motorcycle traffic to justify the substantial number of resources involved."


I read that as we will ticket as many people as possible to pay for our effort to educate you, the riding public, about motorcycle safety.  The article also tells a brief story about a NY Trooper killed chasing a fleeing motorcycle, as if it somehow justifies the checkpoints.  It just seems out of context here.  

[DosEquis00]

Having your shit in order is not the point.  You shouldn't be riding or driving without your shit in order, period.  The point is, we, as a group, should not accept being singled out.

+1000 as it is pure harassment!

[FJRski!]

Just another form of harassment.

Make sure your papers are in order and get over it.

I can't tell you how many times I've been stopped just because a Leo want to check and see if all my papers were in order.  Best one yet, one time I got stopped riding a mostly white Yamaha enduro because they were looking for a red Suzuki street bike that had just been stolen about 25 miles away.  Amazing what you can do with a spray can in about 25 minutes.  LOL

[brockep]

Is New York trying to get everyone to move from the State.  All the taxes and everything else makes Iowa seem more and more attractive.

[TuffguyF4i]

Gotta love revenue generation from the poplulation that works and minds their own business (ie people that ride).

Keep in mind, if you are from out of state, in-state inspection criteria do not apply and cannot be enforced.

[TuffguyF4i]

"The NYSP took great care to plan for fleeing motorcyclists and in fact fully expected flights to happen. In an effort to apprehend any such fleeing riders, an NYSP Chevrolet Camaro (a designated chase car) was positioned near the entrance to the rest area. Another patrol vehicle with a license plate reader unit was also positioned near the entrance. At the first exit down the road from the motorcycle checkpoint, the NYSP set up a seat belt checkpoint both to apprehend any fleeing bikers who attempted to jump off at the next available exit and to make use of the personnel waiting for them at that site. Finally, an aerial speed enforcement detail was conducted approximately five miles down the road from the motorcycle checkpoint, both to have aircraft already in the air in the event of a pursuit and to use the aircraft for additional speed enforcement."

.....and what do you charge that person with if they blow by the stop and have all their papers in order?  

[FJR1300]

That's what I was thinking.  What would the penalties be if you disregarded the signs and continued on?  

My guess is you could be ticketed or arrested for failure to obey the direction of a peace officer.  He mentioned it was State Troopers doing the inspections... not commercial vehicle enforcement officers.

[marc11]

I'd like to know what the hell this cost us tax payers...multiple agencies, air support....and to think, they found a perfect time to do this when no other violent crime was being committed anywhere in the tri-county area.  It is so freaking great that every other drug dealer, murderer, child molester and petty thief spent Sunday home so that a vast number of resources could be dedicated in clearing the highways of menacing motorcyclists.

And what of CT?  How grateful THEY must be for our great law enforcement officials and our tax dollars for intercepting these brutal motorcyclists before entering their state with *gasp* and expired inspection sticker.

Farking a-holes from the top down.  This is the best use of tax payer law enforcement dollars, clearly...

[FJR1300]

As a LEO, I agree completely.  I would have ridden right by that exit.  Motorcycles are not under the same laws as commercial vehicles, which are required to stop for inspections.

As a LEO too... I can't believe your comment.  Yes... it might be targeted, but the officers were just following their orders.  If I was ordered to do the inspections, I would and if I caught you doing what you stated you would have done... I would have no problem arresting you.

As I mentioned in a previous post... I believe the OP stated it was State Troopers doing the inspections.  If this happened in Missouri and you failed to stop, it would considered the same as failure to obey a peace officer.

[hobbes]

Article on the subject from 2008:  
http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=1536&issue_id=72008



"The checkpoint was conducted concurrently with an annual motorcycle event held approximately 25 miles to the east in Connecticut. This ensured a sufficient volume of motorcycle traffic to justify the substantial number of resources involved."


I read that as we will ticket as many people as possible to pay for our effort to educate you, the riding public, about motorcycle safety.  The article also tells a brief story about a NY Trooper killed chasing a fleeing motorcycle, as if it somehow justifies the checkpoints.  It just seems out of context here.  

