2011 Buell 1125RR?

[Tpoppa]

The question is why was Harley not insisting on quality control, Harley should have fired most of the top Buell management in 2008.  Thats where Harley failed, letting a branch of the company run around unchecked.

Harley could sue Erik for destroying the company it invested so heavily in but I don't think you can sue your own employees because your supposed to manage them.  Thats is Harley Failure, letting Buell go Rouge on Harley's dime.

Interesting theory.  Wrong, but interesting nonetheless.

Everyone likes to Harley bash.  Tough to grow leaps and bounds when you already own the market.  Easy to double your numbers when you sell such small numbers.  

This is not brain science

Is this what you ar trying to say?  If so, you are correct on this point, and it was percieved as a threat by some execs at HD.

[Tpoppa]

People are starting to ask the right questions.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/11/19/harley-davidson-and-buell-unfinished-business/

[Brad1445]

People are starting to ask the right questions.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2009/11/19/harley-davidson-and-buell-unfinished-business/

Starting?


No the buell customers have been waiting years for that bike, that why the shock of the 1125.

[Tpoppa]

Yes, starting to ask th right questions about the Buell closure.  The reasons were more personal than financial.

I'm glad you enjoyed your XBs.  They are fine bikes, I've owned 2 myself.  Out of curiousity, have you owned or had any significant seat time on an 1125?  With the latest ECM calibrations, the fueling is as good as or better than my CBR600F4i.  This is impressive for 2 reasons:  The larger the cylinder, the harder it is to achieve smooth fueling (ask Ducati or BMW about that), and the 1125 was designed under stricter EPA regulations than the F4i.  

The Helicon delivers gobs of linear power and pulls extremely hard.  4th gear power wheelies (no clutch) are possible, I found this out when easily pulling away from an 08 GSXR600 on a desolate stretch of county backroad.  The motor is amazingly strong.

The 1125 handling is impeccable.  It's not quite as flickable as an XB on very tight technical roads (something the XBs do exceedingly well) due to the slightly longer wheelbase.  But the longer wheelbase is needed for stability due to the higher speeds achieved by the 1125 (170ish indicated).  It's the best handling bike of the 20 or so that I've owned, and the many more I've ridden.    

Say what you will about the styling.   The fairing and pods just plain work.  Wind protection is among the best of any sportbike.  The 1125 runs a few degrees cooler than my F4i, so the pods must work especially when you consider that a big twin generates more heat than a 600 I4.

So there you have it, the styling is clearly function over form.  Admittedly, this doesn't satisfy everyones motorcycle preferences.  However, the overwhelming majority of 1125 owners are thrilled with their bikes.

It's interesting that you mention KTM when KTMs styling is easily as divisive as Buells.

 

[chornbe]

It would take too many years and marketing dollars to try and reverse the damage the 1125 caused.
The Buell name is now associated as a problem plagued  $5,000 crappy ugly, poorly built bike.

 

The 1125 is actually the last thing I think about when I hear Buell.

Everyone views him, the company and the bikes from different perspectives.

[st ryder]

Yes, starting to ask th right questions about the Buell closure.  The reasons were more personal than financial.

I'm glad you enjoyed your XBs.  They are fine bikes, I've owned 2 myself.  Out of curiousity, have you owned or had any significant seat time on an 1125?  With the latest ECM calibrations, the fueling is as good as or better than my CBR600F4i.  This is impressive for 2 reasons:  The larger the cylinder, the harder it is to achieve smooth fueling (ask Ducati or BMW about that), and the 1125 was designed under stricter EPA regulations than the F4i.  

The Helicon delivers gobs of linear power and pulls extremely hard.  4th gear power wheelies (no clutch) are possible, I found this out when easily pulling away from an 08 GSXR600 on a desolate stretch of county backroad.  The motor is amazingly strong.

The 1125 handling is impeccable.  It's not quite as flickable as an XB on very tight technical roads (something the XBs do exceedingly well) due to the slightly longer wheelbase.  But the longer wheelbase is needed for stability due to the higher speeds achieved by the 1125 (170ish indicated).  It's the best handling bike of the 20 or so that I've owned, and the many more I've ridden.    

Say what you will about the styling.   The fairing and pods just plain work.  Wind protection is among the best of any sportbike.  The 1125 runs a few degrees cooler than my F4i, so the pods must work especially when you consider that a big twin generates more heat than a 600 I4.

