DS Power to Weight thread

[Johnny Monsoon]

This is mostly academic in the sense that I'm using dry weight, and hp at the flywheel (the two least corruptable measurements).  While it won't give you a performance chart, it will give you a starting point as to what you can expect for power of a bike.  My measurements are generally from manufacturer websites and exhaust tuning sites (before and after power curves) where the flywheel bhp was not listed.

   Dual Sport                     
   Bike      Weight      HP      P:W   
                        
   DR200      249      13      19.15   
   XT225      238      15      15.87   
   KLX250S      262      18      14.56   
   DRz400      291      32      9.09   
   XT600E      344      45      7.64   
   TE-610      308      48      6.42   
   LC4 640E      325      55      5.91   
   XR650L      324      31      10.45   
   KLR650      402      35      11.49   
   DR650      332      43      7.72   
   CCM      332      43      7.72   
   F650GS      423      37      11.43   
   HP2      433      95      4.56   

[speedjunkie]

This is mostly academic in the sense that I'm using dry weight, and hp at the flywheel (the two least corruptable measurements).  While it won't give you a performance chart, it will give you a starting point as to what you can expect for power of a bike.  My measurements are generally from manufacturer websites and exhaust tuning sites (before and after power curves) where the flywheel bhp was not listed.

   Bike      Weight      HP      P:W   
                        
   DR200      249      13      19.15   
   XT225      238      15      15.87   
   KLX250S      262      18      14.56   
   DRz400      291      32      9.09   
   XT600E      344      45      7.64   
   KLX650C      337      39      8.64   
   KLR650      337      34      9.91   
   DR650      324      43      7.53   
   F650GS      387      42      9.21   
   TE-610      308      48      6.42   
   LC4 640E      329      55      5.98   

Fixed it for you, so as to add some color.    I was gonna add the Aprillia RXV series, but it appears they missed the boat on street legal this year.



Mike

[Johnny Monsoon]

Hey!  Thanks, Mike!  For any subsequent posts of numbers, either PM me or post them directly in here and I'll update the chart so there aren't many, many charts in one thread.

Aside from posting a photo link, does anyone know how to put a formatted chart in here?  

[bizarro]

Perhaps as an attachment? Or you could maybe save it as a jpg and upload it somewhere and link it in?

[Johnny Monsoon]

Perhaps as an attachment? Or you could maybe save it as a jpg and upload it somewhere and link it in?

Yeah, that's the easy way, but that winds up being a lot of work every time I want to modify it.  I'm sure there's a html geek that can show me how to format this...

[Nimh]

This is likely a stupid question, but what about the XR650L?  Too dirt bike-ish?  When I bought my KLR years ago, it was second in line...

All this talk of the TE-610 has gotten me thinking about a dual sport again.  I don't see too many for sale in our area.  

[Johnny Monsoon]

This is likely a stupid question, but what about the XR650L?  Too dirt bike-ish?  When I bought my KLR years ago, it was second in line...

All this talk of the TE-610 has gotten me thinking about a dual sport again.  I don't see too many for sale in our area.  

Not stupid at all!  This list is not nearly as comprehensive as I'd like it to be, but I've found getting good power numbers and weights from online sources of DS bikes is a bit spotty.  If you have that information I'd love to put it up on this chart.

[JohnWayne]

Well, I was going to post the barely street legal EXC450 (250.3 lbs) and EXC525 (250.8 lbs) numbers, but I can't find any hp figures.  Anyone have them?

[Johnny Monsoon]

Well, I was going to post the barely street legal EXC450 (250.3 lbs) and EXC525 (250.8 lbs) numbers, but I can't find any hp figures.  Anyone have them?

I'd like to see those as well; those are very cool bikes so long as you don't have much in the way of trail to connect.

[photomd]

How about dirt only bikes?

CR250's are about 45 HP and weigh about 215lbs dry...I'd guess 230 with fluids
CRf450's are about 48 hp and weight about 220 dry.

[Johnny Monsoon]

How about dirt only bikes?

