2011 Buell 1125RR?

[whodom]

Photo from RoadracerX:



Brad, is THAT good looking enough for you?  

Several hints have been posted at Badweb (based on info gleaned at the "last ride to the factory" last month) about a new model to be introduced next year which would have shed significant weight and added power compared to the existing 1125R.  Two features that appear to match up with the photo are an ultra-light tail section and chain drive.  The bike looks too complete to be a home built.  

Original page here:  http://www.roadracerx.com/features/road-racerhead/honda-road-racerhead-46/
Photo is at the bottom.

[st2sam]

   WHOA, thats sharp! I hope your on to something, for all the Buell lovers!

[falconati]

looks nice...it appears they were just hitting their stride.

[garry]

Buell started offering a lower fairing kit for the 1125. I wonder if that's it?

[Schneegz]

This should piss off the Bueller's even more.

Since the announcement of the Buell shutdown, some folks who would know, have been talking about a new Buell model that was in development. Details from those folks are mixed with lots of speculation, so it's hard to separate fact from fiction.

Someone tipped me to this photo of what they say is the bike in those rumors. It was shot by John Hanson, a contributing photographer for Road Racer X, somewhere near Milwaukee. It's not what most people expect to see when the name Buell is mentioned.

Speculation about the bike indicates a displacement of 1199cc and much less weight and more horsepower than the current 1125R, it's the kind of bike you would build if you were planning on World Super Bike competition, or more to the point, the bike you would build as a true, no compromise, world class American sport bike.

Let me repeat, though there is a lot of speculation and rumor about this, until confirmed, it is just that. But, ... the plug was pulled, the lights are out, so it may not really matter except as a sad reminder of what might have been.

[R Doug]

I would have loved to see that bike come out and see Buell compete in SBK.  I was also looking forward to a potential new Uly.  

[whodom]

Buell started offering a lower fairing kit for the 1125. I wonder if that's it?

Definitely not- here's the accessory fairing:  

[scramblerracer123]

I hope someone can keep the line going.

[veefer800canuck]

I would have loved to see that bike come out and see Buell compete in SBK.  I was also looking forward to a potential new Uly.  

Maybe that's why Harley killed the company?  

Because Eric might have succeded in AMA superbike where the VR1000 failed????  


(ahhh memories of Laguna Seca 2000, watching AMA superbike practice from the inside pit wall, DuHamel roaring in from a hot lap, hearing Peter Goddard ripping on the Benelli Tornado Tre in WSB, etc....)



Dayum nice bike, BTW.....

[Brad1445]

The bike in the picture is too marketable for Buell.  

That was the dream bike (and color) I would have bought.  I don't  believe  Erik Buell was smart enough to make a bike that mainstream that people would have liked and bought.  ie 1125r

It's way to logical.

Ruthless engineering, crushed Blast, pods, poor build quality is what he delivered after all that time and research $$$$$$.  That was how they played their cards.

Hopefully Buell we be remembered for the XB Bikes and not the rough beginnings and the embarrassing failures at the end.

[Brad1445]

Photo from RoadracerX:



Brad, is THAT good looking enough for you?  

I would have paid full sticker plus in a heartbeat.  

[Mastros2]

Very nice!

[xbud]

 I would have liked to see the CR version of that bike as well.

[falconati]

Just an FYI to certain members who continue to post in the Buell threads: the 1125s sold faster than the XBs.

[Schneegz]

Just an FYI to certain members who continue to post in the Buell threads: the 1125s sold faster than the XBs.

Really?  Where'd you get that info?

[falconati]

Really?  Where'd you get that info?

From all the dealers I called (around 20).  It's obviously an informal data source - I don't think Buell or HD will be releasing any formal sales data for the last few months...

[st ryder]

"...so it may not really matter except as a sad reminder of what might have been."

If anything, I think the yellow bike shows that a design can be different and identifiably unique by using subtle styling cues, rather than polarising extremes.  The lines of that bike remind me of an American muscle car.   Too bad Harley pulled the plug. Makes one wonder even more what they were thinking. That bike could have been a sales success IMHO.  

[st ryder]

Just an FYI to certain members who continue to post in the Buell threads: the 1125s sold faster than the XBs.

Not in my neck of the woods.

[Rogue]

It's not a cruiser so H-D pulled the plug.

H-D, and most of its customers have always been sport-bike haters.  You can see and hear that with most of its owners.  Many Buell owners certainly noticed it from their experiences at the dealerships.  

[st ryder]

It's not a cruiser so H-D pulled the plug.

H-D, and most of its customers have always been sport-bike haters.  You can see and hear that with most of its owners.  Many Buell owners certainly noticed it from their experiences at the dealerships.  

And yet, when I first heard of Buell 15 years ago, I was speaking with a Yamaha/TR dealer from whom I bought my '89 V-max, and stated to him at that time I wished HD would make a sport bike, "Now that would be cool." He said, "Well, there's that Buell thing." and suggested I stay away. So did just about all the reports I read on the early tubers. I *wanted* a HD sport bike, but due to the negative reports on the early tubers, I stayed away, waiting for things to change. They never did. That being said, I'd love to pick up a mint Thunderbolt S2 or 3 if I could steal it. The XB bikes were interesting, as the reliability seemed to improve greatly, but then again, most reports spoke of their quirky handling, that the suspension had to be set up just right to get them to work. Though I really liked the Firebolt, once again, I was hesitant to buy what I perceived to be a squirrley wheelie machine. Then the 1125r came out, and I lost all faith. Harley owners and dealer attitudes had nothing to do with my hesitation. It was the product that didn't win me over. (But like I said, I do like the Thunderbolts, but I'd have to steal it price wise to be interested)

[Castaway]

I still don't get that HD had a lot of technology wrapped up in the bike, causing them to simply cancel it instead of selling it off. It was only the motor that was HD, yes? They started using the Rotax, why can't someone buy it and go Rotax all the way?

[whodom]

I still don't get that HD had a lot of technology wrapped up in the bike, causing them to simply cancel it instead of selling it off. It was only the motor that was HD, yes? They started using the Rotax, why can't someone buy it and go Rotax all the way?

Yea, that's kind of obvious to anyone with any technical knowledge of the bikes, and apparently, some of HD's investors on Wall Street are starting to question some of the "facts" surrounding the decision to kill Buell as well.  If you were up to your eyeballs in bad debt like HD (bike loans made to people who couldn't afford them) and had a few million dollars worth of equipment sitting around (not to mention a bunch of patents) and had at least one new state-of-the art bike ready to go to production, why wouldn't you at least TRY to sell them to raise some much-needed cash?  Instead you declare all this stuff has "no intrinsic value", can't be separated from Harley, and spend $70M MORE to close Buell down as quickly as humanly possible.  

Yea, that makes perfect business sense......NOT.

[whodom]

The bike in the picture is too marketable for Buell.  

That was the dream bike (and color) I would have bought.  I don't  believe  Erik Buell was smart enough to make a bike that mainstream that people would have liked and bought.  ie 1125r

It's way to logical.