That's a monumental waste of money.

[garry]

It's clearly unconstitutional.  You can't stop everyone just to see if they are breaking the law (except for a Terry Stop, which requires specific reasonable suspicion).

Might be unconstitutional, but that doesn't mean squat. Consider DUI checkpoints as one example. Unless they are allowed to assume everyone on the road after 10pm (or whatever) must be drunk or drinking.

[marc11]

Might be unconstitutional, but that doesn't mean squat. Consider DUI checkpoints as one example. Unless they are allowed to assume everyone on the road after 10pm (or whatever) must be drunk or drinking.

My brother in law was a cop (retired) and he had a motto, "anyone driving after 2 AM was either a thief or drunk" take it for what it is.

[spd2918]

I'd like to know what the hell this cost us tax payers...multiple agencies, air support....

Umm...nothing.  It probably generated revenue.

Iand to think, they found a perfect time to do this when no other violent crime was being committed anywhere in the tri-county area.  It is so freaking great that every other drug dealer, murderer, child molester and petty thief spent Sunday home so that a vast number of resources could be dedicated in clearing the highways of menacing motorcyclists.

These are usually overtime grants, done in addition to regular enforcement.  I am not sure how many child molesters are investigated by highway troopers.

Might be unconstitutional, but that doesn't mean squat. Consider DUI checkpoints as one example. Unless they are allowed to assume everyone on the road after 10pm (or whatever) must be drunk or drinking.

That's why many (most?)  states don't allow DWI checkpoints.

[802er]

That's why many (most?)  states don't allow DWI checkpoints.

There are only 12 states that have outlawed DWI checkpoints.

[marc11]

Umm...nothing.  It probably generated revenue.



These are usually overtime grants, done in addition to regular enforcement.  I am not sure how many child molesters are investigated by highway troopers.

A) You don't know that.
B) Over time grants...from who would this money come from that it doesn't come from tax payer money in one form or another?  Please tell me?
C) State Troopers here respond to and investigate ALMOST ALL crimes and generally respond to all 911 calls, even if local police respond, many towns have little or no local police pressence.

Great to see you support this.

[nnjhawk02]

As a LEO too... I can't believe your comment.  Yes... it might be targeted, but the officers were just following their orders.  

And so was the German SS - but does it make it right?

The blind being lead by the deaf, dumb & stupid...

Cue > Beatles: Back in the USSR

[nnjhawk02]

As my last post on this topic

I plan on attending Americade & staying w/ a group of HD peeps in the nearby area.  As HD riders (some of which R LEO) they, by HD law have to take hiways, thus they will be stopped by NYST.  I've directed them to tell NYST, on my behalf, to Fcuk Off.

I, as a good STNer, will be on back roads...

Achtung where are ur papers?

[me109g4]

"Only following orders",,,,,,, hmm, where have we heard that before.

Ausweiss!! mach Schnell!!!!

[Ken]

I've contacted the AMA, I suggest each and every person do the same:

http://www.amadirectlink.com/email.asp

This is just unacceptable.  Stop all vehicles, fine by me.  Stop a bike speeding, loud pipes, hidden plate, no problem, stopping just bikes, just because?  BS.  What if the sign read "Honda Cars Stop Here" or "African American Males Under 25 Must Exit" how well would that fly?  It wouldn't, and stopping just bikes with no just cause is total BS and illegal IMHO.

Thanks for the link. I've contacted the AMA about this and will fire off a few emails to our Congressional representatives as well. This type of harassment, and blatant profiling, must be stopped. Surely there are more important things for all these LEO's to be doing. A quick scan of the morning paper will confirm that...

[J.R.]

I would have no problem arresting you.

For what?

[spd2918]

A) You don't know that.
B) Over time grants...from who would this money come from that it doesn't come from tax payer money in one form or another?  Please tell me?
C) State Troopers here respond to and investigate ALMOST ALL crimes and generally respond to all 911 calls, even if local police respond, many towns have little or no local police pressence.

Great to see you support this.

A)  You don't know that I don't know that.
B)  It ends up paying for itself with the money it generates.
C)  You may be right one this one point.  Congrats.