CR250's are about 45 HP and weigh about 215lbs dry...I'd guess 230 with fluids
CRf450's are about 48 hp and weight about 220 dry.

I'd rather keep those in a separate chart, and further break those down between real engines and 2-smokers.   Just kidding, but I would separate them just to avoid confusion.

[photomd]

I'd rather keep those in a separate chart, and further break those down between real engines and 2-smokers.   Just kidding, but I would separate them just to avoid confusion.

Oh...OK. I just thought you'd like to see what a REAL dirtbike looks like on paper.

[JohnWayne]

I'd like to see those as well; those are very cool bikes so long as you don't have much in the way of trail to connect.

In the same vein, the barely street legal Husky weights (no hp figures listed) are:
TE250  238.1 lbs.
TE450  249.8 lbs.
TE510  250.9 lbs.

[bluepoof]

Woohoo, go XT225!  

[speedjunkie]

Here's a link that has a BUNCH of stuff on it.  Don't know if everything is completely accurate.  Looks like only up to 2004 also.  On a side note, it says a 2004 XRL is good for 61.2 hp and weights only 269 pounds!!  Surely not!!  That's nearly as light as the new EXC's!  That P/W ratio would be 4.4!!!    



Mike

[Johnny Monsoon]

Here's a link that has a BUNCH of stuff on it.  Don't know if everything is completely accurate.  Looks like only up to 2004 also.  On a side note, it says a 2004 XRL is good for 61.2 hp and weights only 269 pounds!!  Surely not!!  That's nearly as light as the new EXC's!  That P/W ratio would be 4.4!!!    



Mike

Yeahhh.... I've found it is very difficult to find accurate information when it comes to dirtbike and DS machines.  I'm not buying those numbers...

[speedjunkie]

Per Honda's site, the XRL weights in at 324 pounds.  No hp #'s, although I would guess it to be low to mid 40's, similar to the DR.  I don't know about the current line of EXC's but I've read mid 40's for the 400, 50 for the 450, and around 55 for the 525.  



Mike

[Cricket]

The horse power on the 06 KTM 450 EXC was 42 HP and Torque was 37.5 lb-ft by Motorcycle-USA  and the weight 255 # and here is a link to that article.
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=3319&Page=5

The 07 KTM 450 EXC lost 3 HP due to the quieter exhaust and picked 6 # of weight. Here is a link to that article.
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=4010

Ken

[leeo45]

Aprilia RXV 450       283      56      5.1
         RXV 550       283      64      4.4

And some people claim the 550 is closer to 70 HP !

[Nimh]

Not stupid at all!  This list is not nearly as comprehensive as I'd like it to be, but I've found getting good power numbers and weights from online sources of DS bikes is a bit spotty.  If you have that information I'd love to put it up on this chart.

Yeah - I'm impressed these numbers are as elusive as they are for the Honda... I can't seem to find recent HP figures, but I did find a comparison of the 2003 BMW F650GS and the 2003 Honda XR650L and it claims the XRL puts out 31HP peak on the dyno (which doesn't match your other data - at the crank).  I also found a few articles that claimed the XR650R puts out 43 hp at the crank, but I don't have a foggy idea if the two power plants are identical.  

And as other posters have already found, 324 lbs dry per Honda - P:W = 7.53   It sounds about right, but may not be dead nuts on...

[DNA]

 :drool:Ohhhhhhhhhhh thanks.
Now i can't sleep...again.

[XLR8]

Hmm interesting. Cool. I was looking at a TE 510 vs the 610. The 510 would be a screamer.

Better get the KTM Super Enduro in there I think it's 100hp and 427 pounds? Yikes!

[Johnny Monsoon]

Hmm interesting. Cool. I was looking at a TE 510 vs the 610. The 510 would be a screamer.

Better get the KTM Super Enduro in there I think it's 100hp and 427 pounds? Yikes!

Then there's the BMW HP3 if you're headed that direction. The shaft would be sweet, for sure, but those cases hanging out there like that just seem to be taunting rocks.  Still, I'd like one!