Ruthless engineering, crushed Blast, pods, poor build quality is what he delivered after all that time and research $$$$$$.  That was how they played their cards.

Hopefully Buell we be remembered for the XB Bikes and not the rough beginnings and the embarrassing failures at the end.

Brad- one thing with you and the 1125R:  you take it for granted that Erik Buell himself personally selected (or at least approved) the bike's styling, orchestrated the original press introduction, and came up with the "ruthless engineering"/crushed Blast ad campaign.

Granted my info hardly comes from an unbiased source, but since October 15 I've read that (1) Erik Buell wanted the original 1125R to be fully-faired but was overruled  (2) the 1125R press introduction publicity was handled by HD marketing (and I'd guess they had a hand in forcing the bikes to be given to the press before they were ready) and (3) the latest ad campaign was 100% orchestrated by HD marketing.  

I still don't get your fixation with the 1125's being "an embarrassing failure".  FI problems were fixed before December 2007.  Bad blinkers and leaky clutch covers are pretty minor items that have also been cured.  Evidently in less than a year the styling would have been fixed. The bikes work- they are NOT failures.

Maybe the things you hate about the 1125R happened DESPITE, not because of Erik Buell?

[Rogue]

Forget about reasoning with Brad.  He's gone off the deep end.

It's like telling a Muslim that Christianity is the better religion.  The more you argue, the more he will dig in his heels.  

[UFO]

Forget about reasoning with Brad.  He's gone off the deep end.

It's like telling a Muslim that Christianity is the better religion.  The more you argue, the more he will dig in his heels.  

 

[wbrisett]

 

Which debating Brad's comments or religion?  

Wayne

[Rogue]

Oops!  I got written up.  

[atypical1]

Forget about reasoning with Brad.  He's gone off the deep end.

You mean just like you and the VFR? Or urine cup reservoirs?  

james

[Rogue]

The last time I posted about Urine cups on Ducatis was yesterday.  The time before that was, hmmmmmm.....over a year ago or more?

Brad has been bashing Buells and the 1125R every other post since 2008.  Quite a bit different and I'm not the only one who's tired of it.  

But hey, I don't hold a grudge on Urine Cups.  I just don't think they belong on bikes costing an arm and a leg.....like Ducatis.  And my love for the VFR is well known nor am I alone in this so it's not totally out of line.  But in case you haven't been paying attention, I do NOT like the 2010 VFR.  I think it's too heavy.  So yeah.  I drank the cool aid but just not the new & improved version.  

[Schneegz]

I'd compare Brad to a very grumpy, negative, not-nearly-as-much-fun Larry (BLS).  Mercy!

[atypical1]

Well, to be fair to Brad the mistakes made by Buell means that his brand got shut down. Yeah, I'd probably be bitter too.

james

[Kootenanny]

Yea, that's kind of obvious to anyone with any technical knowledge of the bikes, and apparently, some of HD's investors on Wall Street are starting to question some of the "facts" surrounding the decision to kill Buell as well.  If you were up to your eyeballs in bad debt like HD (bike loans made to people who couldn't afford them) and had a few million dollars worth of equipment sitting around (not to mention a bunch of patents) and had at least one new state-of-the art bike ready to go to production, why wouldn't you at least TRY to sell them to raise some much-needed cash?  Instead you declare all this stuff has "no intrinsic value", can't be separated from Harley, and spend $70M MORE to close Buell down as quickly as humanly possible.  

Aaaargh!  I guess this is what happens when a motorcycle company hires a CEO who doesn't even know how to ride a bike.  You get a company interested in making the best motorcycles most profit for their shareholders...

[Rogue]

Well, to be fair to Brad the mistakes made by Buell means that his brand got shut down. Yeah, I'd probably be bitter too.

james

You haven't been paying attention to his posts.  He is NOT bitter Buell got shut down.  He is HAPPY Buell got shut down!  He has taken every opportunity to make that clear.  So it makes my complaint about Urine Cup, which I last mentioned over a year ago, pale in comparison.  

[Brad1445]

Just an FYI to certain members who continue to post in the Buell threads: the 1125s sold faster than the XBs.

Not from the dealers I speak of, unless your talking about the current$5000 off a 1125 or $3000 of an xb sale.  the lightning was number one "free market" selling bike.

[Brad1445]

The last time I posted about Urine cups on Ducatis was yesterday.  The time before that was, hmmmmmm.....over a year ago or more?

Brad has been bashing Buells and the 1125R every other post since 2008.  ..........  

I dont write the news I just report it

[Schneegz]

Well, to be fair to Brad the mistakes made by Buell means that his brand got shut down. Yeah, I'd probably be bitter too.

james

Dude, Brad was bitter long, LONG before Buell shut donw!

[st ryder]

Granted my info hardly comes from an unbiased source, but since October 15 I've read that (1) Erik Buell wanted the original 1125R to be fully-faired but was overruled  (2) the 1125R press introduction publicity was handled by HD marketing (and I'd guess they had a hand in forcing the bikes to be given to the press before they were ready) and (3) the latest ad campaign was 100% orchestrated by HD marketing.

So, Erik gets all the credit for the "good" stuff, and HD the blame for all the bad.  

Seriously, when it comes down to making up stories to make sense of things, people need to get a grip.  

1) HD's only sport bike was fully fairied.
2) HD never launched a bike at a track afaik. V-rod was introduced at an art museum.
3) HD never crushed one of its own, and in fact had advertising campaigns that said pridefully that most of their bikes are still on the road, and that they don't make it to the scrap yards.  And what about the "tales" that HD *forced* Buell to build the Blast? So HD is the evil force behind both creating and then crushing the Blast?

[Brad1445]

Well, to be fair to Brad the mistakes made by Buell means that his brand got shut down. Yeah, I'd probably be bitter too.

james

BINGO


Thank you!   I'm sad for Buell, sad for America.  Sad There is no American made bikes I can spend money on.  






Buy now I probably would have bought 3 more Buells if they were marketable.

[atypical1]

I actually agree with Brad. The only complaint I ever heard about Buells (and I felt the same way) was that people didn't like the motor. So what does Buell do when they get a great motor? Put it in the ugliest bike possible. Ugly bikes don't sell (the exception are the big supersport bikes like the busa and zx14) and they had plenty of evidence to prove that. I mean how do you mess up such an important launch so bad?

james

[Brad1445]

Dude, Brad was bitter long, LONG before Buell shut donw!

Shut down was obvious when they rolled the 2009 models out even after knowing the dogs were not eating the 2008 food they still had.  Yes I seen the writing on the wall.  Merchandise must have demand are you go out of business.

The only fault harley has here is giving Buell enough rope to hang themeless, and i Have no doubt that drugs must have played a part in the Buell Buell board meetings.  Unless Erik is like Sadam hussein and killed people who did not go the party line.  No one was brave enough to tell the emperor he had no clothes.  Shame on the whole team!

