Hell for Leather Selling "Free Erik Buell" T-Shirts

[Schneegz]

Get yours while supplies last!  

 

[Brad1445]

Get yours while supplies last!  

 

The price is right, FREE.

[falconati]

SELLING.  

[Mastros2]

$26-$28?  No thanks! Cut that price by 1/3 and I'll get one and add it to the funny t-shirt bin!

[falconati]

$26-$28?  No thanks! Cut that price by 1/3 and I'll get one and add it to the funny t-shirt bin!

Just wait until they have t-shirt blowout pricing  

[Brad1445]

Erik can quit anytime he wants.  If he quit 4 years ago we may still have American sport bikes.  Time for new/younger blood.



Erik is free already because there is no laws against being a bad business manager.

[Tpoppa]

Erik can quit anytime he wants.  If he quit 4 years ago we may still have American sport bikes.  Time for new/younger blood.



Erik is free already because there is no laws against being a bad business manager.

Let's see if I can summarize this...

Brad goes a Badweb (a pro-Buell forum), and declares "this is crap, that is crap, styling, blah blah blah."  Not only was Brad's genius not immediately recognized.  He wasn't even declared leader or spokesman    To make matters worse, most of the folks thought he was kind of an idiot.  

The administrator of BWB, who is known to not be tolerant of Buell bashing, amazingly, wasn't tolerant of Brad's Buell bashing    Brad was deemed a troll, or something to that effect.  This was understanably a significant blow to a genuis of Brad's caliber.  He was sent into a downward spiral of depression.  Now just a shell of the man he once was, he has taken on the noble life's mission of letting the world know that he doesn't like the fairing on the 1125R.  I like to think of him as a prophet.  

On October 15th, when the announcement was made that Buell would be closed, Brad was hopitalized for severe dehydration that occured after countless hours of patting himself on the back.  I was very worried, but I am happy to say that Brad overcame that adversity, and his message lives on.  


Admitting that you have a problem can be difficult, but I think it's time to let the healing begin. Do you need a hug  

Seriously dude, move on  

[falconati]

Let's see if I can summarize this...

Brad goes a Badweb (a pro-Buell forum), and declares "this is crap, that is crap, styling, blah blah blah."  Not only was Brad's genius not immediately recognized.  He wasn't even declared leader or spokesman    To make matters worse, most of the folks thought he was kind of an idiot.  

The administrator of BWB, who is known to not be tolerant of Buell bashing, amazingly, wasn't tolerant of Brad's Buell bashing    Brad was deemed a troll, or something to that effect.  This was understanably a significant blow to a genuis of Brad's caliber.  He was sent into a downward spiral of depression.  Now just a shell of the man he once was, he has taken on the noble life's mission of letting the world know that he doesn't like the fairing on the 1125R.  I like to think of him as a prophet.  


Admitting that you have a problem can be difficult, but I think it's time to let the healing begin. Do you need a hug  

Seriously dude, move on  

 Best 32nd post ever

[1KPerDay]

The shirt needs a colon after "free."

[Brad1445]

Let's see if I can summarize this...

Brad goes a Badweb (a pro-Buell forum), and declares "this is crap, that is crap, styling, blah blah blah."  

You don't know me.  I was on there for about 8 years.  Pre-1125 debacle I was surgery sweet and I jumped on those that did not give a fair shake.  I bought 5 new Buells during that time.

Think about the facts
- Years of post demonstrating how impressed I loved the Brand, same here look back.
- How does a person buy 5 bikes they hate?

- 1125 is 'introduced' bad press is everywhere, I'm in shock a company could be that stupid, said company is now out of business, go figure.

The introduction of a more capable engine in the worlds best handling bike sounds like a winning recipe. Rotax makes THE BEST engines in the world.

The bike is a total cluster because no one knows haw to convert english to metric and zero effort was given to design.  

How do you take two good thing and put them together in such a way that its unsalable until you drop the price to $5,000

Buell is a case to be studied in Collage Classrooms of how ego and greed to rush a bike to market failed. The  colors were chose from a losing fight victim.  And thats what they delivered a loser against its competitors.

They did that not me.

so weigh my many years as Buell loyalist and promotor

vs

my disappointment and astonishment of the death rattle 1125 D.O.A the bike that could have owned the market.

Yes, this bothers me.  As a country is this the best we can do? 1125?




pulease

[Tpoppa]

I was trying to be concise.  I can add more detail if you'd like.

[1KPerDay]

The shirt needs a colon after "free."

Nobody? *shrugs*

[DogBoy]

Nobody? *shrugs*

I thought you were talking to sagerat.

[Blunder]

With all these sockpuppets who knows to whom one is speaking?

[nomadmax]

$28 bucks for a t-shirt?  I have to say it's not surprising to see something with Buell on it that's more expensive than comparable units and gives no better performance.  

[Kootenanny]

Erik can quit anytime he wants.  If he quit 4 years ago we may still have American sport bikes.  Time for new/younger blood.



Erik is free already because there is no laws against being a bad business manager.

Hmmm...Erik Buell took a small startup motorcycle company and built it up to the point anyone around the world could walk into a dealer and buy one off the floor.  And he did this after nearly losing his shirt due to an AMA rule change.  If that's poor business management, I don't know what good management might look like.

Yes, the 1125R might have been a stumble.  Have you seen the pics floating around of the rumoured 2011 Buell? (hint: there's a thread on this board).  This was apparently in the works.  Brad, you've said you're in design and marketing...well, I'm in mechanical engineering, and lemme tell ya, product development is as simple as it might seem.  