[garry]

Just as a data point relative to 250 lb / 50+ HP dual-sports with 5 pounds per HP

a 450 lb (wet) superbike with 150 HP (rear wheel) is 3.0 pounds per HP.

I knew there was a reason whacking the throttle on a 2006 ZX-10R was so much fun  

I'm still in lust with the 2007 KTM 525 EXC at the local shop though.

[Johnny Monsoon]

Just as a data point relative to 250 lb / 50+ HP dual-sports with 5 pounds per HP

a 450 lb (wet) superbike with 150 HP (rear wheel) is 3.0 pounds per HP.

I knew there was a reason whacking the throttle on a 2006 ZX-10R was so much fun  

I'm still in lust with the 2007 KTM 525 EXC at the local shop though.

My XX is 3.9 lb per pound.  But, power really isn't the end-all-be-all with these bikes.  You don't need much power to run gravel roads, etc.  I'd say that 50hp on a DS bike will get you anywhere on the planet rideable, and in good time.  Heck, those heavy old HD machines only made something like 14hp and weighed in at well over 300lb.  The helped win wars, traverse the Sahara, and trek into rather untamed parts of the American wild.

[hig4s]

The horse power on the 06 KTM 450 EXC was 42 HP and Torque was 37.5 lb-ft by Motorcycle-USA  and the weight 255 # and here is a link to that article.
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=3319&Page=5

The 07 KTM 450 EXC lost 3 HP due to the quieter exhaust and picked 6 # of weight. Here is a link to that article.
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=4010

Ken

The original chart was dry weight and crank HP.. 42 has to be rear wheel and a little low, I've seen both Yamaha WR450s and KTM450EXCs dynoed to 45 rear wheel.

My 03 KTM 250SX 2-stroke has 49 crank (most of any 250 2 stroke) and weighs 209 dry. And I know most 450s make as much or more than most 2-stroke 250s..  4.2 lbs per HP. Not too far off from the XX.
Of course for real dirtbike acceleration junkies a CR500 with 65 hp and at 222 lbs is 3.4 lbs per HP stock. And with bore to 512 (stock is actually 491) and porting they get around 72hp from them.  which is 3.08 lbs per HP.

[Johnny Monsoon]

The original chart was dry weight and crank HP.. 42 has to be rear wheel and a little low, I've seen both Yamaha WR450s and KTM450EXCs dynoed to 45 rear wheel.

My 03 KTM 250SX 2-stroke has 49 crank (most of any 250 2 stroke) and weighs 209 dry. And I know most 450s make as much or more than most 2-stroke 250s..  4.2 lbs per HP. Not too far off from the XX.
Of course for real dirtbike acceleration junkies a CR500 with 65 hp and at 222 lbs is 3.4 lbs per HP stock. And with bore to 512 (stock is actually 491) and porting they get around 72hp from them.  which is 3.08 lbs per HP.

I think it is important to ensure that everyone involved is fully aware that these numbers are close guesses at best.  I look for the most reliable sources, but even the factory numbers can be pretty skewed.

Just so's ya knows

[XLR8]

WFIW, the spec sheet for my TE 610 says 53hp. Whoop!

[Cricket]

I think it is important to ensure that everyone involved is fully aware that these numbers are close guesses at best.  I look for the most reliable sources, but even the factory numbers can be pretty skewed.

Just so's ya knows

That why I went off a know source for the information. So I didn’t skewer the Numbers.

[hig4s]

WFIW, the spec sheet for my TE 610 says 53hp. Whoop!

I think the TE450 is 51hp.. I think the big difference between the Husky, 450, 510 and 610 And between the KTM 450, and 525,,  is at what RPM serious power starts.   I know the KTM 525 I rode have power EVERYWHERE!!!!

[Johnny Monsoon]

I think the TE450 is 51hp.. I think the big difference between the Husky, 450, 510 and 610 And between the KTM 450, and 525,,  is at what RPM serious power starts.   I know the KTM 525 I rode have power EVERYWHERE!!!!

