Practicing emergency braking?

[F_susp]

I'm wondering if any of you have any clever techniques for practicing emergency braking.  Basically, I'm concerned that if I'm practicing near lockup on the front wheel, it seems to me there is a good chance of going down.  While I'd rather fall down in a parking lot than in traffic, it limits my willingness to practice braking.  Am I missing something, or do I just have to hope I'm already skilled enough (or lucky enough) to not fall?

BTW, I've been riding for a couple of years now so I'm not a total newbie, but I'm not nearly as good as I would like to be, especially at skills that don't come up much in normal riding.

Thanks for any suggestions,

-Robert-

[Cpl Punishment]

Grief, I replie at length and lost it. My reply that is.
 
In summary I said:
Keep your bike's tyres and brakes well fettled
Always ride within your limits
On dry roads, with noone about, a full emergency stop consists of a handful of hard front braking (in a straight line), followed by the back brake. Don't bother with gears. You'll stop quik.
 
Light braking in the dry-a couple of fingers will do.
 
Wet/ frost/ leaves/ snow-your back brake is your best friend. Don't ignore your gears-but you must not use these in emergencies. Try 50/50 front/ back, or if really wet -you should already be in a lower gear-back, then front.
 
Putting your feet out always helps confidence! even better, do an off road course.
 
Best wishes, General Sir Ron Pig.

[kevin_stevens]

I'm wondering if any of you have any clever techniques for practicing emergency braking.  Basically, I'm concerned that if I'm practicing near lockup on the front wheel, it seems to me there is a good chance of going down.  While I'd rather fall down in a parking lot than in traffic, it limits my willingness to practice braking.  Am I missing something, or do I just have to hope I'm already skilled enough (or lucky enough) to not fall?

BTW, I've been riding for a couple of years now so I'm not a total newbie, but I'm not nearly as good as I would like to be, especially at skills that don't come up much in normal riding.

Thanks for any suggestions,

-Robert-

With all the ABS threads running (again), let me just say that you've identified *THE* premier value of ABS on a motorcycle, IMHO -- you can practice threshold braking on a regular basis without worrying about locking the front wheel.

Apart from ABS, you're exactly correct.  Whether in a parking lot, on the street, or on a track, you get to guess how close to impending lockup you are, and try to approach that point as rapidly as possible without ever going over.  I suggest moderate (30-40mph) speeds rather than slow (<20mph) because the wheel is more difficult to lock at higher speeds and you get  a slightly better chance of recovery if you let off quickly enough.  That's true at higher speeds, too, but it's not worth the risk of greater injury.

KeS

[cyeager]

Gradually add more braking force untill you start to lose traction. Despite what some people may tell you, you can dont instantly crash by locking the front wheel, unless you are going *way* too fast. Since you are going slowly and gradually adding more brake you wont be going too fast to recover. This is the only way you will find out how much brake you can use. It is certainly possible to crash while doing this, but it can very well save your life down the road. This is why you should start off on a bike that is cheap and ugly to begin with.
 
Then again, I am from the school of thought that you pretty much have to crash a bike at some point in order to learn how to ride. So maybe you shouldnt listen to me.

[cworley5150]

Grief, I replie at length and lost it. My reply that is.
 
In summary I said:
Keep your bike's tyres and brakes well fettled
Always ride within your limits
On dry roads, with noone about, a full emergency stop consists of a handful of hard front braking (in a straight line), followed by the back brake. Don't bother with gears. You'll stop quik.
 
Light braking in the dry-a couple of fingers will do.
 
Wet/ frost/ leaves/ snow-your back brake is your best friend. Don't ignore your gears-but you must not use these in emergencies. Try 50/50 front/ back, or if really wet -you should already be in a lower gear-back, then front.
 
Putting your feet out always helps confidence! even better, do an off road course.
 
Best wishes, General Sir Ron Pig.

Pretty good advice here.  Not sure I totally agree with the "putting the feet out" part, but doing an off road course will open your eyes to riding on less than perfect surfaces.  
 
Start in parking lots at slower speeds and practice threshold braking.  Gradually increase your spreeds until your up to and comfortable with speeds of around 60-70 mph or even higher if you make a habit of riding at a faster pace.  
 
If you feel the front start to lock up, back off the brake lever a little and let the wheel regain grip.  At least you will know for your particular bike when the front wheel starts to lock up.  
 
Again, this all applies to braking in a straight line.  
 
Or, get a bike with ABS and yank those binders until your knuckles are white!      

[jschmidt]

My suggestion is that you pick the same spot and speed for repititions and try to reduce your brake distance by one foot each time. This teaches both braking limits and traction detection.
 
Max breaking is one of the few bike skills you can't learn simply by riding. You have to practice.

[MDHCO]

Start slow and push the envelope.  You'll be surprised how much braking force you can generate before the front wheel locks.

