Lets smoke this over..

[BACKMARKER]

I think that H-D closing down Buell is just a marketing ploy to dump all the old buell stock with out losing face by implementing huge rebates to move them as other bike manufactures (Honda) have done.  When you have to put out big rebates every other year just to sell your bikes it looks very bad to your customer base.  H-D by closing Buell is able to sell the old stock this way and nobody thinks anything about it.  I give it two years and H-D will restart Buell with a clean slate and just look at the FREE press they will get....

[chornbe]

No.

[squeezer]

Uh-uh. The costs of restarting could never be offset by even the most optimistic sales forecast.

[falconati]

 

[Brad1445]

I think that H-D closing down Buell is just a marketing ploy to dump all the old buell stock with out losing face by implementing huge rebates to move them as other bike manufactures (Honda) have done.  When you have to put out big rebates every other year just to sell your bikes it looks very bad to your customer base.  H-D by closing Buell is able to sell the old stock this way and nobody thinks anything about it.  I give it two years and H-D will restart Buell with a clean slate and just look at the FREE press they will get....

My belive is close.

I think the Buell name has too much mud on it.

Harley needs to grow a full line of bikes like BMW and Triumph have.  I think thats where we will see the bikes reappear, hopefully with a closer eye to style and quality.


The name Buell now has to much luggage and bad press to fight a relaunch. Harley sport and dual sport bikes would be easier to train sales force and service techs on also.

[scottzilla]

Disagree.  The Buell name is viable right now.  Bottom line is Buell started with zero customers and earned 3% of HD's sales.
Buell had done as good a job attracting new buyers as it could.  Think about it, the Japanese offerings are basically interchangable (Similar prices, similiar styles, similar "Ride") and really, the only mfg's to convert people over to their brand are Triumph and Buell (Lesser extent BMW).  Many people dug the XB line and the Uly actually got some new customers for them.
The name is viable, but will become less so over time.

[chornbe]

I agree the name could be just fine as a brand.  

I believe that under no circumstance will Harley reignite that particular flame.  

[scottzilla]

I agree the name could be just fine as a brand.  

I believe that under no circumstance will Harley reignite that particular flame.  

I agree and agree with your agreement.

[bomber]

Buell would succeed as a brand.

HD will not bring it back.

HD has never been a full line manufacturer -- there's no reason to expect them to change than now. Especially now. They narrowed their focus so they could spend all the money and energy on what they do best -- diluting that effort, these days, would be stupid.

HDI is not stupid.

[falconati]

^^^ I agree.  As much as I would love to see them produce a full line of motorcycles, if their executives are intelligent, they won't.  Harley needs to stick to what they do best: make premium cruisers, accessories, and clothing.  They have a nice following and margin, so I have no idea why anybody would want to 'rattle that cage' (one of my favorite phrases I picked up at IBM).

[chornbe]

^^^ I agree.  As much as I would love to see them produce a full line of motorcycles, if their executives are intelligent, they won't.  Harley needs to stick to what they do best: make premium cruisers, accessories, and clothing.  They have a nice following and margin, so I have no idea why anybody would want to 'rattle that cage' (one of my favorite phrases I picked up at IBM).

... or rag on Harley for doing it better than anyone else. "it" being all of it as a marketing entity. Honda et al sells more bikes, but they only WISH they had the market chops Harley has.

Hey, I'd have bought Honda shirts hats and jackets when I was a Honda devotee... ya know... if they had anything.

At all.

[Brad1445]

Disagree.  The Buell name is viable right now.  Bottom line is Buell started with zero customers and earned 3% of HD's sales.
Buell had done as good a job attracting new buyers as it could.  Think about it, the Japanese offerings are basically interchangable (Similar prices, similiar styles, similar "Ride") and really, the only mfg's to convert people over to their brand are Triumph and Buell (Lesser extent BMW).  Many people dug the XB line and the Uly actually got some new customers for them.
The name is viable, but will become less so over time.

Notice you only mention XB bikes as the achievement.  You seem not to mention the last three years of bad press of the 1125 series.  

Think of it this way.  You take your wife to this great restaurant
- the atmosphere is perfect
- the food is awesome
- the service impeccable
- everything is perfect but as the waitress walks away after giving you change from the bill bill the last thing she does is involuntary fart at your table.

I guarantee you the the thing you will remember most of that dinner is the fart.