Buell was making a profit.  Harley shut ''em down as part of an overall downsizing, a pure business move made soon after a new CEO--who doesn't even ride a motorycle, BTW--took the helm.  A shortsighted move from a guy who I don't think understands how the motorcycle market works (he came from Johnson Controls, a company whose products--no matter how good they might be--don't really inspire much passion).

[Brad1445]

 I'm in mechanical engineering, and lemme tell ya, product development is as simple as it might seem.  

I'm sure your right on that point.

So why did they release the bike before it was ready.  I think it has to do with the 25th anniversary of Buell.  That one single decision caused a lot of bad press.

The pics going around of the 2011 model, thats when it should have been released.

[whodom]

So why did they release the bike before it was ready.  I think it has to do with the 25th anniversary of Buell.  That one single decision caused a lot of bad press.

The pics going around of the 2011 model, thats when it should have been released.

And that's the thing NOBODY here really knows.  Was Buell under the gun from HD?  "If you don't have this new model on the street by 1 September 2007, we're closing you down!"  I'm sure BMC had tied up a lot of money investing in the Helicon design from Rotax.  They needed to start getting a payback on that investment as soon as possible.  Maybe simple economics drove them to release the bike when they did.  Maybe they used up all their XB profits designing the Helicon engine and didn't have a lot of cash laying around to pay a first-class industrial designer to come up with bodywork.  

I can think of a whole lot of reasons why that bike came out when it did looking like it did other than Erik Buell not listening to anyone else or having "ego" issues about his new bike.

[Kootenanny]

I'm sure your right on that point.

Thanks for letting me know about my typo.  Of course, I meant "isn't."

[Brad1445]

And that's the thing NOBODY here really knows.  Was Buell under the gun from HD?  "If you don't have this new model on the street by 1 September 2007, we're closing you down!"  I'm sure BMC had tied up a lot of money investing in the Helicon design from Rotax.  They needed to start getting a payback on that investment as soon as possible.  Maybe simple economics drove them to release the bike when they did.  Maybe they used up all their XB profits designing the Helicon engine and didn't have a lot of cash laying around to pay a first-class industrial designer to come up with bodywork.  

I can think of a whole lot of reasons why that bike came out when it did looking like it did other than Erik Buell not listening to anyone else or having "ego" issues about his new bike.

Blake Court and the Buell team that post under the name Anonymous seem very to the point that THEY were in control They got everything they wanted and the 1125R WAS THE LOOK THEY wanted, on purpose.

So were they lying?

Were Blake Court and team Buell lying to the public?

If Erik was a victim he should have not lied to the public and QUIT before allowing his name on not ready for prime time quickly put together not very tested 'bike'.

So he either  lies, or he sold his soul, either way that show lack of moral fiber.

[Tpoppa]

Blake Court and the Buell team that post under the name Anonymous seem very to the point that THEY were in control They got everything they wanted and the 1125R WAS THE LOOK THEY wanted, on purpose.

So were they lying?

Were Blake Court and team Buell lying to the public?

If Erik was a victim he should have not lied to the public and QUIT before allowing his name on not ready for prime time quickly put together not very tested 'bike'.

So he either  lies, or he sold his soul, either way that show lack of moral fiber.

Do you have any actual facts to support this claim of a 'lack of moral fiber.'  If not, I suspect that you have a lack of moral fiber.  

[Brad1445]

I see you follow each of my post.  
By the way I don't call people names.
YOu need not trust my word it available for all to read. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/



Since you follow me around here is some more information on me.
I was deeply in love/evolved with Buell for many years.  I know that site quite well  I even bought  2008 model Firebolt   after the 1125 intro to tie me over till the bugs ere worked out.  I sold my Bolt about 4 months before Buell was shut down as I could tell the future was not bright when it was clear the 2010 models were once again the same as the unsuccessful 2008.  

That foresight on my part saved me at least $2,300 in the bikes value from what I could now sell from now defunct Brand Name.

New Models for $5,000 kind of lowers all other years value in a wave.  

And since you and some others who never looked the Buell before the fall out know it was my favorite manufacture for many years.

[Tpoppa]

There is nothing on Badweb to support your wild 'moral fiber' claim.

I really couldn't care less about resale, as I won't be selling mine.  Resale is down for ALL used bikes right now, and it will rebound at some point.  Prices for used Buells will rebound as well as there is still demand and no more new bikes available.  A guy I ride with just bought a new 2008 CBR100RR for $6,600.  There are plenty of deals right now...bad news for sellers, good news for buyers  http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2008-HONDA-CBR1000RR-CBR-1000-RR-NEW_W0QQitemZ160379514423QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_motorcycles?hash=item25575d2e37

The mystery is still why HD will not sell Buell.  They are obviously hurting for cash as they just signed up for $562 million in gov't aid.
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/25november09_hdcreditarm.htm

btw, my first Buell was a 2003 that I bought new.

[Brad1445]

Your friend has a very cool bike.  Congratulate him on his smart choice.

Handsome bike.

[Tpoppa]

Are you aware that a significant % of CBR1000s have problems with oil consumption?  To the tune of 1qt per 1000 miles and Honda has largely ignored the problem.  http://www.1000rr.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51105

Also, starting with the 2001 model year the BMW R1150R (other BMW models were affected too) had fueling/surging issues that went unaddressed for 3 years unitl they switched to dual spark plug heads.  BMW was even nice enough to retrofit bikes to fix the issue at the CONSUMERS EXPENSE.

I'm sure that both of these are Erik Buell's fault and he personally owes Brad an explanation  

[Brad1445]

Are you aware that whiteout was invented by a house wide?

[Nodaclu]

Brad.....seriously.....


Let




It




Go


You have a major OCD issue. You need help. Am I'm not even remotely kidding.