[bikerfish1100]

take an ERC course. practicing with feedback from someone trained to observe your actions (and results) will help immeasurably.
keep your eyes up and your feet on the pegs- you give up balance when you look down, and some degree of control with your feet flopping in the breeze. not to mention the loss of any rear brake action.

[kevin_stevens]

ERC?!  No offense, but a handful of "quick stops" from 20mph at ERC didn't do a damned thing for me in practicing threshold braking at road speeds.  Maybe if you're starting from scratch and fuzzy on the technique...

ERC for braking practice?  *Really*?

KeS

[MDHCO]

Putting your feet down for practice?  It may have worked for Fred Flintstone, but one foot needs to be on the rear brake, the other down shifting. You just may need to get out of someone's way.

[Noddy]

I started doing this in the wet, on a cold road.  Don't ask how I found out, but after my heartrate came down I practiced on that road for a while, the wet meant that I didn't need too much speed before inducing lock-up.
 
If the bike was upright and my weight centered, it was no problem to lock the front and let it go again.
 
I suggest the wet again, because I keep finding that I really need my brakes in the wet, fog, while someone pulls in front of me.  Knowing how hard to break in the wet is really helpful.  It teaches you humility and how to keep your space.

[cbsnbiker]

It depends on one's level of experience. I've helped thousands of riders improve their braking in MSF courses. I've also had Reg Pridmore and his people help me with my riding skills in their courses.
 
We all can learn new stuff. The ERC is one good place to do so for many people. For others, there are other options out there.
 
Then again, some people don't think they need any help with their riding skills.
 
 

ERC?! No offense, but a handful of "quick stops" from 20mph at ERC didn't do a damned thing for me in practicing threshold braking at road speeds. Maybe if you're starting from scratch and fuzzy on the technique...
 
ERC for braking practice? *Really*?
 
KeS

[Yankee Dog]

.........Despite what some people may tell you, you can dont instantly crash by locking the front wheel, unless you are going *way* too fast. .................

 
umm, I dont think this is quite true.  It can only take the blink of an eye to go down after your front wheel locks.  And you dont have to be going fast.  I got into a panic stop situation a couple of years ago.  I got on the brakes hard.  I remember hearing the front brake squeal.  Thinking, uh oh, that cant be good.  And then picking myself up off the ground.  
 
I wasnt going fast.  Less than 30mph for sure.  Much less by the time I lost it.  In this situation I want going to let up because I was stareing at a car door, but even if I had been just practicing there would not have been much time to react between the time the front wheel started making noise and I started bouncing.  
 
Maybe more emergency braking practice would have helped.  But how many people take such practice all the way to locking the front brake?  It can be mightly expensive to drop your bike even at slow speed.  
 
That is why I have a bike with ABS now.  
 
yankee Dog

[Cpl Punishment]

I'd agree with that. I've fallen off more times at low speeds when the front went than at high. And low speed crashes can hurt.

[speedygeezer]

This method was taught to me by a former racer and long-time instructor.
 
Find a deserted stretch of straight, decent asphalt. Bring along two markers that are readily visible at speed from a distance. Place the 1st marker on the shoulder of the road and then approach it at 30 mph. Using your fore-finger and middle finger on the front brake and simultaneously using the rear brake also, stop as quickly as you think you can and then place the second marker at your stopping point. Proceed away from that marker, turn around and approach it again at 30 mph and as soon as you reach it, stop before you reach the 1st marker. Move the 1st marker to your new stopping point. Keep repeating this exercise with both markers until you can no longer decrease your stopping distance. Aim for consistency when you begin braking in relation to the markers. Concentrate on how much force you are using on the brake lever. Do not grab the lever with maximum force as soon as you exert pressure. This encourages wheel lockup. Rather, gradually and quickly increase pressure as you continue slowing down. This takes practice. It is easier to train two fingers than it is to train three or four. Repeat this exercise at 60 mph. If you commonly travel 75 mph or 100 mph or whatever, practice this exercise from those speeds as well. Only repeated practice will train your brain to learn how much force is required to stop your mc in the shortest distance. This is called your maximum comfortable braking force. I repeat - "your" maximum comfortable braking force. Not mine, and not anyone else's. Yours.
 
Check your mirrors every time before you begin braking during this exercise.
 
Be aware of the possibility of the rear wheel rising off the ground during these exercises. This takes extreme front braking pressure which occurs just before wheel lockup, and some bikes are more susceptible to it than others. Normally, tho, one has to know how to do a "stoppie" and be trying to do a stoppie in order for this to happen, so it isn't likley to happen. But, it COULD happen, thus the admonishment.
 
If the front tire is not skidding, you can safely apply more brake pressure.
 
If you like, practice locking up the tires on gravel at 10 mph, just to find out what it feels like. Naturally, it will feel differently on asphalt, but it will provide you with the sensation of skidding the tires.
 