So there you have it, the styling is clearly function over form.  Admittedly, this doesn't satisfy everyones motorcycle preferences.  However, the overwhelming majority of 1125 owners are thrilled with their bikes.

It's interesting that you mention KTM when KTMs styling is easily as divisive as Buells.

 

Would this thread, or any number of other threads re Buell and the 1125r even be happening had the bike come out looking like the Barracuda? You seek to diminish the effect its looks, ie the pods, had on prospective buyers. I am not convinced the pods can "claim" asylum from the criticism that has plagued them since introduction under "function over form" styling, as split rads have been done to look a lot better than that, and in this case, they could also have *easily* been made to look better as well, which I'm thinking is what the optional lower fairing kit offered later on speaks to. It was badly styled by people who were out of touch with "reality" IMO, and *if* there *is* more to the Buell closure than finances, ie personal vendetta, then one might think it's HD "getting even" with the people who introduced such a gross looking bike to be sold in HD dealerships. Considering the emphasis HD puts on styling, one might also reasonably conclude the pods themselves were a slap in the face to HD. I cannot buy into the concept that they were products of *any* HD designer, or that they met the approval of HD design team. The V-rod for example, has a *functional* rad, and yet much effort and discussion was put into how it looks on the bike. Sorry, but it doesn't matter how well the 1125r handles, it's butt ugly to the *vast majority* of people who look at it, but unlike the Multi-Strada and GS and even the Busa as examples, the questionable looks of those bikes could not dampen the enthusiasm of the throngs of faithful owners and wanna be buyers. Buell did not have such similar throngs to save a bad design from itself because they were always too busy being "different in everyway." Well, that the Barracuda even exists shows that at least they were becoming a big enough company to change their approach in order to increase sales, in other words, to admit they were wrong. Too little too late. If Buell *is* sold to a group of investors, do you *really* think for one moment they would bring the 1125 bikes back the way they looked? Not a chance IMO.  

[Brad1445]

Would this thread, or any number of other threads re Buell and the 1125r even be happening had the bike come out looking like the Barracuda? You seek to diminish the effect its looks, ie the pods, had on prospective buyers. I am not convinced the pods can "claim" asylum from the criticism that has plagued them since introduction under "function over form" styling, as split rads have been done to look a lot better than that, and in this case, they could also have *easily* been made to look better as well, which I'm thinking is what the optional lower fairing kit offered later on speaks to. It was badly styled by people who were out of touch with "reality" IMO, and *if* there *is* more to the Buell closure than finances, ie personal vendetta, then one might think it's HD "getting even" with the people who introduced such a gross looking bike to be sold in HD dealerships. Considering the emphasis HD puts on styling, one might also reasonably conclude the pods themselves were a slap in the face to HD. I cannot buy into the concept that they were products of *any* HD designer, or that they met the approval of HD design team. The V-rod for example, has a *functional* rad, and yet much effort and discussion was put into how it looks on the bike. Sorry, but it doesn't matter how well the 1125r handles, it's butt ugly to the *vast majority* of people who look at it, but unlike the Multi-Strada and GS and even the Busa as examples, the questionable looks of those bikes could not dampen the enthusiasm of the throngs of faithful owners and wanna be buyers. Buell did not have such similar throngs to save a bad design from itself because they were always too busy being "different in everyway." Well, that the Barracuda even exists shows that at least they were becoming a big enough company to change their approach in order to increase sales, in other words, to admit they were wrong. Too little too late. If Buell *is* sold to a group of investors, do you *really* think for one moment they would bring the 1125 bikes back the way they looked? Not a chance IMO.  

Good Post.


Having customers wanting your product is kind of important!

[Kootenanny]

...I am not convinced the pods can "claim" asylum from the criticism that has plagued them since introduction under "function over form" styling, as split rads have been done to look a lot better than that, and in this case, they could also have *easily* been made to look better as well, which I'm thinking is what the optional lower fairing kit offered later on speaks to.

One thing: the split rads on the Buell were different from any others I've ever seen on a motorycle, in that they pass the air from the outside to the inside, rather than vice versa.  This means some kind of scoops are necessary, to direct that clean air from the side over the rads.

