Motorcycle "issues"

[Orson]

motorcycles aren't for sissys.

perhaps we can interest you in a Hyundai with electric mirrors  

The last thing we need is for some lab coat-wearing, slide ruler-usin', pencil-pushin' geek to hammer flat the last bit of character left in this world.

Forza Guzzi  

[scottzilla]

motorcycles aren't for sissys.

perhaps we can interest you in a Hyundai with electric mirrors  

The last thing we need is for some lab coat-wearing, slide ruler-usin', pencil-pushin' geek to hammer flat the last bit of character left in this world.

Forza Guzzi  

Yeah, the "Character" thing.  That alone is worth $2000.

[Orson]

I can hear the electric mirrors whirring from here  

[county]

Yeah, the "Character" thing.  That alone is worth $2000.

Now that brings up another point.  Price.  Jeebus, I paid $2000 for my first big bike, a 750 Triumph Trident (A leftover but new).  Several years later I paid $2000 for a 750F Honda (Also a new leftover).  

Today the price of a new motorcycle is equivalent to a car.  Not an expensive car but a car.  WTF?  How come cars get cheaper and motorcycles more expensive?

[atadaskew]

I can hear the electric mirrors whirring from here  

We don't neeeed no steeeenkin' mirrors.

[scottzilla]

Now that brings up another point.  Price.  Jeebus, I paid $2000 for my first big bike, a 750 Triumph Trident (A leftover but new).  Several years later I paid $2000 for a 750F Honda (Also a new leftover).  

Today the price of a new motorcycle is equivalent to a car.  Not an expensive car but a car.  WTF?  How come cars get cheaper and motorcycles more expensive?

I think it's been a while since you went car shopping.  Go ahead and find a new car for $11,200 and get back to me.
Oh, and I mean in the USA, not India, Korea, etc.

[chornbe]

true, but the price increases on bikes is disproportionate to those of cars.

[scottzilla]

true, but the price increases on bikes is disproportionate to those of cars.

I'm looking at the March 2000 issue of Cycle World right now (I saved it because it had an article on the Falco) and the newly redesigned Yamaha R1 had a list price of $10,299.  In 9 years, the bike has picked up whay? 40 HP and lost 30-50 pounds?  What is the current list price?
I totally agree: price increases are disproportionate.  Cars have gotten much more expensive!

Also, the R1 represents the best that motorcycling has to offer in terms of speed, weight and overall performance.  The equivalent car is a freaking Ferrari or something like that.

[3power]

Now, this will piss everyone off.  Look at Japanese bikes the last twenty years and tell me there is a huge gap in relialbility from 1989 to 2009.  You can't.  It's been consistant.  They built fine bikes then and they build fine bikes now.  In 1989, the weakest part on most Hondas was the stator and today, the weakest part on a Honda is the stator!  Consistant.  The Japanese have always built great motorcycles.
So the biggest change has come from companies that aren't Japanese, some of whom don't have a 20 year record to speak of!  KTM wasn't selling shit in the USA 20 years ago!  So these "Problems", the way I see it, are coming primarily from companies that aren't building bikes as well as the Japanese.  

That doesn't piss me off at all, but it's inaccurate.  Some examples:  the CBR 1000 oil consumption issue, the VFR electrical issue, the FZ1 cracked frame issue, the ZX10R frame braking issue.

[Giaka]

Holy crap, County said something positive about a Harley?  Man, you feeling okay?  Have you been going to counseling or something?  

Nah he said something about putting motorcycles on the hole now is better than it was 20 years ago.

[scottzilla]

That doesn't piss me off at all, but it's inaccurate.  Some examples:  the CBR 1000 oil consumption issue, the VFR electrical issue, the FZ1 cracked frame issue, the ZX10R frame braking issue.

Issues?  Or internet Loch Ness Monster stuff?

[atadaskew]

Issues?  Or internet Loch Ness Monster stuff?

The overheating problems with my Wing 1800 was an issue. As was it's frame cracking that had an associated recall.

[scottzilla]

The overheating problems with my Wing 1800 was an issue. As was it's frame cracking that had an associated recall.

A recall is an "Issue".  Your overheating problem was a problem you had with your bike.  The point is, nobody is saying bikes are perfect but I question "The Issues" people read about on the internet.  

[atadaskew]

A recall is an "Issue".  Your overheating problem was a problem you had with your bike.  The point is, nobody is saying bikes are perfect but I question "The Issues" people read about on the internet.  

Honda had a TSB/recall to 'fix' the overheating.  It was a different CPU.  Did not work on my bike.

[chornbe]

I question some of the design choices that lead to "issues".

For instance, the Gen-1 Connie was under-forked and under-braked for 2 decades. Rather than pull parts from another bin and iterate the bike, they just kept it as-was until a (FINALLY!) redesign.

My Harley is way overbuilt and its weight suffers because of it. I mean, the freaking heel-toe shifter I took off of it probably weighs the same as a bolt-on subframe of pretty much any japanese bike.

The FZ6 I had was just about perfect... then they cheaped out by saving... $200?... on shitty forks.   And ya know... it really doesn't cost that much more to put decent forks on a bike when you're the guy building them. I mean... the R6 has decent forks on it. There's no way it costs Yamaha $2500 to make them. No way.

When was the last time you heard of a final drive failure on a 900+ lb Goldwing? Yet you hear about lots of them on Beamers that 2/3 the weight and less. That's a design issue. Period. BMW couldn't build a decent reverse system for the K/LT so they licensed the design in the Goldwing for it. Do the same with final drives if you have to.

Things like that.

[Nevada]

What some folks seem to be ignorant of are the costs, and benefits, to the company to fix some of these "issues".

Let's take the forks of the FZ-6.  Yeah, it'll only cost Yamaha $200 in parts to put better forks on it.  If they put better forks on the FZ-6, is that going to cannibalize sales from the R6?  Yeah, it very well might.  So, putting better forks on simply means that Yamaha moves a customer from a bike that they make a $1000 profit on, to one they make $750 profit on....    

Now, let's say that Yamaha finds that the forks are way inadequate, to such an extent that customers are heading for the Hornet or GSX-650F or whatever.  So, how much is it going to cost Yamaha to put better forks on it?  A lot more than $200, because anything that effects the handling and safety of the bike has got to have a fair bit of testing done.  Let's say that the testing is going to take $50k, between test bikes, rider time, engineer time, documentation, etc.  How many more bikes must be sold to make up that $50K?  Let's say you raise the cost of the bike $300, just to cover the parts and testing.  That means you've got to sell 500 more bikes, bikes that are MORE expensive, which risks losing customers.  All while still designing the next generation Supersport and Literbike, the next generation YZF, etc, etc.  AND you gotta pay the poor schmuck responsible for coming up with BNG for the bikes you're not changing.

WE put up with the "character" because, by and large, motorcycles are recreational vehicles.  The manufacturer's allow it to slide because, compared to cars, the competitive pressures are minimal.  My guess is that Honda sold more Accords last year in North America than they sold sportbikes worldwide.

Yeah, there are some boneheaded things that the manufacturer's don't address, and if it's not a safety issue, the only way to address it from our end is to simply buy the other guy's product.