Practice emergency braking every time you ride - this keeps those fingers in shape, and in case of a real emergency, your reactions will be instinctive. That is, you won't have to think about how hard to squeeze that lever - your fingers will already know.
 
In potentially hazardous situations - blind corners, intersections, leaving a stop sign, left-turners in front of you, etc., always cover the front brake lever with those same two fingers. At 60 mph (or 88 feet/sec.) it takes 1.5 sec. before you can initiate braking if your fingers are wrapped around the hand grip. That's 132 feet BEFORE you start braking in case of an emergency. At 30 mph, that converts to 66 feet. Those distances may not seem like much, but they are a definite advantage when you are trying to avoid a hazard. By covering the brake lever, you can initiate braking as soon as you recognize the hazard. This is a good habit to learn.

[F_susp]

Wow, a whole bunch of useful responses.  Thanks, all of you!

I think I'm going to go find a parking lot to play in, and put some of these suggestions to use.  I'll let you all know if I end up scraping up the sides of the bike .  

-Robert-

[Gaolee]

Another way to practice and push your threshhold in a relatively controlled environment is doing a track day.  The downside is that you might get hopelessly hooked and spend all your money on trackday fees, tires, modifications and repairs to the bike, a dedicated track bike...  But, you do get to practice hard braking along with hard cornering over and over and over again, and practice is what lets you feel the limits without exceeding them.

[cyeager]

umm, I dont think this is quite true. It can only take the blink of an eye to go down after your front wheel locks. And you dont have to be going fast. I got into a panic stop situation a couple of years ago. I got on the brakes hard. I remember hearing the front brake squeal. Thinking, uh oh, that cant be good. And then picking myself up off the ground.

You use improper braking technique on the street and it results in a crash so people shouldnt try to learn proper braking? Maybe if you practiced you would have learned how not to crash in that situation, which is exactly what the OP is trying to accomplish. Recovering from a locked front brake used to be a part of motorcycle training before someone decided that it was too hard and unfair for people who shouldnt be riding.

[bikerfish1100]

Recovering from a locked front brake used to be a part of motorcycle training before someone decided that it was too hard and unfair for people who shouldnt be riding.

really? when was recovery from an intentional front wheel lock up taught as part of beginner rider training, and who did it? certainly wasn't done by MSF, and they've pretty much been the leaders and dominant program in the rider training community.

[UHOH]

Wow, a whole bunch of useful responses.  Thanks, all of you!      I think I'm going to go find a parking lot to play in, and put some of these suggestions to use.  

in Pridmore's Book "Smooth Riding" he suggests just what you're about to try.   he observes that as you get to the tire adhesion limit in a progressive abrupt stop you will hear your front tire 'howl.'   maybe it's the rubber getting torn off by the pavement surface?   potentially tire specific?  but i've heard it and still had traction,  was probably close...

so when you're testing leave out the earplugs.

have fun becoming a better rider, we all need to...

[cyeager]

really? when was recovery from an intentional front wheel lock up taught as part of beginner rider training, and who did it? certainly wasn't done by MSF, and they've pretty much been the leaders and dominant program in the rider training community.

The MSF was founded in 1973, and it wasnt the nationwide standard for testing in all 50 states till well after that. Believe it or not people were riding long before that, and they even ride motorcycles in countries that dont have the MSF. I know, its amazing isnt it. Additionally, the MSF curriculem has changed drastically since it was initially founded (its gotten a lot easier). Remember that this is the organization that trains new riders specifically *not* to cover their brakes when riding. They are not the gold standard of training, they are just the most common source of it. Saying that the MSF doesnt teach something so it must not be a part of any training is like saying that McDonalds doesnt put lettuce on burgers, so burgers dont have lettuce on them.
 
Progressively braking untill loss of front wheel traction was taught to me in my non-MSF training, and I believe that it is still taught as a part of European rider training (i know several European trained riders that had to do it). You arent taught to brake like that on the street (i.e you dont deliberatly lock your brakes), but it is a lesson in what to do if it happens and how much braking force you have available. If you havent ever locked up a front wheel how do you know how much brake you can really use? Do you wait for a car to pull out in front of you to learn this?

[cbsnbiker]

really? when was recovery from an intentional front wheel lock up taught as part of beginner rider training, and who did it? certainly wasn't done by MSF, and they've pretty much been the leaders and dominant program in the rider training community.

You use improper braking technique on the street and it results in a crash so people shouldnt try to learn proper braking? Maybe if you practiced you would have learned how not to crash in that situation, which is exactly what the OP is trying to accomplish. Recovering from a locked front brake used to be a part of motorcycle training before someone decided that it was too hard and unfair for people who shouldnt be riding.

I'd like to expound on both of these quotes a bit.
 
