Getting a used Suzuki SV650S instead of the Yamaha R1 as a starter bike

[TitaniumVT]

After years of putting it off, I'm interested in taking up motorcycle riding. My ultimate goal is to get a 2008 R1 (sex on wheels and a great bike from everything I've read), but I'm concerned that's it's going to be too powerful for me to learn on. My rational, disciplined side says get something that's smaller and more forgiving, learn to ride for a season or two, and then upgrade to an R1.  I see people recommend the Suzuki 650SV as one of the best starter bikes you can buy.

I wanted to ask for your advice on three things:

First, if you were just starting to ride, would you consider simply going with the R1, and being cautious while you're learning?  I don't have any concern about being a disciplined/responsible rider. The reason I ask is that I can still pick up a brand new remnant inventory R1 at various dealers...If I wait a few years, I'd have to find one used. I like the idea of being the original owner since I'm planning to keep the bike for years, but on the other hand, I'm trying to be smart in how I go about this. I figure there's no point in getting a new R1 and dropping it as I learn, or having my skills stunted by having a bike that's too much.

Am I being overly concerned about how difficult an R1 would be to learn on?


Secondly, what do you think about getting a used SV650S as a starter bike, instead?  I'm thinking second gen (2003 or newer). Any alternate recommendations?


lastly, are the differences between the SV650 and SV650S purely cosmetic, or are there mechanical differences as well? I'm finding conflicting information about this online, and when people recommend the SV650, I'm not sure if they're distinguishing it specifically from the SV650S, or if either would be equally well suited.

Thanks in advance for any guidance you can provide.

[kevin_stevens]

It does not matter how responsible and careful you are, you do not have the skills or experience needed to control a 160HP motorcycle.  Even an SV650 is a lot of bike for a beginner.

Absolutely you should buy a used motorcycle.  Motorcycles depreciate rapidly,  and at this point you have no idea of what kind of motorcycle you ACTUALLY want (you THINK you want an R1, but with no riding experience you can't know if a SS bike is comfortable or even tolerable for you.).  You should really only buy a motorcycle new when you are absolutely certain it is the bike you want, and you intend to keep it long enough to make it worthwhile.  Plus you're going to drop it.

AFAIK the SV650 vs SV650S is just a matter of minor parts like bars and fairings.

KeS

[jamesgino]

The reason I ask is that I can still pick up a brand new remnant inventory R1 at various dealers...If I wait a few years, I'd have to find one used. I like the idea of being the original owner since I'm planning to keep the bike for years, but on the other hand, I'm trying to be smart in how I go about this. I figure there's no point in getting a new R1 and dropping it as I learn, or having my skills stunted by having a bike that's too much.

Why are you so worried about getting that particular year? It may be a good bike, but they could also make it better over the next year or so while you are getting more experience on a used bike.

at this point you have no idea of what kind of motorcycle you ACTUALLY want (you THINK you want an R1, but with no riding experience you can't know if a SS bike is comfortable or even tolerable for you.).

I started of with the cruiser style of bike. I'm just now about ready to buy my first sport tourer. Take your time and ride different styles to see what fits you best. Are you just riding around town, long trips, or maybe just on the weekends? Take your time before you get a new bike and shell out all that cash.

Also read this if you have not already:
http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,6707.0.html

Good luck and +1 for being smart about learning how to ride a bike!

[TitaniumVT]

Kevin, thanks for your thoughts. I think you're right, and I'm heavily leaning towards getting a simpler starter bike. I like the SV650S a lot, and after doing more research this afternoon, it seems to me like a lot of sites recommend them for beginning riders. Plus they're actually pretty affordable on the used bike market.

What prompted my questions is that I was at the Yamaha dealership the other day, and the owner was pushing me to get the R1 now over the R6 (or any 600 class bike for that matter). He has thirty years of riding experience and blah, blah, blah....I told him that as much as I loved the bike, it seemed crazy to consider as a first ride. He insisted that the bike could be as docile as I choose to make it, and that he'd always take more power over less so he could power out of bad situations in a flash, and that being able to do that had saved him more than once.  

I'm going to start looking for an SV650S. I'll be taking motorcycle training next month.

[Tony T]

and that he'd always take more power over less so he could power out of bad situations in a flash, and that being able to do that had saved him more than once.  

 

You're more likely to power into a bad situation in a flash.

Don't listen to that guy, he just wants to sell you a more expensive bike. By him saying that I doubt his actual riding experience. There are other ways of getting out of a squeeze, brakes and maneuvering is what you're more likely to use.  

[TitaniumVT]

James, thanks for your post as well.

