Aux-Fuel cells

[Tony T]

Mods please leave this in the IBA section, it is a IBA specific modification.  

We don't have a thread about fuel cells here. Warchild used to have a great blog about his fuel cell on the XX but it seems to be down when I do a search for his page.  

I'm looking to add a 4ga fuel cell to my bike this year and would like to tap into the wealth of knowledge of those that already have done so. Mainly I'm looking for the details of the hook-up and what parts you used. How to run the lines, a good way to tap into the tank, what valves to use, what valves to stay away from, pictures of brackets . . . . ect.

Basically any tips and advice you would have please post up and educate the uneducated.  

[whodat]

What kind of bike? The parts needed and the hookup can vary between bikes. I've got a 4 gallon Tourtank I use on my Tiger set up on a spare pillion seat and plumbed with quick connect fittings, all gravity fed. Takes me about a minute to put on or take off the aux tank.

[Tony T]

A Triumph Trophy. A gravity feed system is what I looking for. (Carbs)

Do you have some type of bracket / cradle for it or do you just strap it to the seat?  

[Lonerockz]

Yes more info please! This winter I plan to add a second fuel cell. I don't want to plumb into the fuel tank though so I was planing on cutting the fuel line putting in a Y then having a fuel pump in my Cell. Switches to turn off the fuel pumps. I was going to put check valves and quick disconnects inline between the pumps and the engine. Anyone see issues with this setup?

Any leads on where custom tanks can be made?

I found that Lab supply companies have really cheap and (near as I can tell) identical quick disconnects and check valves as some of the motorcycle/racing parts places.

I have an 08 Kawasaki Versys.

Steve

[Tony T]

Anyone see issues with this setup?

Steve

Yes, pumps can fail.  

For me I don't think splicing into the existing fuel lines would be good, there are 2 of them that feed the carbs and I want to be able to watch the fuel gauge on the dash. I would like to mount the aux tank to the rear oem rack but I'm worried about overloading it with 4ga of gas + tank weight.  

[Warchild]

I would like to mount the aux tank to the rear oem rack but I'm worried about overloading it with 4ga of gas + tank weight.  

Consider placing of the cell on the pillion seat area. Then the weight becomes almost a non-issue....



Let's say that your cell and mounting rack weighs 15 lbs. If we weigh gas at ~6.2 lbs per gallon, then even when fully fueled, your entire setup weighs less that 40lbs....  not much of an impact, if the weight resides on the pillion area. Then you can use your rear rack for something useful, like a 1-gallon water-jug, or a Ventura Bag.

Or both....

[Davo]

Links to mine.

My earlier bike a Kawasaki 1000GTR / Concours
http://www.davojones.com/auxtank.htm
3.5 gal Tourtank - pic done prior to fitting quick disconnect.


My current Kawasaki 1400GTR / Concours14
http://www.davojones.com/auxtankroo.htm

5 gal Jazz tank

[DNA]

Great thread.

I have a 5 gal plastic tank wiht all the fittings attached, but no hook up or connectors.  

It sits in the garage asking to be installed - I think I should just sell it for the $75 I paid (it was an extra from an east coast rally master who did not need it for the 2008 IBR),

If I post a pic of the tank on the floor - I can get it out of my garage and loose the guilt?

I am basically stuck on how to plumb it into my plastic gas tank.  I know there are various bulkhead fittings that can be used, but I have not looked that thoroughly and would dearly love someone to just set me up with a fitting and connector kit - or buy it from me so i can quit thinking about it.

[2wTraveler]

Keep em coming guys. This is something I have been interested in adding over the last couple of years. Definately something I would like to have in time for the Void rally this fall. I'm riding an 06 FJR and have a spare back seat to permenately mount it to. Is this a bad idea? Would it pass tech inspection? IIRC IBA rules state that the aux tanks bracket must bolt directly to the frame?

I think I am going to use a JAZ tank due to the price point and add a bulkhead fitting to my stock tank. Most likely going to gravity feed.

[DNA]

Damn you all - now I am looking at these fittings - thinking just how easy this could be...

http://www.jazproducts.com/AN_fittings.html#bulkheadnut

[Bill Lance]

Glad to see this thread.

As much as I want to add a fuel cell, there is no way I would tackle the project alone.

Does anyone here know of a shop or an individual who does this type of work.  I want it done correctly, and am not afraid to pay well for quality work. I live in western NC--the Southeast US would be preferred.  Thank you!!

Bill

[Davo]

I think I am going to use a JAZ tank due to the price point and add a bulkhead fitting to my stock tank. Most likely going to gravity feed.

Its morning in Australia and I am at work, at home I have links to fitting bulkhead fitting to your FJR tank and will post later unless someone does first.

It is very similar to mine on the Kawasaki.


Undo and remove your fuel pump which will give you room to get your hand inside, place a container in there to catch any filings from the drill and flush out WELL after.

[DNA]

Thanks DaveO - would you do this type of install on a plastic tank?  The only metal part is the fuel pump plate - I was thinking I could try to find a place to drill that - but the plastic sure would be easy - IF it was safe.

BTW - can you post up on the shut off valve you are using?  I had heard of one that was awesome - the "must use" piece - but I lost the link.

[Tony T]

Great write-up Davo, thanks for posting that.  

The rack on your 1400gtr looks fantastic, very nicely done. It gives me better ideas on how to make one that works well and doesn't look like crap. That is one of my stumbling blocks on how to do this mod, how to make a rack that works and also look halfway decent.

Like DNA I'm curious about the parts you used. Mainly the bulkhead fitting, quick-disconnect, and shutoff valve.

Anyone else have tips / pictures they like to share with the class?  