Granted, they might have made the pods look better.  However, I didn't mind the looks, so I don't really understand what all the fuss from you (and far more especially, Brad) is all about.  Maybe I'm clueless about aesthetic design (never mind the awards I've won for my visual artwork).

[Brad1445]

One thing: the split rads on the Buell were different from any others I've ever seen on a motorycle, in that they pass the air from the outside to the inside, rather than vice versa.  This means some kind of scoops are necessary, to direct that clean air from the side over the rads.

Granted, they might have made the pods look better.  However, I didn't mind the looks, so I don't really understand what all the fuss from you (and far more especially, Brad) is all about.  Maybe I'm clueless about aesthetic design (never mind the awards I've won for my visual artwork).

you really think
The proportions fit the design?
The Pods lines fit the overall design?
The naked concept is consistent?

The way they were implemented made them a focal point. Maybe it was intentional, but is by no measure matches the ret of the bike.  Maybe because most of it was designed for a 2003 model Naked Buell.  Do we want to talk about the top fairing as design?

[Castaway]

One thing: the split rads on the Buell were different from any others I've ever seen on a motorycle, in that they pass the air from the outside to the inside, rather than vice versa.  This means some kind of scoops are necessary, to direct that clean air from the side over the rads.

My bike, a spectacular Superhawk  , passes air from the 'outside' to the outside, kinda, as does the RC51. The bodywork is designed to take the airstream from the front and channel it out to the sides using the negative pressure created by the fairing (and a fan when stationary). It seems to me - and others have stated also - that the scoops scoop incoming air and channel it, eventually, onto the motor or rider's legs. (Owners, whattya you say?) Looking at the scoops, it seems to be the only possible outlet for the exiting air. It doesn't make sense to me.

As for the looks of the pods, I never liked them too much, but I also have seen many products that come out with a new design aesthetic that at first is off putting, but is intended to distinguish it from the field (like what is described in the BMW 1000RR review just posted). Maybe the pod design would have 'grown on people' if they made sense from an engineering POV.   And the bike was a great performer from the get go.

[Kootenanny]

My bike, a spectacular Superhawk  , passes air from the 'outside' to the outside, kinda, as does the RC51. The bodywork is designed to take the airstream from the front and channel it out to the sides using the negative pressure created by the fairing (and a fan when stationary). It seems to me - and others have stated also - that the scoops scoop incoming air and channel it, eventually, onto the motor or rider's legs. (Owners, whattya you say?) Looking at the scoops, it seems to be the only possible outlet for the exiting air. It doesn't make sense to me.

The Superhawk, RC51, and every other bike I'm aware of with side-mounted radiators takes air from the inside (of the frame) and passes it to the outside.  Yes, a low pressure zone caused by the fairing moving through the airstream might help move the air through and out--right into the area of your knees.  Buell's design puts air scoops out into the "wind" to either side, and uses the positive pressure of "ram air" to force the air through the radiators towards the engine, "inside" the frame.  It is intended to exit onto the rear wheel, undder the seat, although some hot air might make it out around your thighs (keep in mind, any bike with a front-mounted radiator also passes hot air into the area around the engine "inside" the frame, so in that respect Buell's design is actually pretty common).

There are advantages and disadvantages to either system.  

And Brad, yes I've seen 1125Rs up close and in person, and the design doesn't bother me.  I don't think the bike is as beautiful as, say, a 916, or even my own Firebolt...but I don't find it offensive the way you seem to, and if I had the bux, I might be buying an 1125CR right now.

And one question for you...if the 1125R really was the nail in the coffin, and Erik really such a poor businessman, how do you explain Tpoppa's post showing that not only did Buell grow by more than 60% over the past 6 years, or the large spike in sales in 2008 once the 1125R was readily available?

Even with a weak dealer network & questionable marketing, Buell managed to grow:

..........Buell........Harley. These are bikes sales $$ x 1000
2003 * 76,064 * 3,621,488
2004 * 79,029 * 3,928,232
2005 * 93,069 * 4,183,515
2006 * 102,227 * 4,553,561
2007 * 100,534 * 4,446,637
2008 * 123,086 * 4,278,241

Over these years Buell had 61.8% growth, HD had 18.1% growth.

[SuperHans]

Anyone ever take a look at a V-Rod? I find it interesting that is shares a common feature with the 1125, side pods. They are not quite as pronounced as the Buell, but both bikes have this in common.