[Brad1445]

I actually agree with Brad. The only complaint I ever heard about Buells (and I felt the same way) was that people didn't like the motor. So what does Buell do when they get a great motor? Put it in the ugliest bike possible. Ugly bikes don't sell (the exception are the big supersport bikes like the busa and zx14) and they had plenty of evidence to prove that. I mean how do you mess up such an important launch so bad?

james

Agreed, 1000%.  Many more people would love to buy American, but we have to be at least somewhat competitive.  I loved the XB series so well I would still buy a Ulysses if I could find a good deal.

[Brad1445]

The other reason I say its Buells fault not Harleys is Harley has killed many bikes after one year runs if the bike did not sell well like the Street rod.  Buell sent the same bike out three years in a row, they had to notice they were piling up at dealers.

[tankhead]

2011 Buell Barracuda.  

[nanbil]

The other reason I say its Buells fault not Harleys is Harley has killed many bikes after one year runs if the bike did not sell well like the Street rod.  Buell sent the same bike out three years in a row, they had to notice they were piling up at dealers.

The Street Rod was available for two years: 2006 and 2007.

[Rincewind]

This should piss off the Bueller's even more.

It looks very Ducati 848 inspired.  What a shame that we will never see it produced.  

[2DFlyer]

So, Erik gets all the credit for the "good" stuff, and HD the blame for all the bad.  

Bingo.  Not like I have the inside, but Erik was the tech chief and his damn name was on the bike.  Does anybody really think we'd be having this conversation if this is the bike they launched?  Hell no, the world would be singing Buell's praises and NOBODY would have remembered anything about fueling glitches or turn signal wiring.  The worst that would have happened is people would have been complaining about the $13K sticker and making snide comments about leaking clutch covers and Harlies of old.

[Tyrroneous]

Wow.  That is a sharp looking bike.  It does look a better than the 1125R (although the more I look at my 1125R, the more I like it).  I wonder if the radiators are side or front mounted?  Hard to tell from that picture.  

I hope that beautiful peice of machinery did not end up in the crusher.  

[Brad1445]

What 2DFlyer flyer just said.  



supply and demand, its that simple

[st ryder]

2011 Buell Barracuda.  

Is that a suggestion or the actual project name? I like it. Baracuda's were cool American muscle cars.  

[falconati]

The more I see 1125Rs, the more I like them.

[tankhead]

Actual.

[st ryder]

Actual.

" 'cuda "  

[Rogue]

 I mean how do you mess up such an important launch so bad?

james

You forgot about the launch of the BMW K1200S and its myriad FI and tranny glitches.  

It took BMW a year to fix all that.

[atypical1]

You forgot about the launch of the BMW K1200S and its myriad FI and tranny glitches.  

It took BMW a year to fix all that.

Yeah but people still bought the bike. Just like people buy the VFR even though it weighs as much as a K12S and has half the power. For BMW the bike was and is a good seller for them because the performance and looks were both there.

Don't try to divert attention away from the 1125 fiasco because they were not the same. Buell took the only complaint that I ever heard about the bike and fixed it only to create one that is much worse. All they had to do was take that Rotax motor and put it in the Thunderbolt frame and people would have loved it. Instead they create the ugliest packed that the motorcycle community has ever seen.

Buell will never be able to fix that...

james

[Brad1445]

It would take too many years and marketing dollars to try and reverse the damage the 1125 caused.
The Buell name is now associated as a problem plagued  $5,000 crappy ugly, poorly built bike.

One hope!

Harley introduces sport bikes directly into their line just like Triumph successfully did.

They take the technologies they paid for that work, re wrap them in new sexy competitive designs. Increase quality control from where Buell was to the standards you find on other Harley's.

Retrain the sales and  service staff to the full line of American bikes.

[Schneegz]

Yeah but people still bought the bike. Just like people buy the VFR even though it weighs as much as a K12S and has half the power. For BMW the bike was and is a good seller for them because the performance and looks were both there.

Don't try to divert attention away from the 1125 fiasco because they were not the same. Buell took the only complaint that I ever heard about the bike and fixed it only to create one that is much worse. All they had to do was take that Rotax motor and put it in the Thunderbolt frame and people would have loved it. Instead they create the ugliest packed that the motorcycle community has ever seen.

Buell will never be able to fix that...

james

The Helicon engine wouldn't have fit in the Firebolt frame.  Besides, the new frame is better.  It's cast with a new technique that makes it lighter, yet stronger and stiffer.  The styling and maintenance issues, on the other hand...

[tigertim955]

It would take too many years and marketing dollars to try and reverse the damage the 1125 caused.
The Buell name is now associated as a problem plagued  $5,000 crappy ugly, poorly built bike.

One hope!

Harley introduces sport bikes directly into their line just like Triumph successfully did.

They take the technologies they paid for that work, re wrap them in new sexy competitive designs. Increase quality control from where Buell was to the standards you find on other Harley's.

Retrain the sales and  service staff to the full line of American bikes.

If THAT bike was badged Harley Davidson do you think it would get any respect ? Or sales ?

[scramblerracer123]

yes-If Harley dealers sold them as Harleys and not as the ugly step child called Buell.  

[atypical1]

The styling and maintenance issues, on the other hand...

Ducati is proof that style matters more than reliability. The 916 based bikes look awesome but weren't as reliable as the 999 series bikes but everyone hated the 999 because it wasn't as pretty.

james

[Rogue]

Don't try to divert attention away from the 1125 fiasco because they were not the same. Buell took the only complaint that I ever heard about the bike and fixed it only to create one that is much worse. All they had to do was take that Rotax motor and put it in the Thunderbolt frame and people would have loved it. Instead they create the ugliest packed that the motorcycle community has ever seen.
james

The problems of the 1125R is not any different from the problems the K1200S had.  

Buell did take the XB frame (not literally but they used a similar style frame but reinforced it--no oil in swing arm) and put the Rotax motor in it.  They packaged the body that you did not like so you think it's ugly.  Many don't think it's ugly.  Just because you and Brad do doesn't mean everyone else does.

In addition, Buell never sold the XB bikes in any large numbers either, not even in its first year of production.  

The reason Buell was shut down was because H-D wanted to divert all of their resources into saving their core division:  Cruisers.  It has already been said that Buell was profitable but H-D's Financial division was bleeding the company dry.  In contrast, when BMW has a model that doesn't sell they just shut down the production of that bike.  You own one of those bikes.  It didn't sell all that well because many people didn't like it for whatever reason.  So BMW shut it down.  However, BMW's sheer size and resources allows them to weather this financial storm.  Unlike H-D, who is much smaller and much more focused on products that sell well only during good times.  

I'm not trying to divert attention away from the 1125R.  I am simply trying to explain to you that Buell is NOT the only company that has released models with first production year problems.  In addition, Buell is not the only maker that creates contraversial design elements that some may consider ugly or undesirable enough not to be unpopular.  BMW has quite a few models that they have discontinued because the bikes were too ugly or undesirable to sell well.  

[Rogue]

Ducati is proof that style matters more than reliability. james

Maybe it is for you.  But style won't matter much if the bike spends months in the shop waiting for parts and/or getting repaired?  Isn't this why you traded in your Multi-Strada because of this?  Did it not need a near-complete engine rebuild around the 30k mile mark?  Did it not spend a lot of time at the dealership service floor?  In addition, the Mulit-Strada is only good looking when it sat next to a Vstrom!    So it seems to me that your actions speak louder than your words would suggest.