I've just loved the look of the 2005-2008  R1 since I saw my first one on the road a few years ago, and I know the bike is legendary. From what I've read, the 2007 and 2008 models have some minor refinements and deliver power a little more linearly, reducing some of the high end twitchiness of the prior years' models.

I mainly intend to do in-city casual street riding. I have two other cars, and the bike is going to be competing with my Porsche as a choice for sunny day driving. Since I'll be getting reasonable (but not excessive) use out of it, I like the idea of getting a bike that I'd be happy to own for many years. Given my intentions, I really don't expect to outgrow the R1 for a long time (if ever).

While I'd love to pick up a brand new R1, common sense tells me not to rush it, and to go for the SV. You and Kevin may be right - by the time I feel ready for the R1, maybe I'll decide I want something else instead.

[TitaniumVT]

 

You're more likely to power into a bad situation in a flash.

Don't listen to that guy, he just wants to sell you a more expensive bike. By him saying that I doubt his actual riding experience. There are other ways of getting out of a squeeze, brakes and maneuvering is what you're more likely to use.  

It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me either Tony, but I didn't know enough at the time to dispute his recommendation. Funny thing is the price difference isn't that significant on a remnant R1. It was only about a $1000 differential between a 2009 R6 and a 2008 R1, so in some respects, the R1 looked like the better value. I'll overcome the urge to buy one now. If I still want one in a few years, hopefully I can find an unmolested example without too much trouble.

[Tony T]

Welcome to STN BTW  

Stick around, there's a wealth of knowledge for the taking, you just have to ask.  

Now go over and introduce yourself proper-like at the welcome thread here  

[Baz]

An SV 650 is a great bike for the most seasoned. I have rode both, and while the R-1 is certainly 160hp of shits & giggles, The SV-650 will put just as big of a grin on your face for it's flickability.

I have seen even the most seasoned of riders get into a mess of trouble on a 1000 cc bike. Suicidal for the beginner.

[kevin_stevens]

James, thanks for your post as well.

I've just loved the look of the 2005-2008  R1 since I saw my first one on the road a few years ago, and I know the bike is legendary. From what I've read, the 2007 and 2008 models have some minor refinements and deliver power a little more linearly, reducing some of the high end twitchiness of the prior years' models.

I mainly intend to do in-city casual street riding. I have two other cars, and the bike is going to be competing with my Porsche as a choice for sunny day driving. Since I'll be getting reasonable (but not excessive) use out of it, I like the idea of getting a bike that I'd be happy to own for many years. Given my intentions, I really don't expect to outgrow the R1 for a long time (if ever).

While I'd love to pick up a brand new R1, common sense tells me not to rush it, and to go for the SV. You and Kevin may be right - by the time I feel ready for the R1, maybe I'll decide I want something else instead.

They're certainly nice bikes, but they're not particularly "legendary", and people are falling all over themselves to buy the new 2009 now.  (Gee, wonder if that has anything to do with the sales guy wanting to help you buy a leftover 2008?)

Statistics show that the vast majority of riders change bikes frequently; the number I saw was either 1.5 or 3 years, can't remember but I suspect the former.  A lot of them start with the intent to get "the last bike they'll ever need" and hold onto it forever.  It's not really a practical approach.  Think about how many cars you've driven in your life.  You have a relatively HUGE amount of experience to apply to your impression of what new car you'd like.  Yet you'd still want to test drive several different models - maybe even different types of cars (hmm, do I really want a Porsche or maybe that Audi V8 might be cool).  Knowing *nothing* about bikes except what the magazines say, how can you even formulate a decision?  SS bikes like the R1 are about the WORST bikes for in-city casual street riding.  Absolute worst.  Narrow steering lock, extreme riding position, lousy visibility, tall first gear, maximum under-seat exhaust butt heat, expensive fairings - you name it.  Some of us choose to ride them anyway, but it is *despite* their characteristics, not *because* of them.

You're headed down the right path - pick an inexpensive used bike that you can re-sell for what you paid for it once you've decided you want something else.  Find out what you like about it, and what you hate about it - not what the magazines like and hate about it, what *YOU* like and hate about it.  Find something that has more of the former and less of the latter.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

KeS

[TitaniumVT]

Welcome to STN BTW  

Stick around, there's a wealth of knowledge for the taking, you just have to ask.  

Now go over and introduce yourself proper-like at the welcome thread here  

Thanks! This seems like a great forum. I'll definitely be sticking around, and look forward to getting to know you all better.

[TitaniumVT]

They're certainly nice bikes, but they're not particularly "legendary", and people are falling all over themselves to buy the new 2009 now.  (Gee, wonder if that has anything to do with the sales guy wanting to help you buy a leftover 2008?)

