Buell vs. air cooled Ducati

[rauchman]

Greetings,

I'm getting a new bike this spring. The Suzuki SV1000S is at or near the top of my list, but the idea of an air cooled Buell or Ducati is appealing.  From what I've read the Buell and Ducati have similar power/torque ratings.  Does anyone have experience w/ these two brands/bikes?  Does anyone have dyno charts comparing the Buell 1200 vs. the Ducati 1000 air cooled engine?  I'm coming off of a Yamaha Roadstar cruiser so a cruiser engine in a sport bike doesn't turn me off.  If Buell ever comes out w/ a Firebolt Long, this would be my ideal Buell.

Thanks,
Ken

[Asphalt_Carver]

Ken,

I was the proud owner of a well modified SV650S and now own a Buell XB12SS (Lightning Long.)  As a die hard Ducati enthusiast, it was very hard not to choose the Duc!  However, the spectacular handling, smooth power delivery and maintenance free belt drive sold me on Buell.  The very cool Sunset Orange paint and matching wheels didn't hurt either.

Ducatis are awesome and I will always cheer for them in MotoGP, but Buell really surprised me with a supremely confident bike in many areas without the high maintenance costs of a Ducati.

I think that you would do well with either bike, but look closely at the Buell.  They really are producing some great machines these days.

[rauchman]

Ken,

I was the proud owner of a well modified SV650S and now own a Buell XB12SS (Lightning Long.)  As a die hard Ducati enthusiast, it was very hard not to choose the Duc!  However, the spectacular handling, smooth power delivery and maintenance free belt drive sold me on Buell.  The very cool Sunset Orange paint and matching wheels didn't hurt either.

Ducatis are awesome and I will always cheer for them in MotoGP, but Buell really surprised me with a supremely confident bike in many areas without the high maintenance costs of a Ducati.

I think that you would do well with either bike, but look closely at the Buell.  They really are producing some great machines these days.

Thanks for the info.  I really like the concept of what Buell is doing.  My problem is they don't yet make a platform that I get all giddy over.  The Ulysess doesn't do it for me.  I've sat on the Lightening Long and like it...except...from what I gather there is no wind protection.  I like the Firebolt....except....the riding position is a little extreme for me (this can be fixed w/ bar risers of some sort) and the gas tank is too small.  This bike is going to be an "everything bike" to me since I can only afford one bike.  I also had an SV650S that I really enjoyed, and from what I can gather, the Buell kind of goes along that path....really nimble w/ good torque for blasting out of corners.  I'm totally fine w/ the Buell engine and the tech they put into the bike is interesting.  Also, as mentioned, LOW MAINTENANCE!!!!  

[Desmo Demon]

Buell has the major advantage in maintenance cost

Did they finally work out all the issues that the Buells had a few years ago? I want to say I remember some models had a long list of recalls on them (late 90's models, maybe).

As for Ducati maintenance, the 2V engines are known to be fairly bulletproof. There is a guy in Florida with a '99 Ducati SS900 that has over 125k miles on it with only regular maintenance done to them. I know of several Supersport, 2V Monsters, and ST2 bikes with well over 50k without anything but regular maintenance done to them. Other than a quirky, one-year charging system, my ST2 has been essentially flawless for 24k+ miles, and I dog the crap out of it.

The 2V engines are a breeze to do your own valve adjustments on them, and the cam belts are quite cheap (Bucci aftermarket belts). Now, if you want to talk about the 4V engines, especially the Desmoquattro engine, that may be a slight bit different story.  

I do like how you posted this in the Buell section, though.  

[Desmo Demon]

Plus, as I understand it, there are aftermarket collets that can increase the valve check intervals by a great deal.

A lot of people figure the engine is fully settled by 12k miles (definitely by 18k), and they only check the valves every 12k miles after that point. I did this with my ST2. The valves looked great at 12k (only one valve out) so I skipped the 18k and did them at 24k. At 24k, I had three shims that needed to be swapped, but they were only out by 0.0005"-0.0015" by my prefered (tighter) clearances. By Ducati's tolerances, they were all still in spec. Belt changes are still recommended every 12k miles or two years, though. Not a big deal, especially with a Monster where there isn't much that has to be removed to get to them.

[Kootenanny]

Greetings,

I'm getting a new bike this spring. The Suzuki SV1000S is at or near the top of my list, but the idea of an air cooled Buell or Ducati is appealing.