I've since learned that the Husky numbers are bhp measured at the flywheel, bringing their numbers down against most of the others in the chart (which I wanted to get flywheel numbers for, but only found rear wheel numbers)

[dlrides]

Forgot about the KTM 950SE, P/W 4.26 !

[Johnny Monsoon]

Forgot about the KTM 950SE, P/W 4.26 !

Nah, didn't forget, just didn't make the cut (real DS bikes here...)  

[dlrides]

Nah, didn't forget, just didn't make the cut (real DS bikes here...)  

The HP2 is, and the 950SE isn't ??????????????????  Just saying

[Johnny Monsoon]

The HP2 is, and the 950SE isn't ??????????????????  Just saying

Have you seen what an HP2 can do?  Honestly, I was just looking over those specs for myself and left them in there.  Frankly, I wouldn't put the HP2 in this list; I just failed to omit it.  I often run numbers through that spreadsheet...

[FullMonte]

Yeah - I'm impressed these numbers are as elusive as they are for the Honda... I can't seem to find recent HP figures, but I did find a comparison of the 2003 BMW F650GS and the 2003 Honda XR650L and it claims the XRL puts out 31HP peak on the dyno (which doesn't match your other data - at the crank).  I also found a few articles that claimed the XR650R puts out 43 hp at the crank, but I don't have a foggy idea if the two power plants are identical.

They're not.  The XR650R has a water cooled motor designed for desert racing, i.e. multi time Baja 1k winner.  The XR650L motor is air cooled and not nearly as powerful.  It is designed to be simple and understressed.  Two different bikes really.  Hope this clarifies the difference.

[Nimh]

Right on, thanks FullMonte. 

My DS itch is getting worse lately, and I'm still trying to figure out which bike is right.  So many good bikes, so little time.

[GetFuzzy]

They're not.  The XR650R has a water cooled motor designed for desert racing, i.e. multi time Baja 1k winner.  The XR650L motor is air cooled and not nearly as powerful.  It is designed to be simple and understressed.  Two different bikes really.  Hope this clarifies the difference.

:thumbsup:Additionaly the R has an aluminum frame, better suspension parts and about 50 less pounds, also not street legal from the factory.

[Johnny Monsoon]

 :thumbsup:Additionaly the R [snip] is not street legal from the factory.

Which Honda should be flogged for...

[tshelver]

Yeah - I'm impressed these numbers are as elusive as they are for the Honda... I can't seem to find recent HP figures, but I did find a comparison of the 2003 BMW F650GS and the 2003 Honda XR650L and it claims the XRL puts out 31HP peak on the dyno (which doesn't match your other data - at the crank).  I also found a few articles that claimed the XR650R puts out 43 hp at the crank, but I don't have a foggy idea if the two power plants are identical.  

And as other posters have already found, 324 lbs dry per Honda - P:W = 7.53   It sounds about right, but may not be dead nuts on...

Published and real world specs can by _very_ different.  DR and KLR are pretty similar power wise.  KLR is about 80 lb more than the Husky TE610, from a thread on advrider.com.  Husky weighs in around 325 lb wet, so...

XLR and XR-R are totally different power plants.  The L comes from the 80s, and is aircooled. The R is late 90s / early 2000s and is watercooled.
Most tests of the street legal Jap 650s seem to have rear wheel HP in the 30s, quite often low 30s.

'06 Husky TE610 seems to make mid-40s to 50, depending on tune and exhaust, the lower figure being stock.  Stock 610 (I have one) seems about the same as the XR-R for power.

Last weekend I test rode the Aprilia SXV 450.  Man that bike makes at least 55 hp, and revs really quickly.  Very fast for the size, but buzzes from seat to bar to pegs depending on the revs.  Substantially faster-feeling than my TE610, so don't try to take one on your KLR...

Main problem with the KTM EXC, Husky 450/510 and the SXV / RXV is that they are race-spec motors, and need very regular servicing and often rebuilding).  Which is why I went with the 610.