[st ryder]

One thing: the split rads on the Buell were different from any others I've ever seen on a motorycle, in that they pass the air from the outside to the inside, rather than vice versa.  This means some kind of scoops are necessary, to direct that clean air from the side over the rads.

Granted, they might have made the pods look better.  However, I didn't mind the looks, so I don't really understand what all the fuss from you (and far more especially, Brad) is all about.  Maybe I'm clueless about aesthetic design (never mind the awards I've won for my visual artwork).

I personally find the pods an affront to the spirit of motorcycle design and all things that are created with even a modicum of pleasing lines in mind. My first reaction, keep in mind I put a lot of stock in first impressions, was "WTF(!) were they thinking??!!! Are they E-fing serious with those things!" Function over form has limits, and this design was clearly out of bounds, *IMO*. Show me another sport bike with a design that is so outrageously out of proportion, that makes such a poor attempt at looking integrated aerodynamically. Sure, there are plenty of other sport bikes that I find unattractive, like the '09 R1 as example, ( I don't want to mention the new Multi Strada which is hideous IMO) but at least they tried to make it look good. I could have done a better job and I don't have any awards for visual art, and I'm sure you could have too. To this day I don't  know how on this green earth anybody with any sense, common or otherwise would have thought that style would catch on. It will live in infamy and ignobly for decades to come IMO. No disrespect meant to anybody who owns one. I understand they are great bikes to ride.  

I think a large part of my discontent with this bike is that it was a huge let down. Here's the bike every Buellista and Buell watcher was waiting for, and it looks like absolute crap: I agree; it was the harbinger of Buell's demise. As I mentioned earlier, if the bike was introduced looking like the Barracuda, ie same frame, same brakes, same engine, same underslung exhaust, I feel Buell would still be a viable company. Those sales figures do not show you which Buell models were selling. My guess is the sales increase was not attributable to the 1125r, but more likely the Ulysses, and a/c models, which if I read right, were not being as deeply discounted as the 1125 bikes.

I wish Erik Buell well. Maybe he will have learned something about the relationship between aesthetics and sales instead of "ruthless engineering." He wanted ruthlessness, he got it.    

[Brad1445]

Anyone ever take a look at a V-Rod? I find it interesting that is shares a common feature with the 1125, side pods. They are not quite as pronounced as the Buell, but both bikes have this in common.

Many bikes have side pods, but they are designed into the bike.  Not on top of.

[Brad1445]

And one question for you...if the 1125R really was the nail in the coffin, and Erik really such a poor businessman, how do you explain Tpoppa's post showing that not only did Buell grow by more than 60% over the past 6 years, or the large spike in sales in 2008 once the 1125R was readily available?

When Dodge introduced the new truck with the fenders their sales went up 100%, its easy to see the large percentages when you have small numbers.


Is buell counting the ones delivered to dealers are the ones really sold to customers?

[Tyrroneous]

Anyone ever take a look at a V-Rod? I find it interesting that is shares a common feature with the 1125, side pods. They are not quite as pronounced as the Buell, but both bikes have this in common.

Side pods on a V Rod?  I don't see 'em.  


Besides, a V Rod's radiator is front and center, unlike the 1125's, so a V Rod doesn't need the side pods for cooling air.

[kevin_stevens]

Y'all need to look at more bikes with riders on them.

KeS

[SuperHans]

Side pods on a V Rod?  I don't see 'em.  

Then you're not looking. I see them plain as day. Hell, they slathered them in chrome. Look just as shitty as the 1125 IMO.

Besides, a V Rod's radiator is front and center, unlike the 1125's, so a V Rod doesn't need the side pods for cooling air.

If that's the case why did they put them on the V-Rod? I remember seeing a documentary about making the V-Rod and they went into detail the issues they had to overcome in designing the pods.

[chornbe]

That's just a cowling around the radiator.

I see what you're saying... I probably wouldn't classify them as "pods".

[st ryder]

Then you're not looking. I see them plain as day. Hell, they slathered them in chrome. Look just as shitty as the 1125 IMO.





If that's the case why did they put them on the V-Rod? I remember seeing a documentary about making the V-Rod and they went into detail the issues they had to overcome in designing the pods.

Pods contain something. Scoops direct air flow. Those are air scoops.