In any case style is a matter of personal taste.  What you think is ugly is beautiful to others.  Look at how popular the Vstrom is, or the Hayabusa.  Heck, there are people who love the Ural and those are only sexy next to a Lada!

[Castaway]

 The styling and maintenance issues, on the other hand...

Is the maintenance any different from any other shim-under-bucket design? I know the FI had some problems but what else?

As for the styling, IMHO it's the pods that suck, and I think they suck from an engineering POV as well as style. I don't get how/why they came up with them. If I had the $$ to drop it would be so tempting to pick one up and figure out pod alternatives.

[st ryder]

...The reason Buell was shut down was because H-D wanted to divert all of their resources into saving their core division:  Cruisers.  It has already been said that Buell was profitable but H-D's Financial division was bleeding the company dry.

Not being a business minded person, this seems to make no sense to me, for a large company to to shut down a profitable venture, because another venture is losing money.   I can only think reports that Buell was profitable are false, or, shutting them down was motivated in non-business considerations.

[Rabidsnipe]

Not being a business minded person, this seems to make no sense to me, for a large company to to shut down a profitable venture, because another venture is losing money.   I can only think reports that Buell was profitable are false, or, shutting them down was motivated in non-business considerations.

Happens all the time.  My company just purchased a profitable entity from a large corporation who sold it because it wasn't a fit for their long-term goals.  They've basically been letting it rot while they invested the money elsewhere.

[Brad1445]

The problems of the 1125R is not any different from the problems the K1200S had.  

................  Just because you and Brad do doesn't mean everyone else does.

In addition, Buell never sold the XB bikes in any large numbers either, not even in its first year of production.  

The reason Buell was shut down was because H-D wanted to divert all of their resources into saving their core division:  

You don't have to be a DR to know when your sick, or a mechanic to know when something is running wrong with your car, and you do not need to be a designer to know when something is obviously incorrectly styled like a round peg in a square hole.

If you think there are huge crowds of admirers of the 1125's styling do you think Iraq was involved in 9-11 also?

As a  Buell fan everyone knew I was waiting for the new bike. When the pics became available, even people that don't know anything about motorcycles grimaced when I showed them to pictures.  Show one review where the bike was complemented on styling, quite the opposite.

On comparing it to the BMW launch, NO COMPARISON.  You can list there problems on a note card, the Buell needs a Notebook.

80% of the dealers voted they no longer wished to carry Buell bikes.  If the bikes were selling that would not have happened.  Dealers don't walk away from money EVER!

[falconati]

Not being a business minded person, this seems to make no sense to me, for a large company to to shut down a profitable venture, because another venture is losing money.   I can only think reports that Buell was profitable are false, or, shutting them down was motivated in non-business considerations.

I work in corporate finance, so I can help explain this.  A business usually sets a goal for an acceptable return on investment (ROI) or return on equity (ROE).  Let's say Harley Davidson's acceptable ROI is 18%.  Even though Buell is turning 10% profit (not official data, just for argument's sake), it is below the acceptable ROI figure.  Why is that important?  Because even though Harley can make $.10 on the dollar for running a profitable Buell business unit, they'd rather dump the capital in their core brand, where the return is higher.

[Brad1445]

I work in corporate finance, so I can help explain this.  A business usually sets a goal for an acceptable return on investment (ROI) or return on equity (ROE).  Let's say Harley Davidson's acceptable ROI is 18%.  Even though Buell is turning 10% profit (not official data, just for argument's sake), it is below the acceptable ROI figure.  Why is that important?  Because even though Harley can make $.10 on the dollar for running a profitable Buell business unit, they'd rather dump the capital in their core brand, where the return is higher.

Now add basements full of 2008 models, bad press, and a dealer vote, well there you go.

[Schneegz]

Ducati is proof that style matters more than reliability. The 916 based bikes look awesome but weren't as reliable as the 999 series bikes but everyone hated the 999 because it wasn't as pretty.

james

Yeah, but Italian bikes - and cars - are held to a different standard.  Everyone expects them to be drop dead gorgeous but unreliable.  Just like people expect Japanese bikes - and cars - to be plain but reliable as an axe.

I'm not sure what people expect from an American sportbike, since none has ever existed that was competitive.  I know what I would like to see in one.  I want competitive performance, reliability and distinct, attractive styling.

[st ryder]

I work in corporate finance, so I can help explain this.  A business usually sets a goal for an acceptable return on investment (ROI) or return on equity (ROE).  Let's say Harley Davidson's acceptable ROI is 18%.  Even though Buell is turning 10% profit (not official data, just for argument's sake), it is below the acceptable ROI figure.  Why is that important?  Because even though Harley can make $.10 on the dollar for running a profitable Buell business unit, they'd rather dump the capital in their core brand, where the return is higher.

That's a great explanation, thanks.  

[whodom]

I work in corporate finance, so I can help explain this.  A business usually sets a goal for an acceptable return on investment (ROI) or return on equity (ROE).  Let's say Harley Davidson's acceptable ROI is 18%.  Even though Buell is turning 10% profit (not official data, just for argument's sake), it is below the acceptable ROI figure.  Why is that important?  Because even though Harley can make $.10 on the dollar for running a profitable Buell business unit, they'd rather dump the capital in their core brand, where the return is higher.

That's a perfectly reasonable and logical explanation for Buell's closure.  OTOH, if you were in this situation, why would you take this bogus stance that Buell is "too integrated" with Harley to be sold and refuse to consider selling Buell?  If Harley's as desperate for cash as they appear to be, it certainly seems like they'd be willing to accept any reasonable offer.  Instead they've said they will not sell Buell and that this "is not a reversible decision".  WTF?

[Tpoppa]

If you were to delete everything but the facts from Brad's posts, there would be quite a few blank entries.

Go ahead and blame Buell marketing for the Blast Crushing, Book of Buell, and the rushing the 1125 to market before the FI was sorted out...Oh wait a second...there is NO Buell marketing dept.  It was 100% controlled by HD...fact.

You think there are Buell/sportbike haters at HD dealers?  They have nothing on HD mangement.  There are top HD execs that purposely made life tough on Buell, and mis-informed people like Brad, blame Buell for it  

If you looks at the facts about the closing, it doesn't add up.  As stated earlier in this thread, Investment Firms that are heavily involved in HOG are starting to ask questions.  I strongly suspect that the real facts about the Buell closure will see the light of day soon.

[kevin_stevens]

That's a perfectly reasonable and logical explanation for Buell's closure.  OTOH, if you were in this situation, why would you take this bogus stance that Buell is "too integrated" with Harley to be sold and refuse to consider selling Buell?  If Harley's as desperate for cash as they appear to be, it certainly seems like they'd be willing to accept any reasonable offer.  Instead they've said they will not sell Buell and that this "is not a reversible decision".  WTF?

