Practicing emergency braking?

[prshguy]

Well, I'd be interested to hear what Ed or other experienced instructors have to say about downshifting while making a panic stop.  Seems to me you would be disturbing the rear wheels grip and adding to the likelyhood of losing traction if you are already at maximum braking and stopping in the shortest possible distance is your goal.  Now if you thought you would need to accelerate at some point in this emergency and simply scrubbing off speed to a certain distance was the goal, then I could see downshifting but otherwise seems like you're best letting the brakes do their thing.

Not to change the subject but what is the correlation between front and rear braking with regards to keeping the rear wheel on the ground.  Is it best to brake to the point that the rear wheel lifts (in which case all the braking is being done by the front wheel), or only enough front so that both stay on the ground?

[cbsnbiker]

Well, I'd be interested to hear what Ed or other experienced instructors have to say about downshifting while making a panic stop.  Seems to me you would be disturbing the rear wheels grip and adding to the likelyhood of losing traction if you are already at maximum braking and stopping in the shortest possible distance is your goal.  Now if you thought you would need to accelerate at some point in this emergency and simply scrubbing off speed to a certain distance was the goal, then I could see downshifting but otherwise seems like you're best letting the brakes do their thing.

First off, I don't teach my students to panic.  

But seriously, I'm confused by your question. How do you envision downshifting while braking disturbing your braking? I'll have a better idea of how to answer once I have a better idea of what your concern is.

I do feel that it is important to downshift while braking. Envision this scenario. Something happens in front of you to cause you to have to stop quickly, using your maximum braking skills (and not panicking, I hope). You come to a stop, look in the rear view mirror, and realize that you're about to be rear-ended. Would you rather get out of the way, or start downshifting? Or drop the bike and run?  

[prshguy]

Well, here's my thought process:  You've got a finite amount of traction available at the rear wheel.  If you're using the rear brake/tire to it's maximum amount of traction, and then add in the additional braking force of the motor via the downshift, won't this tend to be the "final straw" that causes the tire to exceed the available traction?  

[Thor]

Well, I'd be interested to hear what Ed or other experienced instructors have to say about downshifting while making a panic stop.  Seems to me you would be disturbing the rear wheels grip and adding to the likelyhood of losing traction if you are already at maximum braking and stopping in the shortest possible distance is your goal.  Now if you thought you would need to accelerate at some point in this emergency and simply scrubbing off speed to a certain distance was the goal, then I could see downshifting but otherwise seems like you're best letting the brakes do their thing.

Not to change the subject but what is the correlation between front and rear braking with regards to keeping the rear wheel on the ground.  Is it best to brake to the point that the rear wheel lifts (in which case all the braking is being done by the front wheel), or only enough front so that both stay on the ground?

In a true emergency stop, there isn't time to be banging through the gears, letting out the clutch, and banging through the gears, and letting out the clutch...

Pull in the clutch and bang down the gears as you slow.

I have seen many, many riders dump their bikes during an emergency stop (some on the race track) because they forgot to pull in the clutch.  

I cover the clutch just as often as I cover the brakes.

Your brakes will always be many times more effective at slowing the motorcycle than your engine.

[FlowBee]

 ...  Envision this scenario. Something happens in front of you to cause you to have to stop quickly, using your maximum braking skills (and not panicking, I hope). You come to a stop, look in the rear view mirror, and realize that you're about to be rear-ended. Would you rather get out of the way, or start downshifting? Or drop the bike and run?  

Oh, and THEN a pack of wolverines attacks from the right, just as a piano falls from a building to their left.    

In a true emergency stop I'd rather they just focus on not hitting anything.  Since every bit of additional attention diverted from downshifting and focused on threshold braking is going to give them a much better chance of not plowing into anything, they should focus completely on reducing their speed.  If they are so skilled as to be able to meter their attention between threshold braking and downshifting, they probably don't need our advice.  If they got stopped and can even focus their eyes without pissing themselves, they can THEN think about getting the hell out of there.

[bikerfish1100]

and i would still recommend that during an emergency stop a rider pulls in the clutch, bangs down thru the gears without releasing the clutch (no engine braking), and utilizes their best braking skills to remove as much speed as possible. a swerve might be appropriate once most speed is shed, but if you're still sitting in a too tall gear, now you're created a new problem for yourself.

prshguy- just use the brakes to come to a stop- they're much more powerful than what engine braking can add, and are easier to modulate and control. my belief is that if you can keep the rear wheel in contact with the ground, and engage both the front & rear brakes to maximum effect, you will stop shorter, and with more control, than if the rear wheel is in the air.