I never wrote I supported this.  Learn to fucking read.

[marc11]

 Learn to fucking read.

Nice language, clearly warranted.

If you do not know the answer to A then you cannot say B pays for itself, the onset, the original intent and the original funding comes from tax payer money.  So boom, you are wrong for A, and as such, wrong on B and as you admit, WRONG on C.  Fools always make themselves known when they open their mouths.

[Ken]

A)  You don't know that I don't know that.
B)  It ends up paying for itself with the money it generates.
C)  You may be right one this one point.  Congrats.

I never wrote I supported this.  Learn to fucking read.

Good grief. Are you sure you're old enough to have a motorcycle endorsement on your license? Got issues? Sure looks that way!  

[TuffguyF4i]

One of the biggest problems i have with this stuff, is that people actually look at this as revenue generation.  It is not more rev. generation than taxes, which take money out of the free market.

[spd2918]

Nice language, clearly warranted.

If you do not know the answer to A then you cannot say B pays for itself, the onset, the original intent and the original funding comes from tax payer money.  So boom, you are wrong for A, and as such, wrong on B and as you admit, WRONG on C.  Fools always make themselves known when they open their mouths.

"Learn to fucking read" was too harsh and I apologize for it.  It was the end of a long day at the police department.  I do very good work for my community and I was not prepared for your assumption that I supported what I believe to be unconstitutional (and had posted as such).

Many on this forum hate the police with all their hearts.  They force hundreds of thousands of good men and women into one narrow mold to satisfy their ignorance.  No, you didn't do this, and you didn't deserve my comment.  Your profession isn't attacked on a daily basis here.  Did you check out the "How to talk to the police" thread?  This is the type of attitude that leads many police officers to grow cynical and hate the general public over time.  Because of how they are treated many become the assholes others assume them to be.  I try to remember that most people support the police and want us to succeed in our mission.  I try not to develop the "us vs everyone" attitude that would make me no better than the haters.

[mygala]

This is the type of attitude that leads many police officers to grow cynical and hate the general public over time.  Because of how they are treated many become the assholes others assume them to be.  I try to remember that most people support the police and want us to succeed in our mission.  I try not to develop the "us vs everyone" attitude that would make me no better than the haters.

Well said.

[desert_rider]

Many on this forum hate the police with all their hearts.  They force hundreds of thousands of good men and women into one narrow mold to satisfy their ignorance.  No, you didn't do this, and you didn't deserve my comment.  Your profession isn't attacked on a daily basis here.  Did you check out the "How to talk to the police" thread?  This is the type of attitude that leads many police officers to grow cynical and hate the general public over time.  Because of how they are treated many become the assholes others assume them to be.  

Then it's time to change professions.

[spd2918]

Then it's time to change professions.

I have struggled with that, believe me.  Ask about anyone in this profession and they will tell you the same.  A lot of people are not thrilled with their jobs for different reasons.  If I could do something else and make the kind of money I currently make I would consider it.  I am now at a point in my career that I have a lot of time off to teach MSF and do big rides.

I have only 10 years until retirement.  I try to focus on that.  I will be 50 years old and free to pursue other paths then.

[desert_rider]

 I am now at a point in my career that I have a lot of time off to teach MSF and do big rides.

Now yer talkin'!  

I see people get burnt out and turning into assholes in my profession, too.  If you can't self-monitor/correct you gotta move on or do some sort of lateral transfer.

[nycbr]

I was in my car last week entering the cross island parkway when a higway patrol officer blocked the ramp.  The road was being closed off for a motorcyle run.  Most of the riders wore Blue Knights vests and most of the bikes were far too loud to have passed an exhaust inspection.  
And while we we waiting, the cop wrote some tickets for expired inspection/registration stickers.  

[BigBen]

Wow.  Did you get a sticker or something?  That is a serious inconvenience if you have to pull over every time.  

They did not give any stickers, I took back roads on the returning trip hoping not to run into another checkpoint.

[BigBen]

As a LEO, I agree completely.  I would have ridden right by that exit.  Motorcycles are not under the same laws as commercial vehicles, which are required to stop for inspections.