In both the current MSF curriculum (the BRC) and the previous offering (the MRC:RSS), it was never part of the curriculum to teach students to lock their front brakes intentionally. Students did (RSS) and do (BRC) learn in the classroom what to do if they experience(d) a locked front brake, but we do not teach students to perform incorrect techniques.(1)
 
In a practical sense, many students learn on the range how to handle a locked front brake, because locking the front brake is often part of the learning process during quick braking exercises. It is less common than a locked rear brake, but it does happen.
 
I do not know enough about previous curriculum products (pre-1986 or so) to comment on them. Ditto non-MSF curricula.
 
Disclaimer: I am not a spokesman for the MSF, I do not represent the MSF in any official capacity, blah, blah, etc.
 
-----
 
(1) This is a bit of a welcome change from the RSS, which did, in fact, teach students an incorrect technique: students spent an exercise learning how to lock a rear brake, then were verbally instructed not to do so thereafter.

[speedygeezer]

The MSF, bless their hearts, finally decided that it was ok to use the front brake while in a corner. Now, THAT'S progress! What next?

[plumber]

I went back and took the MSF BRC when I started riding again. I had been back on the bike for a few months before I took the class. I wasn't Rossi but I had some experience.
 
The instructor wasn't happy until I tucked the front in the braking drill. I thought I was braking pretty hard but he wanted more. I finally tucked the front on the last practice test. The Yumbo 150 weighed about 150 so my left leg went out and kept the bike up. He still bitched that the reason I tucked was I dropped my eyes.....
 
My MSF BRC instructor wanted me to find the limit.

[cbsnbiker]

The MSF, bless their hearts, finally decided that it was ok to use the front brake while in a corner. Now, THAT'S progress! What next?

What do you mean?

[jschmidt]

really? when was recovery from an intentional front wheel lock up taught as part of beginner rider training, and who did it? certainly wasn't done by MSF, and they've pretty much been the leaders and dominant program in the rider training community.

It's absolutely discussed in every type of MSF course. It's not practiced, for obvious reasons. The toll on bikes would exceed the financial resources of any program.

[bikerfish1100]

It's absolutely discussed in every type of MSF course. It's not practiced, for obvious reasons. The toll on bikes would exceed the financial resources of any program.

"discussed" is nothing like "practiced", which is what was stated by cyeager.
 

The MSF, bless their hearts, finally decided that it was ok to use the front brake while in a corner. Now, THAT'S progress! What next?

not sure what speedygeezer is getting at here. yes, MSF has taught how to do a quick stop in a corner (basically, make it a straight line stop as soon as possible), but "using" the brakes in a corner? generally best left to more advanced riders. remember, this IS "Beginner's Garage" after all.
 
and the MSF BEGINNER course is just that; a "beginner course". granted, many of us here have an ungodly amount of accumulated knowledge and experience, which would be very valuable to a new rider to get, instantaneoulsy. but it doesn't work like that. and there is a real danger in trying to stuff 10 lbs of shit into a beginner's 5lb head.

[cyeager]

and the MSF BEGINNER course is just that; a "beginner course". granted, many of us here have an ungodly amount of accumulated knowledge and experience, which would be very valuable to a new rider to get, instantaneoulsy. but it doesn't work like that. and there is a real danger in trying to stuff 10 lbs of shit into a beginner's 5lb head.

This thread was started by a person with 2 years of riding experience. We are trying to address that person's issues. Do you think that *maybe* they are ready to move beyond the basic MSF curriculem now?

[cbsnbiker]

This thread was started by a person with 2 years of riding experience. We are trying to address that person's issues. Do you think that *maybe* they are ready to move beyond the basic MSF curriculem now?

I can't know for sure without seeing that person ride.

[MisterEd]

OK, so getting back to the orginal question (and skillfully skirting the whole "MSF debate") let me tell you how I teach my students to do their front braking and how I get them to "get" the whole progressive squeeze thing...

What I find is that a lot of people understand the discussion about increasing traction on the front wheel as you apply more brake in an intellectual sense, but they almost always fail to apply it on the range (or street, for that matter).  What I see time after time is a student coming down the range in a braking exercise and simply applying a fixed amount of front brake.  Now, that fixed amount may increase each time as they practice and their stopping distance comes down somewhat, but they never really NAIL it until they understand that whole magical progessive squeeze thing.

So, here's what I tell them when I see this happening.  It seems to work.  Instead of simply pulling the brake lever to a point and waiting for the bike to stop, keep squeezing, smoothly, UNTIL the bike stops.  It may sound like a small matter of semantics, but it's not.  The rider who simply pulls the lever in "X" distance and stops isn't using all the available braking force in that front brake.  The students are always amazed when they actually start doing a smooth, progressive squeeze that their stopping distances drop dramatically!

As for dropping the bike because of a front wheel lockup?  Don't worry too much about it.  If you practice (and I recommend regular quick stop practice for EVERY rider about once a month) at around 15-20 MPH while you're getting to know your bike's front brake, you should be fine.  Crashes from front wheel lockup occur, in my experience, from one of two things - coming in way too fast which encourages too much front brake pressure; or simply hammering the front brake with a rapid, quick grab rather than a smooth progressive squeeze.