[scottzilla]

Notice you only mention XB bikes as the achievement.  You seem not to mention the last three years of bad press of the 1125 series.  

Think of it this way.  You take your wife to this great restaurant
- the atmosphere is perfect
- the food is awesome
- the service impeccable
- everything is perfect but as the waitress walks away after giving you change from the bill bill the last thing she does is involuntary fart at your table.

I guarantee you the the thing you will remember most of that dinner is the fart.

Contrary to your opinion, the 1125 line did not cause the demise of Buell.
Basic math proves i'm correct.

[Brad1445]

So selling bikes at $5,000 is your business model?

[scottzilla]

So selling bikes at $5,000 is your business model?

My tolerence for you is getting thin.
 

[falconati]

If you're making them for about that much cost, why not?  You could be a volume manufacturer.

[Brad1445]

My tolerence for you is getting thin.
 

and I care........ why?



I think I have paid enough dollars into the Buell machine to speak about them openly and honestly.

[macdiver]

Warning, off topic rant.

I think I have paid enough dollars into the Buell machine to speak about them openly and honestly.

I think everyone gets that you did not like the 1125.  You are right that most of the early press reviews complained about the fueling issues.  These were eventually fixed.  Yes it did take a several attempts to get the efi program right but they did fix it.  There have been other issues but no more than any other engine that started from a clean sheet of paper.  The reviews just before Buel closed were all positive.

In other posts you have listed the Book of Buell as a marketing mistake esp. cubing the blast.  Go back and re-read it from the perspective that Mr. Buell would have known that Buell was on the chopping block as the ads were developed and to me and others it becomes a clear "fuck you" to harley.  Harley still has the blast and will continue the blast so they can do rider edge so cube it and say it was never a bike the Buell wanted.  Also, point out that these bikes were meant to be ridden aggressively not shown off at bars by pirates.  Read between the l ines.  The "book of Buell" was a response to Buell being closed down not one of the mistakes that led to it being closed.

HD is in serious financial trouble due to bad loans.  The management had to shown they were taking action by cutting Buell to "turn around the business" by "focusing on the core business".  This is an oft repeated phrase when companies cut divisions to show action to get more credit.    

I agree that the pods are ugly but the 1125's were selling as well as any other Buell during a time that motorcycles are not selling.  

Let go of your hatred for Buell, you will feel better.

[chornbe]

I think everyone gets that you did not like the 1125.  You are right that most of the early press reviews complained about the fueling issues.  These were eventually fixed.  Yes it did take a several attempts to get the efi program right but they did fix it.  There have been other issues but no more than any other engine that started from a clean sheet of paper.  The reviews just before Buel closed were all positive.

Right. Typical Rev-1 stuff. Some MFGs *still* have those issues after years of production and refinement. If every manufacturer got the fueling right, there wouldn't even BE a PowerCommander or FuelPak. BMWs had surging issues for years. FJRs had a couple of years with surging and flat spots. Honda's FI while smooth, has ZERO off-idle transition even now. It's 0, then 10%-100%.

[st ryder]

I think Buell is a very marketable brand. I think they have definitely carved out a well ensconced "niche" in the psyche of motorcyclists over the past 15-20 years. No reason to think Buell as a brand will fade away and no reason to think Buell the "industry" will die anytime soon. I see them as legendary bikes given time, like some Brit, American, Italian steel is now. Like bevel drive Ducatis, or air head BMW's that have a rabid following even though their manufactures are still more than viable today. Look at motorcycles like Norton and BSA, and Vincent and Indian and Laverda and Gilera and etc etc etc, all have a world wide "industry" to support their respective aficionados. No reason to think the Buell brand will not enjoy the same "success."  

[Brad1445]

In other posts you have listed the Book of Buell as a marketing mistake esp. cubing the blast.  Go back and re-read it from the perspective that Mr. Buell would have known that Buell was on the chopping block as the ads were developed and to me and others it becomes a clear "fuck you" to harley.  Harley still has the blast and will continue the blast so they can do rider edge so cube it and say it was never a bike the Buell wanted.  Also, point out that these bikes were meant to be ridden aggressively not shown off at bars by pirates.  Read between the l ines.  The "book of Buell" was a response to Buell being closed down not one of the mistakes that led to it being closed.

..........
I agree that the pods are ugly but the 1125's were selling as well as any other Buell during a time that motorcycles are not selling.  

.............

I understand your defensive posture I would too if I woke up one morning finding out the bike in my garage had dropped in value in one day as the Manufactures name is now equated to a two wheeled Edsel.