The best explanation I've heard is that there is too much Harley technology in the Buell's, particularly in the Evo-engined bikes, for Harley to be willing to sell the division off with the licensing/NDA that would be needed.

KeS

[Tpoppa]

That's a perfectly reasonable and logical explanation for Buell's closure.  OTOH, if you were in this situation, why would you take this bogus stance that Buell is "too integrated" with Harley to be sold and refuse to consider selling Buell?  If Harley's as desperate for cash as they appear to be, it certainly seems like they'd be willing to accept any reasonable offer.  Instead they've said they will not sell Buell and that this "is not a reversible decision".  WTF?

I think you are on the right track.

Too integated?  I formally call shenanigans. In this age of mergers and spinoffs, much more complicated business actions take place all the time. I personally have been involved in 2 of them. GM sold Hummer, Ford is trying to sell Volvo, etc.

I fully understand why HD wants to keep control of the XB motor. But what is 'integrated' about the 1125. There is 1 part that is common between the 1125 and HD (The 1125 and the VROD happen to use the same valve shims). All 1125 parts are designed by Buell, made by Buell, or sourced from a vendor.

HD has also said they don't want to let an outside business entitiy gain access to their dealer network. Again, I fully understand that reasoning. However, the groups that are trying to buy Buell have already stated that would not want any access to HD dealers.

HD is hurting for cash...cash has been offered for Buell  

[Rogue]

You have to remember too that H-D wants to "pad" their Financial Position to make their stocks more desirable.  If they sell Buell, even if it cost them millions to dismantle, they get a huge tax write off.  In addition, not having Buell allows them to focus their efforts and resources in developing their core brand, which are words that they can use to pump themselves up to the stock holders and Wall Street analysts.  

This is a game CEO's and CFO's play and sing all the time.  A publicly traded company MUST look good to Wall Street analysts every quarter so that the analysts will recommend their stocks to investors.  This keeps stock prices high and stockholdres happy.  I've heard that song and dance so many times that we often joke about it in the Finance group.

[Brad1445]

If you were to delete everything but the facts from Brad's posts, there would be quite a few blank entries.

Ok Keep it simple, Supply and demand.  Buell was not killed it committed suicide.  





I think beyond it being the fat chick at the party, there ere a few more problems then EFI, do we want to review them one by one?

80% of he Dealers said game over, they called the shot.

Supply and demand.

The saddest part is with a Rotax engine they had every thing needed to make a world class sport bike, but fubared and instead of admitting their mistakes keep rolling with them.



There is a thing called Focus Groups.  They could have tried that to begin with.  Then DONT SELL A BIKE THAT DONT RUN.

[Tpoppa]

In addition, not having Buell allows them to focus their efforts and resources in developing their core brand,

Keep in mind we are talking about HD.  How many resources does it take to find another place to add more chrome to a Road King?

A publicly traded company MUST look good to Wall Street analysts every quarter so that the analysts will recommend their stocks to investors.  

Agreed.  How does burying a saleable asset help that position?  Buell technology & patents will never find their way into an Electra-Glide.  Investment firms that deal in HOG are asking that very question.


America needs a Sportbike manufacturer.  Wisconsin needs jobs.  Cut Buell loose.
 

[Tpoppa]

Ok Keep it simple, Supply and demand.  Buell was not killed it committed suicide.  

80% of he Dealers said game over, they called the shot.

Supply and demand.

OK.  I agree that 80% of HD dealers had no interest in selling Buell.  There were some very good ones, but those were the minority.  Even with a weak dealer network & questionable marketing, Buell managed to grow:

..........Buell........Harley. These are bikes sales $$ x 1000
2003 * 76,064 * 3,621,488
2004 * 79,029 * 3,928,232
2005 * 93,069 * 4,183,515
2006 * 102,227 * 4,553,561
2007 * 100,534 * 4,446,637
2008 * 123,086 * 4,278,241

Over these years Buell had 61.8% growth, HD had 18.1% growth.

You would think that someone with vision & business acumen could capitalize on 60% growth (in 6 years) or position it as a saleable asset?  Not only did HD not do that, they set Buell up to fail, when Buell didn't fail they pulled the plug.  If I was a HOG investor I would DEMAND a much better explanation from the Board of Directors than 'too integrated to sell."

[Rogue]

Harley Davidson's treatment of Buell is exactly the way their dealers treated Buell customers.  

They loathed us, and they had no clue about the bikes.  

H-D will pay the price for their shortsightedness, just like GM has.

[whodom]

Excellent article about Buell on the Kneeslider:

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/11/19/harley-davidson-and-buell-unfinished-business/

[Brad1445]

.  If I was a HOG investor I would DEMAND a much better explanation from the Board of Directors than 'too integrated to sell."

The question is why was Harley not insisting on quality control, Harley should have fired most of the top Buell management in 2008.  Thats where Harley failed, letting a branch of the company run around unchecked.

Harley could sue Erik for destroying the company it invested so heavily in but I don't think you can sue your own employees because your supposed to manage them.  Thats is Harley Failure, letting Buell go Rouge on Harley's dime.

Everyone likes to Harley bash.  Tough to grow leaps and bounds when you already own the market.  Easy to double your numbers when you sell such small numbers.  

This is not brain science

[Tpoppa]

The question is why was Harley not insisting on quality control, Harley should have fired most of the top Buell management in 2008.  Thats where Harley failed, letting a branch of the company run around unchecked.

Harley could sue Erik for destroying the company it invested so heavily in but I don't think you can sue your own employees because your supposed to manage them.  Thats is Harley Failure, letting Buell go Rouge on Harley's dime.

Interesting theory.  Wrong, but interesting nonetheless.

Everyone likes to Harley bash.  Tough to grow leaps and bounds when you already own the market.  Easy to double your numbers when you sell such small numbers.  

This is not brain science

Is this what you ar trying to say?  If so, you are correct on this point, and it was percieved as a threat by some execs at HD.

[Tpoppa]

People are starting to ask the right questions.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/11/19/harley-davidson-and-buell-unfinished-business/

[Brad1445]

People are starting to ask the right questions.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/11/19/harley-davidson-and-buell-unfinished-business/

Starting?


No the buell customers have been waiting years for that bike, that why the shock of the 1125.

[Tpoppa]

Yes, starting to ask th right questions about the Buell closure.  The reasons were more personal than financial.

I'm glad you enjoyed your XBs.  They are fine bikes, I've owned 2 myself.  Out of curiousity, have you owned or had any significant seat time on an 1125?  With the latest ECM calibrations, the fueling is as good as or better than my CBR600F4i.  This is impressive for 2 reasons:  The larger the cylinder, the harder it is to achieve smooth fueling (ask Ducati or BMW about that), and the 1125 was designed under stricter EPA regulations than the F4i.  

The Helicon delivers gobs of linear power and pulls extremely hard.  4th gear power wheelies (no clutch) are possible, I found this out when easily pulling away from an 08 GSXR600 on a desolate stretch of county backroad.  The motor is amazingly strong.

