Buell's Future Uncertain?

[Kootenanny]

Hey, where's Kootenanny?  When I said Harley forced Buell to use Sportster engines before the 1125R he insisted over and over that it just wasn't so!  

I'm right here--writing a post while you put this up.

I still disagree with you.  I don't understand why you guys think H-D was "forcing" Buell to use their engines.  He went to them, originally, and built bikes with H-D engines in them for several years before H-D bought in.

[Castaway]

I personally like Buell as a brand and wouldn't care to see the bikes sold as HD sport bikes. I think there's a lot to like about the unconventional approach Buell took to many aspects of bike design, but the sticking with the HD motor never made sense to me, and I'm having a hard time with the 1125, mostly from an aesthetics POV, but I don't get the radiator scoops as a practical matter.

[Schneegz]

I don't understand why you guys think H-D was "forcing" Buell to use their engines.  He went to them, originally, and built bikes with H-D engines in them for several years before H-D bought in.

Hey, it's not me saying it this time.  It's Dale's "confidential source with high-level contacts inside Harley-Davidson"!  

[chornbe]

I'm right here--writing a post while you put this up.

I still disagree with you.  I don't understand why you guys think H-D was "forcing" Buell to use their engines.  He went to them, originally, and built bikes with H-D engines in them for several years before H-D bought in.

True story. Erik was absolutely in love with the Evo engines...

Buell... Just slap HD on the side of them... or "Buell, by Harley-Davidson". They need that closer named association, and they need to merge/blend the freaking dealer network. Drop the XR1200. For the same money, the Lighting(?) is a far, far better bike. And for the sake of all that is good and holy, put the Rotax engine in the FL frame bikes (tourers).

Then watch their lead in touring bikes jump from impressive to untouchable. The new frame with Brembo brakes and ABS, plus that Rotax engine... Dear Honda... Better cut the price of that 'Wing by $6k or else.

[Schneegz]

In my view, Harley’s stewardship of Buell Motorcycles has been a classic case of a missed opportunity. The acquisition of Buell was a great opportunity for the MoCo to develop a line of race-bred sportbikes that could have made Harley a serious contender in that market.  But, Harley-Davidson blew it.

The company’s refusal to allow Buell to use any engine but the air-cooled, V-Twin, Sportster-derived Evolution engine effectively throttled Buell from the very beginning.  Whatever advantages may have accrued from implementing the Buell “trilogy of tech” in a sporting motorcycle were largely negated by the use of the underpowered Evolution powerplant.  Harley seems not to have understood that creating a technically sophisticated sportbike that would get its lunch eaten by any 600cc sportbike produced by the Big Four was nothing but a recipe for failure.

Dale, you hit the nail on the head, my man.  I've been saying the same thing for years.

[Mastros2]

And for the sake of all that is good and holy, put the Rotax engine in the FL frame bikes (tourers).

Then watch their lead in touring bikes jump from impressive to untouchable. The new frame with Brembo brakes and ABS, plus that Rotax engine... Dear Honda... Better cut the price of that 'Wing by $6k or else.

Hmmmm, that does sound interesting!  

[st ryder]

True story. Erik was absolutely in love with the Evo engines...

Buell... Just slap HD on the side of them... or "Buell, by Harley-Davidson". They need that closer named association, and they need to merge/blend the freaking dealer network. Drop the XR1200. For the same money, the Lighting(?) is a far, far better bike. And for the sake of all that is good and holy, put the Rotax engine in the FL frame bikes (tourers).

Then watch their lead in touring bikes jump from impressive to untouchable. The new frame with Brembo brakes and ABS, plus that Rotax engine... Dear Honda... Better cut the price of that 'Wing by $6k or else.

Erik said it himself years ago, that he wouldn't *want*  a LC engine in his bikes; that the Sportster  engine was best suited for his bikes/design phiosophy. Was he just blowing smoke because that's all he had at that time?  

I think you underestimate or misjudge the TC96 engine and the Harley esthetic to think a Rotax twin could subplant it in the FL chassis. Perhaps if used  in a new, ground up HD "ST", yes, but not the FL. That's not  what  HD buyers want in a  FL or other HD  "classic" line of bikes.

[Lon]

I doubbt there's much profit or Harley wouldn't  drop them ??

HD bought MV Agusta.  While, er, "a cool name", MV Agusta isn't what one would consider a 'cash cow'; more like a 'debt cow'...

I can't imagine that MV Agusta is more profitable than Buell.

[Brad1445]

...

I can't imagine that MV Agusta is more profitable than Buell.

MV has far more potential.  More prestige, better build quality, better aesthetic design they can command a higher dollar.  It will take years for Buell to regain the reliability creed it lost during the 1125 cluster

[Schneegz]

MV has far more potential.  More prestige, better build quality, better aesthetic design they can command a higher dollar.  It will take years for Buell to regain the reliability creed it lost during the 1125 cluster

So, the 1125 series damaged Buell's credibility, but MV Agusta's multiple bankruptcies didn't damage theirs?  

[DaleFranks]

Here's another news flash.  There are lots of people inside Harley who don't understand what the MV Agusta deal accomplished.

[Brad1445]

So, the 1125 series damaged Buell's credibility, but MV Agusta's multiple bankruptcies didn't damage theirs?  

when you go to ride you need to start a bike, not a companies bank account.  I have no interest in hanging at dealers service shops.

Design excellence will overtime make the MV a Ducati like prestige bike that both performs mechanically and looks good doing it.

Buell could be fixed but it would take all new management, maybe that is where MV can help.

I love Belt drive and handling of the buell.  Wrap it in a package that you can be proud of and take pride in the workmanship and own the sport bike market.