I don't think you'll go wrong with either Buell or Ducati.  I own a Buell XB9R Firebolt, and I know several Ducati owners (and one SV1000S owner).  I've demo'd both the air-cooled Ducatis and the SV1000S, too.

First off, the Suzuki.  All I can say is, I rode one before buying my Buell; even though the SV was at a local dealer, I still travelled to a dealer 6 hours away to buy the Buell (and what dealer service I have done, gets done at a dealer even further away--I have no local Buell dealers).  The Buell simply puts a bigger grin on my face--you have to ride one to understand.

Then, with some trepidation, I attended a Ducati demo last summer (again, 8 hours away).  I was concerned I'd come away wanting a new Ducati, and no longer so happy with my current ride.  However, I'm happy to say that my Firebolt is as exciting as the Sport 1000 I rode, and far more comfortable.  In fact, it is more comfortable for me than the ST3 I demo'd, possibly due to the Helibars riser I've installed (the only mod I've done).

One thing you get with Buell is one of the best chassis going, complete with fully adjustable suspension.  Plus, Buell puts the exhaust can where it belongs  

[Rogue]

Never owned a Ducati so I can't tell you much.

The Firebolt has a range of about 120-140 miles before reserve depending on how hard you ride it.  There are aftermarket remedies to raise its bars and lower its pegs, put a larger windscreen, etc.  So it's possible to make it into a more sport-tourer oriented machine.

Also, the 12R motor redlines at 7,000RPM.  The 9R motor redlines at 8,000RPM.

Buell will discontinue the XB9R in 2008.  They're also saying there will be an all new model in 2008 (not the TT).  

[Rogue]

I haven't read anymore info on the NEW Buell coming up in 2008.  I saw it first in Badweatherbikers.com.  Buell is being tight lipped about it.  They're not saying whether it's XB-based or not.

I do think Buell has pretty much maximized the lifespan of the XB. 2006 has proven to be THE best year of the XB series wherein they remedied most, if not all the gripes heaped onto the family of bikes.  In addition, Buell's mass-centralization principal has been vindicated by other makers recently.  So I think it's time for Buell's next innovation.  Personally, I would like to see a narrower and lighter frame.  More VFR-like riding position for the Firebolt.  100+ rwhp maybe from 4 valves per cylinder (but still hydraulic valves & pushrods).  430 lbs wet.  But no compromises on regular maintenance and simplicity.  I really, really like that about my Buell.

[ninaudchief]

HI Ken,
The Ducati and Buells are awsome bikes. I like my wife's 2003 620 monster because it is so smooth, great handling, super breaks and great looks. Maintenance on the Duc is not a big issue for me. I almost went for a 1000 cc duc for myself, but ended up with a low mileage 2001 Buell S3.
I considered a new Uly because it is so comfortable, carries lots of luggage and can go on any road surface, plus I needed room for a passenger. A combination of things turned me towards the older Tube frame Buell.
First, I had good impressions riding my bro's lightning it has tons of character and I could not get the smile off my face.
Second, the S3 has room for two, a nice fairing for longer rides, more upright seating, killer looks, low maintenance and great color and wheels.
Third, it showed up on my local craigs list for $4800 with only 2100 miles on it - an incredible bargain.
The bike did crap-out on me, but my local Buell buddies and BadWeb, helped isolate the problem to a $37 part.
Now it runs like a champ.
I guess to sum it up:
Ducati - is great for having a smoother higher reving motor, better brakes, a wider range of models and it is more sophisticated overall.
Buell - is great for lots of low end tourqe, handling, belt drive, no valve adjust, and very unique.
It will be a tough choice!

[rauchman]

 Personally, I would like to see a narrower and lighter frame.  More VFR-like riding position for the Firebolt.  100+ rwhp maybe from 4 valves per cylinder (but still hydraulic valves & pushrods).  430 lbs wet.  But no compromises on regular maintenance and simplicity.  I really, really like that about my Buell.

A big +1!!!!

[rauchman]

Did they finally work out all the issues that the Buells had a few years ago? I want to say I remember some models had a long list of recalls on them (late 90's models, maybe).

As for Ducati maintenance, the 2V engines are known to be fairly bulletproof. There is a guy in Florida with a '99 Ducati SS900 that has over 125k miles on it with only regular maintenance done to them. I know of several Supersport, 2V Monsters, and ST2 bikes with well over 50k without anything but regular maintenance done to them. Other than a quirky, one-year charging system, my ST2 has been essentially flawless for 24k+ miles, and I dog the crap out of it.