[Tony T]

Consider placing of the cell on the pillion seat area. Then the weight becomes almost a non-issue....

Excellent point Warchild, good to see you post here again.  

The only reason I lean towards mounting the tank on the oem rack is for ease of mounting it there. I really rather not cut into the seat or the flaring to get this done but am finding it difficult to find a "above the seat" solution without hacking away at things. In all reality the weight would just be too much for the oem rack and I would be risking the whole thing bouncing down the hwy.

Once I have the mounting rack figured out the rest should be easy.  

[Black Ice]

Excellent point Warchild, good to see you post here again.

I wish he'd quit being an International Man Of Mystery and hang out here more often.

But then, he's usually too busy doing crazy shit like riding his bike.  Who does that?  

[Davo]

Thanks DaveO - would you do this type of install on a plastic tank?  The only metal part is the fuel pump plate - I was thinking I could try to find a place to drill that - but the plastic sure would be easy - IF it was safe.

BTW - can you post up on the shut off valve you are using?  I had heard of one that was awesome - the "must use" piece - but I lost the link.

My bike is currently on the ocean on the way to Portland for my IBR ride so I can only go on file images I have.



More on the whole thing here on my GTR-AUS site.
http://gtr1000.yuku.com/topic/3121?page=1

[2wTraveler]

Thanks Davo, looks very good. Good luck in the IBR it's going to be a great rally this year!

[guitardad]

Good timing, guys!  Like Yamatech, I'm trying to work up a cell install for the Void this fall.  Now a question....  How high above the bottom of the main tank should the bottom of the aux cell really be in order to work as a gravity feed?  I'm trying to get the cell low enough to push it back against my topcase, but still allow the case to open without any interference.  And I'd much prefer gravity to a transfer pump.

[Davo]

I started working life as a plumber, same principal. As long as its higher it MUST flow from one to the other. Clearly higher creates a better head pressure but it is not that important with these. The worst would be you let the main tank completely empty and as long as the flow rate from the aux is faster than the fuel being used it will fill.

So don't let the main completely empty and if you do don't ride at 150mph  

[Tony T]

Great thread.

I have a 5 gal plastic tank wiht all the fittings attached, but no hook up or connectors.  

It sits in the garage asking to be installed - I think I should just sell it for the $75 I paid (it was an extra from an east coast rally master who did not need it for the 2008 IBR),

If I post a pic of the tank on the floor - I can get it out of my garage and loose the guilt?

I am basically stuck on how to plumb it into my plastic gas tank.  I know there are various bulkhead fittings that can be used, but I have not looked that thoroughly and would dearly love someone to just set me up with a fitting and connector kit - or buy it from me so i can quit thinking about it.

If you decide to sell it let me know.  

[Bounce]

You can get everything you need to DIY through Summit Racing. Get the tank and fittings and then find a nearby sheet metal shop to help you fab your mounting bracket.

Pick and choose your cell: http://www.summitracing.com/search/Department/Air-Fuel-Delivery/Section/Fuel-Cells-Tanks/?Ns=Rank|Asc
Then pick and choose the best cap (i personally don't care for the jazz cap): http://www.summitracing.com/search/Department/Air-Fuel-Delivery/Section/Fuel-Cells-Tanks/Part-Type/Fuel-Cell-Caps/?Ns=Rank|Asc

[Warchild]

Bounce has it nailed.... the Summit tanks are quite popular in the Endurance Riding community, and they come with fuel line and vent fittings already in place. The fuel fitting is an AN-8; the vent fitting is an AN-6, and the tank comes with anti-slosh foam installed.This 5-gal unit can be seen on many bikes at the start of the Iron Butt Rally... all for less than $100:





Now all you really have to do is fabricate a rack for this cell,  drill your bulkhead fitting in your main cell, and you're done!  

[DNA]

For all interested, the pic Warchild just posted is exactly what is sitting in my garage not hooked up.

I got it from a local IBR guy for $75.

BTW Warchild - I seem to remember something about proper grounding requirements - does this only apply to pump assisted, or should there be some grounding needed for gravity feed as well?  You were busting someone's stones about this at tech on a rally a while back  

[D-Mac]

Great thread! I've lusted for a fuel cell for a while now. I think this will be my next mod after getting a new seat this fall. I've had too many close calls on low fuel this year and stopping a lot really hurts my riding progress. True - I only ride an FZ6, but extending the range from ~200 miles to 350 miles would be awesome on long rides and IBA attempts.

Drilling into the gas tank is making me a bit nervous, so I'm thinking I might have a local bike builder rig it up for me.

I'm thinking of mounting the tank to the pillion seat. Seems like a good place to put it since I never ride 2-up and it won't take away from storage space. Better for weight distribution too.

Keeps those install pics coming!

[Davo]

Drilling into the gas tank is making me a bit nervous, so I'm thinking I might have a local bike builder rig it up for me.

Point on this.

Do NOT use a normal drill bit, it will not drill a perfect round hole they are always oval.
I don't know the name of the bit but it's slightly cone shaped. Someone wiser than me may know what its called.

Small normal drill bit for pilot hole.

[DNA]

Sweet - this is exactly why I love this place.  Oval - who would a thunk it.

Do you mean those step bits I've always wanted to buy but never new exactly what they were used for?

[Lonerockz]

Yes, pumps can fail.  

For me I don't think splicing into the existing fuel lines would be good, there are 2 of them that feed the carbs and I want to be able to watch the fuel gauge on the dash. I would like to mount the aux tank to the rear oem rack but I'm worried about overloading it with 4ga of gas + tank weight.  