The 1125 handling is impeccable.  It's not quite as flickable as an XB on very tight technical roads (something the XBs do exceedingly well) due to the slightly longer wheelbase.  But the longer wheelbase is needed for stability due to the higher speeds achieved by the 1125 (170ish indicated).  It's the best handling bike of the 20 or so that I've owned, and the many more I've ridden.    

Say what you will about the styling.   The fairing and pods just plain work.  Wind protection is among the best of any sportbike.  The 1125 runs a few degrees cooler than my F4i, so the pods must work especially when you consider that a big twin generates more heat than a 600 I4.

So there you have it, the styling is clearly function over form.  Admittedly, this doesn't satisfy everyones motorcycle preferences.  However, the overwhelming majority of 1125 owners are thrilled with their bikes.

It's interesting that you mention KTM when KTMs styling is easily as divisive as Buells.

 

[chornbe]

It would take too many years and marketing dollars to try and reverse the damage the 1125 caused.
The Buell name is now associated as a problem plagued  $5,000 crappy ugly, poorly built bike.

 

The 1125 is actually the last thing I think about when I hear Buell.

Everyone views him, the company and the bikes from different perspectives.

[st ryder]

Yes, starting to ask th right questions about the Buell closure.  The reasons were more personal than financial.

I'm glad you enjoyed your XBs.  They are fine bikes, I've owned 2 myself.  Out of curiousity, have you owned or had any significant seat time on an 1125?  With the latest ECM calibrations, the fueling is as good as or better than my CBR600F4i.  This is impressive for 2 reasons:  The larger the cylinder, the harder it is to achieve smooth fueling (ask Ducati or BMW about that), and the 1125 was designed under stricter EPA regulations than the F4i.  

The Helicon delivers gobs of linear power and pulls extremely hard.  4th gear power wheelies (no clutch) are possible, I found this out when easily pulling away from an 08 GSXR600 on a desolate stretch of county backroad.  The motor is amazingly strong.

The 1125 handling is impeccable.  It's not quite as flickable as an XB on very tight technical roads (something the XBs do exceedingly well) due to the slightly longer wheelbase.  But the longer wheelbase is needed for stability due to the higher speeds achieved by the 1125 (170ish indicated).  It's the best handling bike of the 20 or so that I've owned, and the many more I've ridden.    

Say what you will about the styling.   The fairing and pods just plain work.  Wind protection is among the best of any sportbike.  The 1125 runs a few degrees cooler than my F4i, so the pods must work especially when you consider that a big twin generates more heat than a 600 I4.

So there you have it, the styling is clearly function over form.  Admittedly, this doesn't satisfy everyones motorcycle preferences.  However, the overwhelming majority of 1125 owners are thrilled with their bikes.

It's interesting that you mention KTM when KTMs styling is easily as divisive as Buells.

 

Would this thread, or any number of other threads re Buell and the 1125r even be happening had the bike come out looking like the Barracuda? You seek to diminish the effect its looks, ie the pods, had on prospective buyers. I am not convinced the pods can "claim" asylum from the criticism that has plagued them since introduction under "function over form" styling, as split rads have been done to look a lot better than that, and in this case, they could also have *easily* been made to look better as well, which I'm thinking is what the optional lower fairing kit offered later on speaks to. It was badly styled by people who were out of touch with "reality" IMO, and *if* there *is* more to the Buell closure than finances, ie personal vendetta, then one might think it's HD "getting even" with the people who introduced such a gross looking bike to be sold in HD dealerships. Considering the emphasis HD puts on styling, one might also reasonably conclude the pods themselves were a slap in the face to HD. I cannot buy into the concept that they were products of *any* HD designer, or that they met the approval of HD design team. The V-rod for example, has a *functional* rad, and yet much effort and discussion was put into how it looks on the bike. Sorry, but it doesn't matter how well the 1125r handles, it's butt ugly to the *vast majority* of people who look at it, but unlike the Multi-Strada and GS and even the Busa as examples, the questionable looks of those bikes could not dampen the enthusiasm of the throngs of faithful owners and wanna be buyers. Buell did not have such similar throngs to save a bad design from itself because they were always too busy being "different in everyway." Well, that the Barracuda even exists shows that at least they were becoming a big enough company to change their approach in order to increase sales, in other words, to admit they were wrong. Too little too late. If Buell *is* sold to a group of investors, do you *really* think for one moment they would bring the 1125 bikes back the way they looked? Not a chance IMO.  

[Brad1445]

Would this thread, or any number of other threads re Buell and the 1125r even be happening had the bike come out looking like the Barracuda? You seek to diminish the effect its looks, ie the pods, had on prospective buyers. I am not convinced the pods can "claim" asylum from the criticism that has plagued them since introduction under "function over form" styling, as split rads have been done to look a lot better than that, and in this case, they could also have *easily* been made to look better as well, which I'm thinking is what the optional lower fairing kit offered later on speaks to. It was badly styled by people who were out of touch with "reality" IMO, and *if* there *is* more to the Buell closure than finances, ie personal vendetta, then one might think it's HD "getting even" with the people who introduced such a gross looking bike to be sold in HD dealerships. Considering the emphasis HD puts on styling, one might also reasonably conclude the pods themselves were a slap in the face to HD. I cannot buy into the concept that they were products of *any* HD designer, or that they met the approval of HD design team. The V-rod for example, has a *functional* rad, and yet much effort and discussion was put into how it looks on the bike. Sorry, but it doesn't matter how well the 1125r handles, it's butt ugly to the *vast majority* of people who look at it, but unlike the Multi-Strada and GS and even the Busa as examples, the questionable looks of those bikes could not dampen the enthusiasm of the throngs of faithful owners and wanna be buyers. Buell did not have such similar throngs to save a bad design from itself because they were always too busy being "different in everyway." Well, that the Barracuda even exists shows that at least they were becoming a big enough company to change their approach in order to increase sales, in other words, to admit they were wrong. Too little too late. If Buell *is* sold to a group of investors, do you *really* think for one moment they would bring the 1125 bikes back the way they looked? Not a chance IMO.  

Good Post.


Having customers wanting your product is kind of important!

[Kootenanny]

...I am not convinced the pods can "claim" asylum from the criticism that has plagued them since introduction under "function over form" styling, as split rads have been done to look a lot better than that, and in this case, they could also have *easily* been made to look better as well, which I'm thinking is what the optional lower fairing kit offered later on speaks to.

One thing: the split rads on the Buell were different from any others I've ever seen on a motorycle, in that they pass the air from the outside to the inside, rather than vice versa.  This means some kind of scoops are necessary, to direct that clean air from the side over the rads.

Granted, they might have made the pods look better.  However, I didn't mind the looks, so I don't really understand what all the fuss from you (and far more especially, Brad) is all about.  Maybe I'm clueless about aesthetic design (never mind the awards I've won for my visual artwork).

[Brad1445]

One thing: the split rads on the Buell were different from any others I've ever seen on a motorycle, in that they pass the air from the outside to the inside, rather than vice versa.  This means some kind of scoops are necessary, to direct that clean air from the side over the rads.