[1KPerDay]

Brad's cool. He's just pissed that one of his favorite marques is going bye-bye. He has legitimate gripes.

[Tpoppa]

Brad is a troll.  Nothing more.

Trolling:  Being a prick on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because it's the internet and, hey, you can.  Trolling is the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet, generally on message boards.  Trolling is trying to get a rise out of someone. Forcing them to respond to you, either through wise-crackery, posting incorrect information, asking blatantly stupid questions, or other foolishness.

[st ryder]

Brad is a troll.  Nothing more.

Trolling:  Being a prick on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because it's the internet and, hey, you can.  Trolling is the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet, generally on message boards.  Trolling is trying to get a rise out of someone. Forcing them to respond to you, either through wise-crackery, posting incorrect information, asking blatantly stupid questions, or other foolishness.

You mean like this?  

Let's see if I can summarize this...

Brad goes a Badweb (a pro-Buell forum), and declares "this is crap, that is crap, styling, blah blah blah."  Not only was Brad's genius not immediately recognized.  He wasn't even declared leader or spokesman    To make matters worse, most of the folks thought he was kind of an idiot.  

The administrator of BWB, who is known to not be tolerant of Buell bashing, amazingly, wasn't tolerant of Brad's Buell bashing    Brad was deemed a troll, or something to that effect.  This was understanably a significant blow to a genuis of Brad's caliber.  He was sent into a downward spiral of depression.  Now just a shell of the man he once was, he has taken on the noble life's mission of letting the world know that he doesn't like the fairing on the 1125R.  I like to think of him as a prophet.  

On October 15th, when the announcement was made that Buell would be closed, Brad was hopitalized for severe dehydration that occured after countless hours of patting himself on the back.  I was very worried, but I am happy to say that Brad overcame that adversity, and his message lives on.  


Admitting that you have a problem can be difficult, but I think it's time to let the healing begin. Do you need a hug  

Seriously dude, move on  

[Tpoppa]

I forgot about that.  Thanks for reposting  

No.  Brad is a troll because despite being presented with facts, he continues his 'broken record' message.  Example:  Buell had NO marketing dept.  Marketing was 100% controled by HD & some of those HD execs are blatantly anti Buell/Sportbike.  Yet, over an over again, Brad blames maketing gaffs on Erik personally    

I asked Brad twice if he had spent any time on an 1125, he hasn't aswered.  I must conclude he hasn't.  Having such strong feelings with NO first hand experience is (I'll be nice) quite odd.

The 1125 was sent to market before the EFI was sorted (EFI has since been sorted quite well) by a company (HD) that places little importance on R&D.  Sending all new technology to market is nothing like a HD rollout, and HD couldn't recognize that.  Example:

1965 Harley Davidson FLH1200


2009 Harley Davidson Road King

[st ryder]

I forgot about that.  Thanks for reposting  

No.  Brad is a troll because despite being presented with facts, he continues his 'broken record' message.  Example:  Buell had NO marketing dept.  Marketing was 100% controled by HD & some of those HD execs are blatantly anti Buell/Sportbike.  Yet, over an over again, Brad blames maketing gaffs on Erik personally    

I asked Brad twice if he had spent any time on an 1125, he hasn't aswered.  I must conclude he hasn't.  Having such strong feelings with NO first hand experience is (I'll be nice) quite odd.

The 1125 was sent to market before the EFI was sorted (EFI has since been sorted quite well) by a company (HD) that places little importance on R&D.  Sending all new technology to market is nothing like a HD rollout, and HD couldn't recognize that.  Example:

1965 Harley Davidson FLH1200


2009 Harley Davidson Road King

Have you had any experience riding either of them?  

You make the same mistake as all other HD bashers, to confuse the way the bike looks with no technological progress. That's a beautiful looking machine with a winning sales record. Why mess with success? The 2009 bike accelerates, brakes and handles like a thoroughly modern cruiser. If you care to look at the "American" style V-twin cruiser segment, you'll find a plethora of imitators trying to get piece of that 1965 Duo Glide look/style. How many other bikes out there are trying to emulate the 1125R?    Wonder why?  

[Tpoppa]

Thanks for asking.  Yes, I have ridden more than enough Harleys to form an opinion.  To many, a 700lb bike with 60 hp doesn't represent technological advancement.

http://dalefranks.com/cycles/index.php/2009/08/a-rare-tactical-mistake-an-ongoing-strategic-problem/

Link fixed

[st ryder]

Thanks for asking.  Yes, I have ridden more than enough Harleys to form an opinion.  To many, a 700lb bike with 60 hp doesn't represent technological advancement.

The 2009 Road King with a TC 96 has much more power than 60 hp, and has the newest rigid frame making the handling on par with any other large touring bike like the GW and LT, clearance issues notwithstanding. If any one thing can be said about about HD fuel injected bikes it's that they run great. If all you can do is make statements based on out of date weight to horespower figures as somehow being representative of a lack of technological advancements, then I guess you have a narrow view of just what encompasses technological advancements. I think it's safe to say that between the performance of the RK's EFI and that of the 1125r when these bikes were introduced, Buell is not a poster child for technological advancement, if one equates technological advancements as "better." Considering HD outsold Buell by about, what?, a 1000:1 when costing probaby what? 30% more on average, I'd say those numbers speak for themselves about which is perceived by more than many as the more desirable bike to own, regardless of having a disadvantage in the weight to horepower figures.  

[Tpoppa]

I wasn't bashing HD.  My statement was that HD's strength isn't rolling out technology.

Find another manufacturer who has changed so little in 40 years.  The newest Bonneville comes to mind, but Triumph has more than proved their technological prowess.