Yeah, pumps can fail, but I have a fuel injected bike so I'm going to have a pump no matter what. I REALLY don't like the idea of punching a hole in my tank. I mean REALLY REALLY don't like it. In my case there is only one line from pump to the injectors, so plumbing would not be that tough.

I have found a lab supply company that has quick disconnects much cheaper than elsewhere. Same parts as I have seen sold by motorcycle sites, but at 20% of the cost. http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?cls=1459 They have Y's as well, but not sure about shutoffs... Looking that them they don't look like what I want.

[Tony T]

For those that are interested, the silver aux fuel cell bag that is on Warchilds bike pictured above (I believe) was made by Linda T  

[Davo]

Sweet - this is exactly why I love this place.  Oval - who would a thunk it.
Do you mean those step bits I've always wanted to buy but never new exactly what they were used for?

Yes the stepped bit, they have a slot in each? side for the cuttings and drill a perfect round hole. You just drill in the depth you need for size (which is the reasons for the steps) I would strongly suggest a test hole and when doing the real one keep stopping to check fit.

[Tony T]

Yes the stepped bit, they have a slot in each? side for the cuttings and drill a perfect round hole. You just drill in the depth you need for size (which is the reasons for the steps) I would strongly suggest a test hole and when doing the real one keep stopping to check fit.

Got it, a "Unibit"  

[guitardad]

Bounce has it nailed.... the Summit tanks are quite popular in the Endurance Riding community, and they come with fuel line and vent fittings already in place. The fuel fitting is an AN-8; the vent fitting is an AN-6, and the tank comes with anti-slosh foam installed.This 5-gal unit can be seen on many bikes at the start of the Iron Butt Rally... all for less than $100:





Now all you really have to do is fabricate a rack for this cell,  drill your bulkhead fitting in your main cell, and you're done!  

Ah, that helps a lot!  I wasn't sure if the plastic cells were acceptable, or if I needed to go with an aluminum one.

[Rocket_Cowboy]

Yeah, pumps can fail, but I have a fuel injected bike so I'm going to have a pump no matter what.

Interesting.

My R1200RT is fuel injected, but my aux tank is gravity fed. I gravity feed from the aux into the main, and then they the main tank's fuel pump feed the FI.

[whodat]

Yeah, pumps can fail, but I have a fuel injected bike so I'm going to have a pump no matter what. I REALLY don't like the idea of punching a hole in my tank. I mean REALLY REALLY don't like it. In my case there is only one line from pump to the injectors, so plumbing would not be that tough.

I have found a lab supply company that has quick disconnects much cheaper than elsewhere. Same parts as I have seen sold by motorcycle sites, but at 20% of the cost. http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?cls=1459 They have Y's as well, but not sure about shutoffs... Looking that them they don't look like what I want.


My Tiger is fuel injected but I was still able to use a gravity fed setup. I run down the main tank until the low fuel light comes on then switch open my aux tank. Ten minutes later I've got 3/4 tank again.

I picked up most of the plumbing fittings I needed at the local Ace Hardware. I found a boating store, (West Coast Marine), had a very good selection of quick connects.

[Tony T]

 

[Davo]

Topic has heaps of pics, try following some links.
 

[Tony T]

Yea, I'm well aware of that, but I would love to see a Triumph Tiger with a aux tank.

This is also a thread for those that have one to brag and post pics.  

[Bounce]

Ah, that helps a lot!  I wasn't sure if the plastic cells were acceptable, or if I needed to go with an aluminum one.

the vast majority i've seen have been race-certified "plastic". Summit sells cells that meet various racing committee standards (NHRA, etc.).
Posted on: June 25, 2009, 11:23:50 amHere's a DIY project that can easily be translated to other applications.

GL1200 using Summit

[guitardad]

Was at a Tech Day on Saturday, and a friend was clearing out his garage.  Now I've got a 4 gallon aluminum fuel cell.  On to working out mounting and plumbing!

[Bearly Flying]

I run a 12 V pump on mine and it has worked flawlessly for 4 years,(cheap inline pump available from just about any Autoparts Store $30.00.)

With the two piece seat of the FJR you can mount it fairly low, but will require the use of the pump.

Absolutely No issues with the extra weight effecting handling.

[Tony T]

Wow, that looks really nice.  

Is that a custom made tank? It looks like a 4ga with curved sides in the back.  

[motomem]

On axillary tanks do you ride until your first tank is empty and then let gravity or a pump and fill the first tank back up? Can you rig the low fuel float to turn on a pump to start using the axillary. I've always wanted to put one one my bike but now I do good to stay on the bike for a tank of gas. Curious about this stuff.  

[Bounce]

K.I.S.S.

Additional points of failure will... in the middle of the night... in the rain.

Manual cutoff valves as the shiznit because you know what they are doing and can control them directly.

Different bikes handle gravity feed differently. I used to fill up, pull out on the road, open the main feeder valve and the gas guage stayed on full for the first 150+ miles while the aux back filled the draining main tank.

Powered feeds usually need you to drain the main some fraction (3/4) before turning on the pump to avoid overfilling the main (and passing it through the overflow to the ground).

[CLAY]

I made my stock tank bigger- it was easy with theBandit.  I bought a wrecked tank on eBay for like 10 bucks, cut her in half, pounded out the dent, and welded in the 3" strip:




Bondoed it up and smoothed it over:

Primed:

I also had the seat rescuplted to fit the tank and had gel added by Spencer (www.greatdaytoride.com)
Black was what I had on the shelf, so black it is.  LD tank:

Stock tank:

This gets me about 270 miles, plus I carry 2/3 of a gallon in MSR bottles on external racks.  I'm pretty safe and ready to do the James Bay Road...