FYI

- The Lightning series was still the number one selling Buell Ulysses was #2

- The book of Buell. Your saying it was to bite the hand that feeds you?  Gratitude?  Keep in mind never the good bikes the XB's  would never have happened without Harley $$$$$$ Smart move?

- Telling Blast paying customers thier bike is worth the value of an end table? Smart Move? Huge Marketing no-no.

- Ask most ANYONE in the biking world what the current reputation is surrounding the latest Buell bike.  I'm speaking of the 1125 the one with the $5,000 rebate vs only $3,000 on the XB models that had with consumer respect.

I dont have hatred, I have pragmatism, and a lot of disappointment.  I waited for this bike for years.
Maybe a little hatred as if your best friend committed suicide you would be angry at that person for such a stupid move.  
Harley would not have killed Buell if they were selling like a correctly built water cooled Rotax powered Buell should have been received with just a little forethought and quality control on Buells part.  Take some pride in your work for gods sake.

I continued to buy Buells even even in 2008 thinking they would continue to work on the 1125 but had the foresight to sell it as soon as the 2010 models were released as the writing was on the wall there was no future for Buell  

Harley had no choice.  The dogs were not eating the food and yet they rolled the dog bowl out for a third year?

My selling my 08 Firebolt  two months before Harley said enough is enough saved me $2,000 in lost value.

I work in marketing, very heavily in design.  Yes I was disappointed with Buells dropping the ball on the dream bike.  
Rotax should sue for defamation but now there is no money.

[falconati]

I think it's so hilarious that you think the Buell cube ads were a bad marketing stunt.  I laughed really hard when I saw the first print ad, and I went to their website.  Prior to viewing that ad, I had never ever considered a Buell.

Their ads never said the bike was shitty, they said that Buell was going to be a premiere sportbike brand, and that the Blast simply didn't cut it in terms of performance.  There was no slight to Blast owners.  I really don't understand, and don't agree with your assessment of the marketing.

[Brad1445]

Go to thumper talk and see how the Blast Customers feel.  I'm not writing the news I'm reporting.  It hurt a lot of owners feelings.  

That bike is what brought many into the Buell fold to start with.

Little is to be gained in marketing by saying what you did in the past was wrong.  Just tell us why what you have now is awesome!

[chornbe]

Go to thumper talk and see how the Blast Customers feel.  I'm not writing the news I'm reporting.  It hurt a lot of owners feelings.  

That bike is what brought many into the Buell fold to start with.

Little is to be gained in marketing by saying what you did in the past was wrong.  Just tell us why what you have now is awesome!

I'm actually thinking of picking one up to teach the kids on.

[Brad1445]

I'm actually thinking of picking one up to teach the kids on.

They are cool little bikes and can do highway speed no problem, sound good and look good.

[falconati]

But they're not sportbikes, which is what Buell said they wanted to produce.

Seriously, this is so basic that it hurts my mind to have to explain it to you.  I suppose this is why I work, not teach...

[Brad1445]

But they're not sportbikes, which is what Buell said they wanted to produce.

Seriously, this is so basic that it hurts my mind to have to explain it to you.  I suppose this is why I work, not teach...

Your right, thats why Buell's focus and advertising dollars should have been effectively spent on teh future not the past.

[chornbe]

Buell is closed.

I tell ya, I wanna bash the shit out of Oldsmobile and Plymoth, too. Don't even get me started on Yugo.

[Brad1445]

You had a love affair with Yugo?

[chornbe]

Point being, Buell is gone. Let it go.

[bomber]

Brad

There wasn't a Buell line that DIDN'T launch with problems.

Serious ones.

Problems that no other manufacturer would have allowed to reach the customer.

They survived, inspite of that, due to great marketing (do not spend 15 seconds listening to Erik Buell talk about anyting if you don't want to be swept up), bikes that were very innovative from an engineering and manufacturing standpoint, and, most important, bike that were just plain fun to ride -- more smiles per mile than anything else I've ever owned . . .

It wasn't just the Rotax line that started out with major problems -- each and every one did.

So start slagging  the Westwind series, Tubers, the first XB series, if you wish to be, as you call it, "open and honest."

If you just wish to continue to whine, enjoy yourself.

[Brad1445]

Brad

There wasn't a Buell line that DIDN'T launch with problems.

The bike was on its third year.