[chornbe]

I'm wondering if any of you have any clever techniques for practicing emergency braking.

I don't really buy into the idea of "practicing emergency braking". Rather, I believe in braking properly every time, and your body and mind will be training to do it properly in the case of emergency.

Yes, you should fully understand your and your bike's limits, but in the end, nothing really helps more than familiarity and correct technique.

$.02

[county]

If you gonna practice so you'll do it in an emergency then practice grabbing everything and putting yo foot down on everything...but the focus needs to be on that front brake primarily, rear break second (Unless you lock it up) and then you can do anything else you got the time and inclination for

[bikerfish1100]

I don't really buy into the idea of "practicing emergency braking". Rather, I believe in braking properly every time, and your body and mind will be training to do it properly in the case of emergency.

Yes, you should fully understand your and your bike's limits, but in the end, nothing really helps more than familiarity and correct technique.

$.02

chris- are you saying that every time you come to a complete stop that you apply your brakes to the threshold limits just short of lock-up? or is it that you never do? emergency braking is both quantitatively & qualitatively different from just using correct technique. the intensity of a powerful full-on stop is not what most of us generally experience- and it does take some acclimation before one is comfortable with it.

[prshguy]

"the intensity of a powerful full-on stop is not what most of us generally experience- and it does take some acclimation before one is comfortable with it."

 

I think knowing how your vehicle, bike or car, responds in an emergency situation is a critical element of knowledge and experience that every rider and driver needs to be familiar with. Taking the time, in a non-threatening/safe environment, to practice a quick stop, is something I think every rider/driver should do.  It connects those synapses and responses so that when we need the proper response it comes more naturally and is less of a shock when the bike(and rider) pitches forward.

[cbsnbiker]

Well, here's my thought process:  You've got a finite amount of traction available at the rear wheel.  If you're using the rear brake/tire to it's maximum amount of traction, and then add in the additional braking force of the motor via the downshift, won't this tend to be the "final straw" that causes the tire to exceed the available traction?  

Now I understand your point. Thanks.

Squeeze in your clutch and keep it squeezed as you downshift while braking. It's not hard to do.

Others argue that that is too much multitasking. Well, if push comes to shove, and a rider has to make a choice, of course the better choice is to brake and avoid crashing into something, than to downshift and crash because you're not braking. Duh.  

I, however, don't feel that most riders, other than outright beginners, are in that boat.

Now, to be complete, I will point out that there is a school of thought that recommends keeping the engine engaged during maximum braking. I've been told that in Britain, if you squeeze in your clutch during a quick stop during a road test, you will be failed.

My opinion is that, for street riding, it's easier to modulate braking with your brake than with your engine. In addition, ABS doesn't work with engine braking, of course.

[Mr Sunshine]

I've been told that in Britain, if you squeeze in your clutch during a quick stop during a road test, you will be failed.

Straight out of Compton.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/Motoring/LearnerAndNewDrivers/PracticalTest/PracticalTestArticles/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4022723&chk=Uv8KAL

2.5 EMERGENCY STOP An emergency stop is given on every motorcycle test and should be given at a nominated place on the chosen route, but at any time during the test. The candidate should be instructed to pull up preferably where a simple left-hand block can be used. The examiner should then tell them that during the next part of the test theywill be required to stop the machine as in an emergency. They should tell the candidate the route to take and explain that: The signal to stop will be given with the right arm with the examiner standing abouthalf a metre from the kerb in full view as they approach. The signal should be demonstrated. The signal should not be given in a busy road or when danger to other road users is likely to arise. When they receive the signal the candidate should stop as quickly and safely aspossible.

DT1 – January 2006Note: If the candidate asks if they should give an arm signal, the examiner should repeat that the signal will not be given if it appears that danger to other road users is likely to arise and that the candidate should remember that they should stop underfull control. Examiners should take up position well beforehand and signal smartly and distinctly,keeping their arm up for a reasonable time. The signal should be timed so the candidate will stop about 5 metres away from the examiner. This will give an opportunity to judge whether they have used the front brake. Both brakes must be used for the emergency stop; use of either the front or rear brake only should be regarded as reason for failure. Examiners will be aware that this exercise entails the candidate putting themselvesin a position - riding directly towards a pedestrian at speed - which a good rider would not normally do. It is the examiner's responsibility to ensure that the test isconducted safely and to be ready to step back if the candidate fails to stop satisfactorily. If, exceptionally, due to a clear misunderstanding, the candidate fails tobrake at the right time, the exercise should be repeated. If the candidate carries out the exercise without fault except for overshooting the examiner's position because the examiner has misjudged the speed, position or conditions, no fault should be recorded. If the candidate does not approach at a reasonable speed, i.e. about 20 mph (32 kph), the ‘Stop’ signal should not be given. Instead, when it is safe to do so, the examiner should give the normal `pull up' signal, and inform the candidate that theyshould approach at a normal speed. 2.6 PUT THE MACHINE ON AND OFF I

No mention about the clutch not able to be disengaged.