Read the Dale Franks article...it's a good one.

[Schneegz]

So, if you were born in, say, 1980, Harley-Davidson has never been the Big Dog motorcycle.  It’s been a manufacturer of heavy, slow, low-performance cruisers.  You’ve grown up in a world of 150+HP superbikes–a world that did not exist when the boomers were young.  Younger riders have an entirely different mental impression of how the motorcycling world is put together.

Dale Franks, speaking truth to power!  

[Mastros2]

Brad's cool. He's just pissed that one of his favorite marques is going bye-bye. He has legitimate gripes.

Yes but a few times is good.  After that, it gets a little old.  

[Tpoppa]

The 2009 Road King with a TC 96 has much more power than 60 hp, and has the newest rigid frame making the handling on par with any other large touring bike like the GW and LT, clearance issues notwithstanding. If any one thing can be said about about HD fuel injected bikes it's that they run great. If all you can do is make statements based on out of date weight to horespower figures as somehow being representative of a lack of technological advancements, then I guess you have a narrow view of just what encompasses technological advancements.

Don't confuse marginal increases in displacement with technological advances.  

A stock TC 88 puts out 60-61 rwhp
A stock TC 96 puts out 68-69 rwhp
A stock SV650 @ 39 cubic inches, puts out about 70-71 rwhp.  Yes, I know the Harley motors make more torque.

[Brad1445]

Brad's cool. He's just pissed that one of his favorite marques is going bye-bye. He has legitimate gripes.

Thank you for the dose of reality.  You have seen by other side when I defended that brand to no end.  

If we don't stop and take note why america products do nor sell then we are close to zero manufacturing capability.  In WWII we could make tanks when needed right now most of our factories have been literally taken apart and shipped overseas.

Time for a HONESTY reality check before its too late. This was a softball we screwed up, thats whats scary.  Great handling bike, great engine manufacture and it turns to crap.

We need to get serious.

Its a true friend that tells you you have a booger on your nose not just glossing over it and saying how good you look today.

Honesty, thats true loyalty.

[Brad1445]

Yes but a few times is good.  After that, it gets a little old.  

Remember this is a Brand specific forum. Buell.

They are now defunct. "Buell"  Why?

Im fairly certain I was towards the top in brand Loyalty. both in purchases and evangelistic

I think it only fair to study the failures that forced the shutdown what was 3 years ago a very cool Bike Manufacture just needing an engine.


(dream sequence )
just needed an engine, just needed an engine, just needed an engine,  (dream sequence )

(start nightmare sounds track)

[Brad1445]

Brad is a troll.  Nothing more.

Trolling:  Being a prick .........

I easily have over 100,000 Buell miles on my butt.  I have always said they are the best handling bikes in the world.  I have praised the bikes for years.  

They come out with a failure and go out of business and I'm a troll for not understanding how they missed such a golden opportunity.

I have zero seat time on the 1125.  I have no doubt it handles well. I love v-twins thats why I have owned so many Ducati and Buells.  I said when the bike was introduced it had a street value of about $4,000.  Its reliability record and sales seemed to have proved me right.  I will never own one, whats the point, they are out of business and it seems to drive you crazy I could see the future of Buell in the face and quality of that bike.

I don't care for the name calling, it makes me feel like JR high.  Grow up.

[Tpoppa]

I have zero seat time on the 1125.  

   And there we have it.  After saying what a bad bike this is over & over & over & over.  You have NO first hand experience? Really?  Do you always let others make up your mind for you?  Especially such a strongly held criticism.  Your opinion is now officially meaningless.

As an owner, I can tell the handling and Helicon are impressive.  I am not seeing reliability issues.  I am realistic and am aware of the known issues, they are minor.  They have also already been addressed by the factory.  If you actually rode one...once you wiped the $hit eating grin off your face, I'd bet the pods wouldn't seem like an issue anymore.

I don't care for the name calling, it makes me feel like JR high.  Grow up.

I didn't write that.  It was the first definition I found.

[Brad1445]

I have added a new rule to my must have's for bike purchases.

1. The company must be in Business.

An adult like discussion on why the company is out of business could be of value. Why loyal customers like me we would not buy that bike may have some merit.

[STN Moderator]

I didn't write that.

You did write that.

Please consider the forum rules before making another post.  

[st ryder]

Don't confuse marginal increases in displacement with technological advances.  

A stock TC 88 puts out 60-61 rwhp
A stock TC 96 puts out 68-69 rwhp
A stock SV650 @ 39 cubic inches, puts out about 70-71 rwhp.  Yes, I know the Harley motors make more torque.

As I said, it seems you have a narrow view of what constitutes technological advancement, and you're stuck on HP per CC. I suggest there's more to it than that. I won't consider continuing to comapare a SV-650 with a HD BT cruiser. Believe what you like, but HD is a very technologically advanced bike. It doesn't look that way and that in itself is a huge accomplishment.  

[st ryder]

Dale Franks, speaking truth to power!  

Dale Franks speaks his opinion.

"Can you think of another brand where so little styling has changed in the past 44 years?"

I can think of a bevy of Japanese and American brands who have tried to copy this style of motorcycle for the last 20 years. What's his point? Perhaps he should have asked, "Can you think of another brand that has launched so many impostors because it looks as good as HD did 44 years ago?" Or how about iconic brands of other products? Does he feel the same way about Rolex, Aga, Zippo, Coke, Levis as examples?  