Statistics show that the vast majority of riders change bikes frequently; the number I saw was either 1.5 or 3 years, can't remember but I suspect the former.  A lot of them start with the intent to get "the last bike they'll ever need" and hold onto it forever.  It's not really a practical approach.  Think about how many cars you've driven in your life.  You have a relatively HUGE amount of experience to apply to your impression of what new car you'd like.  Yet you'd still want to test drive several different models - maybe even different types of cars (hmm, do I really want a Porsche or maybe that Audi V8 might be cool).  Knowing *nothing* about bikes except what the magazines say, how can you even formulate a decision?  SS bikes like the R1 are about the WORST bikes for in-city casual street riding.  Absolute worst.  Narrow steering lock, extreme riding position, lousy visibility, tall first gear, maximum under-seat exhaust butt heat, expensive fairings - you name it.  Some of us choose to ride them anyway, but it is *despite* their characteristics, not *because* of them.

You're headed down the right path - pick an inexpensive used bike that you can re-sell for what you paid for it once you've decided you want something else.  Find out what you like about it, and what you hate about it - not what the magazines like and hate about it, what *YOU* like and hate about it.  Find something that has more of the former and less of the latter.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

KeS

Excellent insight, Kevin. Thanks. Seems like I've got a lot to learn about motorcycles.  I appreciate you guys humoring us newbies. You've probably saved more than a few lives by sharing your collective wisdom in the Beginner's Garage.

[TitaniumVT]

An SV 650 is a great bike for the most seasoned. I have rode both, and while the R-1 is certainly 160hp of shits & giggles, The SV-650 will put just as big of a grin on your face for it's flickability.

I have seen even the most seasoned of riders get into a mess of trouble on a 1000 cc bike. Suicidal for the beginner.

Awesome to hear from someone with direct experience with both. Thanks Baz. I'm definitely going to start with SV650S. Talking to you guys has really helped me to make the decision.

[kevin_stevens]

I appreciate you guys humoring us newbies. You've probably saved more than a few lives by sharing your collective wisdom in the Beginner's Garage.

Yes, well, they say no good deed ever goes unpunished.  

KeS

[Zerosum]

There's already been a wealth of good information posted for you, TVT, but I'll chime in anyway.  You seem to fixated on the R1 as being THE bike, the raison d'être for learning to ride.  I'm not trying to insult, but that's the WRONG outlook to have when getting into riding.  You're focusing on the tool, and not the activity.

In my opionon, this is the same thing as an inexperienced person saying "Man, I want to ski down that Black Diamond slope", or "Man, I really want to kayak down those Class 5 rapids."  It only sounds reasonable to them because they have no idea of what they'd be throwing themselves into.  Yeah, they might survive it, but don't you think they'd be better skiers or kayakers if they started out in situations where one screw-up wouldn't kill them?  

Ask yourself, honestly: why do I want an R1?  

Are your answers about the image of you it would project?  Confidence?  Fearlessness?  Prowess?  Badassedness?  That is ego.  At that point, this 160hp machine has become an accessory to your vanity, and not a tool though which you excersise judgement, wisdom, and true skill to have fun and keep from dying.

If your answers are about "speed", "performance", etc, I'll let you in on a secret:  Any motorcycle you get is going to feel like a freaking rocket to you.  Even a 650 twin will out-accelerate just about anything on four wheels.  Frankly, a novice rider doesn't have the skills in place to distinguish the differences in "performance" between a 650cc twin and a 1000cc sportbike.  Unless you count the bike wheelieling out from under you as "performance."  

And if your answer is something like "I want to be able to keep up with my friends"... if your "friends" make you ride over your head... you need new friends.

Like Kevin said, you should get a managable, forgiving bike and ride.  Ride the crap out of it.  At least 5K miles.  Preferably closer to 10K.  Spend time riding and discovering what YOU like, rather than reading magazine articles and talking to douchebag sales guys who probably don't even ride themselves.  (Go ahead, ask them what they ride.  Most of the sales guys I've ever talked to sort of mumble something and change the subject. )  

I'm not really a fan of the SV650S.  I think the ergonomics of the bike are terrible.  The handlebars are stupid-low.  It may feel "good" in the showroom, but it's a totally different thing to be holding yourself up for extended periods of time with those things, especially when braking.  IMHO, comfort is important in a first bike.  If you're comfortable, you'll be more likely to ride it a lot and gain necessary experience.  Wider handlebars also give you the leverage to easily correct the sort of errors that all newbies make.   Have you considered the Yamaha FZ-6?  Or the Ninja 650R?

[jamesgino]

Good luck with your bike search! Another small bit of advice if I may - You might even want to start looking for a smaller bike.