[David Morrow]

On axillary tanks do you ride until your first tank is empty and then let gravity or a pump and fill the first tank back up? Can you rig the low fuel float to turn on a pump to start using the axillary. I've always wanted to put one one my bike but now I do good to stay on the bike for a tank of gas. Curious about this stuff.  

I wait until my main tank is about half full and then lean back and flip open the petcock on the aux tank. I have forgotten to turn it off on occasion and it will overfill the main and go out the vent hose onto the road. Fortunately the only time this happened I was still at the station and saw it before loosing it all.

One time, something rather curious happened. When I opened the petcock on the aux tank, my main tank's vent must have been blocked. The pressure in the main tank forced the gas back to the aux tank, overfilling it, and then out the aux tank's vent. My GF was riding behind me and saw the venting gas and waved me over. I opened the main tank to the sound of a whoosh of air. Never had the problem before and or since then.

http://www.ldrider.ca/fjrtech/fuelcellver2/fuelcellver2.htm

http://www.ldrider.ca/vfr-stuff/vfr-aux-tank/vfr-aux-tank.htm

[Bearly Flying]

Is that a custom made tank? It looks like a 4ga with curved sides in the back.

I designed and cut out the plates to make the fuel cell, then took it to a Welder to Tig Weld it together.

I chose to keep the weight as low as possible, which necessitates the use of the pump. If the pump ever fails I can easily unbolt the tank and drain the cell into the main tank to get me back on the road. ( Minor issue)

The use of the fuel cell gives me pretty close to 500 miles range at normal speeds.

[Slonishku]

I'm still fiddling around with my aux tank setup for the IBR. Two big challenges: 1. the rear luggage rack on the RE5 isn't up to the task of fully supporting a 5 gallon cell- it's a stock rack from the 70's. The best spot I have found is the pillion seat. The problem there is that the metering oil tank is under the seat. I'll need to refill that tank 4-6 times during the rally. So the fuel cell must be attached in such a way as to be easilly removed to get under that seat.

After a lot of convoluted designs have come and gone, I'm starting to think that using ratcheting cargo straps will be the way to go.

Dale, do you have any advice for such a system? It looks like the IBR rules allow for such setups.

[Bounce]

My earlier-referenced GL1200 DIY project at http://www.fjr-tips.org/misc/fc/fc.html used ratcheting tie downs. I didn't do the IBR but passed tech inspection on several smaller rallies. It may have even passed a Dale check at a RTE but I can't remember for sure. The main thing is that someone in authority grabbing it and shaking the hell out of it is convinced that it will not separate from the bike during a wreck.  User straps that are weight-rated way over the actual weight of the cell+fuel (blue straps in the photos).

[Warchild]

Dale, do you have any advice for such a system? It looks like the IBR rules allow for such setups.

Yes, that will work just as long as the strapping is sufficiently strong to retain the cell... ratcheting straps are typically pretty beefy, so you should be good-to-go there.

With regard to that metering oil tank.... if there is any way possible, you should endeavor to create a method to refill this tank without having to lift the cell off the pillion area. The two big challenges there are 1) designing and creating the actual refill  method itself, and 2) you obviously need a way to see how much oil you need in order to refill, but not overfill. If the metering tank is buried under a bunch of components, obviously, that's going to be a drag.

So... if push comes to shove, another option is to design your cell mounting rack such that it is "hinged" on one side, so you only have to remove a strap or two and simply swing the cell out of the wa,y so you can access your metering tank.

Good luck.... you are a real Thrillseeker, riding this antique in the Iron Butt Rally. I will be looking over the RE5's personally at Tech Inspection is Spartenburg, but I know you'll have your shit in one sock!  

 

[2wTraveler]

Or, Would it be possible to re-locate the oil tank on the RE-5?

[Slonishku]

I thought about relocating the tank, but decided that would decrease resilliance and reliability. It's well placed and solid where it is. The oil tank in question feeds the apex seals on the combustion rotor, so it's absolutely vital. The tank is good for about 2000 miles, so I only need to get to it every other day or so.

I've got a few design ideas for the aux fuel cell mount. Now it's time to try 'em out.

[2wTraveler]

or maybe leave the tank where it is and relocate the filler. Use some radiator hose and add a long neck to it coming out the side somewhere. Kinda like the gas tank on a cage is?

[Tony T]

This maybe dumb questions so please bear with me.

My stock tank is rated at 6.61ga. I would love to get as close to the allowable 11.5ga for rallies. So if I add a 5ga tank that would put me over the limit by .11ga.    I heard somewhere, I think, that the IBA allowed some type of temporary fuel displacement in the aux tank, like a empty bottle or something.  


My questions are; Is this still allowed? If so what exactly is used? Do other rallies honer this "adjustment"? Is this too much of a PITA to deal with?

Advice anyone?  

[guitardad]

I obviously can't speak for any rallymaster, but I remember reading a ride report on the LD list recently, where someone had issues because that rallymaster didn't allow temporary fuel displacement - had to be a permanent installation.  So I'd assume that not all rallies use the IBA rules for that sort of thing to the letter.  Also, I believe most rallymasters will include all the fuel hoses 'n plumbing in the volume total, and pay particular attention if the main tank + aux tank are very close to the limit.  Not to say that carrying as much fuel as possible isn't a good idea, just that I'd be very accurate and precise if I was pushing it.

One thing I wanted was to preserve the use of my topcase, even with the cell mounted above the pillion seat.  The tank I ended up with is 11" x 12" x 8", so it should fit low enough to not interfere.  My main tank is just over 6 gallons, and this one is 4, so I'm well under the typical 11.5 gallon limit.  That's still 400 miles theoretical range, probably 350 miles realistically.  And for me, that should be enough - much more and I'll need a pry bar to get my butt off the seat!  