Since he then carries on about what HD should do, ie reach out to the youth market, I stopped reading: drivel like can be had for a dime a gross in any media you like. I think things go more like this: Youth, who are rebellious, identify with the "HD" freedom/bad boy biker image. They grow up and want a bike. Most can't afford HD as their first bike so they buy Japanese bikes, often starting with a cruiser, because it looks like a HD. Then they go on a bang for buck anti HD crusade for 10-15 years, probably getting into sport bikes along the way because they want to go faster. Then, after a few to many more bikes, they figure out motorcycling is not about bang for buck. Then they buy iconic brands like HD, and they come full circle, driven by their increasing discretionary budgets and need for personal growth. Maybe they're not boomers, but they have the same wants and needs.

He doesn't even mention women or that the recession has been a lot worse on men than women in terms of lay offs. If HD thought Sportsters would sell, who could blame them? They are easier for women to buy, and so many women who are into biking, prefer cruiser style bikes, and of the cruiser type bikes, they recognise HD is top of the heap, and many if not most aspire to purchase one. He focuses on aging boomers, keen, original insight  ,  but doesn't mention that there are a lot of boomers who have been riding rice burners, sport or cruisers, who will also gravitate to HD, ie the crossover market because they've always wanted one, and are still "in the wings" as it were.

Sorry, but he's just another HD basher with an opinion who like countless others likes to toll HD's death knell at any chance he gets, as though he knows better about marketing motorcycles with the benefit of hind sight, and of course, what easier way to cultivate your minions than to bash HD? MBA my ass.

It's the recession folks, that's it, that's all. It's not the product, or lack of planning. What bike was selling best in good times?  

[Brad1445]

Dale Franks speaks his opinion.

"Can you think of another brand where so little styling has changed in the past 44 years?"

I can think of a bevy of Japanese and American brands who have tried to copy this style of motorcycle for the last 20 years. What's his point? Perhaps he should have asked, "Can you think of another brand that has launched so many impostors because it looks as good as HD did 44 years ago?" Or how about iconic brands of other products? Does he feel the same way about Rolex, Aga, Zippo, Coke, Levis as examples?  

Since he then carries on about what HD should do, ie reach out to the youth market, I stopped reading: drivel like can be had for a dime a gross in any media you like. I think things go more like this: Youth, who are rebellious, identify with the "HD" freedom/bad boy biker image. They grow up and want a bike. Most can't afford HD as their first bike so they buy Japanese bikes, often starting with a cruiser, because it looks like a HD. Then they go on a bang for buck anti HD crusade for 10-15 years, probably getting into sport bikes along the way because they want to go faster. Then, after a few to many more bikes, they figure out motorcycling is not about bang for buck. Then they buy iconic brands like HD, and they come full circle, driven by their increasing discretionary budgets and need for personal growth. Maybe they're not boomers, but they have the same wants and needs.

He doesn't even mention women or that the recession has been a lot worse on men than women in terms of lay offs. If HD thought Sportsters would sell, who could blame them? They are easier for women to buy, and so many women who are into biking, prefer cruiser style bikes, and of the cruiser type bikes, they recognise HD is top of the heap, and many if not most aspire to purchase one. He focuses on aging boomers, keen, original insight  ,  but doesn't mention that there are a lot of boomers who have been riding rice burners, sport or cruisers, who will also gravitate to HD, ie the crossover market because they've always wanted one, and are still "in the wings" as it were.

Sorry, but he's just another HD basher with an opinion who like countless others likes to toll HD's death knell at any chance he gets, as though he knows better about marketing motorcycles with the benefit of hind sight, and of course, what easier way to cultivate your minions than to bash HD? MBA my ass.

It's the recession folks, that's it, that's all. It's not the product, or lack of planning. What bike was selling best in good times?  

Good post.

[Schneegz]

Dale Franks speaks his opinion.

"Can you think of another brand where so little styling has changed in the past 44 years?"

I can think of a bevy of Japanese and American brands who have tried to copy this style of motorcycle for the last 20 years. What's his point? Perhaps he should have asked, "Can you think of another brand that has launched so many impostors because it looks as good as HD did 44 years ago?" Or how about iconic brands of other products? Does he feel the same way about Rolex, Aga, Zippo, Coke, Levis as examples?  

Since he then carries on about what HD should do, ie reach out to the youth market, I stopped reading: drivel like can be had for a dime a gross in any media you like. I think things go more like this: Youth, who are rebellious, identify with the "HD" freedom/bad boy biker image. They grow up and want a bike. Most can't afford HD as their first bike so they buy Japanese bikes, often starting with a cruiser, because it looks like a HD. Then they go on a bang for buck anti HD crusade for 10-15 years, probably getting into sport bikes along the way because they want to go faster. Then, after a few to many more bikes, they figure out motorcycling is not about bang for buck. Then they buy iconic brands like HD, and they come full circle, driven by their increasing discretionary budgets and need for personal growth. Maybe they're not boomers, but they have the same wants and needs.

He doesn't even mention women or that the recession has been a lot worse on men than women in terms of lay offs. If HD thought Sportsters would sell, who could blame them? They are easier for women to buy, and so many women who are into biking, prefer cruiser style bikes, and of the cruiser type bikes, they recognise HD is top of the heap, and many if not most aspire to purchase one. He focuses on aging boomers, keen, original insight  ,  but doesn't mention that there are a lot of boomers who have been riding rice burners, sport or cruisers, who will also gravitate to HD, ie the crossover market because they've always wanted one, and are still "in the wings" as it were.

Sorry, but he's just another HD basher with an opinion who like countless others likes to toll HD's death knell at any chance he gets, as though he knows better about marketing motorcycles with the benefit of hind sight, and of course, what easier way to cultivate your minions than to bash HD? MBA my ass.

It's the recession folks, that's it, that's all. It's not the product, or lack of planning. What bike was selling best in good times?  