Honda Rebel / Kawi Ninja

Both 250's that will help you get the feel for bikes before ou jump on something too big. My wife loved learning on the Rebel, and there are plenty of people around that rave about the Ninja. I'd like to try one for myself.

Then again if you watch yourself and you respect  the power in your hands you will do just fine.

[PirateT7]

I agree with the rest of the folks here. There's a reason that the first thread pinned in the Beginner's Garage is there. - we'd rather see you moving up through the bikes as the years go on, better than seeing you quit because a big one bit you ... or worse.

There's nothing wrong with being a beginner - we all started somewhere.

[Marcster]

TitaniumVT --

The ergonomics of the SV650 vs. the SV650S are a little different.  The naked SV650 has a more upright seating position and uses a handlebar vs. clip-ons on the SV650s.  There is also a SV650SF which is basically the SV650S but with the addition of a lower fairing:



However, I see listings on Craigslist and elsewhere that are SV650S with the "F"'s fairing added on.  While fairings are nice in terms of wind deflection (and appearance, though opinions vary), they are very expensive to replace for beginner drops.  If you really like the SV650S, you can buy that and run it for 1,000 miles or so till you feel confident and then add the lower fairing to it.

Personally, I can't sit for more than a few minutes on a SV650S in the showroom.  The ergonomics are way off for me.  While a sportbike riding position does become comfortable at speed (when the wind is lifting your chest), it can be murderous in stop and go city riding (as I understand it this is why you see sportbike riders shaking their wrists out at stoplights).

One other suggestion, if you are absolutely certain you will like the R1 and you have space in your garage for two bikes (and cash):
1) Buy a used SV650 or SV650S and run it for the season.
2) Buy a leftover R1 in the dead of Winter (09/10) and have it delivered "dry".
3) Glean info from other ST.Ners as to set the R1 up for long-term storage.
4) Start mixing in use of the R1 with your SV650S during the 2010 season.

You might find that you want to keep both!  Plenty of ST.Ners have 2-5 bikes.  The SV650 (and by default the SV650S and SV650SF) are regarded as excellent one-up sport-touring bikes.  You might set up the SV650S with hard-bags and a topcase for touring and grocery store runs (yes, errands!) and keep the R1 unadorned strictly for barn-burning highway runs.

However, if you later decide that the R1 isn't for you, you will most certainly take a huge hit on depreciation even though the R1 is "brand-new".

I using www.searchtempest.com to search multiple Craigslists at the same time.  You're money will go further to buy a used bike from a private owner vs. a dealership.

One other thing to keep in mind -- even the SV650 will out accelerate most Porsches:

Performance
Corrected 1/4 mile: 11.87 sec. @ 110.02 mph
0-60 mph: 3.65 sec.
0-100 mph: 9.94 sec.
Top-gear roll-on, 60-80 mph: 4.44 sec.
Fuel mileage (low/high/average): 38/44/41

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/roadtests/middleweight_motorcycle_comparison/index.html

[McHack]

I'm a semi-experienced rider...  I rode the crap out of motocross bikes in my youth.   Now, I'm going thru my mid-life crisis at 45 & wanted to regain my love of riding.  

So,  this spring I picked up a used 2006 SV650S.   These things have plenty of grunt to get someone who's completely inexperienced into trouble.    Off the line,  you're as quick as a 600cc supersport, & only start to drop off once you hit 90mph & higher...  and, for a n00b,  thats ALOT.

The thing you may not like about a 650s, is the riding position...  I thought I'd love it.   In reality,  noone needs that much lean for the street, & you'll end up doing some mods just to make it tolerable.
It'll have you folded up,  just like a super sport...   Before you disregard this statement, because I admit to be 45...  I'm pretty athletic, & work out pretty much every day.   You wouldnt think I'm 45, if you met me.  

Anyway,  for me... its been a fun bike, & a great place to get my feet wet again...  but, it hasnt done anything that I found remotely scary.   But,  I have probably 10 years worth of dirt bike experience...

At this point,  I'm already researching my next bike...  which is why I came to this site.

[birdrunner]

What prompted my questions is that I was at the Yamaha dealership the other day, and the owner was pushing me to get the R1 now over the R6 (or any 600 class bike for that matter). He has thirty years of riding experience and blah, blah, blah....I told him that as much as I loved the bike, it seemed crazy to consider as a first ride. He insisted that the bike could be as docile as I choose to make it, and that he'd always take more power over less so he could power out of bad situations in a flash, and that being able to do that had saved him more than once. .

I'd be looking for a new dealer,  he's obviously only concerned with his short term goals, not yours.