[DNA]

My main tank is only 5.2 Gal and my aux is a 5 gal (that I keep wishing someone would buy so I don't feel so guilty about not installing).

I agree about the top case -love it and do not want to lose it.  If you install the aux over the pillon seat, how will you remove the seat when you need to? If the battery is bad or a fuse is blown?  It seems my seat comes off a lot.  I have looked into this option, and not being able to remove my seat bothers me enough that that option is not going to work for me - unless you have a great idea I have not come up with yet.  

[rajflyboy]

How many miles can a seasoned rider realistically go without stopping?

I can't see myself making it more than 180 to 200 miles at a time.  

[Bounce]

define "seasoned"

1. it depends on the rider
2. it depends on the bike
3. it depends on the prevailing conditions

my max range on my GL1500 with aux fuel was about 310 miles. i would have been able to go farther but the 11 gallons ran out then (and only if nursing it cautiously). my OEM range on the FJR is about 250 miles, i'd like to add an aux fuel that would let me go 400 miles but i don't have the time these days to justify the expense. i can always choose to stop earlier than needed for fuel but i can't refuel on the fly if things are clicking and i'm not ready to stop. on my SiL's Daytona 600 I was ready to stop every 75 to 100 miles because of the riding position (and the Daytonas aren't as cramped as most other 600 class bikes). when testing a 636 for him, i was ready to be off it in 30 minutes.

oh, and in context of really good riders, they are in a whole 'nother world from my comfort zone.

[rajflyboy]

310 Miles.   Not bad even for the mighty Goldwing.   I don't even like going that far is a car myself.  

How do you like the 1500??

[rajflyboy]

How safe is an external fuel cell in the event of a crash???

 

[Slonishku]

This maybe dumb questions so please bear with me.

My stock tank is rated at 6.61ga. I would love to get as close to the allowable 11.5ga for rallies. So if I add a 5ga tank that would put me over the limit by .11ga.    I heard somewhere, I think, that the IBA allowed some type of temporary fuel displacement in the aux tank, like a empty bottle or something.  


My questions are; Is this still allowed? If so what exactly is used? Do other rallies honer this "adjustment"? Is this too much of a PITA to deal with?

Advice anyone?  

If Warchild is the tech inspector, he'll often use (no joke) a can of Alpo dog food with the label stripped off. He knows the volume of the can, and just drops in as many as are needed.

[2wTraveler]

How many miles can a seasoned rider realistically go without stopping?

I can't see myself making it more than 180 to 200 miles at a time.  

I know many others can go further, but on my recent BBG I was comfortable running a tank out before stopping. Usually between 250-260 miles. On a stock seat  

[rajflyboy]

I know many others can go further, but on my recent BBG I was comfortable running a tank out before stopping. Usually between 250-260 miles. On a stock seat  

Not too shabby.  

[Bounce]

310 Miles.   Not bad even for the mighty Goldwing.   I don't even like going that far is a car myself.  How do you like the 1500??

How safe is an external fuel cell in the event of a crash???  

310 ain't sh.. given it sucked down 11 gallons of fuel in the process and i had to keep the speed waaay down. the 1500 was designed in the day of the 55 mph speed limit. keep it below 65 and it gets ok fuel mileage (for a car). usually, at reasonable cruising speed, it got about 32mpg (read something like 250 miles with aux fuel).

i've had the FJR since 2003 and it can run rings around the Wing while going 240 on OEM fuel capacity at the speed where the wing would be sucking fumes by then. all while the FJR is about 300 pounds lighter. the gl1800 is more up-to-date, can do better MPG but is still a heavy bike.

aux fuel is safe if you pick a sanctioned cell and mount it well. Summit Racing has all sorts of cells that meet sanctioning standards (NHRA, etc).

[Black Ice]

The tank is good for about 2000 miles, so I only need to get to it every other day or so.

FTFY.  

[Tony T]

If Warchild is the tech inspector, he'll often use (no joke) a can of Alpo dog food with the label stripped off. He knows the volume of the can, and just drops in as many as are needed.

Thanks for the advice guitardad & Slonishku,   But I'm still undecided about what to do. My bike has a drinking problem and that is what really started this thread. Seat time isn't an issue for me so it would be great to get around 400 miles between fill-ups.

One one hand I could keep my top case that comes in handy, one the other hand I could go to a set-up like Warchilds and have better range and a easier install. (Square cell.)

Though I'd hate to show-up to a rally and be over the limit, that would suck eggs.  


Decisions, decisions . . .  

[Slonishku]

What rallys other than the IBR have the 11 gallon limit?

[Tony T]

I thought all of them followed the IBR rules.  

Maybe not to the letter, but used the IBR as a guideline.

[Slonishku]

The first two times I rode the Cal24, I did it with a 2 gallon plastic gas can from Auto Zone bungeed to the pillion. That would have failed tech inspection at the IBR, and many other rallys. And rightly so. It was pretty much straight, unadulterated jack-assery on my part.

[Tony T]

Note to self; Make sure aux-fuel is properly set up before offering bike as spare to Slonishku for the IBR.  



 

[guitardad]

I agree about the top case -love it and do not want to lose it.  If you install the aux over the pillon seat, how will you remove the seat when you need to? If the battery is bad or a fuse is blown?  It seems my seat comes off a lot.  I have looked into this option, and not being able to remove my seat bothers me enough that that option is not going to work for me - unless you have a great idea I have not come up with yet.  