[bomber]

You really have to fnd another reason to live, dude. It's getting kinda sad.

[Brad1445]

You really have to fnd another reason to live, dude. It's getting kinda sad.

I believe Im in the right section of the forum and a proper thread to discuss where Buell is, how we got here and where it could go from here.  

It was my favorite manufacture, was it yours?

I have a race Buell banner in my garage, stickers on my car. Do you?

If you do not want hear me please put me on ignore and save your kleenex.

[scottzilla]

I am megafan 'cause I got a t-shirt.

[Brad1445]

I am megafan 'cause I got a t-shirt.

ha, The free shirt from a test ride?

Scott you been around you know I used to waved that Buell flag higher than anyone.  Yes I'm having trouble understanding how they screwed themselves almost seemingly on purpose.

I dont write the news I just report it.

[bomber]

Brad -- you switched from reporting to editorializing long ago.

I don't have a favorite manufacturer.

I don't have any stickers on my truck.

I'm not interested in participating in any "I'm more of a X than you because of Y," nor in comparing the number of t-shirts in our closets.

If you're interested,  I'm taking my Buell to Bonneville this year.

I don't need a tissue, thanks.

[Brad1445]

Thats nice

The threads first Poster said

I think that H-D closing down Buell is just a marketing ploy to dump all the old buell stock with out losing face by implementing huge rebates to move them as other bike manufactures (Honda) have done.  When you have to put out big rebates every other year just to sell your bikes it looks very bad to your customer base.  H-D by closing Buell is able to sell the old stock this way and nobody thinks anything about it.  I give it two years and H-D will restart Buell with a clean slate and just look at the FREE press they will get....

[bomber]

LOL -- take care, Brad.

[chornbe]

I can empathize with how Brad feels.

I had many, MANY issues with a complete lemon of a bike from Kawasaki. The laundry list of what broke, fell off, was poorly assembled and just generally was manufactured horribly was longer than what *didn't* break on the bike. I'm barely exaggerating.

As a smart, informed, mechanically proficient consumer, I was disgusted and appalled at how I was treated when I took the bike back in for service. I was told everything from "we won't cover that" to "you must have broken it". The dealer and Kawasaki both decided that *I* was the problem with the bike. I owned the bike for ~3 months, I put 6900 miles on it in that time. The bike spent a collective total of about 6 weeks in the shop (warranty). At the end I walked away from that experience HAPPY to take a $3000 loss on trading the bike in just to get out from under it, promising to never set foot in that dealer ever again and never spending a dime of my hard-earned money supporting Kawasaki in any fashion.

After making a living as a professional mechanic, and having more mechanical talent and understanding than any three guys scratching their heads in the shop, I was insulted and disgusted at this treatment, from a supposedly reputable dealer and from a world-class manufacturer.

It took me years to back off on the stand against Kawasaki, and as far I'm concerned that dealership's service department and management can end up living under a bridge in a cardboard box and I'll feel nothing but satisfaction.

I get why Brad's upset. I do. I really do. But like me and Kawasaki, there comes a time to let it go. Brad's time hasn't come yet. Hell, I even *seriously* considered buying a Versys recently (and yes, my previous issues *DID* help color my decision a little). Brad will get there.

Now it's time for us to just let it go and let Brad rag on.

[Brad1445]

lol, thank you LuvMyGirlster

I still say nice things about the XB bikes and don' dump in the I just bought a 1125 threads

I don't want to "rag on".  I just wish the ball was not dropped on such fun bikes.  I have no choice but to send ALL my bike money over seas.  No American made choices?  And it was avoidable.

[chornbe]

I'm all for trading war stories.  

Just, please, no more pod pictures, ok? Fair deal?  

[falconati]

To 'rag on,' must you be 'on the rag?'  Maybe that's part of the problem.

oh, and


 

[chornbe]

Ya know... that is aggressive and beautiful from that view.  

[bomber]

ROFLMAO!

[atadaskew]

Ya know... that is aggressive and beautiful from that view.  

Only because the pic shows only 1/3rd of the pod on the right hand side..

 

[OldBob]

I do think the air-cooled Buells will become "cult bikes."  The Lightnings I've ridden were fun.  If I didn't already have more bikes than garage space, I would buy one.

In ten years, I will wish I had bought one when they were inexpensive.

Bob

[Brad1445]

I do think the air-cooled Buells will become "cult bikes."  The Lightnings I've ridden were fun. ....

Bob

+1