But whatever you do, actually go out there and DO the quick stop practice drills as often as you can - I personally do them a couple times a month just to stay sharp.  Knowing how to do a good quick stop on your bike will save your life some day.

[Mr Sunshine]

Yeah I race.

[Mr Sunshine]

Instead of simply pulling the brake lever to a point and waiting for the bike to stop, keep squeezing, smoothly, UNTIL the bike stops.[/B] It may sound like a small matter of semantics, but it's not. The rider who simply pulls the lever in "X" distance and stops isn't using all the available braking force in that front brake. The students are always amazed when they actually start doing a smooth, progressive squeeze that their stopping distances drop dramatically!

I like the idea for trying them to get something right like braking harder but...once you have done that initial brake squeeze and your front suspension is now getting the weight of the bike on it....you should be braking the hardest you can at that point and then gradually releasing the brake as you slow down.
 
Its VERY difficult to lock the brake at 140mph.  It's much easier to do it at 20mph.

[Mr Sunshine]

Gradually add more braking force untill you start to lose traction. Despite what some people may tell you, you can dont instantly crash by locking the front wheel, unless you are going *way* too fast. Since you are going slowly and gradually adding more brake you wont be going too fast to recover. This is the only way you will find out how much brake you can use. It is certainly possible to crash while doing this, but it can very well save your life down the road. This is why you should start off on a bike that is cheap and ugly to begin with.
 
Then again, I am from the school of thought that you pretty much have to crash a bike at some point in order to learn how to ride. So maybe you shouldnt listen to me.

 
Really?  This was me locking my front brake at 60mph.
 
http://www.chrisburgess.com/trackdays/5.1.2005/PICT0066.JPG
 
It took all of half a second between the time I had put the brake on to the time I was screwed.  To be fair though I wasn't totally straight up and down at the time.

[meanstrk]

I teach advanced techniques to Marines. Most of those are the same as taught in the Code School and the main point I try to make when doing braking drills is to stay loose on the bars. Use your knees to grip the tank and support your weight and stay loose with your arms. If you have a death grip on the bars, then the moment the brakes lock up you are more likely to force the bars right or left, resulting in more carnage than desired. If, on the other hand, you stay loose, you would be very suprised how far you can slide a front tire while locked up in a straight line. Practicing braking can help in a multitude of ways...... It gives you an idea of what the bike is capable of and what YOU are capable of in a panic situation. It gives you an idea of how to control the front in a lock up. It also gives you an edge on the track if you know how fast you can slow down!

[MisterEd]

I like the idea for trying them to get something right like braking harder but...once you have done that initial brake squeeze and your front suspension is now getting the weight of the bike on it....you should be braking the hardest you can at that point and then gradually releasing the brake as you slow down.

Oh, no, no, no - I have to most wholeheartedly disacgree with you on that.  The LAST thing I want to be doing is letting up on the brake if I'm in a quick stop (emergency) situation.  Smooth, progressive squeeze, continuously squeezing all the way until the bike stops.  Bear in mind we're talking about the kind of stop where I need to bring that bike to a halt NOW because Bob in the Buick has just decided to pull out in front of me.

[DredheadV2.0]

Once I got some confidence in what modern tires and dual six-pot calipers could do in a braking situation (I'd ridden nothing but ancient UJMs until I got a modern one) I started practicing quick stops on my morning commute.  Low-traffic area, straight wide boulevard.  I did much what Ed was describing, only with the Stop line as my goal.  I'd spend the entire morning getting up to progressively higher speeds (nothing outlandish, just normal city driving) and start braking progressively later, coming to a stop at the line each time.

No, I don't recommend it, unsafe to do on public streets, there's others to be worried about, what about an oil slick, etc.  Don't do what I did, coz that would be stupid.  But I lived in an area of the city then where people didn't drive around with oil leaks, and no spilt diesel because truck traffic was nonexistent.  Also no construction gravel or steel plates in the road.

So the upshot is, I got quite good at quick stops, and it became so reflexive for me when the time HAD come to stop quickly or get it, I was able to several times.

[def38]

Emergency stops using maximum front brake? Let ABS keep you safe......squeeze as hard as you want........no front lockup.
 
BMW GS rider (ABS equipped, of course).

[jsanford]

This method was taught to me by a former racer and long-time instructor...

I vote to make this sticky.

The idea of trying this from 60mph, on a straight road, practicing on my own makes me nervous, so I don't do it--and each time I ride that fast I'm acutely aware that I haven't done that practice.

I read somewhere that if you're comfortable doing something at a certain speed, try doing it from 5mph faster until that's comfortable, and bump it up again.  I guess that's what I'll do, practicing the above-truncated technique.

[MOVFR]

Unless you were born with the proverbial silver spoon in your mouth I humbly suggest that you avoid braking entirely as it is really hard on tires and brake pads.
 