[prshguy]

That's interesting about leaving clutch out and the bike in gear while braking.  I've always pulled in the clutch and used just the brakes, but now that I think about it, when I'm on my dirt bike I almost always use the engine to help with braking and control especially downhill.

[mjrfd99]

My buddy and I would go to a deserted parking lot back in 73 and do panic stops. I believe it helped keep us alive.

[Bodhi]

Practice is good. But IMO you have to do it regularly. It has to be ingrained muscle memory. You don't have time for your upper brain to think it over when crunch time comes. And if you get a new bike, the whole process starts over.

[andmoon]

I am a lazy ass so I didn't read all the posts.


Practice braking while turning...you will need to sooner or later.
I have seen a HUMAN drag a knee and bring the bike to a complete stop in that position.

[Cpl Punishment]

Unless you were born with the proverbial silver spoon in your mouth I humbly suggest that you avoid braking entirely as it is really hard on tires and brake pads.
 
Just tryin' to help is all ...

I think that was my point when advising putting your feet down....

[Thor]

I am a lazy ass so I didn't read all the posts.


Practice braking while turning...you will need to sooner or later.
I have seen a HUMAN drag a knee and bring the bike to a complete stop in that position.

I think that is called crashing.  

For a beginner, or someone not familiar with stopping in a curve, the technique of standing the bike up and braking is the best to practice.

I do strongly believe that you need to practice braking while leaned over for a number of reasons.

1.  We tend to stop with a specific location in mind.  Right in front of us.  Braking in a curve requires you to keep looking through the turn NOT right in front of you.

2.  I've witnessed this a few times, and heard about it a lot.  A rider is entering a turn too hot for their comfort and they get on the brakes as they turn.  They make it about 3/4 of the way through the turn, slow considerably, and then low side.

I believe that they aren't reducing lean angle as quickly as they are stopping and not balancing the bike.  I lean my upper body more (to stand the bike up) when braking in a curve and I literally have to throw my body upright as quickly as I can to keep the bike properly balanced.

I think these riders are counter steering the bike right into the ground.

The easiest way I have found to practice this is to carry some brake into a turn and let off as I increase lean.  (Yes, I know we all have a name for this, but that is another discussion.)

This forces me to keep looking through the turn, and if feels quite odd the first couple of times you do it.

It is an advanced technique, but it save my butt a few years ago.  I was the third rider in a group.  We had been hitting a bunch of 20MPH marked turn that were all blind, but predictable.  I decided at the next one I was going to go faster than I had been, and just as I turned I saw a brake light in front of me.

I had no idea why the other two bikes were stopping and I was leaned way over.  I had to brake hard in the turn - the other lane was obscured by a blind crest.

I stopped next to my friends and gave them the, "What the hell?" look.  As I looked at the road I noticed a truck on one side of the road and a tractor on the other side with a tan (same color as the pavement) tow strap stretched across the road.

The other two riders also stopped while leaned over (an MSF instructor and a road racer.)  It would have been ugly if we hadn't known how to stop while leaned over.

(I can tell you that you have to be careful on group rides with this technique.  I've almost got ass packed twice slowing while leaned over.  Even with a three or four second follow distance, some people simply are unable to slow their bike in a curve.  But if someone is following too close, braking in a curve really throws their rhythm off and causes them to back off.)

[Nitro]

Just do it, do it on diff surfaces, do it on curves.do it on diff bikes if you own them,.and do it lots..(but not in traffic eh???)Its called practice and it works pretty good in anything..
I try to do a few every week or so, might just help someday...maybe..

[arkansawyer]

The front end will get a "rubbery" feel to it as you approach the limit of braking.  When you feel that through the bars you are getting everything the front tire has.

I practice braking as hard as I can at least once a month.  I view it as my last line of defense.  I should be able to predict what is going to happen around me.  The last line has saved me several times.