Dunno if it's a great idea or not, but the basic plan is to put these mounting brackets on the bike: Linky It's made for an R1150RT, but I took some measurments on a friend's bike and they will fit mine.  BMR Products sold me just the brackets.  I'll fab another bracket that stays on the tank, and mates to those brackets.  With only four bolts to remove, I should be able to get the tank off and get access to the pillion easily enough.  The plan is to work out a way to mount the valve on the bike, then use a set of quick-disconnects to plug the hose from the cell into the valve.  

[rajflyboy]

External Fuel cell = Boom Boom in a Crash Sequence

[Tony T]

How safe is an external fuel cell in the event of a crash???

 

The fuel cells we are talking about are certified for use in the NHRA and other racing events. They are required to be securely mounted to the bike. If you read this thread you will find that everyone that has one fabricated some type on mounting bracket that bolts the the bikes frame. You will also find that people have a shutoff valve located near the aux-cell and a quick-disconnect somewhere usually under the seat.

The point of this thread is to share information on how to do this correctly and safely. If you want to debate the safety aspect or logic behind installing a aux-fuel cell to a motorcycle, please start a different thread on that. I would like keep this one focused on the technical aspect of it.

Thanks for understanding.  

[Davo]

How many miles can a seasoned rider realistically go without stopping?

I can't see myself making it more than 180 to 200 miles at a time.  

I have a 650klm range and go 5+ hrs at a stretch most of the time, so in miles 300m +

[Davo]

External Fuel cell = Boom Boom in a Crash Sequence

Why?

Explain your reasoning with supportive evidence.

[olderigetfasteriam]

Don't hold your breath.

[Slonishku]

 

[Ignacio]

What rallys other than the IBR have the 11 gallon limit?

Just to be clear...it's 11.5 gallons for the IBR.  And the Utah 1088 limits to 11.5 gallons also...as well as SPANK.  Likely others I haven't run as well.

 I heard somewhere, I think, that the IBA allowed some type of temporary fuel displacement in the aux tank, like a empty bottle or something.  

There was an exception in 2005 at http://www.ironbuttrally.com/IBR/2005.cfm?DocID=11 with Snapple bottles.

However if somebody thinks rolling into the starting line of the IBR knowingly over the 11.5 gallon limit should get special dispensation...that seems like a pretty big risk to me.  The rider has had well over a year to get their rig in order.  Austin and crew have ability to measure fuel capacity to within 0.01 gallons accurately.  No exceptions in 2007 I know of.

[CLAY]

How many miles can a seasoned rider realistically go without stopping?

I can't see myself making it more than 180 to 200 miles at a time.  

 Once I get the drinking water balance down, I can go the full 270 my tank allows me.  For me it's about the head game, entertainment (sat radio), comfort (redone seat/different foot positions), and monitoring my fluid intake/urine output.  After the first stop I can usually do the full 270 with no problems- usually I find I need to drink a bit more in the last 50 miles to make sure I have to go potty eacily at the fuel stop.  Dehydration on a bike in the summer is far easier than one would think.

[sloth911]

I know nothing about this, just took the picture, pretty big tank extension:

http://picasaweb.google.com/homerGTx/EphrataOct2008#5303172650725370674

[Tony T]

I know nothing about this, just took the picture, pretty big tank extension:

http://picasaweb.google.com/homerGTx/EphrataOct2008#5303172650725370674

That would be John Ryan
http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36308

And;

http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,40581.0.html

[JimWilliamson]

I added the Jaz 5gal Drag Race Horizontal (with foam), from Jegs.com for a few months.



Standard bike capacity about 4.75 gal. I had to fab the mounting frame. I didn't use the included AN fittings as plumbing for them was too costly. I went the route ultralight fuel tanks often use - rubber push-in bushings with automotive flexible black fuel line. The grommets seem flimsy but they're amazing and never leak.



Since the fuel cell is higher than the fuel system I used valves to separate it from the main tank. I put two valves onto the aux tank so I could control a reserve amount. The main/top/back valve I could reach around and open when moving. The valve on the bottom I had to stop and walk around to open. A few more photos of the setup on this crazy long, post-trip gear write-up page:
http://www.jimwilliamson.net/motorcycle/2005-09-us-n-canada/gear/

Ready to order parts?

5 Gal fuel cell
http://www.jegs.com/i/JAZ/547/250-005-01/10002/-1

Rubber bushing (drill hole in plastic tank the size of the bushing - push in bushing - push in fuel valve, etc - done)
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/ftb01.php

Fuel valve
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/ffv2.php

Fuel elbow
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/ffelbow.php

Weight - only an issue when needing to pick up a sideways bike    I never noticed it when moving.

[yotes65]

Wow... Tony, thanks for starting this thread... I had plan on going with a TourTank & have it painted to match my bike... I think I will now go with a Jaz Tank w/ one of the covers made by Linda T... never thought about mounting in over the Pillion Seat... now to come up with a Mounting Bracket Design...

Thanks Again!

[Tony T]

Wow... Tony, thanks for starting this thread... I had plan on going with a TourTank & have it painted to match my bike... I think I will now go with a Jaz Tank w/ one of the covers made by Linda T... never thought about mounting in over the Pillion Seat... now to come up with a Mounting Bracket Design...

Thanks Again!

I thought about the Tourtank also, they look great but they are too frigging expensive. I found another tourtank type setup years ago that came with all the plumbing, (Forgot who made it.) but the plumbing was all plastic IIRC.

This is not something I want to cut corners on. So far I bought a 4ga Jaz tank, found one of my old unused filters, grounding wire, bought a cheap spare primary tank off ebay, and made a bottom bracket for the aux tank. Eventually I'll figure out a way to mount it to the frame without hacking away at the bodywork. That's really my stumbling block now.  