Just tryin' to help is all ...

[Windblown]

the main point I try to make when doing braking drills is to stay loose on the bars. Use your knees to grip the tank and support your weight and stay loose with your arms.

+10  I was about to respond that squeezing the tank and keeping pressure off the bars is important. But you said it better than I would have.
 
Don't skip the downshifting practice during threshold braking!
 
Real life Example: Tooling down the interstate at about 80mph in left lane. Truck in front has a couch that suddenly airlifts out of the bed and hits the road in front of me. I hit the brakes hard and start tapping the shifter as I look for an escape.  Traffic in right lane, gravel on the left, couch sideways in front of me.  A hole opens up in traffic in right lane but I'm now doing 30 MPH less than the traffic in that lane. But the hole is there if I can be quick about it and the couch is getting damn close.  Two quick countersteering inputs and a twist of the wrist and I squirt into the right lane and slip past the couch and continue on my way.
 
Just another day.
 
But escaping the trap required threshold braking, downshifting, hard countersteering, and spatial awareness, all at the same time. I'd love to say it was natural talent, but I'd be lying. It was the result of lots of practice. (Thank you MSF, Trackday coaching, & many other riders that I've shared the road with)

[prshguy]

Well, I'd be interested to hear what Ed or other experienced instructors have to say about downshifting while making a panic stop.  Seems to me you would be disturbing the rear wheels grip and adding to the likelyhood of losing traction if you are already at maximum braking and stopping in the shortest possible distance is your goal.  Now if you thought you would need to accelerate at some point in this emergency and simply scrubbing off speed to a certain distance was the goal, then I could see downshifting but otherwise seems like you're best letting the brakes do their thing.

Not to change the subject but what is the correlation between front and rear braking with regards to keeping the rear wheel on the ground.  Is it best to brake to the point that the rear wheel lifts (in which case all the braking is being done by the front wheel), or only enough front so that both stay on the ground?

[cbsnbiker]

Well, I'd be interested to hear what Ed or other experienced instructors have to say about downshifting while making a panic stop.  Seems to me you would be disturbing the rear wheels grip and adding to the likelyhood of losing traction if you are already at maximum braking and stopping in the shortest possible distance is your goal.  Now if you thought you would need to accelerate at some point in this emergency and simply scrubbing off speed to a certain distance was the goal, then I could see downshifting but otherwise seems like you're best letting the brakes do their thing.

First off, I don't teach my students to panic.  

But seriously, I'm confused by your question. How do you envision downshifting while braking disturbing your braking? I'll have a better idea of how to answer once I have a better idea of what your concern is.

I do feel that it is important to downshift while braking. Envision this scenario. Something happens in front of you to cause you to have to stop quickly, using your maximum braking skills (and not panicking, I hope). You come to a stop, look in the rear view mirror, and realize that you're about to be rear-ended. Would you rather get out of the way, or start downshifting? Or drop the bike and run?  

[prshguy]

Well, here's my thought process:  You've got a finite amount of traction available at the rear wheel.  If you're using the rear brake/tire to it's maximum amount of traction, and then add in the additional braking force of the motor via the downshift, won't this tend to be the "final straw" that causes the tire to exceed the available traction?  

[Thor]

Well, I'd be interested to hear what Ed or other experienced instructors have to say about downshifting while making a panic stop.  Seems to me you would be disturbing the rear wheels grip and adding to the likelyhood of losing traction if you are already at maximum braking and stopping in the shortest possible distance is your goal.  Now if you thought you would need to accelerate at some point in this emergency and simply scrubbing off speed to a certain distance was the goal, then I could see downshifting but otherwise seems like you're best letting the brakes do their thing.

Not to change the subject but what is the correlation between front and rear braking with regards to keeping the rear wheel on the ground.  Is it best to brake to the point that the rear wheel lifts (in which case all the braking is being done by the front wheel), or only enough front so that both stay on the ground?

In a true emergency stop, there isn't time to be banging through the gears, letting out the clutch, and banging through the gears, and letting out the clutch...

Pull in the clutch and bang down the gears as you slow.

I have seen many, many riders dump their bikes during an emergency stop (some on the race track) because they forgot to pull in the clutch.  

I cover the clutch just as often as I cover the brakes.

Your brakes will always be many times more effective at slowing the motorcycle than your engine.

[FlowBee]

 ...  Envision this scenario. Something happens in front of you to cause you to have to stop quickly, using your maximum braking skills (and not panicking, I hope). You come to a stop, look in the rear view mirror, and realize that you're about to be rear-ended. Would you rather get out of the way, or start downshifting? Or drop the bike and run?  

Oh, and THEN a pack of wolverines attacks from the right, just as a piano falls from a building to their left.    