Yes, you're absolutely right.  Buell's demise is entirely due to a poor product while Harley's decline is entirely due to the recession, and not a poor product.

[Brad1445]

Yes, you're absolutely right.  Buell's demise is entirely due to a poor product while Harley's decline is entirely due to the recession, and not a poor product.

Harley business model and products have not changed, so its a good measurement of market forces.

Buell had a huge downturn in quality during an highly unsuccessful launch of an visually unpopular design. The press ate it up at introduction as its performance boarder lined on dangerous.

[Schneegz]

Harley business model and products have not changed, so its a good measurement of market forces.

Buell had a huge downturn in quality during an highly unsuccessful launch of an visually unpopular design. The press ate it up at introduction as its performance boarder lined on dangerous.

Compare Harley to other brands.  Most brands are hurting, but Harley is hurting much more than, say, Honda, Yamaha or BMW.  Some brands, like Triumph, have actually increased their profits.  

I'm not claiming that product is the only reason for Harley's troubles, but for you to claim that product has nothing to do with Harley's troubles is unrealistic.

[Brad1445]

I personally would admit that the Harley demographics are literary dying off.

Thats why I would like to see the XB technology Harley payed for re-sckinned and released as Harley sport bikes, same with the Ulysses etc.  Re skin then with updated styling and sell a full line of bikes just like Triumph did -  moving from just Cruisers to a full line of bikes.

[fast2win]

Buell had a huge downturn in quality during an highly unsuccessful launch of an visually unpopular design. The press ate it up at introduction as its performance boarder lined on dangerous     Brad , this is more your opinion than truth, based off the fact that you hate the styling of the 1125R, Dangerous come on huge downturn in quality says who. And I dont know you personally, but I have huge doubts that you have 100000 miles on Buells  in what 5yrs. time 25k per year while living in Denver? I might be wrong I just have huge doubts. The bashing of Erik too is based off your opinion of not liking the 1125R. in your opinion Buells closing seems to be the failure of what a fairly successful bike. Just beacuse you hate the styling.  I think I'll ask Danny Eslick how dangerous his DSB winning bike was, might get a more acurate assesment.                                                                                                              

[Brad1445]

and another puppet pops up, post #3


and yes, I average 40k per year.

[fast2win]

Prove it.  I still think your full of shit. And still all this over styling, and you ride a busa? And your rhetoric just gets worse 40k a year you might want to have your odo checked

[Schneegz]

I personally would admit that the Harley demographics are literary dying off.

Thats why I would like to see the XB technology Harley payed for re-sckinned and released as Harley sport bikes, same with the Ulysses etc.  Re skin then with updated styling and sell a full line of bikes just like Triumph did -  moving from just Cruisers to a full line of bikes.

And why is Harley's demographic dying off?  Or, more to the point, why do Harleys only appeal to a dying demographic?  Simple; because of the product.

As for Harley ever marketing a full line of bikes; good luck with that.  

[Brad1445]

Prove it.  I still think your full of shit. And still all this over styling, and you ride a busa? And your rhetoric just gets worse 40k a year you might want to have your odo checked

where are you guys coming from, The Buell unemployed?

[Tpoppa]

Name:  Brad1445
Custom Title:  Has a Large Member
Posts:  1734 (1.581 per day)
Position:  Contributor
Date Registered:  November 28, 2006, 12:55:58 am
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[Brad1445]

Name:  Brad1445
Custom Title:  Has a Large Member
Posts:  1734 (1.581 per day)
Position:  Contributor
Date Registered:  November 28, 2006, 12:55:58 am
Last Active:  Today at 06:06:24 pm
Ignored by: 14 members

I wish you would

[Tpoppa]

I wish you would

I bet you do.

[st ryder]

I'm not claiming that product is the only reason for Harley's troubles, but for you to claim that product has nothing to do with Harley's troubles is unrealistic.

Harley sold approx 250,000 bikes a year in the early to mid 2000's afaik. How can you say HD's problems have to do with the product and not the recession? The product is superb, and has a timeless iconic design/brand appeal.

*Everybody's* demographic is dying.  

Has anybody here worked with youths? I have in the past. They love HD's. Can't afford them, but love them. I've met young people with HD tattoos and no bike. I see young people with HD tee's and boot's and stickers on their cars, but no bike. I have adult children now, but when they were young, they loved HD. It didn't matter that dad use to tell them about how crappy HD's were, they ignored me utterly, and continued to love the brand/bike. In both my professional and personal experience with young people, I have found that they mostly love HD. I really don't know where the idea comes up that HD doesn't make products that appeal to young people, unless it's a urban legend perpetuated by HD bashers, who think they have the inside track on the reasons for HD's imminent demise.    

I can tell you with all certainty, that if you go and poll young people directly, say from ages 12 to 18, about which bike they'd rather own, ie a HD or a Buell, you'll probably be asked more often than not, "What's a Buell?"

[Brad1445]

Harley sold approx 250,000 bikes a year in the early to mid 2000's afaik. How can you say HD's problems have to do with the product and not the recession? The product is superb, and has a timeless iconic design/brand appeal.

*Everybody's* demographic is dying.  

Has anybody here worked with youths? I have in the past. They love HD's. Can't afford them, but love them. I've met young people with HD tattoos and no bike. I see young people with HD tee's and boot's and stickers on their cars, but no bike. I have adult children now, but when they were young, they loved HD. It didn't matter that dad use to tell them about how crappy HD's were, they ignored me utterly, and continued to love the brand/bike. In both my professional and personal experience with young people, I have found that they mostly love HD. I really don't know where the idea comes up that HD doesn't make products that appeal to young people, unless it's a urban legend perpetuated by HD bashers, who think they have the inside track on the reasons for HD's imminent demise.    