You could not just ride past the exit. The had other patrol cars posted down the road and they would come after you. There were at least 15 or so officers conducting the operation.

[zer0netgain]

As a LEO too... I can't believe your comment.  Yes... it might be targeted, but the officers were just following their orders.  If I was ordered to do the inspections, I would and if I caught you doing what you stated you would have done... I would have no problem arresting you.

While laws vary from state to state....

1.  Just following orders is BS.  You should know what currently constitutes a valid checkpoint operation and what does not.  If  you don't, your superiors have failed in their job to keep you abreast of relevant law and case decisions.  Neither you nor your department wants the hassle of a lawsuit over something that should not happen in the first place.

2.  Checkpoints for "inspections" are just about BS, especially when they single out a group of motorists.  Truck drivers accept inspection stops as part of the deal when having a CDL.  I've seen BS checkpoints done for motorcycles at some places because it's really just a crackdown on hooliganism, but to be fair, I recall the cops stopping EVERYONE but bikers had to pull over because they couldn't just whip out their papers from the glovebox.

As you know, probable cause is the benchmark for stopping anyone, anywhere.  A checkpoint gets around probable cause by mandating that EVERYONE is stopped or that every X motorist is stopped.  To single out a class of motorists clearly crosses the line.  If you can check papers and safety equipment on a motorcycle, you could do it on a car just as easily, and I seriously doubt that EVERY car was being stopped at the checkpoint further down the road.

[me109g4]

My sentiments exactly, as a police officer if you know you are doing things that are wrong, and the people you stop know  you  are doing wrong why do you  as a police officer expect a free pass on the situation??? Sorry, it doesnt happen that way,, u wanna yank my chain expect to have it yanked back!

[spd2918]

While laws vary from state to state....

1.  Just following orders is BS.  You should know what currently constitutes a valid checkpoint operation and what does not.  If  you don't, your superiors have failed in their job to keep you abreast of relevant law and case decisions.  Neither you nor your department wants the hassle of a lawsuit over something that should not happen in the first place.

2.  Checkpoints for "inspections" are just about BS, especially when they single out a group of motorists.  Truck drivers accept inspection stops as part of the deal when having a CDL.  I've seen BS checkpoints done for motorcycles at some places because it's really just a crackdown on hooliganism, but to be fair, I recall the cops stopping EVERYONE but bikers had to pull over because they couldn't just whip out their papers from the glovebox.

As you know, probable cause is the benchmark for stopping anyone, anywhere.  A checkpoint gets around probable cause by mandating that EVERYONE is stopped or that every X motorist is stopped.  To single out a class of motorists clearly crosses the line.  If you can check papers and safety equipment on a motorcycle, you could do it on a car just as easily, and I seriously doubt that EVERY car was being stopped at the checkpoint further down the road.

It would be nice if I tell my boss to go screw himself, but that's not an option.  Since it has been pointed out that most states allow checkpoints, it seems a little silly for a lowly police officer to tell his supervisor, the chief, the district attorney, and the state attorney that his own interpretation of the law is is superior to theirs.  Good luck.

[zer0netgain]

It would be nice if I tell my boss to go screw himself, but that's not an option.  Since it has been pointed out that most states allow checkpoints, it seems a little silly for a lowly police officer to tell his supervisor, the chief, the district attorney, and the state attorney that his own interpretation of the law is is superior to theirs.  Good luck.

While I don't dismiss the issue of not crucifying one's livelihood just to be "right"....

....Supervisors, Chiefs of Police, District Attorneys, and State Attorneys are frequently wrong...they just enjoy a position where very few can challenge them.

....Supervisors, Chiefs of Police, District Attorneys, and State Attorneys frequently act out of political motivation (gun control laws being a good example) and not out of what is Constitutional or morally right.

....If men of good conscience won't take a stand against such men, then we are doomed.

[J.R.]

It would be nice if I tell my boss to go screw himself, but that's not an option.  Since it has been pointed out that most states allow checkpoints, it seems a little silly for a lowly police officer to tell his supervisor, the chief, the district attorney, and the state attorney that his own interpretation of the law is is superior to theirs.  Good luck.