The 2V engines are a breeze to do your own valve adjustments on them, and the cam belts are quite cheap (Bucci aftermarket belts). Now, if you want to talk about the 4V engines, especially the Desmoquattro engine, that may be a slight bit different story.  

I do like how you posted this in the Buell section, though.  

Out of curiosity, is the ST3 easy to work on?  I take it, this would be the 3 valve head.

Thanks

[Snowbird]

I looked over a group of mostly Ducs riding together recently... along with a single Buell. None of the Ducs had shredded the sides of their rear tires like the Buell had. I want a Buell.  

I put over 40k on my Sportster with the least problems of any bike I'd owned to that point. The engine is a rock... not a high-revving rock, though.

[Desmo Demon]

Out of curiosity, is the ST3 easy to work on?  I take it, this would be the 3 valve head.

I really don't know. I haven't seen one of them apart. I know that....

1) The old Pantah engine in my '87 Paso is a PITA to do the valves on, as I have to remove the rocker shaft cover off, to pull the shaft of the opener rocker out, to remove the opener rocker, to change the shims. (I think some of the newer than '87 models are like the DesmoDue in my ST2).

2) The Desmodue (2V engines) are easy to do the valves on, because you remove a clip on the rocker shaft that allows the opener rocker to be slid out of the way to change shims.

3) The Desmoquattro (4V engine - '90's design) have less access than the 2V engines, and to change shims, the rocker shaft cover needs to be removed and the rocker shaft has to be pulled out, at least partially, so that the opener rocker can be slid over to access the shims. Cam removal is almost necessary to check for the dreaded "flakey rockers" that are fairly common - bad chroming on the rockers.

4) The Testastretta (4V engine in '03 and newer superbike - including the '02 998) is much easier to work on, but removal of the cams is required to get to the shims. It really is much easier than the Desmoquattro engine, though. Matter of fact, I'm going to a friend's tomorrow, to do the valve adjustment on his 2002 998S.

I don't know of anyone, personally, who has messed with a 3V Ducati engine, yet.

[Longpath]

I have had the same question rolling around in my head regarding the S2R 1000 and the XB12s.  If you look on the Ducati Monster board you see good props to both but of course leaning toward the Ducati, and the Badweb guys give great props to the Ducati but lean toward the Buell of course.  I think they are very similar in nice and one must make the decision in person, one his own.

[rauchman]

I don't think you'll go wrong with either Buell or Ducati.  I own a Buell XB9R Firebolt, and I know several Ducati owners (and one SV1000S owner).  I've demo'd both the air-cooled Ducatis and the SV1000S, too.

First off, the Suzuki.  All I can say is, I rode one before buying my Buell; even though the SV was at a local dealer, I still travelled to a dealer 6 hours away to buy the Buell (and what dealer service I have done, gets done at a dealer even further away--I have no local Buell dealers).  The Buell simply puts a bigger grin on my face--you have to ride one to understand.

Then, with some trepidation, I attended a Ducati demo last summer (again, 8 hours away).  I was concerned I'd come away wanting a new Ducati, and no longer so happy with my current ride.  However, I'm happy to say that my Firebolt is as exciting as the Sport 1000 I rode, and far more comfortable.  In fact, it is more comfortable for me than the ST3 I demo'd, possibly due to the Helibars riser I've installed (the only mod I've done).

One thing you get with Buell is one of the best chassis going, complete with fully adjustable suspension.  Plus, Buell puts the exhaust can where it belongs  

What didn't you like about the SV1K?

[Kootenanny]

What didn't you like about the SV1K?

The Suzuki is a larger bike, to start with, and the riding position is a bit more stretched out.  It has more power than the Buell, I'm sure, but somehow it doesn't feel as strong.  And the handling doesn't seem quite as sharp as the Buell.

These are subjective opinions, but the main thing is--the Buell just feels better to ride, IMO.

[2DFlyer]

I owned a ST3 and put more than a few miles on a couple of Buells XB's.  For a twin I much prefer the Buell.  The 992 will run to higher revs but does not pull as well as the 1203 Thunderstorm from down low.  The 992 had a nasty spot at about 5K RPM - not a big deal but it wasn't happy.  The Buell pulls smoothly and easily from idle to red line.  I remain impressed with how easily it revs. So for me it's Buell.  But one will talk to you louder than the other.

 Here's a couple of dyno charts and a place for aftermarket exhaust audio clips where you'll find a Buell and a Ducati or two.

http://www.hpe-auspuff.de/html/sound-_video-galerie.html