In a true emergency stop I'd rather they just focus on not hitting anything.  Since every bit of additional attention diverted from downshifting and focused on threshold braking is going to give them a much better chance of not plowing into anything, they should focus completely on reducing their speed.  If they are so skilled as to be able to meter their attention between threshold braking and downshifting, they probably don't need our advice.  If they got stopped and can even focus their eyes without pissing themselves, they can THEN think about getting the hell out of there.

[bikerfish1100]

and i would still recommend that during an emergency stop a rider pulls in the clutch, bangs down thru the gears without releasing the clutch (no engine braking), and utilizes their best braking skills to remove as much speed as possible. a swerve might be appropriate once most speed is shed, but if you're still sitting in a too tall gear, now you're created a new problem for yourself.

prshguy- just use the brakes to come to a stop- they're much more powerful than what engine braking can add, and are easier to modulate and control. my belief is that if you can keep the rear wheel in contact with the ground, and engage both the front & rear brakes to maximum effect, you will stop shorter, and with more control, than if the rear wheel is in the air.

[chornbe]

I'm wondering if any of you have any clever techniques for practicing emergency braking.

I don't really buy into the idea of "practicing emergency braking". Rather, I believe in braking properly every time, and your body and mind will be training to do it properly in the case of emergency.

Yes, you should fully understand your and your bike's limits, but in the end, nothing really helps more than familiarity and correct technique.

$.02

[county]

If you gonna practice so you'll do it in an emergency then practice grabbing everything and putting yo foot down on everything...but the focus needs to be on that front brake primarily, rear break second (Unless you lock it up) and then you can do anything else you got the time and inclination for

[bikerfish1100]

I don't really buy into the idea of "practicing emergency braking". Rather, I believe in braking properly every time, and your body and mind will be training to do it properly in the case of emergency.

Yes, you should fully understand your and your bike's limits, but in the end, nothing really helps more than familiarity and correct technique.

$.02

chris- are you saying that every time you come to a complete stop that you apply your brakes to the threshold limits just short of lock-up? or is it that you never do? emergency braking is both quantitatively & qualitatively different from just using correct technique. the intensity of a powerful full-on stop is not what most of us generally experience- and it does take some acclimation before one is comfortable with it.

[prshguy]

"the intensity of a powerful full-on stop is not what most of us generally experience- and it does take some acclimation before one is comfortable with it."

 

I think knowing how your vehicle, bike or car, responds in an emergency situation is a critical element of knowledge and experience that every rider and driver needs to be familiar with. Taking the time, in a non-threatening/safe environment, to practice a quick stop, is something I think every rider/driver should do.  It connects those synapses and responses so that when we need the proper response it comes more naturally and is less of a shock when the bike(and rider) pitches forward.

[cbsnbiker]

Well, here's my thought process:  You've got a finite amount of traction available at the rear wheel.  If you're using the rear brake/tire to it's maximum amount of traction, and then add in the additional braking force of the motor via the downshift, won't this tend to be the "final straw" that causes the tire to exceed the available traction?  

Now I understand your point. Thanks.

Squeeze in your clutch and keep it squeezed as you downshift while braking. It's not hard to do.

Others argue that that is too much multitasking. Well, if push comes to shove, and a rider has to make a choice, of course the better choice is to brake and avoid crashing into something, than to downshift and crash because you're not braking. Duh.  

I, however, don't feel that most riders, other than outright beginners, are in that boat.

Now, to be complete, I will point out that there is a school of thought that recommends keeping the engine engaged during maximum braking. I've been told that in Britain, if you squeeze in your clutch during a quick stop during a road test, you will be failed.

My opinion is that, for street riding, it's easier to modulate braking with your brake than with your engine. In addition, ABS doesn't work with engine braking, of course.

[Mr Sunshine]

I've been told that in Britain, if you squeeze in your clutch during a quick stop during a road test, you will be failed.

Straight out of Compton.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/Motoring/LearnerAndNewDrivers/PracticalTest/PracticalTestArticles/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4022723&chk=Uv8KAL

2.5 EMERGENCY STOP An emergency stop is given on every motorcycle test and should be given at a nominated place on the chosen route, but at any time during the test. The candidate should be instructed to pull up preferably where a simple left-hand block can be used. The examiner should then tell them that during the next part of the test theywill be required to stop the machine as in an emergency. They should tell the candidate the route to take and explain that: The signal to stop will be given with the right arm with the examiner standing abouthalf a metre from the kerb in full view as they approach. The signal should be demonstrated. The signal should not be given in a busy road or when danger to other road users is likely to arise. When they receive the signal the candidate should stop as quickly and safely aspossible.