Granted, they might have made the pods look better.  However, I didn't mind the looks, so I don't really understand what all the fuss from you (and far more especially, Brad) is all about.  Maybe I'm clueless about aesthetic design (never mind the awards I've won for my visual artwork).

you really think
The proportions fit the design?
The Pods lines fit the overall design?
The naked concept is consistent?

The way they were implemented made them a focal point. Maybe it was intentional, but is by no measure matches the ret of the bike.  Maybe because most of it was designed for a 2003 model Naked Buell.  Do we want to talk about the top fairing as design?

[Castaway]

One thing: the split rads on the Buell were different from any others I've ever seen on a motorycle, in that they pass the air from the outside to the inside, rather than vice versa.  This means some kind of scoops are necessary, to direct that clean air from the side over the rads.

My bike, a spectacular Superhawk  , passes air from the 'outside' to the outside, kinda, as does the RC51. The bodywork is designed to take the airstream from the front and channel it out to the sides using the negative pressure created by the fairing (and a fan when stationary). It seems to me - and others have stated also - that the scoops scoop incoming air and channel it, eventually, onto the motor or rider's legs. (Owners, whattya you say?) Looking at the scoops, it seems to be the only possible outlet for the exiting air. It doesn't make sense to me.

As for the looks of the pods, I never liked them too much, but I also have seen many products that come out with a new design aesthetic that at first is off putting, but is intended to distinguish it from the field (like what is described in the BMW 1000RR review just posted). Maybe the pod design would have 'grown on people' if they made sense from an engineering POV.   And the bike was a great performer from the get go.

[Kootenanny]

My bike, a spectacular Superhawk  , passes air from the 'outside' to the outside, kinda, as does the RC51. The bodywork is designed to take the airstream from the front and channel it out to the sides using the negative pressure created by the fairing (and a fan when stationary). It seems to me - and others have stated also - that the scoops scoop incoming air and channel it, eventually, onto the motor or rider's legs. (Owners, whattya you say?) Looking at the scoops, it seems to be the only possible outlet for the exiting air. It doesn't make sense to me.

The Superhawk, RC51, and every other bike I'm aware of with side-mounted radiators takes air from the inside (of the frame) and passes it to the outside.  Yes, a low pressure zone caused by the fairing moving through the airstream might help move the air through and out--right into the area of your knees.  Buell's design puts air scoops out into the "wind" to either side, and uses the positive pressure of "ram air" to force the air through the radiators towards the engine, "inside" the frame.  It is intended to exit onto the rear wheel, undder the seat, although some hot air might make it out around your thighs (keep in mind, any bike with a front-mounted radiator also passes hot air into the area around the engine "inside" the frame, so in that respect Buell's design is actually pretty common).

There are advantages and disadvantages to either system.  

And Brad, yes I've seen 1125Rs up close and in person, and the design doesn't bother me.  I don't think the bike is as beautiful as, say, a 916, or even my own Firebolt...but I don't find it offensive the way you seem to, and if I had the bux, I might be buying an 1125CR right now.

And one question for you...if the 1125R really was the nail in the coffin, and Erik really such a poor businessman, how do you explain Tpoppa's post showing that not only did Buell grow by more than 60% over the past 6 years, or the large spike in sales in 2008 once the 1125R was readily available?

Even with a weak dealer network & questionable marketing, Buell managed to grow:

..........Buell........Harley. These are bikes sales $$ x 1000
2003 * 76,064 * 3,621,488
2004 * 79,029 * 3,928,232
2005 * 93,069 * 4,183,515
2006 * 102,227 * 4,553,561
2007 * 100,534 * 4,446,637
2008 * 123,086 * 4,278,241

Over these years Buell had 61.8% growth, HD had 18.1% growth.

[SuperHans]

Anyone ever take a look at a V-Rod? I find it interesting that is shares a common feature with the 1125, side pods. They are not quite as pronounced as the Buell, but both bikes have this in common.

[st ryder]

One thing: the split rads on the Buell were different from any others I've ever seen on a motorycle, in that they pass the air from the outside to the inside, rather than vice versa.  This means some kind of scoops are necessary, to direct that clean air from the side over the rads.

Granted, they might have made the pods look better.  However, I didn't mind the looks, so I don't really understand what all the fuss from you (and far more especially, Brad) is all about.  Maybe I'm clueless about aesthetic design (never mind the awards I've won for my visual artwork).

I personally find the pods an affront to the spirit of motorcycle design and all things that are created with even a modicum of pleasing lines in mind. My first reaction, keep in mind I put a lot of stock in first impressions, was "WTF(!) were they thinking??!!! Are they E-fing serious with those things!" Function over form has limits, and this design was clearly out of bounds, *IMO*. Show me another sport bike with a design that is so outrageously out of proportion, that makes such a poor attempt at looking integrated aerodynamically. Sure, there are plenty of other sport bikes that I find unattractive, like the '09 R1 as example, ( I don't want to mention the new Multi Strada which is hideous IMO) but at least they tried to make it look good. I could have done a better job and I don't have any awards for visual art, and I'm sure you could have too. To this day I don't  know how on this green earth anybody with any sense, common or otherwise would have thought that style would catch on. It will live in infamy and ignobly for decades to come IMO. No disrespect meant to anybody who owns one. I understand they are great bikes to ride.  

I think a large part of my discontent with this bike is that it was a huge let down. Here's the bike every Buellista and Buell watcher was waiting for, and it looks like absolute crap: I agree; it was the harbinger of Buell's demise. As I mentioned earlier, if the bike was introduced looking like the Barracuda, ie same frame, same brakes, same engine, same underslung exhaust, I feel Buell would still be a viable company. Those sales figures do not show you which Buell models were selling. My guess is the sales increase was not attributable to the 1125r, but more likely the Ulysses, and a/c models, which if I read right, were not being as deeply discounted as the 1125 bikes.

I wish Erik Buell well. Maybe he will have learned something about the relationship between aesthetics and sales instead of "ruthless engineering." He wanted ruthlessness, he got it.    

[Brad1445]

Anyone ever take a look at a V-Rod? I find it interesting that is shares a common feature with the 1125, side pods. They are not quite as pronounced as the Buell, but both bikes have this in common.

Many bikes have side pods, but they are designed into the bike.  Not on top of.

[Brad1445]

And one question for you...if the 1125R really was the nail in the coffin, and Erik really such a poor businessman, how do you explain Tpoppa's post showing that not only did Buell grow by more than 60% over the past 6 years, or the large spike in sales in 2008 once the 1125R was readily available?

When Dodge introduced the new truck with the fenders their sales went up 100%, its easy to see the large percentages when you have small numbers.


Is buell counting the ones delivered to dealers are the ones really sold to customers?

[Tyrroneous]

Anyone ever take a look at a V-Rod? I find it interesting that is shares a common feature with the 1125, side pods. They are not quite as pronounced as the Buell, but both bikes have this in common.

Side pods on a V Rod?  I don't see 'em.  


Besides, a V Rod's radiator is front and center, unlike the 1125's, so a V Rod doesn't need the side pods for cooling air.

[kevin_stevens]

Y'all need to look at more bikes with riders on them.