Nice setup Jim,   No leaks eh?

[patl]

Is there an advantage/disadvantage between the two 5-gal cells that Summit Racing sells:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-290101/ (plastic, from Summit)
and
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/JZP-210-505-03/ (aluminum, by Jaz)
?

I'm looking for a 5-gallon cell for gravity fed application (not fuel pump).

[Tony T]

Is there an advantage/disadvantage between the two 5-gal cells that Summit Racing sells:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-290101/ (plastic, from Summit)
and
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/JZP-210-505-03/ (aluminum, by Jaz)
?

I'm looking for a 5-gallon cell for gravity fed application (not fuel pump).

As far as I can tell there is no difference between the plastic Jegs, Jaz, and Summit fell cells besides price.

Both of the ones you have hot-linked should work just fine for a gravity fed system, (as long as the Aux tank is mounted higher than the main tank.) at least they are the ones everyone seems to be using.

[Slonishku]

I'm signing up for a pair of welding classes at my local JC this spring. I'm hoping to gain some aluminum welding skill to allow me to create various bike add-ons myself. I don't have anything specific in mind just yet, but Dean Tanji's FJR cells are my inspiration. Rugged, practical, and very good looking.

[scramblerracer123]

I bought a spare stock tank for the VFR and over the winter am going to experiment with enlarging it.  I would really like to get to the 300 mile range with the bike, so I only need to add 2.5 gallons.  Anyone tried this route with a vfr, or similar shaped tank?  

[CLAY]

I did it with my Bandit.  See page 2.  It's still working flawlessly.  I'd like to add a 4 gal aux tank to get to the 11.5 (I'd be at 11.2) gallons just to see how it goes.

[scramblerracer123]

I gave up on trying to enlarge a stock tank and mounted a 4gal plastic jegs fuel cell.  Might be a dumb question, but do I need to ground the fill ring on my plastic cell?  

[David Morrow]

A ground would never hurt. I recall from back in my boating days that you should always keep the filler handle from the pump in contact with the tank ( assuming an outboard motor & ungrounded tank) to avoid sparks from static. I'm no electrical genius, but I would go with the ounce (28.47 grams here in Canada) of prevention. On the other hand, I bet there are a lot of plastic aux tanks out there which are not grounded. Pick your poison.

[scramblerracer123]

David, was it you that had the great write up on mounting a fuel cell on a VFR.  If so, thanks, I looked over that write up many times.  

[David Morrow]

David, was it you that had the great write up on mounting a fuel cell on a VFR.  If so, thanks, I looked over that write up many times.  

This one ?
http://www.ldrider.ca/vfr-stuff/vfr-aux-tank/vfr-aux-tank.htm

That would be me.

I'm happy that it was of value to someone out there. Glad to help.

[D-Mac]

Fantastic write-up!

I'm doing mine pretty much the same way (except I decided to have a bung welded to the bottom of the tank - although I'm certain a bulkhead fitting would have been fine too).

Good tip about getting the right pipe tape. I hadn't realized that there was different types. I think you just explained why the white tape on the petcock of my 1970 Honda "melted" last year and then proceeded to clog up the carbs I had just cleaned  

[David Morrow]

Good tip about getting the right pipe tape. I hadn't realized that there was different types. I think you just explained why the white tape on the petcock of my 1970 Honda "melted" last year and then proceeded to clog up the carbs I had just cleaned  

I have a little sign in my kitchen that hung in our kitchen when I was growing up. It says :

" We get too soon old and too late smart "

[scramblerracer123]

Anyone have any suggestions on getting the plastic aviation style fuel cell filler cap to loosen.  If I didn't think the plastic turn part would break off I think I could lift the rear of the bike trying to pull this thing out each time.  I am considering using the dremel to open up the inside ring some, but am afraid it will then leak.  Anyone had any trouble with this?

[David Morrow]

Anyone have any suggestions on getting the plastic aviation style fuel cell filler cap to loosen.  If I didn't think the plastic turn part would break off I think I could lift the rear of the bike trying to pull this thing out each time.  I am considering using the dremel to open up the inside ring some, but am afraid it will then leak.  Anyone had any trouble with this?

I've seen a couple different styles of those fillers; can you attach a pic ?

[scramblerracer123]

Here are some pics of the cheap plastic fuel cell filler that is giving me trouble.

[David Morrow]

I have one similar to that but it's still in the shop drawer. I think I found an alternate solution because it was to fiddly.

I'm not sure how much trouble you want to go through to avoid future problems, but here's an idea if you want to go a slightly different route.

1) Make up an aluminum plate with the same outside diameter as the fitting that you have on your tank now.
2) Drill the six holes to match your existing fitting to bolt to your tank.
3) Cut a center hole to fit a screw on fuel cap bung
4) Weld the bung onto the plate
5) You now have a screw on filler cap

If you're really stuck, I can make the plate (no charge); you'd just have to buy the bung & cap and have it welded on. I have the lathe & other tools to do it right. I also have a spare bung so I can cut the inside hole for a perfect fit.

You can see the cap & bung on my tank here - very good quality.

http://www.ldrider.ca/fjrtech/fuelcellver2/fuelcellver2.htm

At Mark Williams the part numbers are Cap. - 5030 and Bung - 5020 and the pair cost about $45. There are other vendors out there.

[Tony T]

What about adding something like this? http://www.jegs.com/p/JAZ-Products/JAZ-Fast-Fill-Fuel-Cell-Components/746856/10002/-1

Might not be roll-over safe though.

[David Morrow]

I saw one like that on the Dean Tanji aux tank for the FJR. It would not be my first choice when you could get one that lays flatter to the tank. I hadn't thought about roll over issues but it's a good point.