In order to do a check point you need to be able to articulate there is a danger to the public.  What danger to the public am I posing by riding a motorcycle?  If your dept told you go out and identify every black male standing on a street corner, for no other reason than they are standing there, and if they walked off without talking to you, detain them, would you do it?  I don't know about you, but I took an oath to uphold the constitution, and if you see something that is blatantly ignoring it, you have a duty to speak up.

[desert_rider]

It would be nice if I tell my boss to go screw himself, but that's not an option.  Since it has been pointed out that most states allow checkpoints, it seems a little silly for a lowly police officer to tell his supervisor, the chief, the district attorney, and the state attorney that his own interpretation of the law is is superior to theirs.  Good luck.

There ARE more tactful ways to tell your boss that you think that something is wrong than telling him to "go screw himself."

[spd2918]

The point is moot because my state doesn't allow them.  Even if it did, these grants are voluntary- so I wouldn't sign up for one.  For the record I have never been told to do something illegal or immoral at my job.

[Pete ST]

 This is change for me - but I dunno why some of you are ragging on the cops on this forum. Believe me I've had more than my fair share of asshole cops but these guys are on our side and disgree with what's going on as much as we do..Yeh they could tell there Boss it's unconstitutional blah blah.. but do you really think they're gonna listen. And let's face it 99% of people won't put there job and family on the line for an issue that is not effecting them directly  - I know I've been there..

[Pete ST]

     IIRC The NY cops got federal grants to finance some of these stops ,so all you guys are paying to get harassed.  It's gonna take a few rallies blocking the Capitol ar summat to get the medias and politicians attention. But it probably won't happen as motorcylists get pissed off behind a keyboard but won't take the time to do something about it.
    Believe it or not NY cops have given presentations to other state police dept's including CT on how to do these stops.
   Some more info from Roadkill the president of Abate. This guy has been active in opposing these stops.

 QUOTE

  "ABATE of New York to Picket the NY Highway Safety Conference

"On Tuesday, October 21st, American Bikers Aimed Toward Education (ABATE of
New York, Inc.) will picket the New York Highway Safety Conference at the
Sheraton Syracuse University Hotel & Conference Center at 801 University
Avenue, Syracuse, NY, where the New York State Police are presenting their
Motorcycle Safety Roadblock Scenario to more than 350 professionals from
local, state, federal and private agencies involved in the effort to reduce
deaths and injuries related to traffic crashes..."

ABATE of New York has obtained an all-day public assembly permit to conduct
an informational picket/protest outside of the Conference Center where the
event is scheduled. With media coverage of our protest, this is an
excellent opportunity for ABATE to achieve "In Your Face" results. In
addition to the simple enjoyment of being able to verbalize ABATE's
dissatisfaction with dedicated fund misassignments and motorcycle-only
roadblocks, we'll be able to publicly argue before the media the irony of
New York State's misdirection of designated motorcycle safety funds to those
very same enforcement efforts being fostered at the New York Highway Safety
Conference being conducted inside, in the blatant face of rising
motorcyclist accident rates. In a nutshell, we should be able to emphasize
that our designated safety funds should be used for safety purposes not
enforcement purposes.

+For the full Press Release, see:
http://www.abateny.org/press/102108picket.pdf

All are welcome to attend the protest.

Ride on.
Roadkill - President
ABATE of New York, Inc.
http://www.roadkillonline.net/imagedb_images/35_8324.JPG"

[zer0netgain]

This is change for me - but I dunno why some of you are ragging on the cops on this forum. Believe me I've had more than my fair share of asshole cops but these guys are on our side and disgree with what's going on as much as we do..Yeh they could tell there Boss it's unconstitutional blah blah.. but do you really think they're gonna listen. And let's face it 99% of people won't put there job and family on the line for an issue that is not effecting them directly  - I know I've been there..

I agree, but we do have the few that like to blurt out "just doing my job," and that chafes me pretty bad.

You can have blood on your hands by just doing your job.  Power brings the moral responsibility to wield it wisely, and the way some people like to talk, it makes me go....  