I can tell you with all certainty, that if you go and poll young people directly, say from ages 12 to 18, about which bike they'd rather own, ie a HD or a Buell, you'll probably be asked more often than not, "What's a Buell?"

Tru Tru

I never thought about it but your right there is a line of future owners out there.

[Tpoppa]

Harley sold approx 250,000 bikes a year in the early to mid 2000's afaik. How can you say HD's problems have to do with the product and not the recession? The product is superb, and has a timeless iconic design/brand appeal.

*Everybody's* demographic is dying.  

Has anybody here worked with youths? I have in the past. They love HD's. Can't afford them, but love them. I've met young people with HD tattoos and no bike. I see young people with HD tee's and boot's and stickers on their cars, but no bike. I have adult children now, but when they were young, they loved HD. It didn't matter that dad use to tell them about how crappy HD's were, they ignored me utterly, and continued to love the brand/bike. In both my professional and personal experience with young people, I have found that they mostly love HD. I really don't know where the idea comes up that HD doesn't make products that appeal to young people, unless it's a urban legend perpetuated by HD bashers, who think they have the inside track on the reasons for HD's imminent demise.    

I can tell you with all certainty, that if you go and poll young people directly, say from ages 12 to 18, about which bike they'd rather own, ie a HD or a Buell, you'll probably be asked more often than not, "What's a Buell?"

Interesting speculation, but even HD mgmt is aware that they have real concerns with an aging demographic.  Boomers are the group that see HD as an icon, and they are aging.  Why do you think HD is now building factory trikes?  There will always be younger folks that are interested in HD, but those numbers have diminished over the years.  This isn't just opinion.  HD mgmt know this, they have even published this information.

http://investor.harley-davidson.com/demographics.cfm?bmLocale=en_us

Median age increasing by 6 months every year, is ALARMING by industry standards.

I apologize for introducing facts into this discussion.

This is considered common knowledge by industry experts.
http://www.brandchannel.com/features_effect.asp?pf_id=55
"...However, there is no overstating the demographic challenges that the company faces going forward. The average age of a Harley rider is now 45 (ten years ago it was 37), and 20% of Harley riders are over 55. In spite of all the company's success in the past 18 years, Harley has had a difficult time attracting younger consumers, who tend to gravitate to the speedier, more technologically savvy racing bikes produced by Honda and Yamaha.

Underscoring Harley's dearth in the younger demographic is the fact that Honda recently usurped Harley in US sales; Honda is now not only the number one manufacturer globally, but it is currently the king of the prestigious US market largely because of its appeal to younger riders..."

[Tpoppa]

This message is echoed in many acticles by financial and motorcycle industry insiders.

http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/427624-beacon-asset-managers/13949-demographic-headwinds-hitting-harley-davidson

Specifically, Harley-Davidson has started to hit demographic–or “generational”–headwinds caused by its prime consumer base aging out of the market.  The average age of a Harley buyer is now about 47, an average that has been creeping higher by about six months per year for the past 20 years.  Meanwhile, the number of potential U.S. customers reaching this age has begun to drop, a drop that will accelerate to as much as one million per year by 2019, as the last of the Baby Boomers, and first 10 years of Generation X, reach this age (these figures do not include immigrants as first-generation immigrants do not generally purchase new vehicles).

Harley-Davidson is one of the most recognizable brands in the world, but it’s an iconic Baby Boomer brand, and one that children of Boomers are showing great reluctance to adopt.  And while the company’s executives point to the economy as the reason behind its sales woes, it is obvious that the younger generations are not so enamored with the brand.  Noted motorcycle analyst Donald J. Brown said most of the company’s problems are independent of the economic downturn, and cited the lack of HD’s appeal to younger motorcycle riders as a primary reason behind declining sales.  He added that Generation Y has been a big fan of smaller, 125 cc-size bikes, which has been one of the fastest growing segments of the U.S. motorcycle market since 1999.

[st ryder]

Interesting speculation, but even HD mgmt is aware that they have real concerns with an aging demographic.  Boomers are the group that see HD as an icon, and they are aging.  Why do you think HD is now building factory trikes?  There will always be younger folks that are interested in HD, but those numbers have diminished over the years.  This isn't just opinion.  HD mgmt know this, they have even published this information.

http://investor.harley-davidson.com/demographics.cfm?bmLocale=en_us

Median age increasing by 6 months every year, is ALARMING by industry standards.

I apologize for introducing facts into this discussion.

This is considered common knowledge by industry experts.
http://www.brandchannel.com/features_effect.asp?pf_id=55
"...However, there is no overstating the demographic challenges that the company faces going forward. The average age of a Harley rider is now 45 (ten years ago it was 37), and 20% of Harley riders are over 55. In spite of all the company's success in the past 18 years, Harley has had a difficult time attracting younger consumers, who tend to gravitate to the speedier, more technologically savvy racing bikes produced by Honda and Yamaha.

Underscoring Harley's dearth in the younger demographic is the fact that Honda recently usurped Harley in US sales; Honda is now not only the number one manufacturer globally, but it is currently the king of the prestigious US market largely because of its appeal to younger riders..."