[discochris]

I actually just did a write-up on my most recent aux fuel installation here:
http://www.chrisberg.net/cbnet/buellcell.htm

My old install (based on David Morrow's old install), is here:
http://www.chrisberg.net/cbnet/fuelcell.htm

[Tony T]

This one looks better. Doesn't have the huge neck and sports a screw-type cap so it will not leak from a rollover. Though at $128 . . .  

http://www.jegs.com/i/JAZ-Products/547/391-250-03/10002/-1?parentProductId=746856

Bolt pattern looks wrong too.  

[David Morrow]

This one looks better. Doesn't have the huge neck and sports a screw-type cap so it will not leak from a rollover. Though at $128 . . .  

http://www.jegs.com/i/JAZ-Products/547/391-250-03/10002/-1?parentProductId=746856

Bolt pattern looks wrong too.  

Tony, that is similar to what I have in mind if I was to make up a new plate with welded bung in place except lower profile - maybe 1" above the plate so there would be no leverage on the neck in case of an impact.

[Tony T]

Tony, that is similar to what I have in mind if I was to make up a new plate with welded bung in place except lower profile - maybe 1" above the plate so there would be no leverage on the neck in case of an impact.

Ahh, I see it now that I re-read your post.  

(OD'in on NyQuil here.)

[scramblerracer123]

 I had thought about one of those but the cost is too much.  I could make one, but I like the flush cap, just wondering if there are any tricks to getting this type filler to function better.  Maybe it is just because it is the cheap plastic version that came on a $100 tank.

[Slonishku]

I actually just did a write-up on my most recent aux fuel installation here:
http://www.chrisberg.net/cbnet/buellcell.htm

My old install (based on David Morrow's old install), is here:
http://www.chrisberg.net/cbnet/fuelcell.htm

In your write-up, you mention "a couple sites that were selling spun aluminum fuel tanks, one specifically talking about using
them for auxiliary motorcycle tanks". Do you have any lins to those sites?

[CLAY]

In your write-up, you mention "a couple sites that were selling spun aluminum fuel tanks, one specifically talking about using
them for auxiliary motorcycle tanks". Do you have any lins to those sites?

+1

[Slonishku]

Found one! This site is great! These tanks are very moto-centric as they have internal baffles and available roll-over valves. The cost to have the valves installed is pretty darned reasonable, too.

http://www.tourtank.com/index.html  

[discochris]

Tourtank is the main site I know of.

I actually ordered mine locally from a racing shop, but they went out of business last year.
Pretty much the same thing though. I actually ordered a non-venting cap from Tourtank for my cell, and I got it
in a day or two.

[guitardad]

Been following along as I did my tank project.  Here's the result...





The cell was given to me by a friend, who ran it on his K1200GT in the 2007 IBR, and I had the mounting tabs welded on.  The brackets that mount to the rear subframe came from BMR Products, and the rest I fabbed myself.  My plan was to get them powdercoated, but I wanted a few weeks to run the tank before the CF1k.  So that will have to wait.  Whaddaya think?

[discochris]

Very nice setup.  I know a lot of people who have run cells on RT's (should be similar to the RS). Another idea is just to remove the rear part of the seat and replace it with the cell. That's what a couple of friends of mine did, and it worked really well, and allowed the cell to sit lower on the bike.

[guitardad]

Thanks.  This cell's shape didn't lend itself to "snuggling" down into the pillion seat area very well.  And I was a little concerned about getting it high enough to simply gravity-feed it into the main tank.  The RS has a plastic tank, so I wanted to put my bulkhead fitting into the metal plate that carries the fuel pump and filter.  That plate is about 2" above the bottom of the tank, and has very little empty space.  The spot I drilled into it puts the fitting more like 4" above the bottom of the tank.

[Slonishku]

If the pillion seat isn't being used, you could remove it and thereby create an even larger under-tank cubby area. Maybe even create a goretex liner for the area...

[DNA]

Nice!

Clifford got some new range!

Good luck in at the CF1K.

Give the beer girls a tip for me.  

[2000TJ]

I picked up a few nuggets of wisdom from this thread so I guess it's only fair that I share.  Here's my setup on an 07 Tiger.  Th tank is an off the shelf 4gal from Summit.  I still plan on making a few cosmetic changes but it's fully operational.  It sits a good deal higher than I might like but the tiger has long legs to begin with so the deck was stacked against me....

[Tony T]

Been awhile since I checked this thread.  

You're right 2000TJ, looks like that cell is way up in the air. Have you noticed the higher center of additional weight when riding?

Looks good though.  

[2000TJ]

Been awhile since I checked this thread.  

You're right 2000TJ, looks like that cell is way up in the air. Have you noticed the higher center of additional weight when riding?

Looks good though.  

I've only put 2 or 3 tanks thru it so far but haven't really noticed it yet.  The only real concen I have is behaving myself when it's loaded so as not to send too much fuel out the overflow.

[DNA]

Nice job - color me jealous.  AS for a high center - it is not as bad a 140 lb passenger onthe back - so i expect it shoudl be similar to riding 2 -up?

Why am I surptised your tinger has a metal tank - my Sprint is platic, so I was always afraid to drill it.

[2000TJ]

Nice job - color me jealous.  AS for a high center - it is not as bad a 140 lb passenger onthe back - so i expect it shoudl be similar to riding 2 -up?

Why am I surptised your tinger has a metal tank - my Sprint is platic, so I was always afraid to drill it.

I would think that the plastic would be easier to drill.  You could get away with a simple spade bit instead of the step bit i had to purchase for $35.00.  Bulkhead fittings for a platic tank aren't a problem either.