[Grumbler]

Even though I'm vehemently against those unconstitutional motorcycle checkpoints,
and would definitely want to blow past it, there's not much point in making what's
already a bad situation much, much more complicated for yourself. That could very
well result in being arrested, detained for a period of time, and your motorcycle
towed or impounded. Don't draw attention to yourself, and remain cool, calm, and
collected then, after you're set free, contact and/or write the AMA and so forth.

[spd2918]

You can have blood on your hands by just doing your job.

Let's not get carried away.

[FJR1300]

I agree, but we do have the few that like to blurt out "just doing my job," and that chafes me pretty bad.

 

If the chafing is that bad... get some cream!

[FJR1300]

Even though I'm vehemently against those unconstitutional motorcycle checkpoints,
and would definitely want to blow past it, there's not much point in making what's
already a bad situation much, much more complicated for yourself. That could very
well result in being arrested, detained for a period of time, and your motorcycle
towed or impounded. Don't draw attention to yourself, and remain cool, calm, and
collected then, after you're set free, contact and/or write the AMA and so forth.

Finally... someone with COMMON SENSE.

[TuffguyF4i]

I grew up in NY state.  It would be hard for me to tell you how many times i've run into cops that thought they had huge swinging big ones.  
Upstate NY is also notorious for stops such as the ones that we are talking about.  Growing up, even near Albany, which is rural, there were registration stops all the time.  Sometimes during rush hour.  

[zer0netgain]

 

If the chafing is that bad... get some cream!

Guilty conscience?  

I didn't name names.  

[FJR1300]

Since this is a cop bashing thread... did anyone hear the Supreme Court's ruling on search incident to arrest.  The bad guys (cops) can no longer use search incident to arrest to search a vehicle.  The only area that can be searched now, using search incident to arrest, is the immediate area of where the person was sitting.

[nycbr]

http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=1536&issue_id=72008

I thougth the article had a motorcyclist=criminal tone to it.  Like we are not taxpayers who are entitled to use the same road as everyone else.  

 

[mygala]

Since this is a cop bashing thread... did anyone hear the Supreme Court's ruling on search incident to arrest.  The bad guys (cops) can no longer use search incident to arrest to search a vehicle.  The only area that can be searched now, using search incident to arrest, is the immediate area of where the person was sitting.

I think that ruling is pretty stunning. It's so rare in this post 9/11 world to see ANY type of search and seizure protections expanded, rather than contracted. Now the rest of the passenger compartment is protected by the 4th amendment.

Is it really that big of a deal for traffic officers though? You can still search the immediate area of an occupant for weapons or "disposable" evidence. If you have reasonable cause to suspect contraband, ...and you already have the suspect in your custody, neither they nor the vehicle is going anywhere until you get canine unit and/or valid search warrant.

What would you do before this ruling if the occupants refused to give you access to the trunk? Will you not just use the same procedures for when you want access to the rest of the passenger compartment?

[Windblown]

Many on this forum hate the police with all their hearts.  They force hundreds of thousands of good men and women into one narrow mold to satisfy their ignorance.

Define "Many"  I know it probably seems like a lot but I'd bet it's a very small percentage.  Same with the number of cops who are actually pricks.  In my dealings with cops over the years I've only met two that I considered complete pricks. By far the majority I've met did their jobs in a professional manor, which I appreciate, even if it costs me money.

You're painting with the same broad brush you seem to take exception with.

[FJR1300]

You're painting with the same broad brush you seem to take exception with.

I think that was the intention.

RBFYLO

[zer0netgain]

Since this is a cop bashing thread... did anyone hear the Supreme Court's ruling on search incident to arrest.  The bad guys (cops) can no longer use search incident to arrest to search a vehicle.  The only area that can be searched now, using search incident to arrest, is the immediate area of where the person was sitting.

Respectfully, that is how is SHOULD be.

I wore the badge, and back then (early 1990s) the rule was the area a suspect could realistically reach at the time they were arrested, and my instructors openly stated that you could expand the area greatly when you think of how fast a person can move in one second if they are lunging for something.  So, SITA that would really only apply to the physical reach area of a person now can be expanded to anywhere in a vehicle.