[Schneegz]

when you go to ride you need to start a bike, not a companies bank account.  I have no interest in hanging at dealers service shops.

Of course you don't; no one does.  But eventually any bike, no matter how well made, needs mechanical support.  And when that happens the bike's owner needs the manufacturer to at least exist.  Given the intermittent existence of manufacturers like, say, MV Agusta and Benelli, I'd say a company's bank account is an excellent place to start.

[Kootenanny]

Buell could be fixed but it would take all new management, maybe that is where MV can help.

Uh...as I understand it, the one thing H-D was gonna change at MV was the management.  They make great bikes, but they need some help on the business end...

Buell, on the other hand, is a profitable company.  I get it that you're pissed that they didn't make the bike you wanted, but I'd put my money on Buell rather than MV to survive as a motorcycle company.

[DaleFranks]

Erik said it himself years ago, that he wouldn't *want*  a LC engine in his bikes; that the Sportster  engine was best suited for his bikes/design phiosophy. Was he just blowing smoke because that's all he had at that time?  

*shrug*

I dunno.

Here's what I do know: As soon as Jim Ziemer gave him the go-ahead, he went straight to BRP and picked up one from Rotax.  And now that it's been successful with Danny Eslick riding it, it's turned into the bike Erik always wanted to make.

Eric himself indicates that, too:

The idea of a water cooled superbike is something I’ve had for a pretty long time, we took a couple of runs at it before but things weren’t quite ready.

And the 1125R wasn't the first run he took at building a water-cooled engine.  Buell actually started the Revolution engine project that eventually ended up in the V-Rod.  As Erik himself explains:

The second time we had taken a run at a water cooled superbike it was actually going to be using the Revolution engine, it was in the mid ‘90s we started that project, which wound up being the V-Rod engine and what happened that time was the specifications we needed and the specifications Harley needed just couldn’t gel well enough and the Harley one took precedence but the specifications of what we needed were just too different...

We actually started that project.

So, the 1125R is, according to Erik, his third attempt at getting a water-cooled bike in the stable.  His second attempt, which became the Revolution engine, was a project he started about 14 years ago.  Erik, again:

When we initiated the project with the Revolution engine but we decided we weren’t ready, it wasn’t working out and Harley needed one so we put it on the shelf for a while but we were a couple years into the project and I remember always reading people say “Buell will never do anything but an air cooled” and we sit back and … (laughs)

Was he just blowing smoke because that's all he had at that time?

Well, I don't have any glimpses into his inner life, but clearly, he's been working towards a water-cooled bike for a loooong time.

[Brad1445]

and all he did was have to pick up the phone, nobody makes a better engine than Rotax

Maybe he should have googled it

[sprint EX]

Well as a happy Uly owner I think they got it right the first time. But then I also have owned  bunch of Guzzi's.

[st ryder]

*shrug*

I dunno.

Here's what I do know: As soon as Jim Ziemer gave him the go-ahead, he went straight to BRP and picked up one from Rotax.  And now that it's been successful with Danny Eslick riding it, it's turned into the bike Erik always wanted to make.

Eric himself indicates that, too:

The idea of a water cooled superbike is something I’ve had for a pretty long time, we took a couple of runs at it before but things weren’t quite ready.

And the 1125R wasn't the first run he took at building a water-cooled engine.  Buell actually started the Revolution engine project that eventually ended up in the V-Rod.  As Erik himself explains:

The second time we had taken a run at a water cooled superbike it was actually going to be using the Revolution engine, it was in the mid ‘90s we started that project, which wound up being the V-Rod engine and what happened that time was the specifications we needed and the specifications Harley needed just couldn’t gel well enough and the Harley one took precedence but the specifications of what we needed were just too different...

We actually started that project.

So, the 1125R is, according to Erik, his third attempt at getting a water-cooled bike in the stable.  His second attempt, which became the Revolution engine, was a project he started about 14 years ago.  Erik, again:

When we initiated the project with the Revolution engine but we decided we weren’t ready, it wasn’t working out and Harley needed one so we put it on the shelf for a while but we were a couple years into the project and I remember always reading people say “Buell will never do anything but an air cooled” and we sit back and … (laughs)



Well, I don't have any glimpses into his inner life, but clearly, he's been working towards a water-cooled bike for a loooong time.

I remember a magazine article from (more than) a few years ago where he clearly stated the air cooled 1200 cc mill he was using was the engine he *preferred* when he was asked outright about water cooled engines, as in why doesn't Buell have one? He stated they are lighter and served his "mass centralisation" philosphy better than liquid cooled enines. But then again, that's all he had at the time: The law of the instrument. I'm sure there's at least one a Buellista out there who will remember or even post the article I mention.  

[Brad1445]

Well as a happy Uly owner I think they got it right the first time. But then I also have owned  bunch of Guzzi's.

I love the Ulysses, put 18k on a 2006.  One of the best/funnest bikes I have ever owned.

[bomber]

I remember a magazine article from (more than) a few years ago where he clearly stated the air cooled 1200 cc mill he was using was the engine he *preferred* when he was asked outright about water cooled engines, as in why doesn't Buell have one? He stated they are lighter and served his "mass centralisation" philosphy better than liquid cooled enines. But then again, that's all he had at the time: The law of the insrtument. I'm sure there's at least one a Buellista out there who will remember or even post the article I mention.  

Yessir, I do -- I heard it often and in person.

But, along with being an engineer, he's also a business person and pretty darned good marketing guy -- he's pretty good a saying what he thinks needs saying.

As I would be, if I represented a similar venture.