I don't see any definitive fact above, just more statements. Remember, HD didn't end up being the only American motorcycle company to survive due to boomers. This whole boomer thing is a red herring IMO. Sure, they bought a lot of HD's, but they bought a lot of other bikes too, so everybody's customer base is declining, not just HD's. Wille G said it best a number of years ago when asked about the challenge of metric crusiers, ie "They get 'em ready for a HD." If you want to discount my experience with youths as nonfactual, I'd suggest going to any high school right now, and stand in fron of any class, and ask them, "What's your favorite motorcycle?" and you'll hear how many prefer HD. But, like I mentioned in an earlier post, most young folks can't afford to buy HD, it's not that they don't want HD, and once ensnared in the bang for buck, "my bike's faster than yours" mind set, it takes them a while to appreciate what HD has to offer, but many young people do buy them if they have the money. Of my daughters friends who have bikes for the past 5 years, none of them have a Japanese sport bike, they all have HD's. She turned 28 this year.

Oh, and as I mentioned, no discussion of the future of any motorcycle segment can be complete without including women, or the "cross over" buyer who seeks to "move up" from rice burners.  

Harley hating peeps have lined up wringing their hands together in delight, predicting the collapse of HD for decades now. Sorry to disappoint, but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. There will be a contraction, that's certain. But, that's about the economy, not the product.  

[Tpoppa]

It's hard for repeatable, factual market research to compete with a trip to the local high school  

While your at that high school, take a quick look around the parking lot.  How many Harleys do you see?  Teens don't equal dollars.  When those teens reach buying age those dollars become real.  And that has been where HD has struggled.  Again, not opinion.  These are verifiable facts.

[Schneegz]

Harley hating peeps have lined up wringing their hands together in delight, predicting the collapse of HD for decades now. Sorry to disappoint, but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. There will be a contraction, that's certain. But, that's about the economy, not the product.  

You keep bringing up this red herring, but nobody here is predicting Harley's demise, only a continued contraction as their customers age and essentially are not replaced by younger buyers.  

The average age of Harley owners is increasing steadily; that's a fact.  It's already at 45 and climbing.  That's a fact.  Yes, the average age of motorcyclists in general is also increasing.  That is also a fact.  The difference is that the average age of other motorcycle manufacturers' customers is lower than Harley's, which means they're in a better position to attract younger buyers.  A major reason they're able to do that is that they have a diverse range of motorcycles.  Harley doesn't, and probably never will.

[st ryder]

It's hard for repeatable, factual market research to compete with a trip to the local high school  

While your at that high school, take a quick look around the parking lot.  How many Harleys do you see?  Teens don't equal dollars.  When those teens reach buying age those dollars become real.  And that has been where HD has struggled.  Again, not opinion.  These are verifiable facts.

I think the issue being discussed here was that Harleys doesn't attract younger buyers because of the product. I disagree with that. I state it's beacuse of the costs/price, and that one only needs to speak with young people to hear that they are attracted to the HD product. Harleys cost a lot of money, otherwise young people would but them in greater numbers IMO. I also go on to say that these young people who are attracted to the HD product, will aspire to own one, just as boomers did. HD will keep it's market share of a smaller market.

Oh, and teens equal huge amounts of dollars, or don't you watch TV?

[st ryder]

You keep bringing up this red herring, but nobody here is predicting Harley's demise, only a continued contraction as their customers age and essentially are not replaced by younger buyers.  

The average age of Harley owners is increasing steadily; that's a fact.  It's already at 45 and climbing.  That's a fact.  Yes, the average age of motorcyclists in general is also increasing.  That is also a fact.  The difference is that the average age of other motorcycle manufacturers' customers is lower than Harley's, which means they're in a better position to attract younger buyers.  A major reason they're able to do that is that they have a diverse range of motorcycles.  Harley doesn't, and probably never will.

Harley has a very wide range of models. They are all premium priced, American V-twin crusiers. Some with a performance slant, others with a touring slant, and others with a custom slant. No dirt bikes, no sport bikes. Those young kids who buy rice burning dirt bikes and sport bikes and cruiser bikes will need to graduate to "nicer" bikes at some point. It's human nature IMO. Look at all the boomers who bought Japanese bikes in the 70's, who then "crossed over" to HD later on especially with the booming economy. I personally knew of a few that even though they had decent metric cruisers, eventally bought HD nonetheless. If cross over buying has been going on for decades with boomers, why will that change for non-boomers? (I mean my first ride on a motorcycle as a pillion was on a Suzuki, as a rider on a Yamaha) HD is an aspirational product for "people who ride bikes." Not all of them, but if they're into motorcycling in a big way, HD will be on the list.  

Take the focus off attracting youth buyers, and widen it a bit to include women and cross over buyers and you'll see HD's future is as secure as the next guy's. They will keep their market share of a smaller pie. The red herring I'm talking about is the thought that other brands will steal HD's future clients. No, they just get them ready for HD like Willie G. said.  

[Tpoppa]

The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. --Stephen Hawking

[Baz]

I think the issue being discussed here was that Harleys doesn't attract younger buyers because of the product. I disagree with that. I state it's beacuse of the costs/price, and that one only needs to speak with young people to hear that they are attracted to the HD product. Harleys cost a lot of money, otherwise young people would but them in greater numbers IMO. I also go on to say that these young people who are attracted to the HD product, will aspire to own one, just as boomers did. HD will keep it's market share of a smaller market.

Oh, and teens equal huge amounts of dollars, or don't you watch TV?

I can't speak for all demographic areas but can tell you that at our local bike nights, there is very little interest in HD in the under 30 crowd. It is virtually non existant in the under 20 crowd.  

In fact I overhear more pirate jokes about old posers on their geiser machines from the under 30 crowd at bike night, than I do on STN.

And that is amazing!  

[Schneegz]

Harley has a very wide range of models.

In what alternative universe?  

[Brad1445]

The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. --Stephen Hawking

Yet you bought a new Buell??????????????????????????????????

[Brad1445]

Harley will survive and will be here long after any of us posting here have passed away.