Note that they weren't saying if the guy lunges in X direction, you can argue that SITA applies to the area around where they sat and where they were heading, but they implied a 360 degree circle around the person based on what COULD happen, not what DID happen, during the arrest.

Keep in mind that the LEOs in the wonderful Nazi state of Utah (IIRC, maybe it was Idaho) wanted to impose the practice of arresting EVERY motorist stopped and use SITA to search the vehicle for ANY evidence of a crime and then release the person with a citation if nothing was found.  Thank God the state court had the sense to smack that down as a blatant abuse of the SITA rule and unconstitutional, but it terrifies me that the LEOs of that state felt so comfortable abusing the power entrusted to them like that.

Police power is like a pendulum, as you know.  When we feel police have been given too much power, it gets withdrawn.  When we feel they don't have enough, we grant more.  Frankly, I feel more and more LEOs (nationwide) are demonstrating that they can't respectfully handle the power they've been granted.  If you feel slighted, blame those among you that abuse the power granted.  It's isn't the public's fault and it's not the court's fault when they yank back on the leash.

A point I notice you omitted....

SITA in relation to a vehicle is largely irrelevant.  The police have the option to impound a vehicle post-arrest.  Most every agency has a "vehicle inventory" rule in place to protect them against claims of theft from impounded vehicles.  Granted, these rules typically stop at locked compartments and items in the vehicle, but it's a good faith back door to searching a vehicle without a warrant, and agencies use it to their advantage.  I'm not sure where the line is on bringing a drug sniffing dog by the impound yard to check for contraband, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was allowed since drug dogs sniffing locked containers isn't considered something you need a warrant for.

[Joey Stalin]

Your papers, please.

[sloth911]

No one really answered one of the original questions.

If you are following all traffic rules, speed limit, and have your papers and simply drive past the check point w/ the intent to plead ignorance when (if) you are immediately pulled over, instead of "blowing through", what would the citation be other than a tongue lashing?

I wonder how many stolen  bikes they recover from these stops?

[Black Ice]

2. Truck drivers accept inspection stops as part of the deal when having a CDL.

Yep...    I don't like it, but if it really gets to me, I can always quit and do something else.  (This explains why I don't cut certain other professions any slack for using the excuse "I have a high-stress job.")

[zer0netgain]

No one really answered one of the original questions.

If you are following all traffic rules, speed limit, and have your papers and simply drive past the check point w/ the intent to plead ignorance when (if) you are immediately pulled over, instead of "blowing through", what would the citation be other than a tongue lashing?

I wonder how many stolen  bikes they recover from these stops?

Much of that answer depends on the laws of the state of New York and the disposition of the department and the judges.

Vehicle safety checkpoints are not something one can justify going balls to the wall to enforce.  Checkpoints for drugs would be a different matter.  I remember such a checkpoint in Nebraska where the LEOs were doing the stupid thing of putting up a sign saying there was a drug checkpoint ahead (on the interstate) and they had two guys in mowers sitting at the exit.  You knew they were cops and not maintenance workers because....

1.  Fit, and I mean fit.  Highways workers are easily 20-30 pounds overweight and dress like slobs.
2.  Both wore sunglasses, identical sunglasses.
3.  Both were busy watching the road.
4.  Neither machine was running.

I would have stopped and taken a photo for the humor of it, but I was on a timetable and by the time I thought about it, it was too much trouble to go back.

The "stolen bike" recovery element varies.  A checkpoint done off the beaten path where bikers like to play would likely net more stolen bikes than those on the open highway.

[mygala]

No one really answered one of the original questions.

If you are following all traffic rules, speed limit, and have your papers and simply drive past the check point w/ the intent to plead ignorance when (if) you are immediately pulled over, instead of "blowing through", what would the citation be other than a tongue lashing?

I wonder how many stolen  bikes they recover from these stops?

From the Police Chief Magazine article:

"Eleven motorcyclists did pass the entrance to the rest area without stopping, but once the marked patrol vehicle pulled out behind them, all of them stopped and were inspected (all claimed not to have seen the VMS messages)."