KeS

[SuperHans]

Side pods on a V Rod?  I don't see 'em.  

Then you're not looking. I see them plain as day. Hell, they slathered them in chrome. Look just as shitty as the 1125 IMO.

Besides, a V Rod's radiator is front and center, unlike the 1125's, so a V Rod doesn't need the side pods for cooling air.

If that's the case why did they put them on the V-Rod? I remember seeing a documentary about making the V-Rod and they went into detail the issues they had to overcome in designing the pods.

[chornbe]

That's just a cowling around the radiator.

I see what you're saying... I probably wouldn't classify them as "pods".

[st ryder]

Then you're not looking. I see them plain as day. Hell, they slathered them in chrome. Look just as shitty as the 1125 IMO.





If that's the case why did they put them on the V-Rod? I remember seeing a documentary about making the V-Rod and they went into detail the issues they had to overcome in designing the pods.

Pods contain something. Scoops direct air flow. Those are air scoops.  

[2DFlyer]

Pods contain something. Scoops direct air flow. Those are air scoops.  

Yep.  They're directing air across the core.  If I remember right the thing the Discovery documentary detailed was the turbulator (?) development that dirtied up the air so it could actually pick up some heat as it went through.  Apparently is was moving too cleanly ie quickly through the core to pick up any heat.

[Brad1445]

Yep.  They're directing air across the core.  If I remember right the thing the Discovery documentary detailed was the turbulator (?) development that dirtied up the air so it could actually pick up some heat as it went through.  Apparently is was moving too cleanly ie quickly through the core to pick up any heat.

Thats what happens if you incorporate the scoop into the overall bikes design. They should have just been slapped on the side and made the biggest part of the bike

[st ryder]

Yep.  They're directing air across the core.  If I remember right the thing the Discovery documentary detailed was the turbulator (?) development that dirtied up the air so it could actually pick up some heat as it went through.  Apparently is was moving too cleanly ie quickly through the core to pick up any heat.

Same idea as vortex generators on air plane wings, ie break-up the slip stream, and why polishing ports has fallen out of performance tuning favour.  

[ninegear]

that buell was good looking. too bad it will never be sold.

there was talk in another website about a new HD sportbike. i forget wich site though. i think it was in the coments section of kneeslider. i remember the guy saying he raced the vr1000s and and harley like to screw people over. it was related to erik buell racing.

[Oilhed]

Buell shoulda just had side mounted radiators like Honda uses - no pods!

[Brad1445]

Buell shoulda just had side mounted radiators like Honda uses - no pods!

+1

[ninegear]

Buell shoulda just had side mounted radiators like Honda uses - no pods!

maybe a little something like what roehr uses

[whodom]

Buell shoulda just had side mounted radiators like Honda uses - no pods!

And the first time someone dropped one and had to spend $500 on a replacement radiator instead of ~$50 for a replacement pod everyone would be raising hell about incompetent Buell is for putting the radiators there.  

[Brad1445]

what ever sticks out the farthest is going to take the hit,  Bragging because pods take the hit is not a good thing when most people do not drop their bikes and sexy out sales odd everyday of the week.

Speaking for myself I always imagined when they released a water cooled bike it would look sexy.  Its worth the risk.

[st ryder]

And the first time someone dropped one and had to spend $500 on a replacement radiator instead of ~$50 for a replacement pod everyone would be raising hell about incompetent Buell is for putting the radiators there.  

How does the pod, which is part body panel, save the rad from damage in a low side, or a simple drop, ie bike lands on its side and stays there, any beter than a full side panel, on say a VFR? Sure, the damage repair costs would be more to replace a full body panel as opposed to a pod panel, but I can't see that the radiator is any better protected under a pod than a panel.  

[Tpoppa]

How does the pod, which is part body panel, save the rad from damage in a low side, or a simple drop, ie bike lands on its side and stays there, any beter than a full side panel, on say a VFR? Sure, the damage repair costs would be more to replace a full body panel as opposed to a pod panel, but I can't see that the radiator is any better protected under a pod than a panel.  

It's spring mounted, and designed to be sort of a slider.  It's explained somewhere on the Buell site.  Replacements are about 50 bucks.  There are also sliders built into the engine cases.

[Brad1445]

They also reduce theft,











and sales.......

[fast2win]

Brad coming from a guy who rides a busa I can take your styling insults to the 1125r with a grain of salt. When you peel the sticker's off of most jap bike's even the guy's who know bike's have a hard time telling them apart. That's not the case with Buell's. To state fi problem's on bike's that were pre production, and the press was well aware of that is just a silly reason not to buy, as we all know there are many bike's that have updates to their fi over the course of many years.The fact's are the bike did help sale's and won an AMA title(DSB) it's 1st year in AMA, and on 2 outings in superbike it placed 7th and I think 10/11th. And the argument about cc advantage doesn't wash either. Its a power to weight class,And a whole different argument . As cool as the internet is for info. it also has a lot of misinform. Working in the industry for over 10 yrs. I heard more than my share of problem's with bike's that just didn't exist or were only representative of a very small percentage of bike's. Even your beloved busa had it's share of problem's when 1st launched, styling being one of them. Buell was on the verge of becoming a force to reckoned with in racing and the mothership aborts, not selling doesn't make sense and I don't buy that it was too integrated BS.

[Brad1445]

Brad coming from a guy who rides a busa I can take your styling insults to the 1125r with a grain of salt. When you peel the sticker's off of most jap bike's even the guy's who know bike's have a hard time telling them apart. That's not the case with Buell's. To state fi problem's on bike's that were pre production, and the press was well aware of that is just a silly reason not to buy, as we all know there are many bike's that have updates to their fi over the course of many years.The fact's are the bike did help sale's and won an AMA title(DSB) it's 1st year in AMA, and on 2 outings in superbike it placed 7th and I think 10/11th. And the argument about cc advantage doesn't wash either. Its a power to weight class,And a whole different argument . As cool as the internet is for info. it also has a lot of misinform. Working in the industry for over 10 yrs. I heard more than my share of problem's with bike's that just didn't exist or were only representative of a very small percentage of bike's. Even your beloved busa had it's share of problem's when 1st launched, styling being one of them. Buell was on the verge of becoming a force to reckoned with in racing and the mothership aborts, not selling doesn't make sense and I don't buy that it was too integrated BS.

Thats your first post huh..  How many sock puppets does this place need.

1. I'm the first to mention Busa's are ugly. I don't edit reality.  I will also say the Busa ugly has a purpose designs at one time with a purpose.  The 125 was half 5year old air cooled parts with a few quick add ons to accommodate water.

2. I guess the Japanese bikes do look all alike in one way.  They are still in business.  To say they look alike physically shows lack of attention to detail and clear product branding.  Do all cars look alike to you?  An enthusiast knows the difference a mile away.

3. Pre-production problems???????  Catch up on the news hand puppet. therbikers.com/buell/messages/290431/290431.html?1198049247

4. Race wins, congratulations to the brand loyal that do what ever it takes "duct tape" and all to run with 600cc bikes.

Ruthless