DT1 – January 2006Note: If the candidate asks if they should give an arm signal, the examiner should repeat that the signal will not be given if it appears that danger to other road users is likely to arise and that the candidate should remember that they should stop underfull control. Examiners should take up position well beforehand and signal smartly and distinctly,keeping their arm up for a reasonable time. The signal should be timed so the candidate will stop about 5 metres away from the examiner. This will give an opportunity to judge whether they have used the front brake. Both brakes must be used for the emergency stop; use of either the front or rear brake only should be regarded as reason for failure. Examiners will be aware that this exercise entails the candidate putting themselvesin a position - riding directly towards a pedestrian at speed - which a good rider would not normally do. It is the examiner's responsibility to ensure that the test isconducted safely and to be ready to step back if the candidate fails to stop satisfactorily. If, exceptionally, due to a clear misunderstanding, the candidate fails tobrake at the right time, the exercise should be repeated. If the candidate carries out the exercise without fault except for overshooting the examiner's position because the examiner has misjudged the speed, position or conditions, no fault should be recorded. If the candidate does not approach at a reasonable speed, i.e. about 20 mph (32 kph), the ‘Stop’ signal should not be given. Instead, when it is safe to do so, the examiner should give the normal `pull up' signal, and inform the candidate that theyshould approach at a normal speed. 2.6 PUT THE MACHINE ON AND OFF I

No mention about the clutch not able to be disengaged.

[prshguy]

That's interesting about leaving clutch out and the bike in gear while braking.  I've always pulled in the clutch and used just the brakes, but now that I think about it, when I'm on my dirt bike I almost always use the engine to help with braking and control especially downhill.

[mjrfd99]

My buddy and I would go to a deserted parking lot back in 73 and do panic stops. I believe it helped keep us alive.

[Bodhi]

Practice is good. But IMO you have to do it regularly. It has to be ingrained muscle memory. You don't have time for your upper brain to think it over when crunch time comes. And if you get a new bike, the whole process starts over.

[andmoon]

I am a lazy ass so I didn't read all the posts.


Practice braking while turning...you will need to sooner or later.
I have seen a HUMAN drag a knee and bring the bike to a complete stop in that position.

[Cpl Punishment]

Unless you were born with the proverbial silver spoon in your mouth I humbly suggest that you avoid braking entirely as it is really hard on tires and brake pads.
 
Just tryin' to help is all ...

I think that was my point when advising putting your feet down....

[Thor]

I am a lazy ass so I didn't read all the posts.


Practice braking while turning...you will need to sooner or later.
I have seen a HUMAN drag a knee and bring the bike to a complete stop in that position.

I think that is called crashing.  

For a beginner, or someone not familiar with stopping in a curve, the technique of standing the bike up and braking is the best to practice.

I do strongly believe that you need to practice braking while leaned over for a number of reasons.

1.  We tend to stop with a specific location in mind.  Right in front of us.  Braking in a curve requires you to keep looking through the turn NOT right in front of you.

2.  I've witnessed this a few times, and heard about it a lot.  A rider is entering a turn too hot for their comfort and they get on the brakes as they turn.  They make it about 3/4 of the way through the turn, slow considerably, and then low side.

I believe that they aren't reducing lean angle as quickly as they are stopping and not balancing the bike.  I lean my upper body more (to stand the bike up) when braking in a curve and I literally have to throw my body upright as quickly as I can to keep the bike properly balanced.

I think these riders are counter steering the bike right into the ground.

The easiest way I have found to practice this is to carry some brake into a turn and let off as I increase lean.  (Yes, I know we all have a name for this, but that is another discussion.)

This forces me to keep looking through the turn, and if feels quite odd the first couple of times you do it.

It is an advanced technique, but it save my butt a few years ago.  I was the third rider in a group.  We had been hitting a bunch of 20MPH marked turn that were all blind, but predictable.  I decided at the next one I was going to go faster than I had been, and just as I turned I saw a brake light in front of me.

I had no idea why the other two bikes were stopping and I was leaned way over.  I had to brake hard in the turn - the other lane was obscured by a blind crest.

I stopped next to my friends and gave them the, "What the hell?" look.  As I looked at the road I noticed a truck on one side of the road and a tractor on the other side with a tan (same color as the pavement) tow strap stretched across the road.

The other two riders also stopped while leaned over (an MSF instructor and a road racer.)  It would have been ugly if we hadn't known how to stop while leaned over.

(I can tell you that you have to be careful on group rides with this technique.  I've almost got ass packed twice slowing while leaned over.  Even with a three or four second follow distance, some people simply are unable to slow their bike in a curve.  But if someone is following too close, braking in a curve really throws their rhythm off and causes them to back off.)

[Nitro]

Just do it, do it on diff surfaces, do it on curves.do it on diff bikes if you own them,.and do it lots..(but not in traffic eh???)Its called practice and it works pretty good in anything..
I try to do a few every week or so, might just help someday...maybe..

[arkansawyer]

The front end will get a "rubbery" feel to it as you approach the limit of braking.  When you feel that through the bars you are getting everything the front tire has.

I practice braking as hard as I can at least once a month.  I view it as my last line of defense.  I should be able to predict what is going to happen around me.  The last line has saved me several times.