Doesn't say they were cited for anything.

[sloth911]

From the Police Chief Magazine article:

"Eleven motorcyclists did pass the entrance to the rest area without stopping, but once the marked patrol vehicle pulled out behind them, all of them stopped and were inspected (all claimed not to have seen the VMS messages)."

Doesn't say they were cited for anything.

I imagine that "not seeing the sign" is a pretty good defense - I can't count the number of times people without E-Zpasses end up stopped in the E-Zpass lane with the 5x10' giant purple sign that says "E-Zpass only".

[old_fart]

Marcus Dairy-nuff said.

wtf does that mean?
besides how is it germane to the op?

[scottzilla]

wtf does that mean?
besides how is it germane to the op?

It means after 50 years of riders stunting, speeding and general hooligism on their way to Marcus Dairy, the cops are prepared.

[Pete ST]

If any of you are pissed off enough here's yer chance to bitch..

"  +Following is the text of a 5/4/09 Press Release re the subject, with links.
Please attend the picket if you're able:

----------------------------------------------------------

On Wednesday, May 6th, American Bikers Aimed Toward Education (ABATE of New
York, Inc.) and other motorcyclists will picket the Empire State Law Enforcement
Traffic Safety (ESLETS) Conference at the Double Tree Hotel and Conference
Center at 6301 State Route 298, East Syracuse, NY where the New York State
Police are anticipated to present their Motorcycle Safety Roadblock Scenario and
other "Hot Motorcycle Topics" to a broad and diverse cross-section of New York's
law enforcement community.

For nearly two years now, the New York State Police (NYSP) have been conducting
highway roadblocks diverting only motorcyclists from the state's roadways to
perform "safety checks". "Operation 5060" was expanded in 2008 and continues
to-date. Ironically, last year New York State raided $552,000 of dedicated
motorcycle safety funds, created through mandated increased motorcycle
registration costs. In fact, even though State Finance Law explicitly prohibits
it, over the course of the eleven-year existence of the dedicated motorcycle
safety fund, New York State has inappropriately diverted millions of dollars
into the state's general fund.

It remains ABATE of New York's position that, since motorcycles operated in New
York are already required to pass annual safety inspections, the current NYSP
initiative continues to serve only to harass, intimidate and inconvenience
motorcyclists traveling upon the state's roadways. Further, motorcycle-only
roadblocks of this nature are a discriminatory and unconstitutional infringement
upon an individual's right to travel without interference, and an abuse of
discretionary power as acknowledged by the New York State Court of Appeals.
ABATE of New York demands that NYS and the NYSP redirect their combined efforts
toward overall driver education of the presence of motorcyclists on the state's
roadways.

It is also ABATE of New York's position that New York State has inadequately
administered its dedicated motorcycle safety fund designed specifically to
instruct motorcyclists in proper operating techniques and safety initiatives.
There remain insufficient sites statewide to provide motorcycle training and the
cost remains prohibitive in nature. Motorcyclists suffer due to the
underutilization and misapplication of their funds, and a more cost-effective
approach should be implemented, subsidized by these raided funds. ABATE of New
York decries New York State's history of unlawfully diverting motorcyclists'
safety fund money to the general fund, and continues its support of legislative
efforts prohibiting the transfer of dedicated fees into any other fund.

Motorcyclists demand that their dedicated safety funds be used for motorcycle
safety TRAINING initiatives, not motorcycle safety ENFORCEMENT initiatives. The
latter should clearly not precede the former.

ABATE of New York was established in 1974, and incorporated in 1991 as a 501c4
not-for-profit corporation representing the rights of all New York State
motorcyclists.

For further information, contact:

ABATE of New York, Inc.

P.O. Box 300

Walker Valley, NY 12588

(888) 344-4400

www.abateny.org
 
 

[marc11]

Hmm Walker Valley is just 15 min from me, may have to head over with them.

[scottzilla]

Hmm Walker Valley is just 15 min from me, may have to head over with them.

Nah, it will turn into an anti-helmet law rally like most ABATE functions.